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Conris,
"you cannot choose or even influence the position of engagement"
Keep in mind that they eventually have to get into your base, so you know where they have to end up ;-) There's nothing wrong with deciding not to move out until you have a few robo units or stom :-)
"maybe that's the way the game will steer once that ghost pops out, if this was the intention, or whether it was to really just kill the shields, the byproduct of this timing of the ghost is much more damaging than the EMP itself is what i'm trying to say."
Very good point.
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On May 04 2010 03:22 Meta wrote:
Do a lot of people in this thread not remember that EMP was already nerfed? It's radius dropped from 3 to 2, or more than 50% area reduction. It's hard to land good EMPs now, and moreover, once you land one it's completely useless. You can't kill anything with EMP, you need good support. All the protoss needs to do after EMP is back off for a little while.
Psonic storm was nerfed as well. This thread was created after both so obviously people still think EMP is too much.
On May 04 2010 03:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Except if the map is small (especially 2-player), you can almost always win with a 2-gate proxy build... so anyone can complain about anything ;-)
2-gate proxy is a different discussion with many of threads open about it already. There's a lot of good points here from both sides, you can't really expect the fix for EMPs on Terran is to 2 Gate proxy every game.
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Right now EMP is unbalanced for a plethora of reasons in how the game differs from Brood War. But that does not mean I think EMP should be nerfed. Other things should probably just be buffed. And just because protoss is winning more of the time doesn't mean there shouldn't be a buff. If it makes the game more interesting and dynamic then i'm all for it.
That said, mass sentry/zealot seems a poor combination against marauder/ghost. Just because it worked against lone marine/marauder doesn't mean it needs to work against ghosts too.
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I don't understand why protoss complains about emp when they have units which completely demolish everything T has without it. EMP is an equalizer. Ghosts suck pretty hard in combat for their cost and take forever to make and cost 150 gas. Try doing an army on army without EMP - protoss just devastates T (with the exception of large mech armies which actually do fairly well, but we're talking about bio here I'm assuming.)
The problem is you can't nerf EMP or immortal rushes become impossible to stop again. I think protoss players just need to spread their armies better. Try using hallucinations to draw emps too. There's a lot of options other than 1a. Try them.
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Damagelnq,
"2-gate proxy is a different discussion with many of threads open about it already."
Oh I know, but I was merely coming up with a counter-claim that someone could use against Protoss at an even earlier stage in the game, before Terrans could mass bio. And they could unjustly cry "Imbalanced!", instead of figuring out how to properly counter it (scouting, walling, repairing, attacking pylon, etc.). I was just using that to refute the claim that Protoss couldn't win until after the Terran bio rush was quelled.
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DuneBug,
"Right now EMP is unbalanced for a plethora of reasons in how the game differs from Brood War."
...Like?
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On May 04 2010 03:30 DamageInq wrote:
It's simply to show the fastest it could be built not factoring in minerals or food. Both the Terran and the Toss can build supply freely while teching up, but the Toss can't start teching until his supply is up.
It really doesn't matter, take the 25 off the point is still valid. A Terran will have a ghost out well before the Toss can get a Collosus out.
EDIT: Also, Tech lab can be built at the same time you're building an academy, that's why I didn't count it. It takes 75 to EMP and I believe ghosts start with ~60, not sure on that one.
I still don't get your timing chart. You are saying that terran doesn't build anything before ghosts and protoss doesn't build anything before colossus? Saying you can get tech lab at same time you are getting ghost academy means you aren't pumping out marauders (where as a protoss can pump units out of his gateway while teching up to colossus). A ghost is a support unit it can't really kill anything alone, it's only good for emp, after that his dmg is so pathetic. There is no point in rushing to ghosts (a support unit) when the ghost can't even kill the protoss' units that have no shield after emp. Also you are still forgetting that protoss can chrono boost the colossus out.
Long story short.. it doesn't matter how fast terran can get a ghost out.. without marauders the ghost can't effectively kill anything the protoss has. And emp is more effective vs a clump of 20 units mid game than vs 1 stalker early game. Rushing to fast ghosts means you will be lacking marauders and can be easily overrun by a protoss that spots your lack of army. And early game a terran is going to have a limited amount of ghosts and energy thus limited amount of EMPs, which you can easily limit the damage taken from emp by simply spreading your units out.
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I think that a small nerf to EMP would make it more situational rather than standard practice.
