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On May 04 2010 02:59 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:52 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:47 Ghostcom wrote:On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote:
you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol
this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran
"I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable. Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time. no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button. So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed? This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it.
i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread...
as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter.
so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup.
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On May 04 2010 03:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
ADAM.1,
"you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol
this thread is fail, much like all the replicas.. "
Your response is fail, considering supply depots aren't part of the tech tree to ghosts and therefore don't need to be factored in to the time-order to ghosts.
Anyways, Conris...
I'm also a Protoss player, and it's really frustrating when Terrans rush Marine/Marauder with Ghosts. But that's because I recognize that I often clump my units too closely together, making the EMP devastating. If we split them up more, it would lessen the effects of EMP and we could get better surrounds on the Terran units. It's not that EMP is imbalanced; it's that we need to deal with it appropriately. I honestly think that EMP is all right AS IS. That includes energy cost, radius, and everything else.
Too many people rush to say "Unit X or Ability Y is imbalanced!" instead of reflecting on what they could possibly have done differently when encountering Unit X or Ability Y.
agreed, but as said before, if they choose to target sentries instead of zealots, and honestly if at a non choke you need 5~7 sentries to be able to be effective enough to push them back or break even, but with only 2~3 sentries functional, the encounter is almost a loss regardless.
do you split your sentries into 2 flanks? or does it hang back or comes in from another direction?
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Let me start off by saying currently I do think PvT is not balanced. I do believe Protoss is favored. I am at the top of Platnium so I am not some copper playing commenting on this.
That being said. I do believe the timing of EMP is off (currently gives terran a chance but once the match up is balanced it will need to be fixed). I do believe it should be researched even cheaply from the Ghost building with a decent research time. Probably should require a Factory like nuke. This will fix the timing of it and i'm not sure on range of feedback and emp but they should be equal or feedback having 1 more than emp. This being that way you could emp in front of HT and win the battle if your micro is good enough but if two straight clicks the feedback would win.
Again I do agree the overal PvT matchup favors P but that does not mean there is not issues with EMP. Thinking this or ignoring this will just mean once the other issues with the matchup are fixed (IMO immortals, reaper timing, tanks etc.) that then you'd have to go back and fix this because then it will be broken. Like current Reaper timing is stoppable (if your timing is good) by toss however, it limits toss openings to very few which I believe for the game is bad. Just because i named 2 issues with terran does not mean I don't know there are Toss issues somewhat greater that need to be fixed in the matchup also (like immortals making pure mech nearly impossible which is the staple pvt build in SC1).
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Conris,
"agreed, but as said before, if they choose to target sentries instead of zealots, and honestly if at a non choke you need 5~7 sentries to be able to be effective enough to push them back or break even, but with only 2~3 sentries functional, the encounter is almost a loss regardless.
do you split your sentries into 2 flanks? or does it hang back or comes in from another direction?"
Split up your sentries, obviously keep them in the back, and obviously try to get the FFs/GS up beforehand. (Setting up a flank early on is admittedly hard if you only have one base.) Also, don't engage in a wide open area that requires so many FFs. Try to catch them in a choke, so you can manage them with fewer energy spells. Also, feel free to push the game until you get robo units (or storm) to deal with bio as well :-)
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On May 04 2010 03:10 Deathwizard77 wrote:
Let me start off by saying currently I do think PvT is not balanced. I do believe Protoss is favored. I am at the top of Platnium so I am not some copper playing commenting on this.
That being said. I do believe the timing of EMP is off (currently gives terran a chance but once the match up is balanced it will need to be fixed). I do believe it should be researched even cheaply from the Ghost building with a decent research time. Probably should require a Factory like nuke. This will fix the timing of it and i'm not sure on range of feedback and emp but they should be equal or feedback having 1 more than emp. This being that way you could emp in front of HT and win the battle if your micro is good enough but if two straight clicks the feedback would win.
