I'm having issues with EMP not because it takes pretty much half my army's sustainable HP away, but because of it's ridiculous AOE and cast range.
against any marine marauder army, Toss would be going sentry heavy with zealots at early stage of the game, however even with charge, the zealots get kited without sentries throwing down forcefields. so this is where the problem starts to become serious.
ghosts EMPs your sentries and they become utterly useless with their 40 HP and their 4 slow dmg of 5 range, they're kind of like a crappier voidray with no superduper rip everything apart charge beam mode. so this EMP to energy thing is becoming...a little out of hand? EMPing HT is a different story, not only does EMP outrange feedback, but it's an AOE, i believe there are already many threads about EMP vs HT. so lets not talk about it too much here.
but this thread is focused on sentries being EMPed. the fact that Toss has a melee line, unlike terran where you can just 1group backstep micro (lets say EMP had an effect on terran somehow, and you attempt to fake it or dodge it.) so there's pretty much no way to dodge the EMP unless you pull out of the fight before it even starts, and maybe an EMP goes off, at the cost of maybe 2~3 zealots (concussive), you still lose the fight.
EMP is only 75 energy as well, so lets take EMP into consideration versus the HT storm briefly.
at 75 energy, storm costs 200/200 to research, and is tier 3. at 75 energy, EMP doesn't need to be researched, is tier 2
templars have slow movement speed, do not attack ghosts have normal movement speed, does attack
EMP is an instant aoe with 100-to shield (so the minimum damage would be 40 to sentries not including energy drain)
Storm is AoE DoT 80 dmg over 4 seconds, no energy drain.
So how did a researched spell, excuse me, an expensive researched spell be less effective (by ridiculous measures) than an equal energy cost, lesser tier unit, lesser tier spell? (yes i know EMP isn't that effective against Zerg or Terran, but there are still caster units, and hell, nukes are only 100/100, even if it doesn't go off, they lose micro and macro time. and HTs, well, we get archons, yay? (see archon thread)).
so back on topic, with sentries versus ghosts, does toss have to steer away from zealot sentry immortal armies and open with Voidrays regardless of what the terran is doing? it seems like people favor 1racks expo into 4 racks marauders nowadays anyway. but any bio army with a ghost or two or three just demolishes toss ground armies not because of marauders, nor because of EMP to shields, but because sentries become completely useless.
i play pure protoss and so my views on this are gonna be biased, but i agree, i think EMP needs a nerf, it makes sense to have it in the game but its a tad too strong in my opinion, my solution would be to make it researchable in the fusion building thing so that it comes out late game PvT like in the original, if that turns out to make it useless, at least put it in the ghost building with all the other stuff.
On May 04 2010 01:52 MANquistador wrote: Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it.
Pretty much sums up the T side of the argument.
You'll now hear variations on "spead your units out," and "FF needs a serious nerf," for the next few pages of replies. Enjoy.
Let me know when we get to the part about high templar and ghosts. I'm making popcorn.
I agree with you Conris. The ghost have to be nerfed. The problem is, that it is not an over time attack, your army is fucked up immediately. It should be over time, or doing less "damage". The research thing would also be an nice alternative.
On May 04 2010 01:52 MANquistador wrote: Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it.
Pretty much sums up the T side of the argument.
You'll now hear variations on "spead your units out," and "FF needs a serious nerf," for the next few pages of replies. Enjoy.
Let me know when we get to the part about high templar and ghosts. I'm making popcorn.
On May 04 2010 01:52 MANquistador wrote: Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it.
Pretty much sums up the T side of the argument.
You'll now hear variations on "spead your units out," and "FF needs a serious nerf," for the next few pages of replies. Enjoy.
Let me know when we get to the part about high templar and ghosts. I'm making popcorn.
lol
Its fine as it is atm.
I never said it wasn't fine. I just get really amused at the debate (mostly because, we've been discussing the ghost/emp stuff since the first beta build).
So EMP is only good vs protoss, but psi storm can be used effectively vs all races. Therefore psi storm is like a jack of all trades, works vs everything sometimes really good, sometimes lackluster but nevertheless it works vs everything. Therefore EMP which is only good vs protoss has to be equal or better than psi storm.
Guess what psi storm can still own a bio terran. How do I prevent it from owning me? I spread out. This is exactly what you should do vs emp. If you watch high level protoss you'll see them spread their army out vs emp. You can't just expect to clump 40 units together and A-Move and expect to win everytime, if you could MM vs lurker would have been a lot easier :D
On May 04 2010 02:18 Craz wrote: So EMP is only good vs protoss, but psi storm can be used effectively vs all races. Therefore psi storm is like a jack of all trades, works vs everything sometimes really good, sometimes lackluster but nevertheless it works vs everything. Therefore EMP which is only good vs protoss has to be equal or better than psi storm.
Guess what psi storm can still own a bio terran. How do I prevent it from owning me? I spread out. This is exactly what you should do vs emp. If you watch high level protoss you'll see them spread their army out vs emp. You can't just expect to clump 40 units together and A-Move and expect to win everytime, if you could MM vs lurker would have been a lot easier :D
Storm is equal to emp. Storm isn't as effective vs. Terran because of emp in much the same way colossi are less effective vs. Z because of infestors. The counter-unit isn't difficult to use, and has equal or greater range.
Is EMP a little better than storm? Yea, probably. Does that mean the matchup is imba and T>>>P? Nope.
So far I have faced 2 terrans in a row that quick tech to ghosts and marauders/marines. How do you counter this ball if I have commited to sentry/zealot/stalker and 1 or 2 immortal at beginning of game? I am not talking about late game or mid gamewhere I have colossus or templars, I am talking about maybe 5-6 minute into the game, where he already has 2 ghosts and pushes.
As a toss player, I don't think emp can be compared with storm. Its like apples and oranges. Emp is only effective vs toss. Storm is effective against everything. Also, you can kill units with storm where as you cannot with emp. I've seen mass templar but never mass ghost.
On May 04 2010 01:52 MANquistador wrote: Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it.
Pretty much sums up the T side of the argument.
You'll now hear variations on "spead your units out," and "FF needs a serious nerf," for the next few pages of replies. Enjoy.
Let me know when we get to the part about high templar and ghosts. I'm making popcorn.
haha, yea, i wasn't too sure if i wanted to make a thread about this, but honestly, telling me to spread my casters out really doesn't help when half or more than half of midgame entry units for toss are caster/dps with 5 range.
when you have zeal/sentry, tell me how not to clump them? it's not like HTs in the mix where their placement actually matters, but sentries are actually the main DPS against terran early mid game.
but yes i'm ready for the flaming, maybe one out of a hundred responses will be worth reading.
in response, guardian shield really doesn't matter at this point, and yes it should be used before engagement, but it doesn't help when they kite your zealots of which are out of GS range.
On May 04 2010 02:10 Rakanishu2 wrote: Collosus and spread them out. Tada!
Barracks 60 Academy 40 Ghost 40 Total Build Time 140
Pylon 25 Gateway 65 Cyber 50 Robotics 65 Collosus 75 Total Build Time 280
Just sayin'
I saw Orb do this (at least I think it was him) where he pushes into the T base, then once the EMP hits he pulls back to his proxy pylon and proxies more units. He doesn't that a total of 3 times then when the Terran is out of energy he waits for his shields to recharge and pushes in. High Templars are still viable against them but are a Tier 2.5 since you have to research storm. Really just make sure your important units are spread out making him decide then try to micro any immortals/collosi back that got hit.
I think if they made Terrans have to research emp, maybe 200/150 for 50 seconds it would still be just as viable vs Toss. It is quite off when you compare the two skills side be side.
you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
On May 04 2010 02:18 Craz wrote: So EMP is only good vs protoss, but psi storm can be used effectively vs all races. Therefore psi storm is like a jack of all trades, works vs everything sometimes really good, sometimes lackluster but nevertheless it works vs everything. Therefore EMP which is only good vs protoss has to be equal or better than psi storm.
Guess what psi storm can still own a bio terran. How do I prevent it from owning me? I spread out. This is exactly what you should do vs emp. If you watch high level protoss you'll see them spread their army out vs emp. You can't just expect to clump 40 units together and A-Move and expect to win everytime, if you could MM vs lurker would have been a lot easier :D
Storm is equal to emp. Storm isn't as effective vs. Terran because of emp in much the same way colossi are less effective vs. Z because of infestors. The counter-unit isn't difficult to use, and has equal or greater range.
Is EMP a little better than storm? Yea, probably. Does that mean the matchup is imba and T>>>P? Nope.
they aren't equal, at all.
i realize that EMP is only at maximum effectiveness against toss, and not against Zerg or Terran, but yea, so let's have this skill demolish 1 race, because it's meant for them solely, so i guess toss players should feel special? hence the argument doesn't make sense.
colossi are very effective against zerg, infesters get sniped easily, unless you just leave them alone for whatever reason.
having a nuke, and a AoE DoT that is not like fungal where you can't dodge it's full dmg, they cannot be equal, please, just because they're both AoE (Area of Effect) spell, does not make them equal, i cannot emphasize that enough.
yes Psi storm is useful against all races (don't see it much against toss, simply because unit counts aren't as high as the other two races) however, if you don't play toss, try it with a friend where you rush for HTs, then have them throw 1 storm each, and tell me how the rest of the game goes. (assuming the initial pushes and pokes don't gg you already since you have next to no sentries vs terran).
so lets please move away from the paperworks, and test this stuff out from both sides, because i have and make this discussion somewhat constructive.
Zealots with sentrys and good FF RAPES MMMG then toss on colos or HT's and its not even close. Toss up a big wall of FF back off out of range hit them with colo and storm and keep doing till you run out of eng or he is dead.
EMP is fine and Storm is fine and to everyone in threat saying t > p LOL at you
Barracks 60 Academy 40 Ghost 40 Total Build Time 140
Pylon 25 Gateway 65 Cyber 50 Robotics 65 Collosus 75 Total Build Time 280
That makes no sense, why would you count a pylon as you can build all those buildings in your first pylon that you got around 10 food, or are we talking about a terran who NEVER gets supply depots and rushes straight to ghost?. And you didn't add in tech addon / energy regen. And you forgot chrono boosting.
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
sorry to disappoint you but i don't play in copper =( and this thread was not about emp vs immortal, it wasn't even mentioned, idk where you got the idea. but since you brought it up, immortals don't need to be EMPed, the shield gets broken faster that you'd think.
like i said, terran who choose to EMP sentries instead of zealots, rip right through the FF advantage.
neither has this thread said anything about EMP too strong, but the timing of EMP possibly entering the fight makes the fights afterwards very linear for toss, without more units to be able to sustain the EMP, it would almost be gg.
so...if you must know, i play in platinum, before and after each reset, platinum for 2v2 as well, so if you must troll, pick one of those 100 posts you referred me to before you troll here, and thank you, enjoy TL yourself too!
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time.
On May 04 2010 02:28 HoroBoro wrote: Emp is only effective vs toss. Storm is effective against everything.
Why does this pop up so much? This is retarded.. If protoss had a unit that could cause chaos and confusion in enemies so they start attacking themselves and their brains explode.. and if it worked only against zerg then it would be fine? emp does it all.. remove shields, energy, reveals dts and observers and its free on a lower tier unit than templar that also has its own attack and cloak and other stuff.. and ghost is harder to see among mm than floating templars that leave a trail.
this is true - i chose not to read the entire thread due to the subject. And when i was saying "you must be in copper" i was really meaning you as in people who post these posts... not as direct as you may have taken it.
But to say Immortals don't need to be emp'd.. lol I mean come on now. Have you played as Terran? I honest'y have never said to myself "damn those sentries, i need emp" Any slightly heavy sentry army I've always made hellions for.
Don't be to defensive, it wasn't a personal attack. It was more an attack towards the bunch of badly informed players (lol even non players) that post "OMG THIS IS TRUE" stuff..when it isn't at all.
but none the less US SERVER; griM.reaper - add me up
I don't understand the issue here. There are plenty of things you can do to reduce the effectiveness of ghosts as protoss. Most of them were already mentioned. In my experience a protoss player can have appropriate tech counters (something to kill marines/mara/ghosts be it storm or colo) by the time the bio ball reaches dangerous levels, so I'm not really sure what you mean when you talk about timing.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). .
You know EMP is dodgeable right? Its an AOE spell and not a Target spell. Have you used it as Terran vs a good protoss player? Just curious.
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time.
no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button.
ghost is strong against all p warpgate units.. but if you can just sit in ur base until u got 1-2 collusus + range .. the tables turn drastically. even with 3 vikings per collusus (1 collusus = almost 3 viking in resources) its still pretty much impossible to win a full on collision. the only thing the t can do to counter this is possibly use thors and drop ships to get thors in range of collusus and use their special ability though i have not yet been able to test this and i could see the thors being focus fired down i cant seem to win lategame vs p so forced to early push with mm+ghost.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). .
You know EMP is dodgeable right? Its an AOE spell and not a Target spell. Have you used it as Terran vs a good protoss player? Just curious.
You can mitigate or prevent EMP, you cannot dodge it. It is instant cast.
Personally it would seem that this thread has slowly degenerated into protoss players screaming about how overpowered EMP is, while terran players complain about forcefield.
I feel that neither are overpowered really (terran player). While protoss may feel ghost EMP is overpowered, they cost a large chunk of gas and are relatively fragile, not to mention you can easily feedback them. If a protoss is negligent enough to cluster all his casters in one bunch and eat a ninja EMP or any EMP in general, then that's completely his fault (for not spreading up casters/watching for ghosts). Plus, if the terran starts producing tons of ghosts, they're most likely cutting upgrades/units such as vikings/medivacs due to the gas cost.
Even with forcefields, in an open battle it takes a lot of energy/sentries to produce enough forcefields to completely trap a terran army. The only slight issue I have with forcefield is its ability to trap an army inside ones base, allowing the protoss to raze the natural (but even then you can lift off). No issues with protoss using sentries to block their own ramp though, because they're trading map control for security.