Look at both HT and Infestors (the closest to Ghost equivilent) they're both very good but only in the right situations. It seems like ghosts are nessisary versus any Toss army.
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On May 04 2010 03:54 DuneBug wrote:
Right now EMP is unbalanced for a plethora of reasons in how the game differs from Brood War. But that does not mean I think EMP should be nerfed. Other things should probably just be buffed. And just because protoss is winning more of the time doesn't mean there shouldn't be a buff. If it makes the game more interesting and dynamic then i'm all for it.
That said, mass sentry/zealot seems a poor combination against marauder/ghost. Just because it worked against lone marine/marauder doesn't mean it needs to work against ghosts too.
A) Isn't the win% 54% in favor of P? So the difference isn't "that" big iirc - I can't find the post where I read this atm though, so I could very well be wrong.
B) There isn't really any other units available at the time EMP is ready. Sure a P could do a fast robo and have an immortal or 2, but they are very vulnerable to ghosts as well, so it doesn't really solve anything.
C) Again, I believe that either make EMP researchable (low cost, short time - worst of the solutions anyway imho) or make it and dodgeable by making it a projectile. The projectile would introduce more micro on both sides and more importantly, making it much more viewer friendly due to the excitement of wheter or not it hits - just like with storms(/EMP/scarabs back in SC:BW).
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On May 04 2010 03:55 Floophead_III wrote:
I don't understand why protoss complains about emp when they have units which completely demolish everything T has without it. EMP is an equalizer. Ghosts suck pretty hard in combat for their cost and take forever to make and cost 150 gas. Try doing an army on army without EMP - protoss just devastates T (with the exception of large mech armies which actually do fairly well, but we're talking about bio here I'm assuming.)
The problem is you can't nerf EMP or immortal rushes become impossible to stop again. I think protoss players just need to spread their armies better. Try using hallucinations to draw emps too. There's a lot of options other than 1a. Try them.
hallus is an interesting route, but it's 100/100 and 110 research time.
that just means you're still getting sentries, but i guess for a different purpose.
no it's true that EMP is an equalizer, but once again, it's the timing of it that is the issue, it's nice to have to fall back and push back out with a ghost in your bio ball, but that's not the case, at the speed that you can get ghosts, it's merely a push out with a ghost incorporated bio ball fairly early in the game.
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This thread makes me sad.
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lol this so sounds like omfg i cant A wall over a army like i'm able to do in PvZ anymore this needs a FIX!!! such bull lol if there's one thing that should be changed its the viability of every single unit that protoss can produce.
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ploy, why?
WoKKeLs, yeah =/
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On May 04 2010 03:59 Craz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 03:30 DamageInq wrote:
It's simply to show the fastest it could be built not factoring in minerals or food. Both the Terran and the Toss can build supply freely while teching up, but the Toss can't start teching until his supply is up.
It really doesn't matter, take the 25 off the point is still valid. A Terran will have a ghost out well before the Toss can get a Collosus out.
EDIT: Also, Tech lab can be built at the same time you're building an academy, that's why I didn't count it. It takes 75 to EMP and I believe ghosts start with ~60, not sure on that one. I still don't get your timing chart. You are saying that terran doesn't build anything before ghosts and protoss doesn't build anything before colossus? Saying you can get tech lab at same time you are getting ghost academy means you aren't pumping out marauders (where as a protoss can pump units out of his gateway while teching up to colossus). A ghost is a support unit it can't really kill anything alone, it's only good for emp, after that his dmg is so pathetic. There is no point in rushing to ghosts (a support unit) when the ghost can't even kill the protoss' units that have no shield after emp. Also you are still forgetting that protoss can chrono boost the colossus out. Long story short.. it doesn't matter how fast terran can get a ghost out.. without marauders the ghost can't effectively kill anything the protoss has. And emp is more effective vs a clump of 20 units mid game than vs 1 stalker early game. Rushing to fast ghosts means you will be lacking marauders and can be easily overrun by a protoss that spots your lack of army. And early game a terran is going to have a limited amount of ghosts and energy thus limited amount of EMPs, which you can easily limit the damage taken from emp by simply spreading your units out.
It's still not the point. You have two sides to this. Nobody goes into a fight with a single collosus either. As many minerals/gas that the Terran pumps into his army the Toss has to match assuming both players are equally skilled and the races are balanced. The time/money spent to tech up collosi is higher than ghosts. The person I was talking to said you need Collosi to beat ghosts, I was simply pointing out how that's not exactly the best solution. It's like saying the you should get a mothership to counter a ling rush.
