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AncienTs
Japan227 Posts
Can we stop suggesting balance changes? The bottom line is that protoss has to do a bit of thinking about where he will be fighting the terran ball by assessing his unit composition. I really suggest a good mix of tier1 units, there's no magic formula the number of sentries - but make sure you can forcefield the terran into your zealots and micro so that you gain a concave more quickly. | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
On July 15 2010 05:08 Lucius2 wrote: i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi... Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with. Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
On July 15 2010 05:28 AncienTs wrote: I can't believe how many threads I've seen with a title like this. Can we stop suggesting balance changes? The bottom line is that protoss has to do a bit of thinking about where he will be fighting the terran ball by assessing his unit composition. I really suggest a good mix of tier1 units, there's no magic formula the number of sentries - but make sure you can forcefield the terran into your zealots and micro so that you gain a concave more quickly. Thats the problem. Terran doesn't have to think they just E click A move and all the things toss can do are ineffective at best. EMP needs changed. | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
On July 15 2010 05:33 Ploppytheman wrote: Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with. Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything? | ||
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
On July 15 2010 05:55 Lucius2 wrote: lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything? Because 99% of people in the beta play no where near optimally and 1a e click t is easier than splitting your forces and casting forcefields properly. It's an easy strat to execute that is not as easily counterable, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced. | ||
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Iblis
904 Posts
On July 15 2010 06:12 DanielD wrote: Because 99% of people in the beta play no where near optimally and 1a e click t is easier than splitting your forces and casting forcefields properly. It's an easy strat to execute that is not as easily counterable, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced. I wonder what you could consider imbalance if it's not taken a situation where 2 armies with almost the same time/ressource spent ( knowing terran rax armies usually needs less gas), when the 2 armies are confronting for one side to survive he needs to have 2 times more effective APM, preparation before fight(positionning, flanking) tactical execution in fight(guardian's shield, Forcefield, focus fire marauders with stalkers/immortal) while the terran just have to be careful of not being caught half pants down on a choke and he can pretty much 1a cast some EMP and maybe stim to be greatly effective. | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
On July 15 2010 05:55 Lucius2 wrote: lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything? We are saying EMP is imba you retard, L2R | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
On July 15 2010 06:58 Iblis wrote: I wonder what you could consider imbalance if it's not taken a situation where 2 armies with almost the same time/ressource spent ( knowing terran rax armies usually needs less gas), when the 2 armies are confronting for one side to survive he needs to have 2 times more effective APM, preparation before fight(positionning, flanking) tactical execution in fight(guardian's shield, Forcefield, focus fire marauders with stalkers/immortal) while the terran just have to be careful of not being caught half pants down on a choke and he can pretty much 1a cast some EMP and maybe stim to be greatly effective. This. Especially given that blizzard nerfed void ray because of supposed disproportionate skill in attacking with VR compared to defending. EMP is way more difficult to defend against yet it remains, while if you aren't a retard and got a viking and micro it, or build some rines, or built a turret and didn't put a ton of buildings all over the outside of your base you can easily deal with VR harass. But a lot of Terrans were too retarded and cried bloody murder, even though good Terrans laughed at VR harass. You know how many terrans I raped making void rays while they attack moved vikings to me when I was charged? A lot of games I would just H position over their stargates and when viking popped they would sit there and try to out dmg me. There are many easy ways to counter and beat VR but blizz nerfed it. I'm not so mad about VR nerf except that its a double standard to make EMP so easy and leave it as is. Maybe some devs will read this and change EMP to be fair. | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc. | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
If we do that will protoss users be happy? lol | ||
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Gr33ned
Canada22 Posts
Perhaps changing required energy from 75 to 100 would be more appropriate. | ||
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WeSt
Portugal918 Posts
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
