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On May 04 2010 04:24 ploy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:14 Deathwizard77 wrote:On May 04 2010 04:11 ploy wrote:
Nerf everything in this game thats good.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break. Hmm defilers, Tier 3, Storm Tier 3, By the time you got Critical mass of mech Tier 3. Not seeing where your different times where. Yes if you rushed Tier 3 it would be different timing, but that could be done on the opposite. ZvT standard openings: 1) Both races fast expand, terran gains map control as soon as medics come out and can pressure Z a little bit forcing him to make a couple sunkens/lings. 2) Mutas come out and swing map control 100% back to zerg, where zerg can take his 3rd while harassing T and forcing him to stay in his base while tech switching to lurkers so he can eventually fight in straight up battles. 3) Science vessel comes out and map control swings back to terran. Zerg must delay terran's movement as much as possible and defend his 3rd and be very careful about drops. Terran takes 3rd. 4) Defilers come out and now its time for terran to try to delay zerg's army as much as possible. Terran needs to start making several factories for tanks vs ultras/swarm. See the beautiful dynamic in ZvT's? It's all because of very powerful units coming out at different timings. In the end game a huge ball of vessels can totally rape and be overpowered vs a lesser zerg, but it is possible for zerg to do whatever it takes to keep the vessel count down. If we had replayed the progression of this matchup today we'd have all of these new people who just came to TL crying imbalance at every map control swing stage of the game. First it'd be M&M too much dps when stimmed and hard to kill with lings/hydras. Then it'd be whining about how impossible it is to stop muta harass. Then it'd be how ridiculously powerful a big ball of science vessels can be. Then it'd be "omg how is it fair that zerg gets invulnerable units with swarm?" etc. etc.
There is one major thing your are lacking there. The timings are because of builds, meta game etc. However, The timings of Defiler or HT (not exactly) But close if both races went striaght for them, The timing of Irradiate and Swarm, very similiar. Builds may not make them at the same time hence creating the back and forth. However, the actually physicaly timings are similar. Currently EMP counter would be feedback if not storm in PvT. Hence the timing of Early Tier 2, (rax, (yes depot will be made but theoretically like in the Reaper rush build it could be made during hte making of barracks does not have to be made first so is not considered in timing. Pylon is required to be made first) So rax, techlab/ghost acadmey - ghost, Pylong, gateway,core,2 tech buildigns, then HT. That timing is off. Not saying P is not favored in matchup but that timing deficit is IMO incorrect and for eventual perfect balance (after plenty of thigns on P and T both fixed) should be moved back.
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EMP can't be nerfed unless sentry's guardian shield and immortals are nerfed as well. Ghosts are the only thing that allows mech to even be built in T v P.
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EMP should not be nerfed again. Buff storm I suppose, but nerfing EMP into the ground would make ghost tech useless. It's already useless in 2/3 of the match ups, and trying to go MM without ghosts and EMP is impossible currently.
If EMP gets nerfed, how is terran supposed to handle the 4 warp gate timing push? EMP is terran's single ace-in-the-hole against early/mid game protoss aggression.
Is it really that hard for protoss just to back off after he gets his army EMP'd? The shields will regen if you let them  You don't have to suicide your half HP army into his ball after an EMP just to come to the forums to whine about it.
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lol nerf EMP what a joke, just feedback the ghost, EMP is the only thing that can 'save' a terran from Immortal push -_- so stop crying and play clever 
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On May 04 2010 04:25 Duelist wrote:
I agree that EMP should be nerfed. If we make the mean of the units' hp's and shields of an average protoss army, an EMP basically takes out 1/3 to 2/3 of it's total life points. I seriously don't know how some people consider that balanced.
Spreading out units is not pratical. On a battle besides the economy, but that applies to both players, the terran has nothing to do but micro the units. The protoss has not only to micro the units which for a protoss is even more critical due to high cost of their units, but also to think about all unit skills to use, if it's the time to use a storm, force fields, if and where to place them, etc. On top of that some people say that protosses should spread their army... seriously. if there was a button that automatically made that ok, but not manually no.
There is no doubt that EMP should be nerfed all that disagree just need to think a little more and put themselves in the protoss shoes a bit more.
This is really funny.
