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If Voidrays weren't enough, now I see more and more Platinum Protoss players going for Phoenix build to lift off key units and pick off any ground units with Zealots and Stalkers. Because I scout his Stargate, I am forced to opt for Starport to get Vikings fast, and when I see Phoenix (which wins against Vikings in equal numbers btw) I am baffled to know what kind of unit compositions are needed with my 1/1/1 production buildings.
For obvious reason I can't go for Marauders and Tanks because they will be lifted off first and get died easily by Stalkers. I've tried Thors but they kill off Phoenix too slowly. Unlike Mutalisk, Phoenix has more HP and does not stack well so the splash damage from Thor is minimal. This leaves my ground army (usually Marines and a few Hellions) to be destroyed by Zealots and Stalkers. I could let Thor to attack ground army first, but 1 or 2 Thors' firepower isn't enough to kill all ground armies. Hellions will also get lifted off and usually Vikings and Marines do not have enough DPS to kill Phoenixes fast; leaving Stalkers to kill off my lifted units relatively quickly, and even though I take out all Phoenixes, all I have now are Vikings which then lose to Stalkers.
So the problem is, presence of Stargate forces me to have 1 rax, 1 fact, and 1 starport because I needed to get Vikings and Marines fast for possible Voidrays. Protoss then abuses this unit composition and go heavy ground units and 3 or 4 Phoenixes to lift off key units. Even if I see the first Phoenix scouting, I can't stop producing Vikings and Marines because toss can always produce Voidrays.
So is there any viable counter to Phoenix + Gateway units?
EDIT: Here is the replay because the thread was locked before. This thread was supposed to be discussion not help though..
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I feel P excels in 1 base situations like this because they can simply build MORE than a T can on 1 base. They get their econ to full saturation far before T can whilst teching/building a ground force, etc. I'm pretty convinced there are more nerfs coming for P in the future.
But all that aside: I've had success using bunkers. Phoenixes can't lift units they can't target. That in conjunction with sneaking an expo with a PF and/or going really fast cloaked banshee can be extremely effective.
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yep, you just said every counter there is. Mainly the 1/1/1 aka raven opening. reactored marines, viking production, and accumulate tanks/hellions.
I have played versus this phoenix build a lot now, and I can tell you that the protoss is going to be going heavy zealots a majority of the time when he keeps accumulating phoenix/void rays.
so keep up viking production, and marine production, as well as tanks, and get a second fact and switch it to your reactor for igniter hellions and push out. Around that timing Protoss will usually have their natural just getting up and running -> which you will kill 
it's not so easy as I make it sound (lol) but that is the general idea. And never leave your base too early, or you're going to be phoenix backstabbed and lose like 10+ scvs
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Each phoenix costs the Protoss 150/100, which is a pretty hefty investment. I feel that adding another barracks and using a primary infantry army with a smattering of vikings should hold up pretty well. Depending on your opponent's stalker count, you can either choose to make hellions out of your factory or not.
If your opponent has enough phoenix to actually pose a significant danger to your vikings, abuse their superior range and keep your vikings tucked safely away above your marines, which will obliterate the phoenixes if they choose to engage. Keep in mind that during any fight, if the phoenix is lifting anything less than a siege tank, it's a less than favorable trade-off of resources for the Protoss.
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Just destoryed this build using my tank rine thor build. Thors plus a reactor rax pumping marines is very effcient vs any stargate play. The thors range is just like a viking, so as long as you keep your rines close by you have great anti air. This all done with a wall off as well to help prevent the gateway units getting in. From there on I do an engineering bay with turrets and an expo. The trick to beating air is to play defenseive and then push out when the time is right. The second OC helps so much with scans as you can keep tabs on their army size to help you determine when you can push out.
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You can try Gretorp's Marine/Ghost opening. EMP makes the Phoenixes wasted food against a ground army, as well as softening up his Gateway units. Make a couple bunkers at your choke if needed, and turrets by your mineral line if he tries to fly by.
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Hmm, I guess I need to play defensively with bunkers and accumulate enough hellions, marines, and tanks to the point where few phoenixes are ineffective to my biomech composition...
I don't want toss to give out too much map control though. =/ Hellion harass ftw I guess.
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some people have problems dealing with air units.. moving all of your units in one control group is almost always the cause of this problem.
think about how you should be playing better, not which counter units to make
what does a good protoss player do when you attack with banshees (better at both harass and engaging ground armies)? try to watch replays of how they control their ground units.
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Braavos36379 Posts
Thread is now unlocked, replay in OP.
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On May 21 2010 15:05 Hot_Bid wrote:
Thread is now unlocked, replay in OP.
ty Hot_Bid
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it's good to get a ghost to EMP the phoenix so they have no mana, thus they can't lift off anything,
and if they have something lifted - it will cancel that.
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Get a few turrets up, take your natural, and throw down a few bunkers. The phoenix+gateway army excels in open areas, but it's not particularly useful for attacking a terran hardpoint. From my experience using the build, I've never seen a terran match my forces pound for pound in the early game and I've always been able to take early map control. Just play it safe until you're able to get your tech and macro online. Phoenixes become less effective as the terran army grows. Also, if the protoss player invests too much into phoenixes, then he'll be delaying his HT/colossi tech, which he'll eventually need to fight your army.
