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On July 18 2010 16:38 SharkSpider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units Wait what? Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots. HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry.
raven and medeivac
it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes
u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality
ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback
On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote:
Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army
On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi
ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure
but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective
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On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote:
Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
All good terrans save scan, I learned that in music class. Oh wait its every good boy deserves fudge. But seriously scan and emp itself detects cloaked units, not to mention bioball, cost and time of DTs, etc. GL sniping.
I mean feedback has 9 range, is instant, doesn't require melee and 3 hits and emp goes off no problem. feedback is the best non collosi/carrier counter to emp and those take too long to get out with the later being useless.
DT requires 100minerals 250gas tech building and cost 125/125 which is barely cheaper from a unit standpoint. It also requires a 150min 100gas citadel to access the Shrine, which itself takes... 220sec?!?? something super long...
Most terrans build a 2nd OC early before they expand, doubt a decent terran will lose to DTs or even get his ghosts sniped.
Tbh making it a slowish missle and make a big noise (like from BW) would be fine. You can check for ghosts with alt to see energy, just make Protoss "see" ghosts by glowing if they aren't cloaked, like psionic energy is detected so you can see ghosts easily, under buildings, thors, dships, etc. I can see them in a bioball most of the time now and feel thats fair, but otherwise they are too hard to see when hidden by 3d obstructions.
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As a Protoss player, adding a glow to ghosts would be such a wonderful non-gameplay changing feature. It's so easy to miss ghosts in an MMM ball. Even if you look for energy bars, it's so hard to separate them from the marines and medivacs. Even if I find one, it can sometimes be hard to even target them with EMP because of the 3d perspective.
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On July 18 2010 17:01 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 16:38 SharkSpider wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units Wait what? Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots. HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry. raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote:
Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better. dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective
Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early.
EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant.
Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback.
Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW.
I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP.
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On July 18 2010 17:22 Ploppytheman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 17:01 MorroW wrote:On July 18 2010 16:38 SharkSpider wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units Wait what? Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots. HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry. raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote:
Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better. dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early. EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant. Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback. Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW. I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP.
how the hell r u gonna spend ur energy early? heal units before the fight? throw down PDD's premature so he just backs off? upgrade ur m250 cannon and own a statue just so u dont get feedbacked? cloak banshee and prepare for battle to empty all ur energy? common man u cant argue with giving a unit feedback AND storm isnt broken. its like fungual growth and neutral parasite just that storm and feedback kills the unit instead of 36 dmg and kills the unit instead of owning it for 12 seconds
i promise u, ht stalker and zealot and few sentry for guardian shield and u will utterly rape a pure marauder composition
i also kinda dont like the design of emp. its cheap, tons of range, impossible to dodge and good vs like every toss unit, and i really dont think units that are "this unit is good vs everything^.^" fit into rts. but i would put high templar in the same category because these 2 units have been so game changing all beta, and ive been saying that for all beta too how it would come down to emps and storms unless they nerf them and who emp feedback first. turns out im starting to get more right every day. but i think its just straight up stupid to say its imbalanced because ur having issues and top foreigner tosses dont know how to the game works because they play 10 games a week and enter a tournament now and then. we got like 2 toss up there and thats huk and whitera so i would blame the players ALOT more than the actual races
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On July 18 2010 17:34 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 17:22 Ploppytheman wrote:On July 18 2010 17:01 MorroW wrote:On July 18 2010 16:38 SharkSpider wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units Wait what? Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots. HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry. raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote:
Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better. dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early. EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant. Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback. Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW. I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP. how the hell r u gonna spend ur energy early? heal units before the fight? throw down PDD's premature so he just backs off? upgrade ur m250 cannon and own a statue just so u dont get feedbacked? cloak banshee and prepare for battle to empty all ur energy? common man u cant argue with giving a unit feedback AND storm isnt broken. its like fungual growth and neutral parasite just that storm and feedback kills the unit instead of 36 dmg and kills the unit instead of owning it for 12 seconds i promise u, ht stalker and zealot and few sentry for guardian shield and u will utterly rape a pure marauder composition i also kinda dont like the design of emp. its cheap, tons of range, impossible to dodge and good vs like every toss unit, and i really dont think units that are "this unit is good vs everything^.^" fit into rts. but i would put high templar in the same category because these 2 units have been so game changing all beta, and ive been saying that for all beta too how it would come down to emps and storms unless they nerf them and who emp feedback first. turns out im starting to get more right every day. but i think its just straight up stupid to say its imbalanced because ur having issues and top foreigner tosses dont know how to the game works because they play 10 games a week and enter a tournament now and then. we got like 2 toss up there and thats huk and whitera so i would blame the players ALOT more than the actual races
feedback is variable in use and u can spend energy by spamming abilities except thor/bc is what I said ur using your abilities preemtively or keeping them away from SLOW high templar. The point is protoss spends a lot on tech and needs 5 or so templar to be effective while a terran needs 2-3 ghosts max and can do the same amount of damage AND negate all our casters. If you took 4 colossi and saw their damage vs bio, thats what 5 temps of gas is about. Hell if feedback is raping you so hard just emp or keep stimming your troops so medivacs don't get 1 shot. The point is there is something you can do to impact the effects of these spells/units. As protoss there is NO way to stop or minimize EMP with any unit comp except mass Colossi/Carrier which isn't viable till far into the midgame if not lategame.