(I'm sorry to also not contribute to this thread but this post is so funny, it reminds me of the "I think it's no problem if the lurker isn't under the land" thread a while ago)
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On May 04 2010 04:24 ploy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:14 Deathwizard77 wrote:On May 04 2010 04:11 ploy wrote:
Nerf everything in this game thats good.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break. Hmm defilers, Tier 3, Storm Tier 3, By the time you got Critical mass of mech Tier 3. Not seeing where your different times where. Yes if you rushed Tier 3 it would be different timing, but that could be done on the opposite. ZvT standard openings: 1) Both races fast expand, terran gains map control as soon as medics come out and can pressure Z a little bit forcing him to make a couple sunkens/lings. 2) Mutas come out and swing map control 100% back to zerg, where zerg can take his 3rd while harassing T and forcing him to stay in his base while tech switching to lurkers so he can eventually fight in straight up battles. 3) Science vessel comes out and map control swings back to terran. Zerg must delay terran's movement as much as possible and defend his 3rd and be very careful about drops. Terran takes 3rd. 4) Defilers come out and now its time for terran to try to delay zerg's army as much as possible. Terran needs to start making several factories for tanks vs ultras/swarm. See the beautiful dynamic in ZvT's? It's all because of very powerful units coming out at different timings. In the end game a huge ball of vessels can totally rape and be overpowered vs a lesser zerg, but it is possible for zerg to do whatever it takes to keep the vessel count down. If we had replayed the progression of this matchup today we'd have all of these new people who just came to TL crying imbalance at every map control swing stage of the game. First it'd be M&M too much dps when stimmed and hard to kill with lings/hydras. Then it'd be whining about how impossible it is to stop muta harass. Then it'd be how ridiculously powerful a big ball of science vessels can be. Then it'd be "omg how is it fair that zerg gets invulnerable units with swarm?" etc. etc.
love player initiative swings, that's how the game should be and how all rts should be.
but again, that's not the case in PvT.
the game match opens with terran having the initiative, yes the reaper.
having the reaper fall, or not even being made, already puts the T in an economical advantage and/or tech if they choose to, that's fine, having to defend against a mobile unit. fine.
however not long after, the ghost comes out, terran gains initiative again, and this is not at the cost of too significant of your army, yes P can open with voidrays, but what is that, 4 marines and a turret to fend it off or limit the damage? mere marines will take out the toss's expo if there is one, but of course there will be marauders to even add on the hurt. it's not about terran holding on to the initiative through play, but through a single unit in consecutive time frames. so what to do? expo and not be able to fend it off because your army is locked down by ghosts or to turtle and give T map control and tech as high as you can whether it be storm or colossi.
the point is not that EMP rapes and there's no way around it, there is. but the fact that a ghost or two (which can be made fairly quickly) gives T full initiative again, after the ridiculous reaper opening. there is no swing in initiative, but toss having to deal and tank through full pressure of both an inefficient army due to EMP and deriving from that able to protect expos, and also deriving from that, the ability to limit opponent expos and army size. with the analogy of the "ball" being passed between players, terrans are naturally ball hoggers =O
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On May 04 2010 04:33 Origine wrote:lol nerf EMP what a joke, just feedback the ghost, EMP is the only thing that can 'save' a terran from Immortal push -_- so stop crying and play clever
ghost is faster than templars, templars are higher tier and slower to get, and move slower, EMP i believe is further range (need to be tested) EMP takes out energy just as feedback, but AOE
if you can ninja HT on the ghost, i appreciate you, but given they are so slow, it's just not very viable.
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What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting.
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On May 04 2010 04:33 Origine wrote:lol nerf EMP what a joke, just feedback the ghost, EMP is the only thing that can 'save' a terran from Immortal push -_- so stop crying and play clever
Wow, Feeback (as said earlier i have to check honestly I don't know off hand) has less range then EMP and takes almost twice the time to get out than EMP. If you read the thread there are several good reasons why this is not a valid counter midgame.
As for yes because without this Immortal push would be to strong, lets not fix this lets just leave 2 broken things rather then fixing both and making the game better. Great attitude.
Only thing that was a Joke was your post.
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On May 04 2010 04:31 link0 wrote:
EMP can't be nerfed unless sentry's guardian shield and immortals are nerfed as well. Ghosts are the only thing that allows mech to even be built in T v P.
I agree, well maybe not all of them at once, but I agree something needs to be changed on toss side, but again just because one imba thing counters other imba things, doesn't mean we should leave it. Lets fix it all.
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this thread is made once every two weeks with the same results quoted from page 1
terran: ff/hardened shield is op
protoss: emp is op
p.s. feedback outranges emp
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On May 04 2010 04:32 Meta wrote:EMP should not be nerfed again. Buff storm I suppose, but nerfing EMP into the ground would make ghost tech useless. It's already useless in 2/3 of the match ups, and trying to go MM without ghosts and EMP is impossible currently. If EMP gets nerfed, how is terran supposed to handle the 4 warp gate timing push? EMP is terran's single ace-in-the-hole against early/mid game protoss aggression. Is it really that hard for protoss just to back off after he gets his army EMP'd? The shields will regen if you let them You don't have to suicide your half HP army into his ball after an EMP just to come to the forums to whine about it.
Concussive shells pretty much means that even if P player pulls back half his army will decimated anyhow, especially if the marauders have stim as well, except it'll be closer to the entire P army.
