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Conris
United States79 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:01 4Servy wrote: Wether or the emp is overpowerd or not, you could argue the match up is kinda broken when the balance of entire match up basicly lies in a few good emps or a ghost snipe. i don't think in any PvT matches T only wins because there are ghosts... | ||
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smore
United States156 Posts
On May 04 2010 04:56 Conris wrote: the game starts for protoss after the 1st stalker is out, and if reapers don't come, it's FORCED to run up to terran and try to zap something rather than just sit there and look pretty, it did cost 125/50. but that's ok, because reaper is a cool unit and i personally really like it, however not long after the ghost is out, furthermore giving T the handle on the game, without doing anything whatsoever. that's what the issue is, there's nothing wrong with reapers other than that toss is forced to open the exact same way or they just might die 3 minutes into the game. protoss are usually forced to open stalker first anyways in order to snipe the scouting scv because a zealot simply wont do i do agree that protoss are generally forced to open this way, unless theyre doing some 2 gate rush or a proxy, but opening stalker first doesnt put you at a disadvantage because you can then transition in 4gate/2 gate robo/void ray/ht once the scouting scv/early reaper is dead | ||
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Precipice
United States121 Posts
2. You have forcefield. If you don't want to be attacked, use forcefield on your ramp. Or, use forcefield on the Terran's ramp and expand to high yield. 3. Huk agrees with all of you that Terran is too strong. His voidray, sentry, zealot push is clearly dominated by ghosts. 4. Instead of trusting the game to be broken, trust the game to be fixed and learn counters. This situation is not 1/10th as dismal as you think it is. 5. There is no point in theorycrafting in this thread because no one has yet made even a sufficient discussion of timing as it actually plays out. 6. Seriously, you can put a forcefield on your ramp. How do you lose so quickly? If you want to say terran can get medivacs etc, why don't you have HT or colossus yet? 7. If you think that EMP is severely broken or unfair then it is far more likely that you need to change something significant about how you are currently playing the game. Do you still use the first build order you ever learned? The same unit composition? There is yet to be a truly established metagame, you should be prepared to change a lot. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On May 04 2010 02:40 Craz wrote: That makes no sense, why would you count a pylon as you can build all those buildings in your first pylon that you got around 10 food, or are we talking about a terran who NEVER gets supply depots and rushes straight to ghost?. And you didn't add in tech addon / energy regen. And you forgot chrono boosting. it makes perfect sense.... everything in both builds is geared towards getting out target unit ASAP. therefore terran builds a barracks before a supply depot, its not in the calculations cause they can be built concurrently. you cant build a gateway without a pylon. likewise the assimilator/refinery build times for both races have been omitted, OC is gone as well. tech lab is again built concurrently with the other tech and doesnt slow you down, while all of the toss tech listed must be built one after the other. Btw, the only thing that can be chrono boosted is the collosus, and that takes ~20 seconds off of it and time it takes to get 25 energy is like 30 seconds, so we still get Terran:170 Protoss: 260 If we take ghost vs HT Pylon 25 Gateway 65 Cyber 50 Twilight 50 Archives 50 Storm 110(~80 with 3 chrono boosts) Templar 5(55) (~35 with 2x chrono) (5 with warp gate) Total Build Time ~325 assuming constant chrono and warpgate research Terran: still 170 so theres just a little bit of discrepancy between the time a ghost comes out and can emp and a toss has any type of adequate counter. obviously both races build other units in the mean time but we can assume that the money spend on those is approximately even, so a direct comparison works somewhat decently. This isnt even accounting for the fact that the toss must spend ALOT more in money in gas to get their unit out compared to the terran, just looking at the two lists easily 2-3X in min/gas i play random in plat(~15) btw and have my easiest wins vs toss using emp+marauders, in before anyone tries to flame me for being a copper/bronze player that doesnt understand anything. | ||
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Conris
United States79 Posts
