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I'm having issues with EMP not because it takes pretty much half my army's sustainable HP away, but because of it's ridiculous AOE and cast range.
against any marine marauder army, Toss would be going sentry heavy with zealots at early stage of the game, however even with charge, the zealots get kited without sentries throwing down forcefields. so this is where the problem starts to become serious.
ghosts EMPs your sentries and they become utterly useless with their 40 HP and their 4 slow dmg of 5 range, they're kind of like a crappier voidray with no superduper rip everything apart charge beam mode. so this EMP to energy thing is becoming...a little out of hand?
EMPing HT is a different story, not only does EMP outrange feedback, but it's an AOE, i believe there are already many threads about EMP vs HT. so lets not talk about it too much here.
but this thread is focused on sentries being EMPed. the fact that Toss has a melee line, unlike terran where you can just 1group backstep micro (lets say EMP had an effect on terran somehow, and you attempt to fake it or dodge it.) so there's pretty much no way to dodge the EMP unless you pull out of the fight before it even starts, and maybe an EMP goes off, at the cost of maybe 2~3 zealots (concussive), you still lose the fight.
EMP is only 75 energy as well, so lets take EMP into consideration versus the HT storm briefly.
at 75 energy, storm costs 200/200 to research, and is tier 3.
at 75 energy, EMP doesn't need to be researched, is tier 2
templars have slow movement speed, do not attack
ghosts have normal movement speed, does attack
EMP is an instant aoe with 100-to shield (so the minimum damage would be 40 to sentries not including energy drain)
Storm is AoE DoT 80 dmg over 4 seconds, no energy drain.
So how did a researched spell, excuse me, an expensive researched spell be less effective (by ridiculous measures) than an equal energy cost, lesser tier unit, lesser tier spell? (yes i know EMP isn't that effective against Zerg or Terran, but there are still caster units, and hell, nukes are only 100/100, even if it doesn't go off, they lose micro and macro time. and HTs, well, we get archons, yay? (see archon thread)).
so back on topic, with sentries versus ghosts, does toss have to steer away from zealot sentry immortal armies and open with Voidrays regardless of what the terran is doing? it seems like people favor 1racks expo into 4 racks marauders nowadays anyway. but any bio army with a ghost or two or three just demolishes toss ground armies not because of marauders, nor because of EMP to shields, but because sentries become completely useless.
Please share your thoughts
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i play pure protoss and so my views on this are gonna be biased, but i agree, i think EMP needs a nerf, it makes sense to have it in the game but its a tad too strong in my opinion, my solution would be to make it researchable in the fusion building thing so that it comes out late game PvT like in the original, if that turns out to make it useless, at least put it in the ghost building with all the other stuff.
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Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it.
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I'll trade you EMP for storm and forcefield and immortal hardened shield then. deal?
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On May 04 2010 01:52 MANquistador wrote:
Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it.
Pretty much sums up the T side of the argument.
You'll now hear variations on "spead your units out," and "FF needs a serious nerf," for the next few pages of replies. Enjoy.
Let me know when we get to the part about high templar and ghosts. I'm making popcorn.
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I agree with you Conris.
The ghost have to be nerfed.
The problem is, that it is not an over time attack, your army is fucked up immediately.
It should be over time, or doing less "damage".
The research thing would also be an nice alternative.
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On May 04 2010 01:54 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 01:52 MANquistador wrote:
Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it. Pretty much sums up the T side of the argument. You'll now hear variations on "spead your units out," and "FF needs a serious nerf," for the next few pages of replies. Enjoy. Let me know when we get to the part about high templar and ghosts. I'm making popcorn.
lol
Its fine as it is atm.
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On May 04 2010 01:58 SHr3DD3r wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 01:54 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 01:52 MANquistador wrote:
Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it. Pretty much sums up the T side of the argument. You'll now hear variations on "spead your units out," and "FF needs a serious nerf," for the next few pages of replies. Enjoy. Let me know when we get to the part about high templar and ghosts. I'm making popcorn. lol Its fine as it is atm.
I never said it wasn't fine. I just get really amused at the debate (mostly because, we've been discussing the ghost/emp stuff since the first beta build).
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Calgary25980 Posts
Don't clump your units. Don't amass spellcasters if you know he's making units that specifically counter them.
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Collosus and spread them out. Tada!
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So EMP is only good vs protoss, but psi storm can be used effectively vs all races. Therefore psi storm is like a jack of all trades, works vs everything sometimes really good, sometimes lackluster but nevertheless it works vs everything. Therefore EMP which is only good vs protoss has to be equal or better than psi storm.
Guess what psi storm can still own a bio terran. How do I prevent it from owning me? I spread out. This is exactly what you should do vs emp. If you watch high level protoss you'll see them spread their army out vs emp. You can't just expect to clump 40 units together and A-Move and expect to win everytime, if you could MM vs lurker would have been a lot easier :D
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if you're using guardian shield, cast it before the EMPs go off.
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On May 04 2010 02:18 Craz wrote:
So EMP is only good vs protoss, but psi storm can be used effectively vs all races. Therefore psi storm is like a jack of all trades, works vs everything sometimes really good, sometimes lackluster but nevertheless it works vs everything. Therefore EMP which is only good vs protoss has to be equal or better than psi storm.