I understand feedback seems really good, and it sometimes is, however feedback isn't ALWAYS good 100% of the time, it only works on casters but if you are going marine/hellion viking tank it does nothing. Protoss always have shields always and have casters more often than any other race as far as I can tell.
I feel as powerless as when marauders started with concussive shell as I do now versus EMP. A small change needs to be made to EMP, personally I think the missle+noise and maybe a bit more gas for academy or research EMP. Hell even a research for bigger EMP radius so spreading might have a decent effect.
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On July 18 2010 18:56 Ploppytheman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 17:34 MorroW wrote:On July 18 2010 17:22 Ploppytheman wrote:On July 18 2010 17:01 MorroW wrote:On July 18 2010 16:38 SharkSpider wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units Wait what? Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots. HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry. raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote:
Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better. dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early. EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant. Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback. Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW. I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP. how the hell r u gonna spend ur energy early? heal units before the fight? throw down PDD's premature so he just backs off? upgrade ur m250 cannon and own a statue just so u dont get feedbacked? cloak banshee and prepare for battle to empty all ur energy? common man u cant argue with giving a unit feedback AND storm isnt broken. its like fungual growth and neutral parasite just that storm and feedback kills the unit instead of 36 dmg and kills the unit instead of owning it for 12 seconds i promise u, ht stalker and zealot and few sentry for guardian shield and u will utterly rape a pure marauder composition i also kinda dont like the design of emp. its cheap, tons of range, impossible to dodge and good vs like every toss unit, and i really dont think units that are "this unit is good vs everything^.^" fit into rts. but i would put high templar in the same category because these 2 units have been so game changing all beta, and ive been saying that for all beta too how it would come down to emps and storms unless they nerf them and who emp feedback first. turns out im starting to get more right every day. but i think its just straight up stupid to say its imbalanced because ur having issues and top foreigner tosses dont know how to the game works because they play 10 games a week and enter a tournament now and then. we got like 2 toss up there and thats huk and whitera so i would blame the players ALOT more than the actual races feedback is variable in use and u can spend energy by spamming abilities except thor/bc is what I said ur using your abilities preemtively or keeping them away from SLOW high templar. The point is protoss spends a lot on tech and needs 5 or so templar to be effective while a terran needs 2-3 ghosts max and can do the same amount of damage AND negate all our casters. If you took 4 colossi and saw their damage vs bio, thats what 5 temps of gas is about. Hell if feedback is raping you so hard just emp or keep stimming your troops so medivacs don't get 1 shot. The point is there is something you can do to impact the effects of these spells/units. As protoss there is NO way to stop or minimize EMP with any unit comp except mass Colossi/Carrier which isn't viable till far into the midgame if not lategame. I understand feedback seems really good, and it sometimes is, however feedback isn't ALWAYS good 100% of the time, it only works on casters but if you are going marine/hellion viking tank it does nothing. Protoss always have shields always and have casters more often than any other race as far as I can tell. I feel as powerless as when marauders started with concussive shell as I do now versus EMP. A small change needs to be made to EMP, personally I think the missle+noise and maybe a bit more gas for academy or research EMP. Hell even a research for bigger EMP radius so spreading might have a decent effect.
vs that unit composition u can go stalker guardian shield and colosus
look ur always just gonna find unit compositions that seem to break something, but every unit composition has a counter thats just how it works. but at the end of the day if u sit with 3-4 different unit types and 1-2 of those are spellcasters then u need pretty much 250-350 apm to pull it off like progamers did in sc1. nobody has nowhere near reached an armys potential in tvp. emp and storm sure it seems really fucking strong because it pretty much demolishes everything and is realativily easy to use, but in a halfyear or so ppl will be better at spreading their toss units out will know more about unit composition and its gonna be alot more balanced just because units learn. right now almost all tosses dont know alot about tvp which units to use etc just because its a very hard race to learn while terran can kinda stick with a unit composition thats pretty allround vs everything and toss kinda needs to mix his stuff up more. but back to the actual storm vs emp topic, it doesnt nescasarily have to be imbalanced just because u cant dodge the emps. i can keep my medeivacs in the back and i can keep my raven in the back to avoid PDD but thats just really difficult. at the same time i wanna keep my marines back from the storm and keep my marauder away from getting surrounded by toss. so i dont see the logic of keeping units back because every single terran unit is like that when feedback is here so it all pretty much comes down to terran kiting and toss having slow ass hts that own anything. u should try to play with colosus more, who said ht must be the main splash damage in ur army? just because they have nice gas mineral ratio with zealots doesnt mean its the best way to go. adding a projectile to the emp so u could dodge it like in sc1 and giving feedback to archon would improve this tvp issue 10 times imo. then suddenly u need 500 apm and even smarter players :p
but right now i dont think u can really complain at emp being stronger than storm just like that itself, its so stupid u cant just compare 2 elements and say which one does a better job. it doesnt work like that at all, colosus is the clear and obvious hard counter but its not like u say "ok hes making ghosts so i make tons of colosus", these are support units.