You can try using hellions against the protoss because his army will be zealot heavy, but they'll get lifted by smart protoss players.
In summary, if you push out too early against a protoss who uses phoenixes+gateway units, you're going to have a bad day. Be patient, take your natural, and push out when you have a more sizeable force.
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Bunker up and 2 base BC + viking with raven support, im not shitting you it always works.
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If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. Also they are not especially weak against the other gateway units.
oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields
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first the void ray is to imba now the phoenix ... cant wait until terra complains about the mothership being to strong.
Maybe you terrans should play more and whine less. At first even the high tier terran complain about void rays like they are the ultimate weapon of doom. After figuiring out how to counter them even Frozenarbiter stated they were fine the way they are.
I mean seriously you have hands down the strongest Anti Air with Thor and viking... what else do you need.
I'm sure I get a ban for this but sometimes you just gotta state the obvious...
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields
Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army.
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On May 22 2010 00:06 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army.
disagree, thors can fight the protoss army just fine, and you only need 1 or 2 thor in order to counter 5-6 phoenix.
marine/thor/hellion should take out a zealot/sentry/phoenix army just fine in the early game. If you opened with the 1/1/1 build you should also have a raven that you can use to cast PDD as well, with some vikings on the way.
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On May 22 2010 00:04 deo.deo wrote:
first the void ray is to imba now the phoenix ... cant wait until terra complains about the mothership being to strong.
Maybe you terrans should play more and whine less. At first even the high tier terran complain about void rays like they are the ultimate weapon of doom. After figuiring out how to counter them even Frozenarbiter stated they were fine the way they are.
I mean seriously you have hands down the strongest Anti Air with Thor and viking... what else do you need.
I'm sure I get a ban for this but sometimes you just gotta state the obvious...
I'm not sure the OP was crying imba as you suggest, but like louder said, sometimes it can be difficult to match a 1 base toss on one of your own. Most T won't enjoy giving up map control, and I think this leads them to make pushes at the wrong time. Without looking at the long term options for that game, they'll say, "I couldnt have had any more X or Y or Z units, this is the strongest push I had and it gets beat every time!" When really you should just acknowledge that means it was probably a bad timing.
I'm only gold atm, but I've had a ridiculous amount of success vs toss using the 1rax->FE->4rax+Fact. Make sure to build 2 or 3 bunkers at your nat, even if you walled off decent toss will know when to push as your OC is landing. Also, dont do this on a map with backdoor destructible rocks... lol.. I make that mistake too much.
If he's building an army you just cant beat at X minutes into the game, best option is to build an econ he wont be able to match and learn how to fend off the push (much like most terrans now do vs VR rush)
:edit: also, tossing up a ghost academy after you get the 4 rax up and planting a ghost near your mineral line ( you can actually hide him behind a barracks or maybe even the OC) is an awesome way to nullify the massive scv rape-age from the phoenixes. But honestly thats just a minor inconvenience when your on 2 bases with mules, the mules should be able to cover for most of the lost econ till you get more scvs built and maybe a turret or two.
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On May 22 2010 00:18 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army. disagree, thors can fight the protoss army just fine, and you only need 1 or 2 thor in order to counter 5-6 phoenix. marine/thor/hellion should take out a zealot/sentry/phoenix army just fine in the early game. If you opened with the 1/1/1 build you should also have a raven that you can use to cast PDD as well, with some vikings on the way.
One thor might kill one or two phoenixes during the entire fight becase phoenixes have so much hp. If you wait to push out with two thors and a raven, you won't be in the early game anymore (unless you heavily cut your other units and upgrades, in which case you're screwed anyway) and the protoss will already have expanded and be macroing a large gateway army. Marines by themselves won't do crap against zealots that are covered by guardian shield.
Also, the PDD is not going to help that much. The point of the phoenix isn't necessarily to do damage to the terran army. The point is that the phoenix can disable key terran units, thereby allowing the gateways units (predominantly the zealot mass) to engage the terran army.
The better play for the terran is to play the macro game and expand. Competing on one base against a protoss isn't going to go well.
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When I use phoenixes I only have trouble if the terran has lots of marines/turrets/bunkers.
Lifting a marine is just inneffective for its cost and energy.
To compensate this Protoss players usually pump out zealots.
The hardest thing for me as a Protoss player would be if I faced a terran player who had lots of marines mixed with tanks/ghosts/vikings/ravens.
Not sure if the pdd works against the phoenixes (I think they do) but the phoenixes won't be effective then
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Only early stage are they effective if you as a terran player going for mm&m. But normally you should have scouted the Protoss player to build some turrets and then turtle for a bit to make vikings or ghosts which is so annoying to be honest (no energy and no shields).
It's amazing though because I still get stomped by mm&m 5 min pushes which I won't have my phoenixes out yet. 1-2 marauders with 3-4 marines are still hard if u got only few zealots and a stalker and 1 sentry.
So I think it's almost always a good thing if u push as soon as u can get 2-4 marines and 1-2 marauders with concussive shells to check up / harass the protoss player and affect the economy. When terrans do this to me I have a really hard time to counter this and most of the time lose.
Protoss needs 2 phoenixes to harass your mineral line and that would mean you let the Protoss build his Stargate and finish his phoenixes.
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EPT