Guess what psi storm can still own a bio terran. How do I prevent it from owning me? I spread out. This is exactly what you should do vs emp. If you watch high level protoss you'll see them spread their army out vs emp. You can't just expect to clump 40 units together and A-Move and expect to win everytime, if you could MM vs lurker would have been a lot easier :D
Storm is equal to emp. Storm isn't as effective vs. Terran because of emp in much the same way colossi are less effective vs. Z because of infestors. The counter-unit isn't difficult to use, and has equal or greater range.
Is EMP a little better than storm? Yea, probably. Does that mean the matchup is imba and T>>>P? Nope.
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Therefore, can anyone help me PvT, I need advice.
So far I have faced 2 terrans in a row that quick tech to ghosts and marauders/marines. How do you counter this ball if I have commited to sentry/zealot/stalker and 1 or 2 immortal at beginning of game? I am not talking about late game or mid gamewhere I have colossus or templars, I am talking about maybe 5-6 minute into the game, where he already has 2 ghosts and pushes.
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As a toss player, I don't think emp can be compared with storm. Its like apples and oranges. Emp is only effective vs toss. Storm is effective against everything. Also, you can kill units with storm where as you cannot with emp. I've seen mass templar but never mass ghost.
Having said that, NERF TERRAN BUFF TOSS!!!!1!
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On May 04 2010 01:54 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 01:52 MANquistador wrote:
Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it. Pretty much sums up the T side of the argument. You'll now hear variations on "spead your units out," and "FF needs a serious nerf," for the next few pages of replies. Enjoy. Let me know when we get to the part about high templar and ghosts. I'm making popcorn.
haha, yea, i wasn't too sure if i wanted to make a thread about this, but honestly, telling me to spread my casters out really doesn't help when half or more than half of midgame entry units for toss are caster/dps with 5 range.
when you have zeal/sentry, tell me how not to clump them? it's not like HTs in the mix where their placement actually matters, but sentries are actually the main DPS against terran early mid game.
but yes i'm ready for the flaming, maybe one out of a hundred responses will be worth reading.
in response, guardian shield really doesn't matter at this point, and yes it should be used before engagement, but it doesn't help when they kite your zealots of which are out of GS range.
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On May 04 2010 02:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:
Collosus and spread them out. Tada!
Barracks 60
Academy 40
Ghost 40
Total Build Time 140
Pylon 25
Gateway 65
Cyber 50
Robotics 65
Collosus 75
Total Build Time 280
Just sayin'
I saw Orb do this (at least I think it was him) where he pushes into the T base, then once the EMP hits he pulls back to his proxy pylon and proxies more units. He doesn't that a total of 3 times then when the Terran is out of energy he waits for his shields to recharge and pushes in. High Templars are still viable against them but are a Tier 2.5 since you have to research storm. Really just make sure your important units are spread out making him decide then try to micro any immortals/collosi back that got hit.
I think if they made Terrans have to research emp, maybe 200/150 for 50 seconds it would still be just as viable vs Toss. It is quite off when you compare the two skills side be side.
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you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol
this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran
"I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
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On May 04 2010 02:22 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 02:18 Craz wrote:
So EMP is only good vs protoss, but psi storm can be used effectively vs all races. Therefore psi storm is like a jack of all trades, works vs everything sometimes really good, sometimes lackluster but nevertheless it works vs everything. Therefore EMP which is only good vs protoss has to be equal or better than psi storm.
Guess what psi storm can still own a bio terran. How do I prevent it from owning me? I spread out. This is exactly what you should do vs emp. If you watch high level protoss you'll see them spread their army out vs emp. You can't just expect to clump 40 units together and A-Move and expect to win everytime, if you could MM vs lurker would have been a lot easier :D Storm is equal to emp. Storm isn't as effective vs. Terran because of emp in much the same way colossi are less effective vs. Z because of infestors. The counter-unit isn't difficult to use, and has equal or greater range. Is EMP a little better than storm? Yea, probably. Does that mean the matchup is imba and T>>>P? Nope.
they aren't equal, at all.
i realize that EMP is only at maximum effectiveness against toss, and not against Zerg or Terran, but yea, so let's have this skill demolish 1 race, because it's meant for them solely, so i guess toss players should feel special?
hence the argument doesn't make sense.
colossi are very effective against zerg, infesters get sniped easily, unless you just leave them alone for whatever reason.
having a nuke, and a AoE DoT that is not like fungal where you can't dodge it's full dmg, they cannot be equal, please, just because they're both AoE (Area of Effect) spell, does not make them equal, i cannot emphasize that enough.
yes Psi storm is useful against all races (don't see it much against toss, simply because unit counts aren't as high as the other two races) however, if you don't play toss, try it with a friend where you rush for HTs, then have them throw 1 storm each, and tell me how the rest of the game goes. (assuming the initial pushes and pokes don't gg you already since you have next to no sentries vs terran).
so lets please move away from the paperworks, and test this stuff out from both sides, because i have and make this discussion somewhat constructive.
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You don't need a supply depot to build a barracks.
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EPT