Also, immortals are also fine in-my-opinion, but, it would be great if Blizzard could find a way to make tanks in TvP slightly more viable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). .
You know EMP is dodgeable right? Its an AOE spell and not a Target spell. Have you used it as Terran vs a good protoss player? Just curious.
On May 04 2010 02:54 Graham wrote: Personally it would seem that this thread has slowly degenerated into protoss players screaming about how overpowered EMP is, while terran players complain about forcefield.
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time.
no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button.
So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed?
This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it.
TBH i believe that EMP should get a small radius nerf and half the dmg -100 mp on units and now that the T players have gone berserk about what i say,in return EMP should clear forcefields inside their radius.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). .
You know EMP is dodgeable right? Its an AOE spell and not a Target spell. Have you used it as Terran vs a good protoss player? Just curious.
you mean like a fake poke, make them use up the EMP? when half your army is melee, and the other half needs to be babied and not get EMPed? sure i guess i can try that, and lose a zealot everytime he doesn't EMP because concussive shells land on a zealot (it's fine, that's just how it is)
in response to the post before about not EMPing the sentries and getting hellions for them, try it, you will be amazed at how weak the zealot/sentry army becomes.
and yes i've played terran, for a while before the swap anyway, at the rate that marauders shoot, and the numbers of marauders versus the number of possible immortals, each hit is 10 hp, adding on the marine dmg (i say this because immortals usually get focused down) the shield is gone in any focus fire situation before probably the 4th shot or even the 3rd shot goes off (stimmed bio, well, nothing to say there). i can understand if you have a line of tanks and 2 immortals charge in all the way, but that's not the case.
so back to the point, if there were another viable effective way in PvT that steers away from sentries to avoid a lucky or well placed EMP, i'd love to try it out, for those that would like to flame, this is not QQ, imo Ghost EMP on sentry is simply a 1up because zeal sentry have been raping bio balls with small or no medivacs. so now how does toss respond or even 1up the sentry EMP situation?
On May 04 2010 02:54 Graham wrote: Personally it would seem that this thread has slowly degenerated into protoss players screaming about how overpowered EMP is, while terran players complain about forcefield.
I feel that neither are overpowered really (terran player). While protoss may feel ghost EMP is overpowered, they cost a large chunk of gas and are relatively fragile, not to mention you can easily feedback them. If a protoss is negligent enough to cluster all his casters in one bunch and eat a ninja EMP or any EMP in general, then that's completely his fault (for not spreading up casters/watching for ghosts). Plus, if the terran starts producing tons of ghosts, they're most likely cutting upgrades/units such as vikings/medivacs due to the gas cost.
Even with forcefields, in an open battle it takes a lot of energy/sentries to produce enough forcefields to completely trap a terran army. The only slight issue I have with forcefield is its ability to trap an army inside ones base, allowing the protoss to raze the natural (but even then you can lift off). No issues with protoss using sentries to block their own ramp though, because they're trading map control for security.
Also, immortals are also fine in-my-opinion, but, it would be great if Blizzard could find a way to make tanks in TvP slightly more viable.
when the first ghost pops out, HTs are still learning how to storm, if you choose to rush for a citadel. and i do believe feedback is out of range, though i'd have to really try that.
unit counter skill counters are nice, but the timing just doesn't work that way.
as said before, i think EMP is fine, and please don't cry here P, find a way to skip or lower sentry counts in PvT in early midgame.
"you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas.. "
Your response is fail, considering supply depots aren't part of the tech tree to ghosts and therefore don't need to be factored in to the time-order to ghosts.
Anyways, Conris...
I'm also a Protoss player, and it's really frustrating when Terrans rush Marine/Marauder with Ghosts. But that's because I recognize that I often clump my units too closely together, making the EMP devastating. If we split them up more, it would lessen the effects of EMP and we could get better surrounds on the Terran units. It's not that EMP is imbalanced; it's that we need to deal with it appropriately. I honestly think that EMP is all right AS IS. That includes energy cost, radius, and everything else.
Too many people rush to say "Unit X or Ability Y is imbalanced!" instead of reflecting on what they could possibly have done differently when encountering Unit X or Ability Y.
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time.
no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button.
So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed?
This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it.
i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup.
On May 04 2010 03:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: ADAM.1,
"you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas.. "
Your response is fail, considering supply depots aren't part of the tech tree to ghosts and therefore don't need to be factored in to the time-order to ghosts.
Anyways, Conris...
I'm also a Protoss player, and it's really frustrating when Terrans rush Marine/Marauder with Ghosts. But that's because I recognize that I often clump my units too closely together, making the EMP devastating. If we split them up more, it would lessen the effects of EMP and we could get better surrounds on the Terran units. It's not that EMP is imbalanced; it's that we need to deal with it appropriately. I honestly think that EMP is all right AS IS. That includes energy cost, radius, and everything else.
Too many people rush to say "Unit X or Ability Y is imbalanced!" instead of reflecting on what they could possibly have done differently when encountering Unit X or Ability Y.
agreed, but as said before, if they choose to target sentries instead of zealots, and honestly if at a non choke you need 5~7 sentries to be able to be effective enough to push them back or break even, but with only 2~3 sentries functional, the encounter is almost a loss regardless.
do you split your sentries into 2 flanks? or does it hang back or comes in from another direction?
Let me start off by saying currently I do think PvT is not balanced. I do believe Protoss is favored. I am at the top of Platnium so I am not some copper playing commenting on this.
That being said. I do believe the timing of EMP is off (currently gives terran a chance but once the match up is balanced it will need to be fixed). I do believe it should be researched even cheaply from the Ghost building with a decent research time. Probably should require a Factory like nuke. This will fix the timing of it and i'm not sure on range of feedback and emp but they should be equal or feedback having 1 more than emp. This being that way you could emp in front of HT and win the battle if your micro is good enough but if two straight clicks the feedback would win.
Again I do agree the overal PvT matchup favors P but that does not mean there is not issues with EMP. Thinking this or ignoring this will just mean once the other issues with the matchup are fixed (IMO immortals, reaper timing, tanks etc.) that then you'd have to go back and fix this because then it will be broken. Like current Reaper timing is stoppable (if your timing is good) by toss however, it limits toss openings to very few which I believe for the game is bad. Just because i named 2 issues with terran does not mean I don't know there are Toss issues somewhat greater that need to be fixed in the matchup also (like immortals making pure mech nearly impossible which is the staple pvt build in SC1).
"agreed, but as said before, if they choose to target sentries instead of zealots, and honestly if at a non choke you need 5~7 sentries to be able to be effective enough to push them back or break even, but with only 2~3 sentries functional, the encounter is almost a loss regardless.
do you split your sentries into 2 flanks? or does it hang back or comes in from another direction?"
Split up your sentries, obviously keep them in the back, and obviously try to get the FFs/GS up beforehand. (Setting up a flank early on is admittedly hard if you only have one base.) Also, don't engage in a wide open area that requires so many FFs. Try to catch them in a choke, so you can manage them with fewer energy spells. Also, feel free to push the game until you get robo units (or storm) to deal with bio as well :-)
On May 04 2010 03:10 Deathwizard77 wrote: Let me start off by saying currently I do think PvT is not balanced. I do believe Protoss is favored. I am at the top of Platnium so I am not some copper playing commenting on this.
That being said. I do believe the timing of EMP is off (currently gives terran a chance but once the match up is balanced it will need to be fixed). I do believe it should be researched even cheaply from the Ghost building with a decent research time. Probably should require a Factory like nuke. This will fix the timing of it and i'm not sure on range of feedback and emp but they should be equal or feedback having 1 more than emp. This being that way you could emp in front of HT and win the battle if your micro is good enough but if two straight clicks the feedback would win.
Again I do agree the overal PvT matchup favors P but that does not mean there is not issues with EMP. Thinking this or ignoring this will just mean once the other issues with the matchup are fixed (IMO immortals, reaper timing, tanks etc.) that then you'd have to go back and fix this because then it will be broken. Like current Reaper timing is stoppable (if your timing is good) by toss however, it limits toss openings to very few which I believe for the game is bad. Just because i named 2 issues with terran does not mean I don't know there are Toss issues somewhat greater that need to be fixed in the matchup also (like immortals making pure mech nearly impossible which is the staple pvt build in SC1).
your post makes me happy, and makes me realize i may have not been expressing myself clear enough regards to T's problem with P, i do realize your problems dealing with some P strats terran players (as i have repeatedly posted on the voidray rush and its effectiveness and the amount of micro needed to fend it off on T side)
and yes the reaper in PvT strat post as well, how the "ball" should be shifted between players as the game progresses as Day9 would say, but Terran starts with this "ball" at 6 workers and 50 minerals with 1 cc at 0:01 of the game, which is awkward imo. yes T, toss HAS to get that chrono boost stalker out in any PvT match up which means gateway on 12 latest if you'd like to lose less than 3 probes even if it's not a proxy racks.
initiative roles switches between matchups when different units enter the field, or researches enter the field. as they have done for marauders, with a 50/50 concussive shell research, very cheap but it doesn't mean once those 2 or 3 marauders are out you automatically gain initiative, hence why P is able to push a little earlier due to the research, and that T pushes back hard after the research.
it doesn't make sense to throw down a building producing a gas heavy caster and immediately gain initiative overall. if P scouts and sees the fumes coming out of the ghost academy, they will be pressured to push before that EMP is done, so by simply throwing it down you've gained defensive initiative, and toss would have to push.
immortals 3 shot tanks, idk what else to say, 2 immortals and a couple of anything else with micro will fend off a large roach push or tanks from terran, so yes changes need to be made.
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time.
no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button.
So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed?
This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it.
i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup.
Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you.
Do a lot of people in this thread not remember that EMP was already nerfed? It's radius dropped from 3 to 2, or more than 50% area reduction. It's hard to land good EMPs now, and moreover, once you land one it's completely useless. You can't kill anything with EMP, you need good support. All the protoss needs to do after EMP is back off for a little while.
Furthermore, 150 gas per ghost is ridiculously expensive. Not to mention going ghost delays factory, which delays starport/medivac support. If you see ghost you don't have to worry about banshees, which allows you a little more map control.
Finally, I know it's been mentioned 1000 times, but the simplest way to counter it is to spread your units. If you just a-move and let your units clump then it's going to do a lot more damage than it would have if you just selected a few units and moved them around. If you manually create a concave it's less likely that more than a few of your units will be hit per EMP and you'll have a positional advantage in any given fight.
On May 04 2010 03:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Conris,
"agreed, but as said before, if they choose to target sentries instead of zealots, and honestly if at a non choke you need 5~7 sentries to be able to be effective enough to push them back or break even, but with only 2~3 sentries functional, the encounter is almost a loss regardless.
do you split your sentries into 2 flanks? or does it hang back or comes in from another direction?"
Split up your sentries, obviously keep them in the back, and obviously try to get the FFs/GS up beforehand. (Setting up a flank early on is admittedly hard if you only have one base.) Also, don't engage in a wide open area that requires so many FFs. Try to catch them in a choke, so you can manage them with fewer energy spells. Also, feel free to push the game until you get robo units (or storm) to deal with bio as well :-)
that makes me sad, T has the reign over where they want to fight, but i guess that's ok, just have to manage better, it's at times where T clusters lets say on Kulas Ravine, at the watch tower and i clearly have an advantage in pushing because i get the better arc, but an EMP destroys it.
i'll try splitting the sentries into 2 control groups separate from the zealots (currently zealots and sentries are separate) and see how that goes.
so i guess turtle a little and fend off drops until HT or simply outmass, i just died a little inside.
"so i guess turtle a little and fend off drops until HT or simply outmass, i just died a little inside."
Why is this bad? Are Terrans the only ones allowed to turtle? :-P And robo tech is great too. By the way, cannons are a fantastic help against bio as well, if you want to turtle :-)
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time.
no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button.
So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed?
This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it.
i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup.
Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you.
hmm i've actually gave a stalker heavy army a lot of thought, but given that ghosts are gas heavy and normally T rolls with 2~3, and the fact that there'd be techlabs instead of reactors for the ghosts, it's usually a marauder heavy army, though stalkers get that +4 on armored, it's fact that marauders rape stalkers. so i'm struggling a lot with any gateway composition against a couple of ghosts. and even if it's a zealot heavy army, the loss in food and army investment if T kites with concussive which is usually always must be out by then, will just be such a land slide. make stalkers non-armored? hmmmm lol
i have no idea, but i will try out what you proposed, thank you
On May 04 2010 03:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Conris,
"so i guess turtle a little and fend off drops until HT or simply outmass, i just died a little inside."
Why is this bad? Are Terrans the only ones allowed to turtle? :-P And robo tech is great too. By the way, cannons are a fantastic help against bio as well, if you want to turtle :-)
sigh...lol
not only do terran matchups shut down the 1gate chrono zealot pressure openings, but it also makes me turtle, that makes me sad not because turtle is a counter strat, but rather probably the only if not efficient way to play against an entire race in general. but i guess i'll try to turtle more, and cannon to deny drops.
On May 04 2010 02:28 HoroBoro wrote: Emp is only effective vs toss. Storm is effective against everything.
Why does this pop up so much? This is retarded.. If protoss had a unit that could cause chaos and confusion in enemies so they start attacking themselves and their brains explode.. and if it worked only against zerg then it would be fine? emp does it all.. remove shields, energy, reveals dts and observers and its free on a lower tier unit than templar that also has its own attack and cloak and other stuff.. and ghost is harder to see among mm than floating templars that leave a trail.
Yes, Iounas, I agree that the apple is crunchy and delicious. But the orange is the only fruit to have a color named after it!
Barracks 60 Academy 40 Ghost 40 Total Build Time 140
Pylon 25 Gateway 65 Cyber 50 Robotics 65 Collosus 75 Total Build Time 280
That makes no sense, why would you count a pylon as you can build all those buildings in your first pylon that you got around 10 food, or are we talking about a terran who NEVER gets supply depots and rushes straight to ghost?. And you didn't add in tech addon / energy regen. And you forgot chrono boosting.