but its all just disgustingly hard in reality to just micro in a tvp battle and terrans might just go ahead and win more of it because as tt1 said, have better a-move units just like toss vs terran in sc1 where toss won on lower levels cause of their a-move :p also its easier to create a logical unit composition for terran because we got a more "forced" tech tree where he have to get everything early on (rax,port,fac) and then can make everything while toss has so many chooses making it more difficult to adapt and the timings
so to sum that up i think both require just as hard micro and timing, terran require more multitasking and macro, apm to simplify it while i think toss require more planning, scouting and unit composing
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What are the actual mechanics of EMP? Does it take off a reliable amount of shield every time, or does it drain all shields no matter what? What I am getting at is, do shield upgrades do anything in TvP when they go ghosts?
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I've played at least 300+ games this beta phase and probably about 500+ games total as protoss, and have been ranked in the top 15 across diamond leagues this phase as well. I've tried and tested pretty much every possible viable build vs. terran and have come to the conclusion that getting storm is the worse mistake you could do as a toss user, unless it's for lategame harass or you know for SURE the Terran doesn't have ghosts.
EMP not only decimates your army, but makes your sentries and HTs useless BEFORE you even engage into a fight. In actuallity, you could even get EMPed before you even get HTs out because ghosts are so readily obtainable for a Terran. I mean how many new protoss players out there have had the pleasant experience of a Terran scanning up your ramp, EMP spam your sentries, then proceed to march up and destroy you with marauders?
People arguing about HTs being OP because of feedback are just looking for a scapegoat. EMP is supposed to be a way for Protoss to counter bio balls. MnM ball is realistically only beatable with collasus right now, and even with that you need impeccable collasus and stalker blink micro to win against a Terran who is decent.
Although I don't want to derail but
+ Show Spoiler +I honestly believe the source of this evil is the marauder. Forget broodlords, void rays, collasus, the marauder is easily the most overlooked OP unit deserving of a nerf right now. It can survive 2+ storms with easy micro, and destroys anything on the ground coupled with EMP and are cheap as hell.
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On July 18 2010 17:22 Ploppytheman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 17:01 MorroW wrote:On July 18 2010 16:38 SharkSpider wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units Wait what? Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots. HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry. raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote:
Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better. dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early. EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant. Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback. Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW. I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP.
I agree. I honestly think that PvT would be completely balanced if EMP was completely removed from the game. As it stands, it is just a huge bonus to Terran players.
On July 18 2010 19:33 Zidane wrote:Although I don't want to derail but + Show Spoiler +I honestly believe the source of this evil is the marauder. Forget broodlords, void rays, collasus, the marauder is easily the most overlooked OP unit deserving of a nerf right now. It can survive 2+ storms with easy micro, and destroys anything on the ground coupled with EMP and are cheap as hell.
I agree that Marauders are extremely strong once they get Stim. But it is EMP that makes Bioballs so invincible- without EMP, we'd be able to force field behind them to prevent them from stim kiting, we'd be able to use Storms and feedback Medivacs, etc. As is, Protoss is struggling for a viable unit composition because EMP swipes half of your tech tree off of the table without leaving any holes in the Terran's composition (by this I mean that you never see a Ghost + bioball build and go "oh hey, he's vulnerable to ___"). PvT isn't very dynamic, it is a contest of whether the T can get a bioball up and roll over P.
Why not expand the EMP radius to its pre-nerf size, and give it to the Raven (Science vessel style), then lower the energy cost of Snipe. That way Ghosts still offer a way to kill HTs, albeit a more micro-intensive way, and they remain good, cloaking, nuking units. But Terran actually has to tech beyond T1.5 to beat P.
Either that, or EMP needs a serious nerf.
The good thing is that EMP should be relatively easy to balance, since it only affects a single matchup.
