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On July 14 2010 19:20 Skyze wrote:
I dont understand people saying Marines get raped by stalkers..
Do a test.. 12 Marines vs 5 stalkers (600 min each) straight up attack move.. Who would win? It would be close, but probably the marines. Thats not counting STIM.. Marine HP shields.. and the extra 125 gas that 5 stalkers would cost. Want to give stalkers blink? Doesnt make a difference when it comes to straight up attack move battle.
Micro? Sure, you can win if the stalkers are microed.. But then add in 2 marauders with slow, and you cant use your stalker range to your advantage anymore, because each time you pull back, 2 stalkers will die.
Its not so bad when you look at it alone, but keep in mind how Mules give terran such an economy boost, added with the "counters" to marines being so weak (even Zealots, without gaurdian shield and charge, would die way fast against marines unlike in BW when zeals actually did good vs marines).. Basically terran can A) Have units that win straight up regardless of micro.. and B) Have the nessisary economy boosting to support straight up units, even when fast expoing.. and C) The next 2 units out of the Barracks which decimate every Protoss ground unit in Marauders and Ghosts, sprinkled in with mass Marines makes an insane army.
Oh. and EMP, which instantly makes a protoss army half HP in one long-ranged large radius shot for 75 mana. Combine that with Marines when you can have 12 for every 5 zealots or stalkers the opponent has.
...marines do get raped by stalkers, who attack moves armies in game...
just b/c there are slow maruaders doesn't mean you lose early game, you can still micro a bit, the snare on maruaders doesn't last as long as the cooldown on shot and they won't have stim yet. Throw in just one zealot and your stalkers can micro a ton.
I think the solution to emp is a range nerf, or ideally putting it on ravens and require research.
Ghosts just have too many advantages against toss and its bullshit to say its fine. If void ray got nerfed b/c retard terrans can't micro a viking with 9 range and decent speed, build a few turrets, or build a few marines and not put a ton of building on the edge of their base, why they hell is an instant cast AoE 100dmg shield/energy removal from 9+ range that requires little tech on a fast unit that can cloak and blends in with a bio ball allowed to exist? Not to mention its still a good fighting unit.
Saying storm is better b/c it can kill stuff or works on all races is bullshit too. You don't get emp or ghosts in other MU as much if at all, you use emp at the start of a battle and can have enough to knock out an entire army's shields and energy. Storm RARELY does 80dmg and if it does its likely a mistake on their part. EMP is so stupid atm I can't see it not getting changed. BW emp was perfect, this is redic.
How to fix emp do any of these
-Range nerf to 7
-Ghost takes up more space so it is visible, or toss sees ghosts highlighted b/c of their psionic energy (aka no hiding under thors, dships, buildings).
-Emp drains shields over time (but still removes all energy)
-Emp has a slowish moving projectile
-Emp has a short cast time that makes a noise
-Emp is moved to Raven, Snipe can shoot through multiple units (like halo sniper)
-Emp doesn't work on units in Guardian Shield but it disrupts all GS in the area. Emp needs a noticeable sound effect for this as well.
-Add shield battery, possibly using Nexus energy (1 energy = 4shield) or pylon upgrade, etc. Would require pylon power but not to be near the nexus. This would make Protoss macro mechanic more useful mid-late game and fix EMP early game
-Immortals take 10 dmg from EMP
-Emp locks out spells for 10sec rather than draining energy, but still drains shields
-Archons absorb EMP within 6 range and get a 25% boost to dmg for 10sec and a 33% boost to speed. Archons suck atm, might make them viable in PvT. Researched at Templar Archives, costs 150minerals 50gas.
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Ghosts cost 150 gas. Just throwing that in the discussion.
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Sentries cost 100 gas.. immortals cost 100 gas.. stalkers cost 25 gas each. One ghost (the cost of 1 immortal and 2 stalkers, or even less than 2 sentries) can ruin a whole protoss army.
I dont see how thats an argument, because of how effective marines are (WAY more effective than zealots before charge, which is the only protoss non-gas unit)..
its not like the mothership, costing ~700 minerals and gas to get.. Its only 150 gas. that is not a lot for instant half-HPing an army the size of its radius.
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and Ploppy you missed my point. I wasnt saying protoss earlygame is weak, I actually survive almost every PvT until 30+ minutes at least (I am top 10 diamond, well before my lack of playing for 2 days).. Its just that for anyone to argue that Stalkers "rape" marines.. That is a flat out false statement. Marines do more than hold their own vs stalkers.. And the surrounding stuff terran has, is what makes it overwhelming in the end.