correction is that there is a projectile on the EMP skill, of mere milliseconds. the range is generally the same however the AOE is the offset, if you have a HT and a ghost go head to head with EMP and FB, i think the milliseconds is the difference with FE going off or not, so the conclusion is, EMP is going off, so is FB, but that defeats the purpose because you're supposed to prevent that EMP. and that HT move slower and are generally further back, same as ghost, however HT only has 1 target, the ghost, where as regardless where the EMP lands it'll do the damage. so that's the range issue aside. also tested out hellucination (however you spell that) it's...actually not that bad, the time of which it lasts will be more than useful throughout an entire fight, but the damage taken multiplier gives that away quite easily, but then again, it's useful enough to be used. so the conclusion is, FE will probably hit the ghost, at the sametime the EMP goes off, even if the ghost sits at 200 energy where after 75 EMP it'll die from the FE, the damage is done. it can rest in peace. where as the HT can't do anything after the FE or even if it has storm, there generally won't be enough energy to do it(assuming it doesn't get hit by EMP) so i think the feedback discussion can end about now, because killing a ghost that has already done it's job doesn't help (maybe mid/late midgame where HT has storm or you have a bigger army to sustain EMP, but again this thread deals with early mid game. | ||
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Conris
United States79 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:24 Precipice wrote: 1. Joseki along with others have referenced the fact that terran going 3 rax marauders does not adequately compete with a 4 gate opening. It is sufficiently counterable so effectively by protoss that it does not seem like it can last in TvP metagame as things currently stand. 2. You have forcefield. If you don't want to be attacked, use forcefield on your ramp. Or, use forcefield on the Terran's ramp and expand to high yield. 3. Huk agrees with all of you that Terran is too strong. His voidray, sentry, zealot push is clearly dominated by ghosts. 4. Instead of trusting the game to be broken, trust the game to be fixed and learn counters. This situation is not 1/10th as dismal as you think it is. 5. There is no point in theorycrafting in this thread because no one has yet made even a sufficient discussion of timing as it actually plays out. 6. Seriously, you can put a forcefield on your ramp. How do you lose so quickly? If you want to say terran can get medivacs etc, why don't you have HT or colossus yet? 7. If you think that EMP is severely broken or unfair then it is far more likely that you need to change something significant about how you are currently playing the game. Do you still use the first build order you ever learned? The same unit composition? There is yet to be a truly established metagame, you should be prepared to change a lot. yes FF your own ramp stops you from dying, but not your expo medivacs in comparison to colossi and HT timing and cost? are you kidding me? and this thread is really about the few that are giving input on counters and changes in composition, if you haven't lightly skimmed through it. EMP is fine as the mechanic it is, just not the timing. in comparison, in SC1 vessel sniping off lurkers and defilers is insane, but it comes at a later stage, where you can deal with it or be able to sustain the loss of your lurkers and defilers, and it's still very hardhitting even when you're able to replenish those units, that's not the case with SC2 EMP. that is the point of this thread. not that it needs to be nerfed to 100 energy, or that it needs to have a smaller AOE, but the timing of it. can you imagine colossi availability without the supportbay? where it snipes your entire army from afar with a mere robo bay? no, that would be broken. however ghosts have the same effectiveness as the ridiculous example just mentioned, so please read SOME of the posts on this thread that are constructive before throwing in "don't nerf, play better, deal with it" responses. | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:24 Precipice wrote: 1. Joseki along with others have referenced the fact that terran going 3 rax marauders does not adequately compete with a 4 gate opening. It is sufficiently counterable so effectively by protoss that it does not seem like it can last in TvP metagame as things currently stand. 2. You have forcefield. If you don't want to be attacked, use forcefield on your ramp. Or, use forcefield on the Terran's ramp and expand to high yield. 3. Huk agrees with all of you that Terran is too strong. His voidray, sentry, zealot push is clearly dominated by ghosts. 4. Instead of trusting the game to be broken, trust the game to be fixed and learn counters. This situation is not 1/10th as dismal as you think it is. 5. There is no point in theorycrafting in this thread because no one has yet made even a sufficient discussion of timing as it actually plays out. 6. Seriously, you can put a forcefield on your ramp. How do you lose so quickly? If you want to say terran can get medivacs etc, why don't you have HT or colossus yet? 7. If you think that EMP is severely broken or unfair then it is far more likely that you need to change something significant about how you are currently playing the game. Do you still use the first build order you ever learned? The same unit composition? There is yet to be a truly established metagame, you should be prepared to change a lot. I agree with your post but you used the word metagame wrong. Metagame does not mean strategy. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:33 Conris wrote: yes FF your own ramp stops you from dying, but not your expo medivacs in comparison to colossi and HT timing and cost? are you kidding me? and this thread is really about the few that are giving input on counters and changes in composition, if you haven't lightly skimmed through it. EMP is fine as the mechanic it is, just not the timing. in comparison, in SC1 vessel sniping off lurkers and defilers is insane, but it comes at a later stage, where you can deal with it or be able to sustain the loss of your lurkers and defilers, and it's still very hardhitting even when you're able to replenish those units, that's not the case with SC2 EMP. that is the point of this thread. not that it needs to be nerfed to 100 energy, or that it needs to have a smaller AOE, but the timing of it. can you imagine colossi availability without the supportbay? where it snipes your entire army from afar with a mere robo bay? no, that would be broken. however ghosts have the same effectiveness as the ridiculous example just mentioned, so please read SOME of the posts on this thread that are constructive before throwing in "don't nerf, play better, deal with it" responses. Your issue is the timing? Really? 150 gas is quite an investment that early on and I feel like one EMP early on doesn't make much of a difference in the first fight. Have you seen many games end with the first ghost? | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:28 Conris wrote: just tested emp with a buddy against feedback correction is that there is a projectile on the EMP skill, of mere milliseconds. the range is generally the same however the AOE is the offset, if you have a HT and a ghost go head to head with EMP and FB, i think the milliseconds is the difference with FE going off or not, so the conclusion is, EMP is going off, so is FB, but that defeats the purpose because you're supposed to prevent that EMP. and that HT move slower and are generally further back, same as ghost, however HT only has 1 target, the ghost, where as regardless where the EMP lands it'll do the damage. so that's the range issue aside. also tested out hellucination (however you spell that) it's...actually not that bad, the time of which it lasts will be more than useful throughout an entire fight, but the damage taken multiplier gives that away quite easily, but then again, it's useful enough to be used. so the conclusion is, FE will probably hit the ghost, at the sametime the EMP goes off, even if the ghost sits at 200 energy where after 75 EMP it'll die from the FE, the damage is done. it can rest in peace. where as the HT can't do anything after the FE or even if it has storm, there generally won't be enough energy to do it(assuming it doesn't get hit by EMP) so i think the feedback discussion can end about now, because killing a ghost that has already done it's job doesn't help (maybe mid/late midgame where HT has storm or you have a bigger army to sustain EMP, but again this thread deals with early mid game. So just to be clear, you made a thread complaining about EMP without knowing what happens when a HT and a ghost try to feedback and EMP each other at the same time? You should research and test these things before creating a thread saying how the game is broken. Also, you haven't posted any replays, so it's impossible to give you feedback on the strategy you're using. My guess is that you are clumping units, but again, without a replay it's impossible to know for sure. This entire thread is just a bunch of theory-crafting and pointless debate. There hasn't been a single replay posted by anyone. | ||
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Kezzer
United States1268 Posts
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Conris
United States79 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:38 Corwin wrote: So just to be clear, you made a thread complaining about EMP without knowing what happens when a HT and a ghost try to feedback and EMP each other at the same time? You should research and test these things before creating a thread saying how the game is broken. Also, you haven't posted any replays, so it's impossible to give you feedback on the strategy you're using. My guess is that you are clumping units, but again, without a replay it's impossible to know for sure. This entire thread is just a bunch of theory-crafting and pointless debate. There hasn't been a single replay posted by anyone. i wish posts would cluster up or somehow simplify itself so theories of which get tested don't need to be repeatedly posted. the reason for the actual test is because that seems like to be the general ideas people throw around to counter ghosts. the reason why it's not even bothered to be tested is because of how long it takes to get a HT out, yes if you teched all the way up to HT at the cost of DT herrang, fine, but the time it takes to get a single templar out is not the same as a ghost, hence it not being an effective EARLY MID game counter, as said more than enough times throughout this thread. however if the matter must be pressed, then we should test it, and that is what i have just done. so the conclusion of the testing AFTER this thread agrees with the ASSUMPTION previous to the thread, HT are not effective with feedback against ghosts, so what is the problem here? without theory crafting there will be no ideas for testing, this thread is once again mentioned many many times, not to cry about EMP, but ways to deal with it, it started with sentries being EMPed early game where FF and probably 3~5 zealots is the force to deal with the bio ball, then came the counters to the EMP, which are HT of which are not anywhere close to being made at that stage of the game. so please if you have constructive input or advice, do share. | ||
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JreL209
United States78 Posts
On May 04 2010 01:53 BurnMage wrote: I'll trade you EMP for storm and forcefield and immortal hardened shield then. deal? No lie, I'd rather take what Protoss have over EMP lol Last I checked EMP is a trip pony vs one race. | ||