On July 15 2010 06:58 Iblis wrote: I wonder what you could consider imbalance if it's not taken a situation where 2 armies with almost the same time/ressource spent ( knowing terran rax armies usually needs less gas), when the 2 armies are confronting for one side to survive he needs to have 2 times more effective APM, preparation before fight(positionning, flanking) tactical execution in fight(guardian's shield, Forcefield, focus fire marauders with stalkers/immortal) while the terran just have to be careful of not being caught half pants down on a choke and he can pretty much 1a cast some EMP and maybe stim to be greatly effective. I would consider a situation where 2 armies with almost same time/res spent fought and both players played perfect and one army won handily imbalanced. You make a choice when you pick your race -- how do I want to play? If you pick toss, you have forgiving macro mechanic (warp-gate) in exchange for the need to micro your more expensive, tougher units better in order for them to be cost effective. Terran has the least forgiving macro mechanic as far as building units (energy on OC is obv forgiving) and the focus is more on constant production/proper composition/timing of spell usage. Again, I have yet to see a replay where a toss properly patrol-spreads or otherwise does the proper micro to negate EMP's affects and still loses to a 1a'd bio blob. Shields come back infinitely faster than ghost energy, you could spam FF and completely stop army from advancing until shields come back, which would be looong before the ghost(s) had enough energy for further EMP, just as one example of a solution. And don't say "but my seeeentriiies get empeeeeeeeeed tooooooo" because you can keep them back for chrissakes. Yes EMP has range nine but it doesn't have radius 1,000 | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote: Bunch of whiners, brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc. Well for someone like me who is new to RTS games and Starcraft in general, this is a real turnoff to the game. I don't want to try and play PvT just to lose to MMM again and again. I try to go HT to feedback the Medivacs, drop some storms on the MMM ball, but that get's scouted by a scan or they're just smart enough to make ghosts in general, and the ghosts just drop their use(along with my blink/charge, whatever I upgrade on my way to Templar Archives). Ok, well I'll fallback, wait for shields to come back, energy, etc. Well he has concussive shells. Even if half my units are able to get out, it's still gg. | ||
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SharkSpider
Canada606 Posts
On July 15 2010 08:01 DanielD wrote: I would consider a situation where 2 armies with almost same time/res spent fought and both players played perfect and one army won handily imbalanced. You make a choice when you pick your race -- how do I want to play? If you pick toss, you have forgiving macro mechanic (warp-gate) in exchange for the need to micro your more expensive, tougher units better in order for them to be cost effective. Terran has the least forgiving macro mechanic as far as building units (energy on OC is obv forgiving) and the focus is more on constant production/proper composition/timing of spell usage. Again, I have yet to see a replay where a toss properly patrol-spreads or otherwise does the proper micro to negate EMP's affects and still loses to a 1a'd bio blob. Shields come back infinitely faster than ghost energy, you could spam FF and completely stop army from advancing until shields come back, which would be looong before the ghost(s) had enough energy for further EMP, just as one example of a solution. And don't say "but my seeeentriiies get empeeeeeeeeed tooooooo" because you can keep them back for chrissakes. Yes EMP has range nine but it doesn't have radius 1,000 So first you say that imbalance is when two skilled players face off and one army anihilates the other, but then for some reason there's a problem with the fact that no one can come up with a replay where a very good player loses to a complete newb because of EMP? There's two things there, and while I agree with the first, if you look at battles in which Protoss and Terran players both micro decently, EMP can still wreck a Protoss force. If blizzard only fixed problems that let 1a-ers beat good players, the game would be in a sorry state right now. Regardless, you want to make the claim that shield regen can be used to beat EMP. That works against newbs, but good players will only EMP when shots are being fired, meaning that EMP is always HP damage on units, or energy damage on casters. Casters get energy at the same rate as the ghost, and HP just doesn't regenerate. Even with that, you're correct in saying that Protoss can FF spam to block a Terran army. But riddle me this: is one or two EMPs worth the number of units you lose by running away from a faster army (stimpacks) and being forced to throw 6-8 forcefields down to block off the center of a map like LT or Steppes of war? You seem to be seriously underestimating the number of ghosts a Terran player can have in relation to the size of a Protoss army. Even with a few medivacs, and 1-1 marauders to stalkers, they'll be able to afford two ghosts for every 3 sentries or one ghost for every high templar, (if they even need that many). If it takes 3 sentries worth of forcefields to get away from 2 EMPs, the Protoss player still comes out of the altercation at a loss. Likewise, even if EMPs only single-target High Templar, the Terran player can fight with decently-priced snipers that 5-shot zealots after an EMP. | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote: Bunch of whiners, brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc. They are balancing SC2 to be balanced at all levels and they nerfed Void Rays specifically b/c shitty terrans were losing. EMP screws you even if you do a ton of things to prevent it. Thats why it should be changed. Double standards are bullshit, and trying to make the game better is whining? Idiot. | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