This isnt BW.. Theres no "hard counters" like Vultures owning zealots, Dragoons owning vultures, Tanks owning dragoons, zealots owning tanks.. etc.. Its purely everything is decent against everything.. and for that to work, Marines or EMP or something needs to be brought down a bit because once terran gets that massive ball going, the only solution is collosus or storm.. Which is way too resource intensive for Protoss to keep up vs terran who can rebuild their MMM ball from tier 1 buildings where the only thing that costs gas is 150 for a ghost (only need 2-3 in your ball to destroy a whole protoss army) and medivacs (which you again only need afew).. Protoss NEEDS templars (150 gas, very expensive) or collosus (200 gas wow) to even compete at that point, two units that are pretty bad in small numbers, meaning that you need to invest a LOT LOT of gas into just surviving vs terran. That shouldnt be the case. If protoss needs that much gas to even make it past mid-game.. then they should be able to expo faster and safer, rather than dying to the marauder push if you try to expo while terran can expo safely no prob even if protoss 4warpgate rushes.
My issues with PvT comes all in the lategame. Its like that White-Ra vs Dalailamer replay.. I can survive the first 3-4 big battles, maybe even win them.. but in the end game, unless your macro is as good as White-Ra (and not many are).. then you are gonna be in trouble, because terran can regenerate their army so fast after a battle, where Protoss is going to be starved for gas, even if they are running 3 bases, to just keep the MMM ball under control with storms/etc.
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On small maps like steppes of war a terran player can seriously mass only marines and rush for a ghost academy, stimpak and combat shields, and push as soon as 1-2 ghosts with emp are out, and the protoss can not make really anything to counter it in time. they can maybe get charge but that would be rushing it, and they definitely couldn't get storm if the terran times it right. I seriously hate how marines with stimpak/emp can win against any combination of early protoss units.. the only chance in hell you have is to wait at your base when you know hes pushing and spread your units out really wide.. and then you must wait and hope he engages you because good luck moving across the map to attack him and setting up in a good position with all your units spread out enough to not get emp'd instantly.. I suppose if you rushed ht's you could perfectly position them everytime to feedback the ghosts before they emp you but that requires sooo much coordination and perfect positioning, it's such a hassle to play against terran now days. most of the time i end up getting frustrated and doing insane early stalker builds to just win early but thats such a risky move and i dont know what else to do.
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On July 14 2010 21:19 bowyert wrote:
On small maps like steppes of war a terran player can seriously mass only marines and rush for a ghost academy, stimpak and combat shields, and push as soon as 1-2 ghosts with emp are out, and the protoss can not make really anything to counter it in time. they can maybe get charge but that would be rushing it, and they definitely couldn't get storm if the terran times it right. I seriously hate how marines with stimpak/emp can win against any combination of early protoss units.. the only chance in hell you have is to wait at your base when you know hes pushing and spread your units out really wide.. and then you must wait and hope he engages you because good luck moving across the map to attack him and setting up in a good position with all your units spread out enough to not get emp'd instantly.. I suppose if you rushed ht's you could perfectly position them everytime to feedback the ghosts before they emp you but that requires sooo much coordination and perfect positioning, it's such a hassle to play against terran now days. most of the time i end up getting frustrated and doing insane early stalker builds to just win early but thats such a risky move and i dont know what else to do.
Well.. judging from the last 3 pages of this thread.. All you need is Stalkers, since Stalkers are the "hard counter" to Marines. And if you lose, even if you are outnumbered 50 marines to 20 stalkers (same cost).. Its all because you "cant micro".
Least, thats what the terran experts tell me.
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I know, I dare any terran player to open up a unit testing map and pit like 15 marines with stimpak + ghost against 8-9 stalkers,.. if emp lands (which honestly you have to be terrible to not hit at LEAST half the force) then the stalkers will seriously melt away like butter before you even kill more than 4 marines.. and you can not micro stalkers vs stim paked marines.. if you try to fall back its a lose lose because theyre able to out run you and do massive damage while youre not attacking and running
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Saying toss can just throw in Collosi is pretty crazy. You gotta do another whole tech tree in addition to temps. That's two 3rd tech units that both are crazy expensive and take quite awhile to research and make. It's like saying going MMM with ghosts and thors, which is less expensive then both going collosi with thermal lances and templars. The issue is the cost of developing protoss tech. Your having to spend 2x the resources of terran for a build that can counter units that they can produce and have upgraded by tier 2 (waiting just for ghosts).