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On July 18 2010 19:33 Zidane wrote: I've tried and tested pretty much every possible viable build vs. terran and have come to the conclusion that getting storm is the worse mistake you could do as a toss user
This statement is absurd. When I play bio, literally the only thing that completely shuts me down and forces me to tech switch is a good storm user. If you're getting your HTs emped to the point that they're worthless, you're doing it wrong. You should never have your HTs bunched up so they can all get EMPed.
The good storm users I've played do the following:
a) spread their HTs out so they can't get emped
b) keep forward pylons so they can warp in and insta-storm once they get amulet
c) include units that are hard to run from (i.e. chargelots) so that running from storms is painful
d) keeps their HTs in the back of your army. There's no reason you should get them EMPed before getting storms off
e) keep an observer around to prevent cloak ninja-emps
f) morph them into archons once their power is spent. Archons are excellent tanks
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One of the problem for me is that the HTs are damn slow... so slow that if you're moving on the field and the T player catches you (scout, etc.), you'll get in trouble very quickly. Why ?
Ghost rushing on you => EMP. The templars are behind your army, spread or not. The fact is, zealots are without shields and sentrys are useless (considering you actually have sentrys and HT... nice gas ghost... btw it make me laugh so hard when T players say the ghost is expensive).
So sentry without energy = no force field. No force field = pure rape by stim marauders/marines. Storm ? Lol... no storm here. The fight is so fast the zealots are kited and the HTs can't join the zealots. What happens is the marauders own the zealots, then the poor HTs who didn't have a chance to storm all over the place. Oh wait... they did... but the MMM just backed and the zealots ate it.
And I am not talking about macroing in ur base without looking the battle. (when did the terran become the hard macro race ? sorry I just can't see...)
To balance the MU I'd give a great buff to HT's speed... that seems stupide, but I really think it can help. Then the toss player will actually be able to really storm the death ball without eating the storms himself.
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Give me a HT with instant storm, feedback, warpin anyday of the week over a shity ghost with emp.
Emp is only better early game to disable immortal shields and easy to hit sentries. Once it gets to the midgame and late the templar has just so many more advantages than a ghost. Warp in + instant storm is a completly broken mechanic to. Try to break protoss expos once templars got both upgrades up is virtualy impossible cause 24/7 storm. Early game emp might need a nerf but in the mid game its totaly fine as it is.
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On July 18 2010 19:26 MarzH05 wrote:
What are the actual mechanics of EMP? Does it take off a reliable amount of shield every time, or does it drain all shields no matter what? What I am getting at is, do shield upgrades do anything in TvP when they go ghosts?
EMP drains 100 shield points, drains all energy and uncloacks.
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On July 18 2010 21:12 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2010 19:26 MarzH05 wrote:
What are the actual mechanics of EMP? Does it take off a reliable amount of shield every time, or does it drain all shields no matter what? What I am getting at is, do shield upgrades do anything in TvP when they go ghosts? EMP drains 100 shield points, drains all energy and uncloacks.
You forgot its instant.
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This is Starcraft 2 WINGS OF LIBERTY. Its too bad that Flash or Fantasy still havent got into hard core practice with SC2 and picked Terran. Then we would only watch rofl-mega-stomp of every other player who dares to challenge them no matter theyr Korean or no.
Pls, PLS PLS.. if u care for ur consumers be reasonable and make a game that is FAIR.
200/200 research for EMP at ghost academy would be a good start.
mass marine with combat shield and stim > all protoss ground and air exept tier 3 HT and colo
Marauders with stim > ALL protoss ground
EMP > ALL protoss units exept Colossi, Carrier and Mothership (rofl who builds that?)
Viking > ALL protoss air, RANGE 9 !! (it doesent win vs phoenix 1 v1 but also phoenix costs more and is not so easy to mass. it does win in mass)
Tanks > ALL protoss ground
There is just too many units that counter a LOT of protoss units in the same time and combined that with CHEAP and easily attainable EMP u draw the conclusion.
Im not going to buy the game untill they patch it right and fair.
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So how much shield do gateway units have, and how much of a bonus do they get with the first shield upgrade?
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On July 19 2010 03:47 MarzH05 wrote:
So how much shield do gateway units have, and how much of a bonus do they get with the first shield upgrade?
depends on the gateway unit, but usually anywhere from 40 - 100 sounds about right for shields. and the combat shield upgrade for marines get +10 hp which is nice to have. EMP does not need to be nerfed, if you take that away, you take away the only use for ghost other than a very expensive glass pick cannon.
if anything, players need to better manage their units, or protoss may need a slight buff early game for EMP, but as it stands... i have a harder time vs voidrays
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I don't understand why EMP has any business killing shields as well as draining energy, wouldn't it still be very good if it just drained energy while not destroying a protoss ground force?
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As a terrain player, I think that storm is ridiculous especially against couple high templers.
I think blizzard should remove storm and emp because I think they are both overpowered.
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EPT