On July 15 2010 08:01 DanielD wrote: I would consider a situation where 2 armies with almost same time/res spent fought and both players played perfect and one army won handily imbalanced. You make a choice when you pick your race -- how do I want to play? If you pick toss, you have forgiving macro mechanic (warp-gate) in exchange for the need to micro your more expensive, tougher units better in order for them to be cost effective. Terran has the least forgiving macro mechanic as far as building units (energy on OC is obv forgiving) and the focus is more on constant production/proper composition/timing of spell usage. Again, I have yet to see a replay where a toss properly patrol-spreads or otherwise does the proper micro to negate EMP's affects and still loses to a 1a'd bio blob. Shields come back infinitely faster than ghost energy, you could spam FF and completely stop army from advancing until shields come back, which would be looong before the ghost(s) had enough energy for further EMP, just as one example of a solution. And don't say "but my seeeentriiies get empeeeeeeeeed tooooooo" because you can keep them back for chrissakes. Yes EMP has range nine but it doesn't have radius 1,000 Yeh when they EMP I just run because they don't have stim or concussive shell, maybe you should research those so you can get out of copper. EMP radius is too big for how EMP is implemented, not to mention they can have 2 ghosts and just emp you when you bring your sentries. On top of that late game 3 EMPs can cover 90% of a toss army easy, at which point there is no spreading You think its harder to be able to Q up units than to go back to your pylon and warp in stuff? And thats only gateways. You can make units w/o looking back at your base but toss has to spend a few seconds back where there is a power grid. I don't see how pressing your building hotkey and pressing D 6x is harder than going back to your base and shift clicking units. Plus toss is vulnerable during warp in, either from pylons dying, warped in units getting attacked, etc. The only thing I think is hard macro wise is zerg spawn larva, the rest is fairly easy. And before you start crying about warp in protoss has limited mobility relative to the other races. | ||
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kawazu
United States111 Posts
On July 15 2010 08:20 Demarini wrote: Well for someone like me who is new to RTS games and Starcraft in general, this is a real turnoff to the game. I don't want to try and play PvT just to lose to MMM again and again. I try to go HT to feedback the Medivacs, drop some storms on the MMM ball, but that get's scouted by a scan or they're just smart enough to make ghosts in general, and the ghosts just drop their use(along with my blink/charge, whatever I upgrade on my way to Templar Archives). Ok, well I'll fallback, wait for shields to come back, energy, etc. Well he has concussive shells. Even if half my units are able to get out, it's still gg. Lets look at the Terran players options. So no MMM... Bio wise that leaves a ghost and reaper army. Wonderful. Totally viable. Ok Terran player goes mech, which would be the other early game option. You go stargate or robobay. You win! Factory can't deal with void rays if you are at anywhere close to the level of macro as them. Factory also gets destroyed by immortals. Before critical mass, factory units will lose to a purely zealot army that you attack moved. Or a pure stalker army. Terran has to have a strong bio force because the factory is such a non-factor against Protoss. Terran has to go MM or you will lose. You don't have the option to do anything else. Most Terran builds use MM to transition to something else. In other match-ups, you have the option to use factory units. In TvP, you don't. | ||
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DanielD
United States192 Posts
On July 15 2010 08:34 SharkSpider wrote: So first you say that imbalance is when two skilled players face off and one army anihilates the other, but then for some reason there's a problem with the fact that no one can come up with a replay where a very good player loses to a complete newb because of EMP? There's two things there, and while I agree with the first, if you look at battles in which Protoss and Terran players both micro decently, EMP can still wreck a Protoss force. If blizzard only fixed problems that let 1a-ers beat good players, the game would be in a sorry state right now. Regardless, you want to make the claim that shield regen can be used to beat EMP. That works against newbs, but good players will only EMP when shots are being fired, meaning that EMP is always HP damage on units, or energy damage on casters. Casters get energy at the same rate as the ghost, and HP just doesn't regenerate. Even with that, you're correct in saying that Protoss can FF spam to block a Terran army. But riddle me this: is one or two EMPs worth the number of units you lose by running away from a faster army (stimpacks) and being forced to throw 6-8 forcefields down to block off the center of a map like LT or Steppes of war? You seem to be seriously underestimating the number of ghosts a Terran player can have in relation to the size of a Protoss army. Even with a few medivacs, and 1-1 marauders to stalkers, they'll be able to afford two ghosts for every 3 sentries or one ghost for every high templar, (if they even need that many). If it takes 3 sentries worth of forcefields to get away from 2 EMPs, the Protoss player still comes out of the altercation at a loss. Likewise, even if EMPs only single-target High Templar, the Terran player can fight with decently-priced snipers that 5-shot zealots after an EMP. You make some good points, and no, it isn't a good trade since you do lose those units to slow. But ghosts are 150/150 so comparing them to sentry or templar isn't totally fair, and again, I want to see some evidence of this imba since I never see it in my games. People can explain all they want but I want to see some video or a replay. | ||
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
On July 15 2010 08:52 kawazu wrote: Lets look at the Terran players options. So no MMM... Bio wise that leaves a ghost and reaper army. Wonderful. Totally viable. Ok Terran player goes mech, which would be the other early game option. You go stargate or robobay. You win! Factory can't deal with void rays if you are at anywhere close to the level of macro as them. Factory also gets destroyed by immortals. Before critical mass, factory units will lose to a purely zealot army that you attack moved. Or a pure stalker army. Terran has to have a strong bio force because the factory is such a non-factor against Protoss. Terran has to go MM or you will lose. You don't have the option to do anything else. Most Terran builds use MM to transition to something else. In other match-ups, you have the option to use factory units. In TvP, you don't. HE IS TALKING ABOUT EMP THIS THREAD IS ABOUT EMP EMP IS THREAD THIS ABOUT TALK EMP | ||
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