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On May 04 2010 04:38 ploy wrote:
What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting.
I do believe 8 proxy rax is better fyi. On that though, it's ridiculous not because it can not be held off, but gives the toss currently 1 starting build. This will make a stagnant boring game.
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On May 04 2010 04:41 smore wrote:
this thread is made once every two weeks with the same results quoted from page 1
terran: ff/hardened shield is op
protoss: emp is op
p.s. feedback outranges emp
p.s. no it does not, EMP is an AoE which effectively makes it range 10, but nice try.
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On May 04 2010 04:38 ploy wrote:
What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting.
stalker does not incorporate into a counter to m/m/m fyi, and it forces you to 10~11 gate if you wish to proxy racks, it forces you to chronoboost your stalker instead of your probes, so yes all and all it does effect your build order very much. to fend off zealot rushes you merely need to make a barracks and marines, which you use, however stalkers are not effective against early midgame marauders, so how does this not effect build order again?
a damage to econ, and forcing a stalker, i think that changes the build order completely.
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On May 04 2010 04:41 smore wrote:
this thread is made once every two weeks with the same results quoted from page 1
terran: ff/hardened shield is op
protoss: emp is op
p.s. feedback outranges emp
Thank you for the feedback FYI i'm not at home so can't check. Even if you emp in front of HT still in EMP range though? If so distance is perfect
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for those that keep ranting about there are many similar threads regarding P v EMP, please, gtfo.
this thread is not to discuss how OP or effective EMP is against P, but the absence of initiative that passes between the players given there are possible reaper openings already.
and instead to be bitching and crying about EMP, there are strats here to hopefully deal with that better, and/or completely countering it. so no this thread is not here to ask for nerfs or buffs, but rather changes in timing of capabilities and/or mechanics
(honestly, 1 emp wants to suck all the shield away, fine, as long as i can deal with that in any possible way given the timeframe of which a ghost or 2 ghosts can drop their load)
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On May 04 2010 04:42 Conris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:38 ploy wrote:
What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting. stalker does not incorporate into a counter to m/m/m fyi, and it forces you to 10~11 gate if you wish to proxy racks, it forces you to chronoboost your stalker instead of your probes, so yes all and all it does effect your build order very much. to fend off zealot rushes you merely need to make a barracks and marines, which you use, however stalkers are not effective against early midgame marauders, so how does this not effect build order again? a damage to econ, and forcing a stalker, i think that changes the build order completely.
Uh the damage to econ is nothing compared to how much terran slowed down his econ to do the reaper rush in the first place. Secondly, building ONE stalker is not going to put you at a disadvantage just because he goes into marauders later (he delayed his marauders as well anyway). You can do standard 12 age vs proxy rax reapers and come out way ahead of terran does any kind barracks before depot build.
You're losing credibility fast if you think reaper rushes put terran ahead of the protoss.
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On May 04 2010 04:52 ploy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:42 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 04:38 ploy wrote:
What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting. stalker does not incorporate into a counter to m/m/m fyi, and it forces you to 10~11 gate if you wish to proxy racks, it forces you to chronoboost your stalker instead of your probes, so yes all and all it does effect your build order very much. to fend off zealot rushes you merely need to make a barracks and marines, which you use, however stalkers are not effective against early midgame marauders, so how does this not effect build order again? a damage to econ, and forcing a stalker, i think that changes the build order completely. Uh the damage to econ is nothing compared to how much terran slowed down his econ to do the reaper rush in the first place. Secondly, building ONE stalker is not going to put you at a disadvantage just because he goes into marauders later (he delayed his marauders as well anyway). You can do standard 12 age vs proxy rax reapers and come out way ahead of terran does any kind barracks before depot build. You're losing credibility fast if you think reaper rushes put terran ahead of the protoss.
no i'm not saying that a single reaper or two will let terran pull ahead.
i'm saying that with the availability of a fast reaper, toss is forced to do that one build order and prevents them from doing any heavy econ build. so it pretty much goes like this.
Game loads
Terran: ok banshee rush? 1rax expo? maybe try out bio again? rush ghost? marauder bust? hmm...
Protoss: ok i gota get that stalker out, yesterday
the game starts for protoss after the 1st stalker is out, and if reapers don't come, it's FORCED to run up to terran and try to zap something rather than just sit there and look pretty, it did cost 125/50.
but that's ok, because reaper is a cool unit and i personally really like it, however not long after the ghost is out, furthermore giving T the handle on the game, without doing anything whatsoever. that's what the issue is, there's nothing wrong with reapers other than that toss is forced to open the exact same way or they just might die 3 minutes into the game.
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Wether or the emp is overpowerd or not, you could argue the match up is kinda broken when the balance of entire match up basicly lies in a few good emps or a ghost snipe.
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EPT