It's simply to show the fastest it could be built not factoring in minerals or food. Both the Terran and the Toss can build supply freely while teching up, but the Toss can't start teching until his supply is up.
It really doesn't matter, take the 25 off the point is still valid. A Terran will have a ghost out well before the Toss can get a Collosus out.
EDIT: Also, Tech lab can be built at the same time you're building an academy, that's why I didn't count it. It takes 75 to EMP and I believe ghosts start with ~60, not sure on that one.
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time.
no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button.
So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed?
This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it.
i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup.
Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you.
hmm i've actually gave a stalker heavy army a lot of thought, but given that ghosts are gas heavy and normally T rolls with 2~3, and the fact that there'd be techlabs instead of reactors for the ghosts, it's usually a marauder heavy army, though stalkers get that +4 on armored, it's fact that marauders rape stalkers. so i'm struggling a lot with any gateway composition against a couple of ghosts. and even if it's a zealot heavy army, the loss in food and army investment if T kites with concussive which is usually always must be out by then, will just be such a land slide. make stalkers non-armored? hmmmm lol
i have no idea, but i will try out what you proposed, thank you
Well, just gateway units are going to get rolled by an all marauder group at pretty much any point in the game before charge is out, these days if I see an instant tech lab I just open void ray.
On May 04 2010 02:28 HoroBoro wrote: Emp is only effective vs toss. Storm is effective against everything.
Why does this pop up so much? This is retarded.. If protoss had a unit that could cause chaos and confusion in enemies so they start attacking themselves and their brains explode.. and if it worked only against zerg then it would be fine? emp does it all.. remove shields, energy, reveals dts and observers and its free on a lower tier unit than templar that also has its own attack and cloak and other stuff.. and ghost is harder to see among mm than floating templars that leave a trail.
Yes, Iounas, I agree that the apple is crunchy and delicious. But the orange is the only fruit to have a color named after it!
All hail Protoss!!
ohh nooo not the orange thing
well EMP can take off 100% shield for any DPS or tank tier1 unit for all I care, it hurts, but it'll break even, but taking off 100% of a dependent tier 1 caster unit is not just a rainy day in early midgame, it's a keyboard out the window kind of thing.
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time.
no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button.
So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed?
This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it.
i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup.
Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you.
hmm i've actually gave a stalker heavy army a lot of thought, but given that ghosts are gas heavy and normally T rolls with 2~3, and the fact that there'd be techlabs instead of reactors for the ghosts, it's usually a marauder heavy army, though stalkers get that +4 on armored, it's fact that marauders rape stalkers. so i'm struggling a lot with any gateway composition against a couple of ghosts. and even if it's a zealot heavy army, the loss in food and army investment if T kites with concussive which is usually always must be out by then, will just be such a land slide. make stalkers non-armored? hmmmm lol
i have no idea, but i will try out what you proposed, thank you
Well, just gateway units are going to get rolled by an all marauder group at pretty much any point in the game before charge is out, these days if I see an instant tech lab I just open void ray.
on that note...it just means in any PvT, you can only win by tech, head to head even with equal micro won't get you on top, or even pull through, that posts a major fault does it not?
On May 04 2010 03:22 Meta wrote: Do a lot of people in this thread not remember that EMP was already nerfed? It's radius dropped from 3 to 2, or more than 50% area reduction. It's hard to land good EMPs now, and moreover, once you land one it's completely useless. You can't kill anything with EMP, you need good support. All the protoss needs to do after EMP is back off for a little while.
Furthermore, 150 gas per ghost is ridiculously expensive. Not to mention going ghost delays factory, which delays starport/medivac support. If you see ghost you don't have to worry about banshees, which allows you a little more map control.
Finally, I know it's been mentioned 1000 times, but the simplest way to counter it is to spread your units. If you just a-move and let your units clump then it's going to do a lot more damage than it would have if you just selected a few units and moved them around. If you manually create a concave it's less likely that more than a few of your units will be hit per EMP and you'll have a positional advantage in any given fight.
Yes EMP was nerfed, and I did not see many if anyone complaining about the seize of the emp. Most are complaining about the timing of it. Again if you read my above post yes currently this is needed because of imbalances in the match up but this is beta and we are hear to test and fix things. Just because this broken things helps to counter some other broken things on the other side doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. Everything should be fixed.
As for your 150 gas comment. HT's are 50/150 need 200/200 research, are later tech, and slower with no weapon or snipe. 150/150 price is fine your not trying to fix the balance your trying to make Terran pawn. If they go any cheaper you will see them in tvt.
As for spreading forces again timing is issue. Yes I agree with that for sentries but don't think sentries is the correct answer anyway. Speedlot/immortal/stalker or speedlot/stalker/HT i think is better army comp personally. Now for spreading HT's issue is by then because of equal cost, and faster arrival, usually if you have 5 HT's they have at least 4 ghosts (if not more) so you can spread all you want but because of range if there good they will still get all or most of them. That then is why I put the range thing in my previouse post.
AGAIN cause I refuse to be misunderstood I DO THINK PVT is IMBA in P favor, but I don't think that means you should ignore the parts of terran that will be an issue once you fix P.
"on that note...it just means in any PvT, you can only win by tech, head to head even with equal micro won't get you on top, or even pull through, that posts a major fault does it not?"
Except if the map is small (especially 2-player), you can almost always win with a 2-gate proxy build... so anyone can complain about anything ;-)
The point is that it's possible to hold off a bio rush, even with ghosts. The bio rush is strong, but not imbalanced.
On May 04 2010 03:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Conris,
"on that note...it just means in any PvT, you can only win by tech, head to head even with equal micro won't get you on top, or even pull through, that posts a major fault does it not?"
Except if the map is small (especially 2-player), you can almost always win with a 2-gate proxy build... so anyone can complain about anything ;-)
The point is that it's possible to hold off a bio rush, even with ghosts. The bio rush is strong, but not imbalanced.
that's true, it's possible to fend it off or completely pull through on top, but as mentioned before, that's because they fight at where you choose to (your choke or your expo) but in any field engagement, it just doesn't seem viable, so if the bio ball is running around, unless your happen to catch them at a smaller area or whatnot, you're almost always compelled to move away.
you cannot choose or even influence the position of engagement, if you rely any bit on your sentries, so i guess now the conclusion is that P has to steer away from it or micro the hell out of them in regards of positioning from a 1 click skill, ofcourse this is before you can have a large enough force where your concave does not require your sentries to throw down FF.
maybe that's the way the game will steer once that ghost pops out, if this was the intention, or whether it was to really just kill the shields, the byproduct of this timing of the ghost is much more damaging than the EMP itself is what i'm trying to say.
On May 04 2010 02:33 ADAM.1 wrote: you didnt include depot in your timing.. lol this thread is fail, much like all the replicas..
I will speak on behalf of Terran "I'm sorry ghost is the counter to immortal. If you don't realize how strong the immortal is and that it needs a counter then you are probably in copper division. ATM, Protoss have the advantage over Terran... if you don't realize that you are probably in copper division or don't have Beta. Not that there is anything wrong with the copper division... but I wouldn't agree that copper division players would have a strong handle on what needs nerf and what is a direct counter"
Hi - please reread the 100 bad posts about Terran EMP too strong. Thank you enjoy TL
Funny how many threads happend to pop up about the immortal being OP and that (plat) terrans with 2 ghosts couldn't hit 2 of them if their life depended on it - especially seing as it is undodgeable.
Tbh, I think EMP is fine, BUT I would like to see both it and fungal growth dodgeable as I'm very much against "auto-win" buttons (a bit of an exaggeration, what I mean is abilities with a "damage" component that can't be avoided in any way). Seeing as how it wouldn't make sense to make EMP a "DoT" like storm, I would rather see the projectile from BW back (in before lolgoplayBW). This would allow for more micro and more though in the use of EMP. I'm aware that what I propose hereis a direct nerf to EMP (and hopefully fungal growth as well) but I feel it would be a good change nonetheless. Oh and I'm a random player as well, so this isn't just a P player who wants an easier time.
no EMPs are fine with the shield, as said multiple times, but toss's army composition of majority casters in PvT, gets completely raped by 1 ghost. it's not the fact that without the shield toss is unsustainable, its the fact that of the three races toss is the only race with tier 1 heavy caster units. EMP for shield again, is fine, even if its instant, AoE, and whatnot. it's the AoE energy drain that offsets the entire fight, with a button.
So terran should just have to deal with the fact that their army is going to be split in half and/or be stormed?
This isn't a problem, this is what is known as an interesting gameplay dynamic, try and enjoy it.
i believe terran players are the ones defensive in this thread... as said multiple times...and probably need to be said more, this is NOT about nerfing anything or anyone, but the mere strategy of EMPing sentries before FF goes off in an encounter. so what WAYS does toss have to get around this sentry dependent army against any PvT matchup.
Well, I have to assume that you are talking about a ghost and bio ball push before the toss can have either storm or colosi. Yes, that timing attack does exist, there is definitely a window of time where toss is still on gateway and Terran has ghosts. In my experience, I don't believe that that attack timing is sentry dependent. In my experience having a lot more zealots and stalkers and only a handful of sentries works much better. You can't kite an entire protoss army with stalkers in back of zealots. Try just cutting back on sentries. At the very least you will weaken the push enough so that it won't finish you.
hmm i've actually gave a stalker heavy army a lot of thought, but given that ghosts are gas heavy and normally T rolls with 2~3, and the fact that there'd be techlabs instead of reactors for the ghosts, it's usually a marauder heavy army, though stalkers get that +4 on armored, it's fact that marauders rape stalkers. so i'm struggling a lot with any gateway composition against a couple of ghosts. and even if it's a zealot heavy army, the loss in food and army investment if T kites with concussive which is usually always must be out by then, will just be such a land slide. make stalkers non-armored? hmmmm lol
i have no idea, but i will try out what you proposed, thank you
Well, just gateway units are going to get rolled by an all marauder group at pretty much any point in the game before charge is out, these days if I see an instant tech lab I just open void ray.
on that note...it just means in any PvT, you can only win by tech, head to head even with equal micro won't get you on top, or even pull through, that posts a major fault does it not?
RTS games are not balanced at every point in the game. I don't see a big deal in terran having an advantage in this timing window were talking about. The idea that pushing with ghosts and a bio army before protoss gets tech being a guaranteed win is a silly one. They do have an ADVANTAGE but that is not the same as an unbeatable situation.
"you cannot choose or even influence the position of engagement"
Keep in mind that they eventually have to get into your base, so you know where they have to end up ;-) There's nothing wrong with deciding not to move out until you have a few robo units or stom :-)
"maybe that's the way the game will steer once that ghost pops out, if this was the intention, or whether it was to really just kill the shields, the byproduct of this timing of the ghost is much more damaging than the EMP itself is what i'm trying to say."
On May 04 2010 03:22 Meta wrote: Do a lot of people in this thread not remember that EMP was already nerfed? It's radius dropped from 3 to 2, or more than 50% area reduction. It's hard to land good EMPs now, and moreover, once you land one it's completely useless. You can't kill anything with EMP, you need good support. All the protoss needs to do after EMP is back off for a little while.
Psonic storm was nerfed as well. This thread was created after both so obviously people still think EMP is too much.
On May 04 2010 03:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Except if the map is small (especially 2-player), you can almost always win with a 2-gate proxy build... so anyone can complain about anything ;-)
2-gate proxy is a different discussion with many of threads open about it already. There's a lot of good points here from both sides, you can't really expect the fix for EMPs on Terran is to 2 Gate proxy every game.
Right now EMP is unbalanced for a plethora of reasons in how the game differs from Brood War. But that does not mean I think EMP should be nerfed. Other things should probably just be buffed. And just because protoss is winning more of the time doesn't mean there shouldn't be a buff. If it makes the game more interesting and dynamic then i'm all for it.
That said, mass sentry/zealot seems a poor combination against marauder/ghost. Just because it worked against lone marine/marauder doesn't mean it needs to work against ghosts too.
I don't understand why protoss complains about emp when they have units which completely demolish everything T has without it. EMP is an equalizer. Ghosts suck pretty hard in combat for their cost and take forever to make and cost 150 gas. Try doing an army on army without EMP - protoss just devastates T (with the exception of large mech armies which actually do fairly well, but we're talking about bio here I'm assuming.)
The problem is you can't nerf EMP or immortal rushes become impossible to stop again. I think protoss players just need to spread their armies better. Try using hallucinations to draw emps too. There's a lot of options other than 1a. Try them.
"2-gate proxy is a different discussion with many of threads open about it already."
Oh I know, but I was merely coming up with a counter-claim that someone could use against Protoss at an even earlier stage in the game, before Terrans could mass bio. And they could unjustly cry "Imbalanced!", instead of figuring out how to properly counter it (scouting, walling, repairing, attacking pylon, etc.). I was just using that to refute the claim that Protoss couldn't win until after the Terran bio rush was quelled.
It's simply to show the fastest it could be built not factoring in minerals or food. Both the Terran and the Toss can build supply freely while teching up, but the Toss can't start teching until his supply is up.
It really doesn't matter, take the 25 off the point is still valid. A Terran will have a ghost out well before the Toss can get a Collosus out.
EDIT: Also, Tech lab can be built at the same time you're building an academy, that's why I didn't count it. It takes 75 to EMP and I believe ghosts start with ~60, not sure on that one.
I still don't get your timing chart. You are saying that terran doesn't build anything before ghosts and protoss doesn't build anything before colossus? Saying you can get tech lab at same time you are getting ghost academy means you aren't pumping out marauders (where as a protoss can pump units out of his gateway while teching up to colossus). A ghost is a support unit it can't really kill anything alone, it's only good for emp, after that his dmg is so pathetic. There is no point in rushing to ghosts (a support unit) when the ghost can't even kill the protoss' units that have no shield after emp. Also you are still forgetting that protoss can chrono boost the colossus out.