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Nerf everything in this game thats good.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break.
Edit: Isn't this pretty much an imbalance thread? Don't the new forum posting rules clearly state that there must be substantial evidence (via replays) that an imbalance exists? This thread is a waste of time and hopefully gets closed.
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On May 04 2010 04:05 WoKKeLs wrote:
lol this so sounds like omfg i cant A wall over a army like i'm able to do in PvZ anymore this needs a FIX!!! such bull lol if there's one thing that should be changed its the viability of every single unit that protoss can produce.
this cannot be more true, the 2nd part of your statement anyway. but lets take that into perspective.
yes zealots can be upgraded to have charge, yes stalkers can be upgraded to have blink, yes HTs can upgrade to have storm, that's amazing is it not?
lets look at that.
stim is for your entire bio ball, excluding ghosts, off 1 upgrade.
legs is 200/200 already matching stim, and not as game changing if both sides have reached critical mass. and you'd have tech labs anyway for multiple (concussive/stim/shield) upgrades at the same time, honestly if i had to build two citadels, and it saved my ass, and i can sustain the research/build/unit econ, i'd do it, but it's simply not the case.
blink is nice for up the ledge sniping gimmicks, and/or stalker heavy blink micro both singular or all blink. but without these upgrades, where's the viability?
so yea i appreciate and see the fact that if toss reaches midmid or midlate game on par with terran, their basic units become more viable after research, but this thread is focusing on early mid game, which is usually when games end. i can be massing up voidrays for late game for all you know and just with a couple of zealots and stalkers it'll rip through thor bio army, but that's not the timeframe we are talking about here because i don't think more than 10% of the games make it past the 3~4 base setting.
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On May 04 2010 04:11 ploy wrote:
Nerf everything in this game thats good.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break.
Hmm defilers, Tier 3, Storm Tier 3, By the time you got Critical mass of mech Tier 3.
Not seeing where your different times where. Yes if you rushed Tier 3 it would be different timing, but that could be done on the opposite.
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Open with voidrays, and transition into colossus spam.
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On May 04 2010 04:14 Deathwizard77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:11 ploy wrote:
Nerf everything in this game thats good.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break. Hmm defilers, Tier 3, Storm Tier 3, By the time you got Critical mass of mech Tier 3. Not seeing where your different times where. Yes if you rushed Tier 3 it would be different timing, but that could be done on the opposite.
ZvT standard openings:
1) Both races fast expand, terran gains map control as soon as medics come out and can pressure Z a little bit forcing him to make a couple sunkens/lings.
2) Mutas come out and swing map control 100% back to zerg, where zerg can take his 3rd while harassing T and forcing him to stay in his base while tech switching to lurkers so he can eventually fight in straight up battles.
3) Science vessel comes out and map control swings back to terran. Zerg must delay terran's movement as much as possible and defend his 3rd and be very careful about drops. Terran takes 3rd.
4) Defilers come out and now its time for terran to try to delay zerg's army as much as possible. Terran needs to start making several factories for tanks vs ultras/swarm.
See the beautiful dynamic in ZvT's? It's all because of very powerful units coming out at different timings. In the end game a huge ball of vessels can totally rape and be overpowered vs a lesser zerg, but it is possible for zerg to do whatever it takes to keep the vessel count down. If we had replayed the progression of this matchup today we'd have all of these new people who just came to TL crying imbalance at every map control swing stage of the game. First it'd be M&M too much dps when stimmed and hard to kill with lings/hydras. Then it'd be whining about how impossible it is to stop muta harass. Then it'd be how ridiculously powerful a big ball of science vessels can be. Then it'd be "omg how is it fair that zerg gets invulnerable units with swarm?" etc. etc.
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I agree that EMP should be nerfed. If we make the mean of the units' hp's and shields of an average protoss army, an EMP basically takes out 1/3 to 2/3 of it's total life points. I seriously don't know how some people consider that balanced.
Spreading out units is not pratical. On a battle besides the economy, but that applies to both players, the terran has nothing to do but micro the units. The protoss has not only to micro the units which for a protoss is even more critical due to high cost of their units, but also to think about all unit skills to use, if it's the time to use a storm, force fields, if and where to place them, etc. On top of that some people say that protosses should spread their army... seriously. if there was a button that automatically made that ok, but not manually no.
There is no doubt that EMP should be nerfed all that disagree just need to think a little more and put themselves in the protoss shoes a bit more.
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EPT