It can be done though, just watch WhiteRa. He has a pretty damn solid temp/speedlot build that he uses a LOT on terrans. It really comes down to micro, but the emp is pretty damn strong. As strong as emp is against protoss, storm is complete rape against zerg and that includes archons. It's a give-take, but I can see why people dislike EMP all the time that half toss shields,.
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Its kinda hilarious that there's a new version of this type of post every time i look at this forum
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maybe EMP should have like a type of effect where the middle of the EMP (say you focus it on an immortal) loses 100% of shields, then as it goes on out, they lose significantly less.. like 70%, 50%, 30%.. Of course this still will be pointless because once terran gets 3 ghosts, can still cover a full army (the cost of.. only 3 immortals, or one templar (after you have to research storm, compared to EMP being free)..
Or maybe make EMP have to be researched. And definitely more energy needed.
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nuke costs money and isn't especially useful against a decent opponent except for static defenses or supply locking.
nukes are a moot point.
Emp can't kill anything.
takes out about 1/3 of protoss units hp, which will regenerate if they are left alone.
takes out all energy.
does 100 damage to shields in 2 aoe.
Storm kills loads of things.
does 80 damage over 4 in game seconds in 1.5 aoe.
They are not supposed to do the same thing.
You can wipe out whole armies with templars. Ghosts can only act as support units that are good against protoss with emp and good against zerg with snipe.
Yes it takes longer to get templar, but they are more of a reaction to ghosts than being the same unit. Feedback will take out ghosts and other energy based units. Taking out their ghosts and medivacs will help you out significantly. Maybe more so than using storm in some instances.
Terran needs emp to deal with early gateway units and immortals. In small battles Terran can kite zealots and shrug off any return fire from stalkers. In larger battles, the Terran player can't afford to kite without taking significant ranged damage. They can't stop because Protoss units are better pound for pound and would get torn up. Emp fills the gap and prevents forcefield abuse. Without it Terran can't go offensive (aka win) without getting to starport tech. Factory units are not an option, so Terran gets a good ability on an expensive caster unit.
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On July 15 2010 03:31 kawazu wrote:
Terran needs emp to deal with early gateway units and immortals. In small battles Terran can kite zealots and shrug off any return fire from stalkers. In larger battles, the Terran player can't afford to kite without taking significant ranged damage. They can't stop because Protoss units are better pound for pound and would get torn up. Emp fills the gap and prevents forcefield abuse. Without it Terran can't go offensive (aka win) without getting to starport tech. Factory units are
not an option, so Terran gets a good ability on an expensive caster unit.
Are you kidding? Larger bio blobs, even without ghosts, RAPE gateway/immortal armies that do not contain templar/colossi. What game have you been playing?
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On July 14 2010 21:30 bowyert wrote:
I know, I dare any terran player to open up a unit testing map and pit like 15 marines with stimpak + ghost against 8-9 stalkers,.. if emp lands (which honestly you have to be terrible to not hit at LEAST half the force) then the stalkers will seriously melt away like butter before you even kill more than 4 marines.. and you can not micro stalkers vs stim paked marines.. if you try to fall back its a lose lose because theyre able to out run you and do massive damage while youre not attacking and running
give the stalkers blink and stimpack is useless.
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I want to see a replay where the P had their army in more than one control group and had a HIGHER (not equal, since remember T units are more cost effective/fragile) resource-cost army and tries to split their casters/units and still loses b/c of "imba" emp.
Thanks in advance.
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On July 15 2010 04:00 DanielD wrote:
I want to see a replay where the P had their army in more than one control group and had a HIGHER (not equal, since remember T units are more cost effective/fragile) resource-cost army and tries to split their casters/units and still loses b/c of "imba" emp.
Thanks in advance.
Spliting does nothing. When zlots move to engage with or without charge they group up, and really after stimpack is used u never have time to perfect position ur army as a toss. EMP has a huge range, much bigger than sentries or HT's and bigger aoe than HTs, and it is INSTANT. U cant dodge it. If u try to retreat after an EMP they will stim up and hcase u down and kill all ur units so that is not good also.