Long story short.. it doesn't matter how fast terran can get a ghost out.. without marauders the ghost can't effectively kill anything the protoss has. And emp is more effective vs a clump of 20 units mid game than vs 1 stalker early game. Rushing to fast ghosts means you will be lacking marauders and can be easily overrun by a protoss that spots your lack of army. And early game a terran is going to have a limited amount of ghosts and energy thus limited amount of EMPs, which you can easily limit the damage taken from emp by simply spreading your units out.
I think that a small nerf to EMP would make it more situational rather than standard practice.
Look at both HT and Infestors (the closest to Ghost equivilent) they're both very good but only in the right situations. It seems like ghosts are nessisary versus any Toss army.
On May 04 2010 03:54 DuneBug wrote: Right now EMP is unbalanced for a plethora of reasons in how the game differs from Brood War. But that does not mean I think EMP should be nerfed. Other things should probably just be buffed. And just because protoss is winning more of the time doesn't mean there shouldn't be a buff. If it makes the game more interesting and dynamic then i'm all for it.
That said, mass sentry/zealot seems a poor combination against marauder/ghost. Just because it worked against lone marine/marauder doesn't mean it needs to work against ghosts too.
A) Isn't the win% 54% in favor of P? So the difference isn't "that" big iirc - I can't find the post where I read this atm though, so I could very well be wrong. B) There isn't really any other units available at the time EMP is ready. Sure a P could do a fast robo and have an immortal or 2, but they are very vulnerable to ghosts as well, so it doesn't really solve anything. C) Again, I believe that either make EMP researchable (low cost, short time - worst of the solutions anyway imho) or make it and dodgeable by making it a projectile. The projectile would introduce more micro on both sides and more importantly, making it much more viewer friendly due to the excitement of wheter or not it hits - just like with storms(/EMP/scarabs back in SC:BW).
On May 04 2010 03:55 Floophead_III wrote: I don't understand why protoss complains about emp when they have units which completely demolish everything T has without it. EMP is an equalizer. Ghosts suck pretty hard in combat for their cost and take forever to make and cost 150 gas. Try doing an army on army without EMP - protoss just devastates T (with the exception of large mech armies which actually do fairly well, but we're talking about bio here I'm assuming.)
The problem is you can't nerf EMP or immortal rushes become impossible to stop again. I think protoss players just need to spread their armies better. Try using hallucinations to draw emps too. There's a lot of options other than 1a. Try them.
hallus is an interesting route, but it's 100/100 and 110 research time.
that just means you're still getting sentries, but i guess for a different purpose.
no it's true that EMP is an equalizer, but once again, it's the timing of it that is the issue, it's nice to have to fall back and push back out with a ghost in your bio ball, but that's not the case, at the speed that you can get ghosts, it's merely a push out with a ghost incorporated bio ball fairly early in the game.
lol this so sounds like omfg i cant A wall over a army like i'm able to do in PvZ anymore this needs a FIX!!! such bull lol if there's one thing that should be changed its the viability of every single unit that protoss can produce.
It's simply to show the fastest it could be built not factoring in minerals or food. Both the Terran and the Toss can build supply freely while teching up, but the Toss can't start teching until his supply is up.
It really doesn't matter, take the 25 off the point is still valid. A Terran will have a ghost out well before the Toss can get a Collosus out.
EDIT: Also, Tech lab can be built at the same time you're building an academy, that's why I didn't count it. It takes 75 to EMP and I believe ghosts start with ~60, not sure on that one.
I still don't get your timing chart. You are saying that terran doesn't build anything before ghosts and protoss doesn't build anything before colossus? Saying you can get tech lab at same time you are getting ghost academy means you aren't pumping out marauders (where as a protoss can pump units out of his gateway while teching up to colossus). A ghost is a support unit it can't really kill anything alone, it's only good for emp, after that his dmg is so pathetic. There is no point in rushing to ghosts (a support unit) when the ghost can't even kill the protoss' units that have no shield after emp. Also you are still forgetting that protoss can chrono boost the colossus out.
Long story short.. it doesn't matter how fast terran can get a ghost out.. without marauders the ghost can't effectively kill anything the protoss has. And emp is more effective vs a clump of 20 units mid game than vs 1 stalker early game. Rushing to fast ghosts means you will be lacking marauders and can be easily overrun by a protoss that spots your lack of army. And early game a terran is going to have a limited amount of ghosts and energy thus limited amount of EMPs, which you can easily limit the damage taken from emp by simply spreading your units out.
It's still not the point. You have two sides to this. Nobody goes into a fight with a single collosus either. As many minerals/gas that the Terran pumps into his army the Toss has to match assuming both players are equally skilled and the races are balanced. The time/money spent to tech up collosi is higher than ghosts. The person I was talking to said you need Collosi to beat ghosts, I was simply pointing out how that's not exactly the best solution. It's like saying the you should get a mothership to counter a ling rush.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break.
Edit: Isn't this pretty much an imbalance thread? Don't the new forum posting rules clearly state that there must be substantial evidence (via replays) that an imbalance exists? This thread is a waste of time and hopefully gets closed.
On May 04 2010 04:05 WoKKeLs wrote: lol this so sounds like omfg i cant A wall over a army like i'm able to do in PvZ anymore this needs a FIX!!! such bull lol if there's one thing that should be changed its the viability of every single unit that protoss can produce.
this cannot be more true, the 2nd part of your statement anyway. but lets take that into perspective.
yes zealots can be upgraded to have charge, yes stalkers can be upgraded to have blink, yes HTs can upgrade to have storm, that's amazing is it not? lets look at that.
stim is for your entire bio ball, excluding ghosts, off 1 upgrade.
legs is 200/200 already matching stim, and not as game changing if both sides have reached critical mass. and you'd have tech labs anyway for multiple (concussive/stim/shield) upgrades at the same time, honestly if i had to build two citadels, and it saved my ass, and i can sustain the research/build/unit econ, i'd do it, but it's simply not the case.
blink is nice for up the ledge sniping gimmicks, and/or stalker heavy blink micro both singular or all blink. but without these upgrades, where's the viability? so yea i appreciate and see the fact that if toss reaches midmid or midlate game on par with terran, their basic units become more viable after research, but this thread is focusing on early mid game, which is usually when games end. i can be massing up voidrays for late game for all you know and just with a couple of zealots and stalkers it'll rip through thor bio army, but that's not the timeframe we are talking about here because i don't think more than 10% of the games make it past the 3~4 base setting.
On May 04 2010 04:11 ploy wrote: Nerf everything in this game thats good.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break.
Hmm defilers, Tier 3, Storm Tier 3, By the time you got Critical mass of mech Tier 3.
Not seeing where your different times where. Yes if you rushed Tier 3 it would be different timing, but that could be done on the opposite.
On May 04 2010 04:11 ploy wrote: Nerf everything in this game thats good.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break.
Hmm defilers, Tier 3, Storm Tier 3, By the time you got Critical mass of mech Tier 3.
Not seeing where your different times where. Yes if you rushed Tier 3 it would be different timing, but that could be done on the opposite.
ZvT standard openings:
1) Both races fast expand, terran gains map control as soon as medics come out and can pressure Z a little bit forcing him to make a couple sunkens/lings.
2) Mutas come out and swing map control 100% back to zerg, where zerg can take his 3rd while harassing T and forcing him to stay in his base while tech switching to lurkers so he can eventually fight in straight up battles.
3) Science vessel comes out and map control swings back to terran. Zerg must delay terran's movement as much as possible and defend his 3rd and be very careful about drops. Terran takes 3rd.
4) Defilers come out and now its time for terran to try to delay zerg's army as much as possible. Terran needs to start making several factories for tanks vs ultras/swarm.
See the beautiful dynamic in ZvT's? It's all because of very powerful units coming out at different timings. In the end game a huge ball of vessels can totally rape and be overpowered vs a lesser zerg, but it is possible for zerg to do whatever it takes to keep the vessel count down. If we had replayed the progression of this matchup today we'd have all of these new people who just came to TL crying imbalance at every map control swing stage of the game. First it'd be M&M too much dps when stimmed and hard to kill with lings/hydras. Then it'd be whining about how impossible it is to stop muta harass. Then it'd be how ridiculously powerful a big ball of science vessels can be. Then it'd be "omg how is it fair that zerg gets invulnerable units with swarm?" etc. etc.
I agree that EMP should be nerfed. If we make the mean of the units' hp's and shields of an average protoss army, an EMP basically takes out 1/3 to 2/3 of it's total life points. I seriously don't know how some people consider that balanced.
Spreading out units is not pratical. On a battle besides the economy, but that applies to both players, the terran has nothing to do but micro the units. The protoss has not only to micro the units which for a protoss is even more critical due to high cost of their units, but also to think about all unit skills to use, if it's the time to use a storm, force fields, if and where to place them, etc. On top of that some people say that protosses should spread their army... seriously. if there was a button that automatically made that ok, but not manually no.
There is no doubt that EMP should be nerfed all that disagree just need to think a little more and put themselves in the protoss shoes a bit more.
On May 04 2010 04:11 ploy wrote: Nerf everything in this game thats good.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break.
Hmm defilers, Tier 3, Storm Tier 3, By the time you got Critical mass of mech Tier 3.
Not seeing where your different times where. Yes if you rushed Tier 3 it would be different timing, but that could be done on the opposite.
ZvT standard openings:
1) Both races fast expand, terran gains map control as soon as medics come out and can pressure Z a little bit forcing him to make a couple sunkens/lings.
2) Mutas come out and swing map control 100% back to zerg, where zerg can take his 3rd while harassing T and forcing him to stay in his base while tech switching to lurkers so he can eventually fight in straight up battles.
3) Science vessel comes out and map control swings back to terran. Zerg must delay terran's movement as much as possible and defend his 3rd and be very careful about drops. Terran takes 3rd.
4) Defilers come out and now its time for terran to try to delay zerg's army as much as possible. Terran needs to start making several factories for tanks vs ultras/swarm.
See the beautiful dynamic in ZvT's? It's all because of very powerful units coming out at different timings. In the end game a huge ball of vessels can totally rape and be overpowered vs a lesser zerg, but it is possible for zerg to do whatever it takes to keep the vessel count down. If we had replayed the progression of this matchup today we'd have all of these new people who just came to TL crying imbalance at every map control swing stage of the game. First it'd be M&M too much dps when stimmed and hard to kill with lings/hydras. Then it'd be whining about how impossible it is to stop muta harass. Then it'd be how ridiculously powerful a big ball of science vessels can be. Then it'd be "omg how is it fair that zerg gets invulnerable units with swarm?" etc. etc.
There is one major thing your are lacking there. The timings are because of builds, meta game etc. However, The timings of Defiler or HT (not exactly) But close if both races went striaght for them, The timing of Irradiate and Swarm, very similiar. Builds may not make them at the same time hence creating the back and forth. However, the actually physicaly timings are similar. Currently EMP counter would be feedback if not storm in PvT. Hence the timing of Early Tier 2, (rax, (yes depot will be made but theoretically like in the Reaper rush build it could be made during hte making of barracks does not have to be made first so is not considered in timing. Pylon is required to be made first) So rax, techlab/ghost acadmey - ghost, Pylong, gateway,core,2 tech buildigns, then HT. That timing is off. Not saying P is not favored in matchup but that timing deficit is IMO incorrect and for eventual perfect balance (after plenty of thigns on P and T both fixed) should be moved back.
EMP can't be nerfed unless sentry's guardian shield and immortals are nerfed as well. Ghosts are the only thing that allows mech to even be built in T v P.
EMP should not be nerfed again. Buff storm I suppose, but nerfing EMP into the ground would make ghost tech useless. It's already useless in 2/3 of the match ups, and trying to go MM without ghosts and EMP is impossible currently.
If EMP gets nerfed, how is terran supposed to handle the 4 warp gate timing push? EMP is terran's single ace-in-the-hole against early/mid game protoss aggression.
Is it really that hard for protoss just to back off after he gets his army EMP'd? The shields will regen if you let them You don't have to suicide your half HP army into his ball after an EMP just to come to the forums to whine about it.
lol nerf EMP what a joke, just feedback the ghost, EMP is the only thing that can 'save' a terran from Immortal push -_- so stop crying and play clever
On May 04 2010 04:25 Duelist wrote: I agree that EMP should be nerfed. If we make the mean of the units' hp's and shields of an average protoss army, an EMP basically takes out 1/3 to 2/3 of it's total life points. I seriously don't know how some people consider that balanced.
Spreading out units is not pratical. On a battle besides the economy, but that applies to both players, the terran has nothing to do but micro the units. The protoss has not only to micro the units which for a protoss is even more critical due to high cost of their units, but also to think about all unit skills to use, if it's the time to use a storm, force fields, if and where to place them, etc. On top of that some people say that protosses should spread their army... seriously. if there was a button that automatically made that ok, but not manually no.
There is no doubt that EMP should be nerfed all that disagree just need to think a little more and put themselves in the protoss shoes a bit more.
This is really funny.
(I'm sorry to also not contribute to this thread but this post is so funny, it reminds me of the "I think it's no problem if the lurker isn't under the land" thread a while ago)
On May 04 2010 04:11 ploy wrote: Nerf everything in this game thats good.
BW was so good because each race had such powerful/imbalanced units at different stages of each game and created the fantastic dynamic flow. Mass stackable storms, defilers, critical mass mech armies, etc.
Furthermore, PvT has the biggest win % disparity in favor of P compared to all other matchups (according to Blizzard)... give me a break.
Hmm defilers, Tier 3, Storm Tier 3, By the time you got Critical mass of mech Tier 3.
Not seeing where your different times where. Yes if you rushed Tier 3 it would be different timing, but that could be done on the opposite.
ZvT standard openings:
1) Both races fast expand, terran gains map control as soon as medics come out and can pressure Z a little bit forcing him to make a couple sunkens/lings.
2) Mutas come out and swing map control 100% back to zerg, where zerg can take his 3rd while harassing T and forcing him to stay in his base while tech switching to lurkers so he can eventually fight in straight up battles.
3) Science vessel comes out and map control swings back to terran. Zerg must delay terran's movement as much as possible and defend his 3rd and be very careful about drops. Terran takes 3rd.