Again I do agree the overal PvT matchup favors P but that does not mean there is not issues with EMP. Thinking this or ignoring this will just mean once the other issues with the matchup are fixed (IMO immortals, reaper timing, tanks etc.) that then you'd have to go back and fix this because then it will be broken. Like current Reaper timing is stoppable (if your timing is good) by toss however, it limits toss openings to very few which I believe for the game is bad. Just because i named 2 issues with terran does not mean I don't know there are Toss issues somewhat greater that need to be fixed in the matchup also (like immortals making pure mech nearly impossible which is the staple pvt build in SC1).
your post makes me happy, and makes me realize i may have not been expressing myself clear enough regards to T's problem with P, i do realize your problems dealing with some P strats terran players (as i have repeatedly posted on the voidray rush and its effectiveness and the amount of micro needed to fend it off on T side)
and yes the reaper in PvT strat post as well, how the "ball" should be shifted between players as the game progresses as Day9 would say, but Terran starts with this "ball" at 6 workers and 50 minerals with 1 cc at 0:01 of the game, which is awkward imo.
yes T, toss HAS to get that chrono boost stalker out in any PvT match up which means gateway on 12 latest if you'd like to lose less than 3 probes even if it's not a proxy racks.
initiative roles switches between matchups when different units enter the field, or researches enter the field. as they have done for marauders, with a 50/50 concussive shell research, very cheap but it doesn't mean once those 2 or 3 marauders are out you automatically gain initiative, hence why P is able to push a little earlier due to the research, and that T pushes back hard after the research.
it doesn't make sense to throw down a building producing a gas heavy caster and immediately gain initiative overall. if P scouts and sees the fumes coming out of the ghost academy, they will be pressured to push before that EMP is done, so by simply throwing it down you've gained defensive initiative, and toss would have to push.
immortals 3 shot tanks, idk what else to say, 2 immortals and a couple of anything else with micro will fend off a large roach push or tanks from terran, so yes changes need to be made.
and EMP faces the same situation as well.
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On May 04 2010 03:07 Conris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:59 keV. wrote:On May 04 2010 02:52 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:47 Ghostcom wrote:On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote:
you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol
this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran
"I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable. Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time. no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button. So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed? This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it. i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup.
Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you.
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Do a lot of people in this thread not remember that EMP was already nerfed? It's radius dropped from 3 to 2, or more than 50% area reduction. It's hard to land good EMPs now, and moreover, once you land one it's completely useless. You can't kill anything with EMP, you need good support. All the protoss needs to do after EMP is back off for a little while.
Furthermore, 150 gas per ghost is ridiculously expensive. Not to mention going ghost delays factory, which delays starport/medivac support. If you see ghost you don't have to worry about banshees, which allows you a little more map control.
Finally, I know it's been mentioned 1000 times, but the simplest way to counter it is to spread your units. If you just a-move and let your units clump then it's going to do a lot more damage than it would have if you just selected a few units and moved them around. If you manually create a concave it's less likely that more than a few of your units will be hit per EMP and you'll have a positional advantage in any given fight.
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On May 04 2010 03:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Conris,
"agreed, but as said before, if they choose to target sentries instead of zealots, and honestly if at a non choke you need 5~7 sentries to be able to be effective enough to push them back or break even, but with only 2~3 sentries functional, the encounter is almost a loss regardless.
do you split your sentries into 2 flanks? or does it hang back or comes in from another direction?"
Split up your sentries, obviously keep them in the back, and obviously try to get the FFs/GS up beforehand. (Setting up a flank early on is admittedly hard if you only have one base.) Also, don't engage in a wide open area that requires so many FFs. Try to catch them in a choke, so you can manage them with fewer energy spells. Also, feel free to push the game until you get robo units (or storm) to deal with bio as well :-)
that makes me sad, T has the reign over where they want to fight, but i guess that's ok, just have to manage better, it's at times where T clusters lets say on Kulas Ravine, at the watch tower and i clearly have an advantage in pushing because i get the better arc, but an EMP destroys it.
i'll try splitting the sentries into 2 control groups separate from the zealots (currently zealots and sentries are separate) and see how that goes.
so i guess turtle a little and fend off drops until HT or simply outmass, i just died a little inside.