Comparison>
tech to emp> teclab 25 gas, academy 50 gas, 150 for the ghost> 225 gas total
tech to storm > warpgate 50, twilight coun. 100, temp arch 200, storm research 200, hight temp 150 > 700 gas total
emp> instant 100 dmg, 2 radius, 9 range, all units in blast loose energy, decloaks units
storm> 80 dmg over 4 seconds, 7 range, 1.5 radius
To be able to counter mass marines u need tier 3 tech as toss. There is no other counter couse toss only has ht and Colossi as aoe. And no, stalkers DO NOT counter marines. Even if u are early aggressive one bunker shuts u down completely. Marine/ghost timing push is incredibly difficult to beat (Bratok never lost while doin it) couse marines with shield and stim and ghost > all gateway units. Rushing to any of thoose tier 3 options is not a solution.
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I am actually seriously considering switching to T b/c of how bullshit EMP is. I'm gonna hold on till release to see if they fix it but if they don't I'm probably going T. Only reason I'm not atm is b/c I don't want to learn a new race when I'm diamond top 10 toss and silver T/Z.
I still can't beleive they nerf void rays b/c it takes too much more from T to defend it, which it doesn't, and leave EMP as this 1a2ae-click instant rape, and keep it on a low tier hard to see unit and give it 9 range.... seriously wtf blizz. Even with spread late game he can have enough ghosts and be like lol e click e click e click whole army. Tbh though the most irritating part is the ghost can be hid under medvacs and other shit so you don't even know he has a ghost sometimes.
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solution: just make immortals immune to EMP. say it's part of their "hardened shield" bonus.
that way, if you scout a ghost academy, you can throw up a robo and be able to counter a T bioball that will be smaller because it has a ghost or 2 in it.
vs. if terran decides not to produce ghosts and just mass a bunch of bioball, you will have a harder time defending if you don't get the immo's out in time.
adds some strategy & doesn't change the mu too much, imho. added bonus: makes immo's viable against tanks.
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On July 14 2010 21:23 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 21:19 bowyert wrote:
On small maps like steppes of war a terran player can seriously mass only marines and rush for a ghost academy, stimpak and combat shields, and push as soon as 1-2 ghosts with emp are out, and the protoss can not make really anything to counter it in time. they can maybe get charge but that would be rushing it, and they definitely couldn't get storm if the terran times it right. I seriously hate how marines with stimpak/emp can win against any combination of early protoss units.. the only chance in hell you have is to wait at your base when you know hes pushing and spread your units out really wide.. and then you must wait and hope he engages you because good luck moving across the map to attack him and setting up in a good position with all your units spread out enough to not get emp'd instantly.. I suppose if you rushed ht's you could perfectly position them everytime to feedback the ghosts before they emp you but that requires sooo much coordination and perfect positioning, it's such a hassle to play against terran now days. most of the time i end up getting frustrated and doing insane early stalker builds to just win early but thats such a risky move and i dont know what else to do. Well.. judging from the last 3 pages of this thread.. All you need is Stalkers, since Stalkers are the "hard counter" to Marines. And if you lose, even if you are outnumbered 50 marines to 20 stalkers (same cost).. Its all because you "cant micro". Least, thats what the terran experts tell me.
Don't use stupid ass shit like 100 BC vs 100 Muta. Who builds one unit in game. Stalkers counter marines until enough rauders are out to snare the stalkers reliably, or if he just gets stim. Well placed bunkers will stop your harass b/c of repair, yes but thats adding in a lot more than just rines. Unless he does a proxy bunker where you somehow can't snipe his SCV that only works defensively. If you get blink then can get around bunkers easy and if he doesn't have maruaders (and even if he does) you can have a field day on him.
The problem is the easy use of EMP and how ridiculously difficult if not impossible to stop it from being effective b/c when it does hit its detrimental. You shouldn't be able to have all 3 of these things:
Easy to use with little to be able to minimize the effect even if prepared
Cheap and accessible
Detrimental if used right
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
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On July 15 2010 04:49 scojac wrote:
solution: just make immortals immune to EMP. say it's part of their "hardened shield" bonus.
that way, if you scout a ghost academy, you can throw up a robo and be able to counter a T bioball that will be smaller because it has a ghost or 2 in it.
vs. if terran decides not to produce ghosts and just mass a bunch of bioball, you will have a harder time defending if you don't get the immo's out in time.
adds some strategy & doesn't change the mu too much, imho. added bonus: makes immo's viable against tanks.
that won't work b/c even with hardened shields PURE mauraders with stim will rape them. Since he has rines/ghosts/stim hardened shields don't mean anything, although I think emp should do 10dmg to shields of immortals.
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I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi...
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EPT