4) Defilers come out and now its time for terran to try to delay zerg's army as much as possible. Terran needs to start making several factories for tanks vs ultras/swarm.
See the beautiful dynamic in ZvT's? It's all because of very powerful units coming out at different timings. In the end game a huge ball of vessels can totally rape and be overpowered vs a lesser zerg, but it is possible for zerg to do whatever it takes to keep the vessel count down. If we had replayed the progression of this matchup today we'd have all of these new people who just came to TL crying imbalance at every map control swing stage of the game. First it'd be M&M too much dps when stimmed and hard to kill with lings/hydras. Then it'd be whining about how impossible it is to stop muta harass. Then it'd be how ridiculously powerful a big ball of science vessels can be. Then it'd be "omg how is it fair that zerg gets invulnerable units with swarm?" etc. etc.
love player initiative swings, that's how the game should be and how all rts should be. but again, that's not the case in PvT.
the game match opens with terran having the initiative, yes the reaper. having the reaper fall, or not even being made, already puts the T in an economical advantage and/or tech if they choose to, that's fine, having to defend against a mobile unit. fine.
however not long after, the ghost comes out, terran gains initiative again, and this is not at the cost of too significant of your army, yes P can open with voidrays, but what is that, 4 marines and a turret to fend it off or limit the damage? mere marines will take out the toss's expo if there is one, but of course there will be marauders to even add on the hurt. it's not about terran holding on to the initiative through play, but through a single unit in consecutive time frames. so what to do? expo and not be able to fend it off because your army is locked down by ghosts or to turtle and give T map control and tech as high as you can whether it be storm or colossi.
the point is not that EMP rapes and there's no way around it, there is. but the fact that a ghost or two (which can be made fairly quickly) gives T full initiative again, after the ridiculous reaper opening. there is no swing in initiative, but toss having to deal and tank through full pressure of both an inefficient army due to EMP and deriving from that able to protect expos, and also deriving from that, the ability to limit opponent expos and army size. with the analogy of the "ball" being passed between players, terrans are naturally ball hoggers =O
On May 04 2010 04:33 Origine wrote: lol nerf EMP what a joke, just feedback the ghost, EMP is the only thing that can 'save' a terran from Immortal push -_- so stop crying and play clever
ghost is faster than templars, templars are higher tier and slower to get, and move slower, EMP i believe is further range (need to be tested) EMP takes out energy just as feedback, but AOE
if you can ninja HT on the ghost, i appreciate you, but given they are so slow, it's just not very viable.
What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting.
On May 04 2010 04:33 Origine wrote: lol nerf EMP what a joke, just feedback the ghost, EMP is the only thing that can 'save' a terran from Immortal push -_- so stop crying and play clever
Wow, Feeback (as said earlier i have to check honestly I don't know off hand) has less range then EMP and takes almost twice the time to get out than EMP. If you read the thread there are several good reasons why this is not a valid counter midgame.
As for yes because without this Immortal push would be to strong, lets not fix this lets just leave 2 broken things rather then fixing both and making the game better. Great attitude.
On May 04 2010 04:31 link0 wrote: EMP can't be nerfed unless sentry's guardian shield and immortals are nerfed as well. Ghosts are the only thing that allows mech to even be built in T v P.
I agree, well maybe not all of them at once, but I agree something needs to be changed on toss side, but again just because one imba thing counters other imba things, doesn't mean we should leave it. Lets fix it all.
On May 04 2010 04:32 Meta wrote: EMP should not be nerfed again. Buff storm I suppose, but nerfing EMP into the ground would make ghost tech useless. It's already useless in 2/3 of the match ups, and trying to go MM without ghosts and EMP is impossible currently.
If EMP gets nerfed, how is terran supposed to handle the 4 warp gate timing push? EMP is terran's single ace-in-the-hole against early/mid game protoss aggression.
Is it really that hard for protoss just to back off after he gets his army EMP'd? The shields will regen if you let them You don't have to suicide your half HP army into his ball after an EMP just to come to the forums to whine about it.
Concussive shells pretty much means that even if P player pulls back half his army will decimated anyhow, especially if the marauders have stim as well, except it'll be closer to the entire P army.
On May 04 2010 04:38 ploy wrote: What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting.
I do believe 8 proxy rax is better fyi. On that though, it's ridiculous not because it can not be held off, but gives the toss currently 1 starting build. This will make a stagnant boring game.
On May 04 2010 04:38 ploy wrote: What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting.
stalker does not incorporate into a counter to m/m/m fyi, and it forces you to 10~11 gate if you wish to proxy racks, it forces you to chronoboost your stalker instead of your probes, so yes all and all it does effect your build order very much. to fend off zealot rushes you merely need to make a barracks and marines, which you use, however stalkers are not effective against early midgame marauders, so how does this not effect build order again?
a damage to econ, and forcing a stalker, i think that changes the build order completely.
for those that keep ranting about there are many similar threads regarding P v EMP, please, gtfo.
this thread is not to discuss how OP or effective EMP is against P, but the absence of initiative that passes between the players given there are possible reaper openings already.
and instead to be bitching and crying about EMP, there are strats here to hopefully deal with that better, and/or completely countering it. so no this thread is not here to ask for nerfs or buffs, but rather changes in timing of capabilities and/or mechanics
(honestly, 1 emp wants to suck all the shield away, fine, as long as i can deal with that in any possible way given the timeframe of which a ghost or 2 ghosts can drop their load)
On May 04 2010 04:38 ploy wrote: What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting.
stalker does not incorporate into a counter to m/m/m fyi, and it forces you to 10~11 gate if you wish to proxy racks, it forces you to chronoboost your stalker instead of your probes, so yes all and all it does effect your build order very much. to fend off zealot rushes you merely need to make a barracks and marines, which you use, however stalkers are not effective against early midgame marauders, so how does this not effect build order again?
a damage to econ, and forcing a stalker, i think that changes the build order completely.
Uh the damage to econ is nothing compared to how much terran slowed down his econ to do the reaper rush in the first place. Secondly, building ONE stalker is not going to put you at a disadvantage just because he goes into marauders later (he delayed his marauders as well anyway). You can do standard 12 age vs proxy rax reapers and come out way ahead of terran does any kind barracks before depot build.
You're losing credibility fast if you think reaper rushes put terran ahead of the protoss.
On May 04 2010 04:38 ploy wrote: What ridiculous reaper opening? Protoss can hold off a 6 proxy rax reaper cheese without altering his build order at all.... reapers are pretty terrible for anything other than scouting.
stalker does not incorporate into a counter to m/m/m fyi, and it forces you to 10~11 gate if you wish to proxy racks, it forces you to chronoboost your stalker instead of your probes, so yes all and all it does effect your build order very much. to fend off zealot rushes you merely need to make a barracks and marines, which you use, however stalkers are not effective against early midgame marauders, so how does this not effect build order again?
a damage to econ, and forcing a stalker, i think that changes the build order completely.
Uh the damage to econ is nothing compared to how much terran slowed down his econ to do the reaper rush in the first place. Secondly, building ONE stalker is not going to put you at a disadvantage just because he goes into marauders later (he delayed his marauders as well anyway). You can do standard 12 age vs proxy rax reapers and come out way ahead of terran does any kind barracks before depot build.
You're losing credibility fast if you think reaper rushes put terran ahead of the protoss.
no i'm not saying that a single reaper or two will let terran pull ahead. i'm saying that with the availability of a fast reaper, toss is forced to do that one build order and prevents them from doing any heavy econ build. so it pretty much goes like this.
Game loads
Terran: ok banshee rush? 1rax expo? maybe try out bio again? rush ghost? marauder bust? hmm...
Protoss: ok i gota get that stalker out, yesterday
the game starts for protoss after the 1st stalker is out, and if reapers don't come, it's FORCED to run up to terran and try to zap something rather than just sit there and look pretty, it did cost 125/50.
but that's ok, because reaper is a cool unit and i personally really like it, however not long after the ghost is out, furthermore giving T the handle on the game, without doing anything whatsoever. that's what the issue is, there's nothing wrong with reapers other than that toss is forced to open the exact same way or they just might die 3 minutes into the game.
Wether or the emp is overpowerd or not, you could argue the match up is kinda broken when the balance of entire match up basicly lies in a few good emps or a ghost snipe.
On May 04 2010 05:01 4Servy wrote: Wether or the emp is overpowerd or not, you could argue the match up is kinda broken when the balance of entire match up basicly lies in a few good emps or a ghost snipe.
i don't think in any PvT matches T only wins because there are ghosts...
the game starts for protoss after the 1st stalker is out, and if reapers don't come, it's FORCED to run up to terran and try to zap something rather than just sit there and look pretty, it did cost 125/50.
but that's ok, because reaper is a cool unit and i personally really like it, however not long after the ghost is out, furthermore giving T the handle on the game, without doing anything whatsoever. that's what the issue is, there's nothing wrong with reapers other than that toss is forced to open the exact same way or they just might die 3 minutes into the game.
protoss are usually forced to open stalker first anyways in order to snipe the scouting scv because a zealot simply wont do
i do agree that protoss are generally forced to open this way, unless theyre doing some 2 gate rush or a proxy, but opening stalker first doesnt put you at a disadvantage because you can then transition in 4gate/2 gate robo/void ray/ht once the scouting scv/early reaper is dead
1. Joseki along with others have referenced the fact that terran going 3 rax marauders does not adequately compete with a 4 gate opening. It is sufficiently counterable so effectively by protoss that it does not seem like it can last in TvP metagame as things currently stand.
2. You have forcefield. If you don't want to be attacked, use forcefield on your ramp. Or, use forcefield on the Terran's ramp and expand to high yield.
3. Huk agrees with all of you that Terran is too strong. His voidray, sentry, zealot push is clearly dominated by ghosts.
4. Instead of trusting the game to be broken, trust the game to be fixed and learn counters. This situation is not 1/10th as dismal as you think it is.
5. There is no point in theorycrafting in this thread because no one has yet made even a sufficient discussion of timing as it actually plays out.
6. Seriously, you can put a forcefield on your ramp. How do you lose so quickly? If you want to say terran can get medivacs etc, why don't you have HT or colossus yet?
7. If you think that EMP is severely broken or unfair then it is far more likely that you need to change something significant about how you are currently playing the game. Do you still use the first build order you ever learned? The same unit composition? There is yet to be a truly established metagame, you should be prepared to change a lot.
Barracks 60 Academy 40 Ghost 40 Total Build Time 140
Pylon 25 Gateway 65 Cyber 50 Robotics 65 Collosus 75 Total Build Time 280
That makes no sense, why would you count a pylon as you can build all those buildings in your first pylon that you got around 10 food, or are we talking about a terran who NEVER gets supply depots and rushes straight to ghost?. And you didn't add in tech addon / energy regen. And you forgot chrono boosting.
it makes perfect sense.... everything in both builds is geared towards getting out target unit ASAP. therefore terran builds a barracks before a supply depot, its not in the calculations cause they can be built concurrently. you cant build a gateway without a pylon. likewise the assimilator/refinery build times for both races have been omitted, OC is gone as well. tech lab is again built concurrently with the other tech and doesnt slow you down, while all of the toss tech listed must be built one after the other. Btw, the only thing that can be chrono boosted is the collosus, and that takes ~20 seconds off of it and time it takes to get 25 energy is like 30 seconds, so we still get Terran:170 Protoss: 260
If we take ghost vs HT Pylon 25 Gateway 65 Cyber 50 Twilight 50 Archives 50 Storm 110(~80 with 3 chrono boosts) Templar 5(55) (~35 with 2x chrono) (5 with warp gate) Total Build Time ~325 assuming constant chrono and warpgate research Terran: still 170
so theres just a little bit of discrepancy between the time a ghost comes out and can emp and a toss has any type of adequate counter. obviously both races build other units in the mean time but we can assume that the money spend on those is approximately even, so a direct comparison works somewhat decently. This isnt even accounting for the fact that the toss must spend ALOT more in money in gas to get their unit out compared to the terran, just looking at the two lists easily 2-3X in min/gas i play random in plat(~15) btw and have my easiest wins vs toss using emp+marauders, in before anyone tries to flame me for being a copper/bronze player that doesnt understand anything.
just tested emp with a buddy against feedback correction is that there is a projectile on the EMP skill, of mere milliseconds. the range is generally the same however the AOE is the offset, if you have a HT and a ghost go head to head with EMP and FB, i think the milliseconds is the difference with FE going off or not, so the conclusion is, EMP is going off, so is FB, but that defeats the purpose because you're supposed to prevent that EMP.
and that HT move slower and are generally further back, same as ghost, however HT only has 1 target, the ghost, where as regardless where the EMP lands it'll do the damage. so that's the range issue aside.
also tested out hellucination (however you spell that) it's...actually not that bad, the time of which it lasts will be more than useful throughout an entire fight, but the damage taken multiplier gives that away quite easily, but then again, it's useful enough to be used.
so the conclusion is, FE will probably hit the ghost, at the sametime the EMP goes off, even if the ghost sits at 200 energy where after 75 EMP it'll die from the FE, the damage is done. it can rest in peace. where as the HT can't do anything after the FE or even if it has storm, there generally won't be enough energy to do it(assuming it doesn't get hit by EMP) so i think the feedback discussion can end about now, because killing a ghost that has already done it's job doesn't help (maybe mid/late midgame where HT has storm or you have a bigger army to sustain EMP, but again this thread deals with early mid game.
On May 04 2010 05:24 Precipice wrote: 1. Joseki along with others have referenced the fact that terran going 3 rax marauders does not adequately compete with a 4 gate opening. It is sufficiently counterable so effectively by protoss that it does not seem like it can last in TvP metagame as things currently stand.
2. You have forcefield. If you don't want to be attacked, use forcefield on your ramp. Or, use forcefield on the Terran's ramp and expand to high yield.
3. Huk agrees with all of you that Terran is too strong. His voidray, sentry, zealot push is clearly dominated by ghosts.
4. Instead of trusting the game to be broken, trust the game to be fixed and learn counters. This situation is not 1/10th as dismal as you think it is.