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Conris,
"so i guess turtle a little and fend off drops until HT or simply outmass, i just died a little inside."
Why is this bad? Are Terrans the only ones allowed to turtle? :-P And robo tech is great too. By the way, cannons are a fantastic help against bio as well, if you want to turtle :-)
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On May 04 2010 03:20 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 03:07 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:59 keV. wrote:On May 04 2010 02:52 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:47 Ghostcom wrote:On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote:
you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol
this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran
"I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable. Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time. no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button. So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed? This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it. i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup. Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you.
hmm i've actually gave a stalker heavy army a lot of thought, but given that ghosts are gas heavy and normally T rolls with 2~3, and the fact that there'd be techlabs instead of reactors for the ghosts, it's usually a marauder heavy army, though stalkers get that +4 on armored, it's fact that marauders rape stalkers. so i'm struggling a lot with any gateway composition against a couple of ghosts. and even if it's a zealot heavy army, the loss in food and army investment if T kites with concussive which is usually always must be out by then, will just be such a land slide. make stalkers non-armored? hmmmm lol
i have no idea, but i will try out what you proposed, thank you
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On May 04 2010 03:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Conris,
"so i guess turtle a little and fend off drops until HT or simply outmass, i just died a little inside."
Why is this bad? Are Terrans the only ones allowed to turtle? :-P And robo tech is great too. By the way, cannons are a fantastic help against bio as well, if you want to turtle :-)
sigh...lol
not only do terran matchups shut down the 1gate chrono zealot pressure openings, but it also makes me turtle, that makes me sad not because turtle is a counter strat, but rather probably the only if not efficient way to play against an entire race in general. but i guess i'll try to turtle more, and cannon to deny drops.
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On May 04 2010 02:48 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:28 HoroBoro wrote:
Emp is only effective vs toss. Storm is effective against everything. Why does this pop up so much? This is retarded.. If protoss had a unit that could cause chaos and confusion in enemies so they start attacking themselves and their brains explode.. and if it worked only against zerg then it would be fine? emp does it all.. remove shields, energy, reveals dts and observers and its free on a lower tier unit than templar that also has its own attack and cloak and other stuff.. and ghost is harder to see among mm than floating templars that leave a trail.
Yes, Iounas, I agree that the apple is crunchy and delicious. But the orange is the only fruit to have a color named after it!
All hail Protoss!!
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On May 04 2010 02:40 Craz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:29 DamageInq wrote:
Barracks 60
Academy 40
Ghost 40
Total Build Time 140
Pylon 25
Gateway 65
Cyber 50
Robotics 65
Collosus 75
Total Build Time 280
That makes no sense, why would you count a pylon as you can build all those buildings in your first pylon that you got around 10 food, or are we talking about a terran who NEVER gets supply depots and rushes straight to ghost?. And you didn't add in tech addon / energy regen. And you forgot chrono boosting.
It's simply to show the fastest it could be built not factoring in minerals or food. Both the Terran and the Toss can build supply freely while teching up, but the Toss can't start teching until his supply is up.
It really doesn't matter, take the 25 off the point is still valid. A Terran will have a ghost out well before the Toss can get a Collosus out.
EDIT: Also, Tech lab can be built at the same time you're building an academy, that's why I didn't count it. It takes 75 to EMP and I believe ghosts start with ~60, not sure on that one.