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Talia
Germany64 Posts
They rather should change the storm and make it stronger and give it an better range Just my oppinion | ||
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Conris
United States79 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:38 Chill wrote: Your issue is the timing? Really? 150 gas is quite an investment that early on and I feel like one EMP early on doesn't make much of a difference in the first fight. Have you seen many games end with the first ghost? the game doesn't necessarily end right away, and i've played mainly Terran before the swap to toss, i know the setbacks of pumping out that first ghost, generally only have a handful of marines and possibly 2 marauders. it won't end the game in terms of taking out their base, but it will push back whatever it is toss has, if not killing a good portion of it. the timing is my issue because even if you have a small force in comparison to the general huge bio balls running around nowadays and that people have grown used to it. the army cost and food is not the same, but with a ghost in the mix, terran is able to again, push back or kill off a more expensive and food heavy army, with 75 energy. that's perfectly fine to play out, but that early on in the game it becomes quite confusing if that's the idea of it, for terran to have map control with a smaller army(not in numbers but in minerals/gas/food) | ||
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Conris
United States79 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:48 Talia wrote: I don't believe they have to change the EMP They rather should change the storm and make it stronger and give it an better range Just my oppinion storm is fine =) just takes a while to get to it, hence timing being the big issue that this thread reall talks about, clustered units = nom nom nom storm...if you ever get to getting it out | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:45 Conris wrote: i wish posts would cluster up or somehow simplify itself so theories of which get tested don't need to be repeatedly posted. the reason for the actual test is because that seems like to be the general ideas people throw around to counter ghosts. the reason why it's not even bothered to be tested is because of how long it takes to get a HT out, yes if you teched all the way up to HT at the cost of DT herrang, fine, but the time it takes to get a single templar out is not the same as a ghost, hence it not being an effective EARLY MID game counter, as said more than enough times throughout this thread. however if the matter must be pressed, then we should test it, and that is what i have just done. so the conclusion of the testing AFTER this thread agrees with the ASSUMPTION previous to the thread, HT are not effective with feedback against ghosts, so what is the problem here? without theory crafting there will be no ideas for testing, this thread is once again mentioned many many times, not to cry about EMP, but ways to deal with it, it started with sentries being EMPed early game where FF and probably 3~5 zealots is the force to deal with the bio ball, then came the counters to the EMP, which are HT of which are not anywhere close to being made at that stage of the game. so please if you have constructive input or advice, do share. The problem is that you're conclusion is wrong. Feedback works against ghosts (although it is fairly micro intensive). It sounds to me like your trying to cast feedback from a HT that is clumped with the rest of your army. You should be keeping one or two HTs on your army's flank and you should periodically attempt to snipe ghosts with them. I'd be happy to provide more constructive feedback, but you haven't provided any replays demonstrating your problem. Also, the fact that HT are at a higher tech than ghosts is irrelevant. If the Terran has a ghost heavy army midgame, you can't push out against him. It's that simple. There are a ton of timings in which a Terran cannot push against a Protoss. The time between mass ghosts and Templar/Collosi tech is simply a timing in which Protoss can't push against a Terran. | ||
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Lafer
United States114 Posts
My units were clumped in a ball (I had never seen a ghost when playing Terran up to that point), and I had no Collossus. I am 100% sure that, had I had some collossus with me, it would have turned out differently, even if they had gotten EMP'd, too. I had more units, but no collossus. Having seen how it played out, I think EMP is ok, as it was due to my error that I lost. I agree with the people who state that we need to learn how to counter it by playing better. | ||
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:01 4Servy wrote: Wether or the emp is overpowerd or not, you could argue the match up is kinda broken when the balance of entire match up basicly lies in a few good emps or a ghost snipe. ^ This. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote: I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault. Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game. Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses. | ||
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DGMavn
United States48 Posts
Do you have your entire army on one control group? My guess is yes. Get better at this game. | ||
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