5. There is no point in theorycrafting in this thread because no one has yet made even a sufficient discussion of timing as it actually plays out.
6. Seriously, you can put a forcefield on your ramp. How do you lose so quickly? If you want to say terran can get medivacs etc, why don't you have HT or colossus yet?
7. If you think that EMP is severely broken or unfair then it is far more likely that you need to change something significant about how you are currently playing the game. Do you still use the first build order you ever learned? The same unit composition? There is yet to be a truly established metagame, you should be prepared to change a lot.
yes FF your own ramp stops you from dying, but not your expo
medivacs in comparison to colossi and HT timing and cost? are you kidding me?
and this thread is really about the few that are giving input on counters and changes in composition, if you haven't lightly skimmed through it.
EMP is fine as the mechanic it is, just not the timing.
in comparison, in SC1 vessel sniping off lurkers and defilers is insane, but it comes at a later stage, where you can deal with it or be able to sustain the loss of your lurkers and defilers, and it's still very hardhitting even when you're able to replenish those units, that's not the case with SC2 EMP. that is the point of this thread. not that it needs to be nerfed to 100 energy, or that it needs to have a smaller AOE, but the timing of it.
can you imagine colossi availability without the supportbay? where it snipes your entire army from afar with a mere robo bay? no, that would be broken. however ghosts have the same effectiveness as the ridiculous example just mentioned, so please read SOME of the posts on this thread that are constructive before throwing in "don't nerf, play better, deal with it" responses.
On May 04 2010 05:24 Precipice wrote: 1. Joseki along with others have referenced the fact that terran going 3 rax marauders does not adequately compete with a 4 gate opening. It is sufficiently counterable so effectively by protoss that it does not seem like it can last in TvP metagame as things currently stand.
2. You have forcefield. If you don't want to be attacked, use forcefield on your ramp. Or, use forcefield on the Terran's ramp and expand to high yield.
3. Huk agrees with all of you that Terran is too strong. His voidray, sentry, zealot push is clearly dominated by ghosts.
4. Instead of trusting the game to be broken, trust the game to be fixed and learn counters. This situation is not 1/10th as dismal as you think it is.
5. There is no point in theorycrafting in this thread because no one has yet made even a sufficient discussion of timing as it actually plays out.
6. Seriously, you can put a forcefield on your ramp. How do you lose so quickly? If you want to say terran can get medivacs etc, why don't you have HT or colossus yet?
7. If you think that EMP is severely broken or unfair then it is far more likely that you need to change something significant about how you are currently playing the game. Do you still use the first build order you ever learned? The same unit composition? There is yet to be a truly established metagame, you should be prepared to change a lot.
I agree with your post but you used the word metagame wrong. Metagame does not mean strategy.
On May 04 2010 05:24 Precipice wrote: 1. Joseki along with others have referenced the fact that terran going 3 rax marauders does not adequately compete with a 4 gate opening. It is sufficiently counterable so effectively by protoss that it does not seem like it can last in TvP metagame as things currently stand.
2. You have forcefield. If you don't want to be attacked, use forcefield on your ramp. Or, use forcefield on the Terran's ramp and expand to high yield.
3. Huk agrees with all of you that Terran is too strong. His voidray, sentry, zealot push is clearly dominated by ghosts.
4. Instead of trusting the game to be broken, trust the game to be fixed and learn counters. This situation is not 1/10th as dismal as you think it is.
5. There is no point in theorycrafting in this thread because no one has yet made even a sufficient discussion of timing as it actually plays out.
6. Seriously, you can put a forcefield on your ramp. How do you lose so quickly? If you want to say terran can get medivacs etc, why don't you have HT or colossus yet?
7. If you think that EMP is severely broken or unfair then it is far more likely that you need to change something significant about how you are currently playing the game. Do you still use the first build order you ever learned? The same unit composition? There is yet to be a truly established metagame, you should be prepared to change a lot.
yes FF your own ramp stops you from dying, but not your expo
medivacs in comparison to colossi and HT timing and cost? are you kidding me?
and this thread is really about the few that are giving input on counters and changes in composition, if you haven't lightly skimmed through it.
EMP is fine as the mechanic it is, just not the timing.
in comparison, in SC1 vessel sniping off lurkers and defilers is insane, but it comes at a later stage, where you can deal with it or be able to sustain the loss of your lurkers and defilers, and it's still very hardhitting even when you're able to replenish those units, that's not the case with SC2 EMP. that is the point of this thread. not that it needs to be nerfed to 100 energy, or that it needs to have a smaller AOE, but the timing of it.
can you imagine colossi availability without the supportbay? where it snipes your entire army from afar with a mere robo bay? no, that would be broken. however ghosts have the same effectiveness as the ridiculous example just mentioned, so please read SOME of the posts on this thread that are constructive before throwing in "don't nerf, play better, deal with it" responses.
Your issue is the timing? Really? 150 gas is quite an investment that early on and I feel like one EMP early on doesn't make much of a difference in the first fight. Have you seen many games end with the first ghost?
On May 04 2010 05:28 Conris wrote: just tested emp with a buddy against feedback correction is that there is a projectile on the EMP skill, of mere milliseconds. the range is generally the same however the AOE is the offset, if you have a HT and a ghost go head to head with EMP and FB, i think the milliseconds is the difference with FE going off or not, so the conclusion is, EMP is going off, so is FB, but that defeats the purpose because you're supposed to prevent that EMP.
and that HT move slower and are generally further back, same as ghost, however HT only has 1 target, the ghost, where as regardless where the EMP lands it'll do the damage. so that's the range issue aside.
also tested out hellucination (however you spell that) it's...actually not that bad, the time of which it lasts will be more than useful throughout an entire fight, but the damage taken multiplier gives that away quite easily, but then again, it's useful enough to be used.
so the conclusion is, FE will probably hit the ghost, at the sametime the EMP goes off, even if the ghost sits at 200 energy where after 75 EMP it'll die from the FE, the damage is done. it can rest in peace. where as the HT can't do anything after the FE or even if it has storm, there generally won't be enough energy to do it(assuming it doesn't get hit by EMP) so i think the feedback discussion can end about now, because killing a ghost that has already done it's job doesn't help (maybe mid/late midgame where HT has storm or you have a bigger army to sustain EMP, but again this thread deals with early mid game.
So just to be clear, you made a thread complaining about EMP without knowing what happens when a HT and a ghost try to feedback and EMP each other at the same time? You should research and test these things before creating a thread saying how the game is broken. Also, you haven't posted any replays, so it's impossible to give you feedback on the strategy you're using. My guess is that you are clumping units, but again, without a replay it's impossible to know for sure.
This entire thread is just a bunch of theory-crafting and pointless debate. There hasn't been a single replay posted by anyone.
EMP is hardly imba when it's all we have... You have guardian shield, forcefield, feedback(must be nice feedbacking thors medivacs ghosts banshees ravens and battlecruisers right?) and psi storm... Not to mention ghosts are 200 gas and as flimsy as paper.
On May 04 2010 05:28 Conris wrote: just tested emp with a buddy against feedback correction is that there is a projectile on the EMP skill, of mere milliseconds. the range is generally the same however the AOE is the offset, if you have a HT and a ghost go head to head with EMP and FB, i think the milliseconds is the difference with FE going off or not, so the conclusion is, EMP is going off, so is FB, but that defeats the purpose because you're supposed to prevent that EMP.
and that HT move slower and are generally further back, same as ghost, however HT only has 1 target, the ghost, where as regardless where the EMP lands it'll do the damage. so that's the range issue aside.
also tested out hellucination (however you spell that) it's...actually not that bad, the time of which it lasts will be more than useful throughout an entire fight, but the damage taken multiplier gives that away quite easily, but then again, it's useful enough to be used.
so the conclusion is, FE will probably hit the ghost, at the sametime the EMP goes off, even if the ghost sits at 200 energy where after 75 EMP it'll die from the FE, the damage is done. it can rest in peace. where as the HT can't do anything after the FE or even if it has storm, there generally won't be enough energy to do it(assuming it doesn't get hit by EMP) so i think the feedback discussion can end about now, because killing a ghost that has already done it's job doesn't help (maybe mid/late midgame where HT has storm or you have a bigger army to sustain EMP, but again this thread deals with early mid game.
So just to be clear, you made a thread complaining about EMP without knowing what happens when a HT and a ghost try to feedback and EMP each other at the same time? You should research and test these things before creating a thread saying how the game is broken. Also, you haven't posted any replays, so it's impossible to give you feedback on the strategy you're using. My guess is that you are clumping units, but again, without a replay it's impossible to know for sure.
This entire thread is just a bunch of theory-crafting and pointless debate. There hasn't been a single replay posted by anyone.
i wish posts would cluster up or somehow simplify itself so theories of which get tested don't need to be repeatedly posted.
the reason for the actual test is because that seems like to be the general ideas people throw around to counter ghosts. the reason why it's not even bothered to be tested is because of how long it takes to get a HT out, yes if you teched all the way up to HT at the cost of DT herrang, fine, but the time it takes to get a single templar out is not the same as a ghost, hence it not being an effective EARLY MID game counter, as said more than enough times throughout this thread. however if the matter must be pressed, then we should test it, and that is what i have just done.
so the conclusion of the testing AFTER this thread agrees with the ASSUMPTION previous to the thread, HT are not effective with feedback against ghosts, so what is the problem here?
without theory crafting there will be no ideas for testing, this thread is once again mentioned many many times, not to cry about EMP, but ways to deal with it, it started with sentries being EMPed early game where FF and probably 3~5 zealots is the force to deal with the bio ball, then came the counters to the EMP, which are HT of which are not anywhere close to being made at that stage of the game. so please if you have constructive input or advice, do share.
On May 04 2010 05:24 Precipice wrote: 1. Joseki along with others have referenced the fact that terran going 3 rax marauders does not adequately compete with a 4 gate opening. It is sufficiently counterable so effectively by protoss that it does not seem like it can last in TvP metagame as things currently stand.
2. You have forcefield. If you don't want to be attacked, use forcefield on your ramp. Or, use forcefield on the Terran's ramp and expand to high yield.
3. Huk agrees with all of you that Terran is too strong. His voidray, sentry, zealot push is clearly dominated by ghosts.
4. Instead of trusting the game to be broken, trust the game to be fixed and learn counters. This situation is not 1/10th as dismal as you think it is.
5. There is no point in theorycrafting in this thread because no one has yet made even a sufficient discussion of timing as it actually plays out.
6. Seriously, you can put a forcefield on your ramp. How do you lose so quickly? If you want to say terran can get medivacs etc, why don't you have HT or colossus yet?
7. If you think that EMP is severely broken or unfair then it is far more likely that you need to change something significant about how you are currently playing the game. Do you still use the first build order you ever learned? The same unit composition? There is yet to be a truly established metagame, you should be prepared to change a lot.
yes FF your own ramp stops you from dying, but not your expo
medivacs in comparison to colossi and HT timing and cost? are you kidding me?
and this thread is really about the few that are giving input on counters and changes in composition, if you haven't lightly skimmed through it.
EMP is fine as the mechanic it is, just not the timing.
in comparison, in SC1 vessel sniping off lurkers and defilers is insane, but it comes at a later stage, where you can deal with it or be able to sustain the loss of your lurkers and defilers, and it's still very hardhitting even when you're able to replenish those units, that's not the case with SC2 EMP. that is the point of this thread. not that it needs to be nerfed to 100 energy, or that it needs to have a smaller AOE, but the timing of it.
can you imagine colossi availability without the supportbay? where it snipes your entire army from afar with a mere robo bay? no, that would be broken. however ghosts have the same effectiveness as the ridiculous example just mentioned, so please read SOME of the posts on this thread that are constructive before throwing in "don't nerf, play better, deal with it" responses.
Your issue is the timing? Really? 150 gas is quite an investment that early on and I feel like one EMP early on doesn't make much of a difference in the first fight. Have you seen many games end with the first ghost?
the game doesn't necessarily end right away, and i've played mainly Terran before the swap to toss, i know the setbacks of pumping out that first ghost, generally only have a handful of marines and possibly 2 marauders. it won't end the game in terms of taking out their base, but it will push back whatever it is toss has, if not killing a good portion of it.
the timing is my issue because even if you have a small force in comparison to the general huge bio balls running around nowadays and that people have grown used to it. the army cost and food is not the same, but with a ghost in the mix, terran is able to again, push back or kill off a more expensive and food heavy army, with 75 energy. that's perfectly fine to play out, but that early on in the game it becomes quite confusing if that's the idea of it, for terran to have map control with a smaller army(not in numbers but in minerals/gas/food)
On May 04 2010 05:48 Talia wrote: I don't believe they have to change the EMP They rather should change the storm and make it stronger and give it an better range Just my oppinion
storm is fine =) just takes a while to get to it, hence timing being the big issue that this thread reall talks about,
clustered units = nom nom nom storm...if you ever get to getting it out
On May 04 2010 05:28 Conris wrote: just tested emp with a buddy against feedback correction is that there is a projectile on the EMP skill, of mere milliseconds. the range is generally the same however the AOE is the offset, if you have a HT and a ghost go head to head with EMP and FB, i think the milliseconds is the difference with FE going off or not, so the conclusion is, EMP is going off, so is FB, but that defeats the purpose because you're supposed to prevent that EMP.
and that HT move slower and are generally further back, same as ghost, however HT only has 1 target, the ghost, where as regardless where the EMP lands it'll do the damage. so that's the range issue aside.
also tested out hellucination (however you spell that) it's...actually not that bad, the time of which it lasts will be more than useful throughout an entire fight, but the damage taken multiplier gives that away quite easily, but then again, it's useful enough to be used.
so the conclusion is, FE will probably hit the ghost, at the sametime the EMP goes off, even if the ghost sits at 200 energy where after 75 EMP it'll die from the FE, the damage is done. it can rest in peace. where as the HT can't do anything after the FE or even if it has storm, there generally won't be enough energy to do it(assuming it doesn't get hit by EMP) so i think the feedback discussion can end about now, because killing a ghost that has already done it's job doesn't help (maybe mid/late midgame where HT has storm or you have a bigger army to sustain EMP, but again this thread deals with early mid game.