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On May 04 2010 03:26 Conris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 03:20 keV. wrote:On May 04 2010 03:07 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:59 keV. wrote:On May 04 2010 02:52 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:47 Ghostcom wrote:On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote:
you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol
this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran
"I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable. Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time. no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button. So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed? This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it. i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup. Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you. hmm i've actually gave a stalker heavy army a lot of thought, but given that ghosts are gas heavy and normally T rolls with 2~3, and the fact that there'd be techlabs instead of reactors for the ghosts, it's usually a marauder heavy army, though stalkers get that +4 on armored, it's fact that marauders rape stalkers. so i'm struggling a lot with any gateway composition against a couple of ghosts. and even if it's a zealot heavy army, the loss in food and army investment if T kites with concussive which is usually always must be out by then, will just be such a land slide. make stalkers non-armored? hmmmm lol i have no idea, but i will try out what you proposed, thank you
Well, just gateway units are going to get rolled by an all marauder group at pretty much any point in the game before charge is out, these days if I see an instant tech lab I just open void ray.
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On May 04 2010 03:29 HoroBoro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:48 iounas wrote:On May 04 2010 02:28 HoroBoro wrote:
Emp is only effective vs toss. Storm is effective against everything. Why does this pop up so much? This is retarded.. If protoss had a unit that could cause chaos and confusion in enemies so they start attacking themselves and their brains explode.. and if it worked only against zerg then it would be fine? emp does it all.. remove shields, energy, reveals dts and observers and its free on a lower tier unit than templar that also has its own attack and cloak and other stuff.. and ghost is harder to see among mm than floating templars that leave a trail. Yes, Iounas, I agree that the apple is crunchy and delicious. But the orange is the only fruit to have a color named after it! All hail Protoss!!
ohh nooo not the orange thing
well EMP can take off 100% shield for any DPS or tank tier1 unit for all I care, it hurts, but it'll break even, but taking off 100% of a dependent tier 1 caster unit is not just a rainy day in early midgame, it's a keyboard out the window kind of thing.
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On May 04 2010 03:31 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 03:26 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 03:20 keV. wrote:On May 04 2010 03:07 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:59 keV. wrote:On May 04 2010 02:52 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:47 Ghostcom wrote:On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote:
you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol
this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran
"I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable. Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time. no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button. So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed? This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it. i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup. Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you. hmm i've actually gave a stalker heavy army a lot of thought, but given that ghosts are gas heavy and normally T rolls with 2~3, and the fact that there'd be techlabs instead of reactors for the ghosts, it's usually a marauder heavy army, though stalkers get that +4 on armored, it's fact that marauders rape stalkers. so i'm struggling a lot with any gateway composition against a couple of ghosts. and even if it's a zealot heavy army, the loss in food and army investment if T kites with concussive which is usually always must be out by then, will just be such a land slide. make stalkers non-armored? hmmmm lol i have no idea, but i will try out what you proposed, thank you Well, just gateway units are going to get rolled by an all marauder group at pretty much any point in the game before charge is out, these days if I see an instant tech lab I just open void ray.
on that note...it just means in any PvT, you can only win by tech, head to head even with equal micro won't get you on top, or even pull through, that posts a major fault does it not?
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On May 04 2010 03:22 Meta wrote:
Do a lot of people in this thread not remember that EMP was already nerfed? It's radius dropped from 3 to 2, or more than 50% area reduction. It's hard to land good EMPs now, and moreover, once you land one it's completely useless. You can't kill anything with EMP, you need good support. All the protoss needs to do after EMP is back off for a little while.
Furthermore, 150 gas per ghost is ridiculously expensive. Not to mention going ghost delays factory, which delays starport/medivac support. If you see ghost you don't have to worry about banshees, which allows you a little more map control.
Finally, I know it's been mentioned 1000 times, but the simplest way to counter it is to spread your units. If you just a-move and let your units clump then it's going to do a lot more damage than it would have if you just selected a few units and moved them around. If you manually create a concave it's less likely that more than a few of your units will be hit per EMP and you'll have a positional advantage in any given fight.
Yes EMP was nerfed, and I did not see many if anyone complaining about the seize of the emp. Most are complaining about the timing of it. Again if you read my above post yes currently this is needed because of imbalances in the match up but this is beta and we are hear to test and fix things. Just because this broken things helps to counter some other broken things on the other side doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. Everything should be fixed.