So just to be clear, you made a thread complaining about EMP without knowing what happens when a HT and a ghost try to feedback and EMP each other at the same time? You should research and test these things before creating a thread saying how the game is broken. Also, you haven't posted any replays, so it's impossible to give you feedback on the strategy you're using. My guess is that you are clumping units, but again, without a replay it's impossible to know for sure.
This entire thread is just a bunch of theory-crafting and pointless debate. There hasn't been a single replay posted by anyone.
i wish posts would cluster up or somehow simplify itself so theories of which get tested don't need to be repeatedly posted.
the reason for the actual test is because that seems like to be the general ideas people throw around to counter ghosts. the reason why it's not even bothered to be tested is because of how long it takes to get a HT out, yes if you teched all the way up to HT at the cost of DT herrang, fine, but the time it takes to get a single templar out is not the same as a ghost, hence it not being an effective EARLY MID game counter, as said more than enough times throughout this thread. however if the matter must be pressed, then we should test it, and that is what i have just done.
so the conclusion of the testing AFTER this thread agrees with the ASSUMPTION previous to the thread, HT are not effective with feedback against ghosts, so what is the problem here?
without theory crafting there will be no ideas for testing, this thread is once again mentioned many many times, not to cry about EMP, but ways to deal with it, it started with sentries being EMPed early game where FF and probably 3~5 zealots is the force to deal with the bio ball, then came the counters to the EMP, which are HT of which are not anywhere close to being made at that stage of the game. so please if you have constructive input or advice, do share.
The problem is that you're conclusion is wrong. Feedback works against ghosts (although it is fairly micro intensive). It sounds to me like your trying to cast feedback from a HT that is clumped with the rest of your army. You should be keeping one or two HTs on your army's flank and you should periodically attempt to snipe ghosts with them. I'd be happy to provide more constructive feedback, but you haven't provided any replays demonstrating your problem.
Also, the fact that HT are at a higher tech than ghosts is irrelevant. If the Terran has a ghost heavy army midgame, you can't push out against him. It's that simple. There are a ton of timings in which a Terran cannot push against a Protoss. The time between mass ghosts and Templar/Collosi tech is simply a timing in which Protoss can't push against a Terran.
I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault.
My units were clumped in a ball (I had never seen a ghost when playing Terran up to that point), and I had no Collossus. I am 100% sure that, had I had some collossus with me, it would have turned out differently, even if they had gotten EMP'd, too. I had more units, but no collossus.
Having seen how it played out, I think EMP is ok, as it was due to my error that I lost. I agree with the people who state that we need to learn how to counter it by playing better.
On May 04 2010 05:01 4Servy wrote: Wether or the emp is overpowerd or not, you could argue the match up is kinda broken when the balance of entire match up basicly lies in a few good emps or a ghost snipe.
On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote: I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault.
Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game.
Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses.
I'm a Protoss player, and I don't think the Terran ghost emp should be nerfed, I had problem with the emp like first 2 games with emp, and I got it directly of what I had to do, and it was to split up my forces, after doing it, Terran has no chance, and if you manage to put up really good force fields it's gg after that battle!! If anything the emp should have a bit bigger radius...
On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote: I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault.
Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game.
Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses.
Yeah but this is the beta, where balance is supposed to be worked out. There's no harm in discussing whether something is imbalanced or not. If SC1 players blamed themselves when they lost to 4pool cuz spawning pool was 150 minerals... yeah.
On May 04 2010 05:28 Conris wrote: just tested emp with a buddy against feedback correction is that there is a projectile on the EMP skill, of mere milliseconds. the range is generally the same however the AOE is the offset, if you have a HT and a ghost go head to head with EMP and FB, i think the milliseconds is the difference with FE going off or not, so the conclusion is, EMP is going off, so is FB, but that defeats the purpose because you're supposed to prevent that EMP.
and that HT move slower and are generally further back, same as ghost, however HT only has 1 target, the ghost, where as regardless where the EMP lands it'll do the damage. so that's the range issue aside.
also tested out hellucination (however you spell that) it's...actually not that bad, the time of which it lasts will be more than useful throughout an entire fight, but the damage taken multiplier gives that away quite easily, but then again, it's useful enough to be used.
so the conclusion is, FE will probably hit the ghost, at the sametime the EMP goes off, even if the ghost sits at 200 energy where after 75 EMP it'll die from the FE, the damage is done. it can rest in peace. where as the HT can't do anything after the FE or even if it has storm, there generally won't be enough energy to do it(assuming it doesn't get hit by EMP) so i think the feedback discussion can end about now, because killing a ghost that has already done it's job doesn't help (maybe mid/late midgame where HT has storm or you have a bigger army to sustain EMP, but again this thread deals with early mid game.
So just to be clear, you made a thread complaining about EMP without knowing what happens when a HT and a ghost try to feedback and EMP each other at the same time? You should research and test these things before creating a thread saying how the game is broken. Also, you haven't posted any replays, so it's impossible to give you feedback on the strategy you're using. My guess is that you are clumping units, but again, without a replay it's impossible to know for sure.
This entire thread is just a bunch of theory-crafting and pointless debate. There hasn't been a single replay posted by anyone.
i wish posts would cluster up or somehow simplify itself so theories of which get tested don't need to be repeatedly posted.
the reason for the actual test is because that seems like to be the general ideas people throw around to counter ghosts. the reason why it's not even bothered to be tested is because of how long it takes to get a HT out, yes if you teched all the way up to HT at the cost of DT herrang, fine, but the time it takes to get a single templar out is not the same as a ghost, hence it not being an effective EARLY MID game counter, as said more than enough times throughout this thread. however if the matter must be pressed, then we should test it, and that is what i have just done.
so the conclusion of the testing AFTER this thread agrees with the ASSUMPTION previous to the thread, HT are not effective with feedback against ghosts, so what is the problem here?
without theory crafting there will be no ideas for testing, this thread is once again mentioned many many times, not to cry about EMP, but ways to deal with it, it started with sentries being EMPed early game where FF and probably 3~5 zealots is the force to deal with the bio ball, then came the counters to the EMP, which are HT of which are not anywhere close to being made at that stage of the game. so please if you have constructive input or advice, do share.
The problem is that you're conclusion is wrong. Feedback works against ghosts (although it is fairly micro intensive). It sounds to me like your trying to cast feedback from a HT that is clumped with the rest of your army. You should be keeping one or two HTs on your army's flank and you should periodically attempt to snipe ghosts with them. I'd be happy to provide more constructive feedback, but you haven't provided any replays demonstrating your problem.
Also, the fact that HT are at a higher tech than ghosts is irrelevant. If the Terran has a ghost heavy army midgame, you can't push out against him. It's that simple. There are a ton of timings in which a Terran cannot push against a Protoss. The time between mass ghosts and Templar/Collosi tech is simply a timing in which Protoss can't push against a Terran.
yea the templar positioning is tricky, but like i said, let's just say the templar is out and well, even if the FE does go off given that the templar doesn't get hit by the EMP, the EMP has already landed, hence defeating the purpose of the FE.
the point is not to kill the ghost but to avoid the first EMP or the multiple EMPs that land, i understand the effectiveness of HT possibly killing the ghost even after the EMP, but the EMP is all the ghost is there for, so purpose served.
i guess splitting sentries into 2 different control grounds will help, that i will be able to get those FF off, but then again...that's a lot of sentries, noted and will try.
On May 04 2010 05:01 4Servy wrote: Wether or the emp is overpowerd or not, you could argue the match up is kinda broken when the balance of entire match up basicly lies in a few good emps or a ghost snipe.
^ This.
God I hate defending Terran.
I wonder if the outcome of a battle can be decided by a few good psi storms in sc1? Or in sc2 a few good storms and templar feedback. Good spell placement wins battles period. That's what they're there to do.
On May 04 2010 06:07 DGMavn wrote: To all the P players who think spreading out your casters is "too hard" or "not practical":
Do you have your entire army on one control group? My guess is yes. Get better at this game.
my sentry zealot force at the beginning of nat expo is in 3 different control groups =) tyvm but i guess expanding that to 4 might do the trick, no sarcasm
On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote: I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault.
Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game.
Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses.
Yeah but this is the beta, where balance is supposed to be worked out. There's no harm in discussing whether something is imbalanced or not. If SC1 players blamed themselves when they lost to 4pool cuz spawning pool was 150 minerals... yeah.
I get that it's a beta, and imbalances should be discussed. I'm not saying that EMP is perfect, I'm just saying that, from my experience with it, I lost that battle, not the fact that EMP is unbalanced. After I face a couple of more ghosts, if I'm spreading out my army, and I'm still losing, I might have to change my mind, but as of right now, it's ok, I just have to alter my gameplay and see what happens.
On May 04 2010 06:07 DGMavn wrote: To all the P players who think spreading out your casters is "too hard" or "not practical":
Do you have your entire army on one control group? My guess is yes. Get better at this game.
my sentry zealot force at the beginning of nat expo is in 3 different control groups =) tyvm but i guess expanding that to 4 might do the trick, no sarcasm
On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote: I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault.
Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game.
Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses.
Yeah but this is the beta, where balance is supposed to be worked out. There's no harm in discussing whether something is imbalanced or not. If SC1 players blamed themselves when they lost to 4pool cuz spawning pool was 150 minerals... yeah.
Read this thread. There's no proof of anything posted anywhere. There's pseudo mathematical discussions about cost and timing, and then there's 6 pages of people posting their feelings and experiences. It's a terrible discussion with nothing objective whatsoever.
Splitting up sentries and high temps into sub-groups generates 4 control groups. I always keep zealots seperate from stalkers too, so thats 6. Ofc, you need long-range like colossi in their own group, 7. 8 for any air units you might have to drop/harass.
So that leaves 2 control groups for buildings and macro.
Not saying EMP is imba, but the "moar control groups," can only go so far. Most players are going to need want at least some of their control groups for structure/macro. I think feedback should have equal range.
Feedback has 1 more range than EMP but EMP has a 2 AOE. Feeback targets the ghost automatically onced clicked, but the EMP must be placed absolutely perfectly to make use of the 1 extra range that the 2 AOE provides. Feedback and EMP have fairly equal range in real game situations. The ranges are perfectly balanced as is.
Toss has the advantage of having observers to spot for feedback/storm. Terran has the advantage of a bigger margin of error if the EMP isn't perfectly placed since it will likely hit some other units as well.
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now.
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now.
54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance.
Right now, they, as well as we, do not know which race is imbalanced.
Alrite: back on topic - buff toss nerf terran gg no re k?
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now.
54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance.
Right now, they, as well as we, do not know which race is imbalanced.
?
/facepalm
Let me translate for you, Horoboro. 54% of the time protoss win in pvt. 46% of the time terran win in pvt. This is not a sampled set of data so there is no margin of error. GG.
This whole thread makes me puke. There are only so many logical fallacies a man can handle. This thread exceeded that in the first page.
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now.
54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance.
You need to take a statistics course, because throwing out statistical terms incorrectly makes you look stupid.
EMP is fine, Protoss already beats Terran a majority of the time. If EMP was nerfed at all, Terran would have absolutely no chance at all because without EMP Terran's ground forces just get absolutely demolished (air forces as well because of void rays).
The fact that Terran basically has to use EMP as a crutch to even have a chance (and still lose most games) shows that T needs to be buffed, not nerfed.
imagine how NonY and WhiteRa would rape Terran if the EMP got a nerf. Not that they don't kickass already. Always look at strong players when balancing things, not at weaklings
As a toss player, I don't believe emp needs a nerf. However something needs to be done about defenders advantage in this game. As a former SC:BW player, I can honestly say the thing I am missing most is a shield battery. This wouldn't help me on the offensive and would still require me to micro my armies vs emp in that role. However it would be a really nice thing to have on the def so T can't walk up with a single ghost, emp my ramp then proceed to roll my entire def with half the units because mine are useless without shields/energy.
I reply to your thread with what these people said because this is exactly what should be done.
On May 04 2010 01:52 MANquistador wrote: Don't clump you casters. Forcefield is already too strong, nerfing emp would take away the only thing terran can do to counter it.
On May 04 2010 02:04 Chill wrote: Don't clump your units. Don't amass spellcasters if you know he's making units that specifically counter them.
On May 04 2010 02:18 Craz wrote: So EMP is only good vs protoss, but psi storm can be used effectively vs all races. Therefore psi storm is like a jack of all trades, works vs everything sometimes really good, sometimes lackluster but nevertheless it works vs everything. Therefore EMP which is only good vs protoss has to be equal or better than psi storm.
Guess what psi storm can still own a bio terran. How do I prevent it from owning me? I spread out. This is exactly what you should do vs emp. If you watch high level protoss you'll see them spread their army out vs emp. You can't just expect to clump 40 units together and A-Move and expect to win everytime, if you could MM vs lurker would have been a lot easier :D
On May 04 2010 01:54 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: You'll now hear variations on "spead your units out," and "FF needs a serious nerf," for the next few pages of replies. Enjoy.
I know what you're thinking, and the answer is "yes," i will use my phrophetic powers for good and not evil.
Also, another EMP thread has come full circle into ad-hominem and call for players to "stop qq'ing and play better," on both sides of the isle.
Wether or not the topic is fair game for debate, this community clearly isn't ready to debate it in a civil or logical manner. The thread needs to be locked. It's all down-hill from here.
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now.
54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance.
You need to take a statistics course, because throwing out statistical terms incorrectly makes you look stupid.
EMP is fine, Protoss already beats Terran a majority of the time. If EMP was nerfed at all, Terran would have absolutely no chance at all because without EMP Terran's ground forces just get absolutely demolished (air forces as well because of void rays).
The fact that Terran basically has to use EMP as a crutch to even have a chance (and still lose most games) shows that T needs to be buffed, not nerfed.
My bad. Thought they did some analysis and found that terran was winning 54-46% vs toss in even skill games. Didn't notice those numbers added up to 100. Obviously this thread is messing with me.