As for your 150 gas comment. HT's are 50/150 need 200/200 research, are later tech, and slower with no weapon or snipe. 150/150 price is fine your not trying to fix the balance your trying to make Terran pawn. If they go any cheaper you will see them in tvt.
As for spreading forces again timing is issue. Yes I agree with that for sentries but don't think sentries is the correct answer anyway. Speedlot/immortal/stalker or speedlot/stalker/HT i think is better army comp personally. Now for spreading HT's issue is by then because of equal cost, and faster arrival, usually if you have 5 HT's they have at least 4 ghosts (if not more) so you can spread all you want but because of range if there good they will still get all or most of them. That then is why I put the range thing in my previouse post.
AGAIN cause I refuse to be misunderstood I DO THINK PVT is IMBA in P favor, but I don't think that means you should ignore the parts of terran that will be an issue once you fix P.
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Conris,
"on that note...it just means in any PvT, you can only win by tech, head to head even with equal micro won't get you on top, or even pull through, that posts a major fault does it not?"
Except if the map is small (especially 2-player), you can almost always win with a 2-gate proxy build... so anyone can complain about anything ;-)
The point is that it's possible to hold off a bio rush, even with ghosts. The bio rush is strong, but not imbalanced.
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On May 04 2010 03:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Conris,
"on that note...it just means in any PvT, you can only win by tech, head to head even with equal micro won't get you on top, or even pull through, that posts a major fault does it not?"
Except if the map is small (especially 2-player), you can almost always win with a 2-gate proxy build... so anyone can complain about anything ;-)
The point is that it's possible to hold off a bio rush, even with ghosts. The bio rush is strong, but not imbalanced.
that's true, it's possible to fend it off or completely pull through on top, but as mentioned before, that's because they fight at where you choose to (your choke or your expo) but in any field engagement, it just doesn't seem viable, so if the bio ball is running around, unless your happen to catch them at a smaller area or whatnot, you're almost always compelled to move away.
you cannot choose or even influence the position of engagement, if you rely any bit on your sentries, so i guess now the conclusion is that P has to steer away from it or micro the hell out of them in regards of positioning from a 1 click skill, ofcourse this is before you can have a large enough force where your concave does not require your sentries to throw down FF.
maybe that's the way the game will steer once that ghost pops out, if this was the intention, or whether it was to really just kill the shields, the byproduct of this timing of the ghost is much more damaging than the EMP itself is what i'm trying to say.
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On May 04 2010 03:36 Conris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 03:31 keV. wrote:On May 04 2010 03:26 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 03:20 keV. wrote:On May 04 2010 03:07 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:59 keV. wrote:On May 04 2010 02:52 Conris wrote:On May 04 2010 02:47 Ghostcom wrote:On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote:
you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol
this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran
"I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable. Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time. no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button. So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed? This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it. i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup. Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you. hmm i've actually gave a stalker heavy army a lot of thought, but given that ghosts are gas heavy and normally T rolls with 2~3, and the fact that there'd be techlabs instead of reactors for the ghosts, it's usually a marauder heavy army, though stalkers get that +4 on armored, it's fact that marauders rape stalkers. so i'm struggling a lot with any gateway composition against a couple of ghosts. and even if it's a zealot heavy army, the loss in food and army investment if T kites with concussive which is usually always must be out by then, will just be such a land slide. make stalkers non-armored? hmmmm lol i have no idea, but i will try out what you proposed, thank you Well, just gateway units are going to get rolled by an all marauder group at pretty much any point in the game before charge is out, these days if I see an instant tech lab I just open void ray. on that note...it just means in any PvT, you can only win by tech, head to head even with equal micro won't get you on top, or even pull through, that posts a major fault does it not?
RTS games are not balanced at every point in the game. I don't see a big deal in terran having an advantage in this timing window were talking about. The idea that pushing with ghosts and a bio army before protoss gets tech being a guaranteed win is a silly one. They do have an ADVANTAGE but that is not the same as an unbeatable situation.
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