Terran does not have to use emp as a crutch. Many many games are won without terran having to resort to emp. Just as many games are won without toss going templar.
I can't believe Protoss users are complaining about TvP, of all matchups. It is the most lopsided matchup in SC2 right now.
Here is the developer chat in question. It is dated 4/30.
Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups?
We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this.
Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54%
Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even.
Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers.
Anyone care to wager on how many times that stat gets quoted in this thread before it dies?
I'll give 2 to 1 odds on 10+.
On May 04 2010 10:42 ahcho00 wrote: with that said....why can't terran have warp gates?! =\. i want a warp rax or a warp factory oh yes....oh yes baby.
OH oh, i know this one!
What are reactors?
I'll take things we type without thinking for 500, Alex.
If EMP absolutely destroyed toss so badly, you would see it running rampant everywhere. that comment will probably spark a bunch of people to say "OMG I just lost 99999 games solely due to EMP", but really, watch some "top" replays (ie replay packs from zotac, Go4SC2, etc...).
i can't remember the last time i saw a good replay of tvp where the terran even made ghosts. there are all sorts of strats they do so obviously the EMP isnt the race destroying spell people are making it out to be.
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now.
54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance.
You need to take a statistics course, because throwing out statistical terms incorrectly makes you look stupid.
EMP is fine, Protoss already beats Terran a majority of the time. If EMP was nerfed at all, Terran would have absolutely no chance at all because without EMP Terran's ground forces just get absolutely demolished (air forces as well because of void rays).
The fact that Terran basically has to use EMP as a crutch to even have a chance (and still lose most games) shows that T needs to be buffed, not nerfed.
My bad. Thought they did some analysis and found that terran was winning 54-46% vs toss in even skill games. Didn't notice those numbers added up to 100. Obviously this thread is messing with me.
Terran does not have to use emp as a crutch. Many many games are won without terran having to resort to emp. Just as many games are won without toss going templar.
That's simply untrue.. Unless you're going for some kind of rush cheese or a banshee build you need EMP or you die. It's as important as stim pack, which you also need or you die.
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now.
54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance.
You need to take a statistics course, because throwing out statistical terms incorrectly makes you look stupid.
EMP is fine, Protoss already beats Terran a majority of the time. If EMP was nerfed at all, Terran would have absolutely no chance at all because without EMP Terran's ground forces just get absolutely demolished (air forces as well because of void rays).
The fact that Terran basically has to use EMP as a crutch to even have a chance (and still lose most games) shows that T needs to be buffed, not nerfed.
My bad. Thought they did some analysis and found that terran was winning 54-46% vs toss in even skill games. Didn't notice those numbers added up to 100. Obviously this thread is messing with me.
Terran does not have to use emp as a crutch. Many many games are won without terran having to resort to emp. Just as many games are won without toss going templar.
That's simply untrue.. Unless you're going for some kind of rush cheese or a banshee build you need EMP or you die. It's as important as stim pack, which you also need or you die.
Surprisingly it didn't result in an autowin for me even though the army sizes were fairly compareable. Toss is rank 8 gold I'm rank 13 plat.
The army sizes weren't comparable, he had an advantage.
The Protess hit the ideal timing window. You had spent a ton of money getting your expansion up and were just starting to throw down more production buildings.
You miss-microed your units. Next time force the Protess into the choke. You'll be able to EMP literally all of his units.
That game could have been yours, the reason you lost has nothing to do with Terran versus Protoss. You expanded and didn't play defensively; he pushed off of one base and punished you for it. You had 41 SCVs to his 26, so next time bunker up and play defensively until you start pulling ahead because of your expansion. Also, try and throw down your 4th and 5th barracks earlier. You had a ton of resources you couldn't spend because you stayed on 3 barracks for too long.
if im not mistakened, high templar + feedback can outrange EMP.
not only do you drain his energy, but you also kill the ghost, so thats a double plus. Just make sure not to clump your spell casters and/or units in one area. If anything, try flanking, cause that will cause him to work a little harder to EMP all your units
Yep, it's time to nerf emp. Should probably double the cost and training time of marauders too. Also, High Templars are now invisible, have a range of 20, and are t1. Lastly, remove zerg from the game and make terran gather resources at 1/4 speed. Using a mule makes your command center explode.
On May 04 2010 13:20 The-Dom wrote: This isn't Warcraft 1 and 2 where every race needs to match (HT and ghost) just like zealot isn't equal to a zergling or a marine.
EMP was in BW and protoss seemed to deal with it. And science vessels were already on most battlefields for many reasons.
On May 04 2010 13:07 Precipice wrote: Protoss 54% : 46% Terran
Yep, it's time to nerf emp. Should probably double the cost and training time of marauders too. Also, High Templars are now invisible, have a range of 20, and are t1. Lastly, remove zerg from the game and make terran gather resources at 1/4 speed. Using a mule makes your command center explode.
BW Protoss 55%:45% Terran OMFG ITS FUCKING IMBA NO WAY TO WIN =.= obviously something like emp nerf would be accompanied by corresponding buffs to balance it out seriously how do you think your post helps at all?
On May 04 2010 13:23 sob3k wrote: EMP vs Toss in SC2 is the same as Dark Swarm vs Terran in BW
Game changing, OP, and balanced
Deal with it.
Dark Swarm is hive tech ffs. Ghost tech barely qualifies as tier 2. thats a HUGE difference. i for one think that just making emp researchable is enough of a nerf so that there isnt a ridiculously huge window between when emp comes out and when toss can get a viable counter (HT/Colossi)
On May 04 2010 13:33 Nerdrage wrote: Maybe micro the HT in a Warp Prism to avoid EMP like a reaver in shuttle in SC 1...Toss in the Predy v. FirstandLast game did that. Heh.
Circular logic, terran sticks ghost in medivacs to counter. medivacs are more accessible and useful in fights than warp prisms
I'm having issues with EMP not because it takes pretty much half my army's sustainable HP away, but because of it's ridiculous AOE and cast range. I realize that EMP is only at maximum effectiveness against toss, and not against Zerg or Terran, but yea, so let's have this skill demolish 1 race, because it's meant for them solely, so i guess toss players should feel special?
Also, I know that I dotn need a supply depot to build a barracks.
I'm a Protoss player, and I don't think the Terran ghost emp should be nerfed, but the templar positioning is tricky, but like I said, let’s just say I hate defending Terran. I wonder if the outcome of a battle can be decided by a few good psi storms in sc1? Or in sc2 a few good storms and templar feedback. Good spell placement wins battles period. That's what they're there to do.
Read this thread. There's no proof of anything posted anywhere. There's pseudo mathematical discussions about cost and timing, and then there's 6 pages of people posting their feelings and experiences. It's a terrible discussion with nothing objective whatsoever.
BUT
You need to take a statistics course, because throwing out statistical terms incorrectly makes you look stupid.
On May 04 2010 13:33 Nerdrage wrote: Maybe micro the HT in a Warp Prism to avoid EMP like a reaver in shuttle in SC 1...Toss in the Predy v. FirstandLast game did that. Heh.
Just so we're clear. I need a t3 unit, with an upgrade (or two) if i want it to do anything else, and a t2 transport...
to counter a t2 unit with a baseline ability, that also knocks the shield off anyting near-by.
i Understand where you guys are goign with this, but I have discussed a bit of strategy with some of the RTS professional players (including nR)Le3r0yJenkin5) and this is waht you need to know in order to succeed.
Firstly, the RMP is not like the DGs, even when studied down to the hardwire mathematics. Ataccking before first command when against anyone other than TGS protoss players or fly-by terran is a mistake unless you have perfecting timing to cancel the gerbs and the LS. But the LS will not be up until the same time as your fort and TE.
The best thing to do when in doubt about EMS and EMP is to just do the same strategy when playing vs LKK players or crom-abusers. All of the KYI can bring you the same energy levels as the CCS. Just think of it as the player does not know where your BYP is placed, or even if he does, you can always proto-lame like that game where joseki placed his UIs in the 7 o'clock position.
On May 04 2010 13:47 DangerMan wrote: i Understand where you guys are goign with this, but I have discussed a bit of strategy with some of the RTS professional players (including nR)Le3r0yJenkin5) and this is waht you need to know in order to succeed.
Firstly, the RMP is not like the DGs, even when studied down to the hardwire mathematics. Ataccking before first command when against anyone other than TGS protoss players or fly-by terran is a mistake unless you have perfecting timing to cancel the gerbs and the LS. But the LS will not be up until the same time as your fort and TE.
The best thing to do when in doubt about EMS and EMP is to just do the same strategy when playing vs LKK players or crom-abusers. All of the KYI can bring you the same energy levels as the CCS. Just think of it as the player does not know where your BYP is placed, or even if he does, you can always proto-lame like that game where joseki placed his UIs in the 7 o'clock position.
On May 04 2010 13:47 DangerMan wrote: i Understand where you guys are goign with this, but I have discussed a bit of strategy with some of the RTS professional players (including nR)Le3r0yJenkin5) and this is waht you need to know in order to succeed.
Firstly, the RMP is not like the DGs, even when studied down to the hardwire mathematics. Ataccking before first command when against anyone other than TGS protoss players or fly-by terran is a mistake unless you have perfecting timing to cancel the gerbs and the LS. But the LS will not be up until the same time as your fort and TE.
The best thing to do when in doubt about EMS and EMP is to just do the same strategy when playing vs LKK players or crom-abusers. All of the KYI can bring you the same energy levels as the CCS. Just think of it as the player does not know where your BYP is placed, or even if he does, you can always proto-lame like that game where joseki placed his UIs in the 7 o'clock position.
Danger Out.
I also crunched the numbers with leeroy but before he went to get some chicken he brought up an interesting point: That aint falco.
for the OP, when dealing with ghosts, I've been trying a flank. Usually the main army with a secondary consisting mainly of speedlots. Send the speedlots in first if he sees it he will waste his emp if he doesnt your speelots get into the meat of his army. For the main army I put up the shields the second I see his army and decide to engage and I crank up the shield and charge in head first. If you let me dictate the battle he will be able choose what to emp and that is GG. Again this strategy only works when you and the terran has an equal army and since my micro sucks I've been succesful about 60% of the time but its getting better. If its a tight map like incineration, I go DT's and take the loss =)
Remember me for who I was, and not who I will become... FAREWELL STOR4EVER. WE WILL MEET AGAIN. But for now, I shall keep my identity secret. SO LONG SUCKERS.
54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance.
Right now, they, as well as we, do not know which race is imbalanced.
Alrite: back on topic - buff toss nerf terran gg no re k?
I totally agree with what you said, but I'd like to point something else.
For those who said that the 54%-46% statistics are a proof of the balance of the EMP, I think this deduction is not a valid one. It could be the case only if those stastistics assumed that in every match lost by Terran EMP was used.
But there is no reason to think this is the case at all, because a lot of games are very short mostly because of protoss pushing with 4 gates and Terran not going ghosts at all because needing to stand some defensive positions with tanks and reach the marauder critical mass. As this two units have a heavy gaz cost, and that terran may add medivac or banshee, ghosts don't come so fast or I must say don't come at all if the game is lose before and so there is no EMP. This seems pretty logic if we think to the economy and the way terran use to play vs protoss to counter 4 gates push.
I suggest just have a look on the game where ghost are produced and EMP used. There is some kind of long TvP games on the HD and Husky VOD and you'll see that most of them with EMP are win by Terrans.
At last I want to add that EMP is really far more better than psy-storm in TvP because it does instant dommage, and spreading with a huge army permit mostly to run away from psystorm when it is cast on you and not being block by other units. In the case of the EMP this is instant dammage, you can't do anything against that. Spreading cannot help to get your unit safe from it until the Terran have not only one ghost. Think when you are protoss with psystorm, it's hard to miss anything, but even if your psy are cast right under the units, a right spread permit to run away. With ghost it's likely to be the same if you get enough of it except your opponent can't run out of it because it's instant.
And then, as the original post says, because EMP drains energy from the sentries it not only does dammage but totally ruin the combinaison of zealot sentries leaving those units uneffective. Psy-storm doesn't do it at all. Maybe feedback would be more likely to destroy some strategy like the medivac + marauders (preventing some kind of : stim, kite, heal, etc... ).
Btw: I'm protoss player in gold league, and yes I can understand Terran complaining about sentries and FF, but even if sentries are OP that doesn't mean EMP can't be discuss seriously considering the further fact that it prevents sentries from FF.
I believe it was said that if you account for the apparent skill level of players, the difference between Protoss and Terran disappears; it just happens that stronger players tend to play Protoss. Maybe I'm recalling it wrong.
From my experience, EMP generally comes out as a wash. The armies I face with it tend to be smaller, so even though losing shields and energy sucks, the opposing force is less strong to begin with. If you let the ghost build up energy it can be painful, so I like to keep the pressure on early so that only one EMP can ever be used at a time, or I force the Terran to over-invest in ghosts.
On May 04 2010 13:33 Nerdrage wrote: Maybe micro the HT in a Warp Prism to avoid EMP like a reaver in shuttle in SC 1...Toss in the Predy v. FirstandLast game did that. Heh.
Hmm awesome idea, I'll have to try that some time =).
On May 04 2010 15:25 Sentient wrote: I believe it was said that if you account for the apparent skill level of players, the difference between Protoss and Terran disappears; it just happens that stronger players tend to play Protoss. Maybe I'm recalling it wrong.
Go look at lucifron vs MyMDeMusliM, they switched off and whoever was T always lost.
i think the old sc1 speedupgrade for zealtos would fix this. the biggest problem is, that melee units are useless against any middle sized ranged army or some marauders without FF.
I know people have said this, but I'm going to say it again.
What works for me most of the time is rather than trying to take out the ghosts before emp - let's face it, their range is usually too great unless you have phoenix or whatever - you need to really pay attention to spreading out your units across as many fronts as possible.
On top of that, don't just let all you immortals go on one clump and all your sentries in another. Each little clump of units needs to have a solid mix, so when EMP hits one group, the others can fill in.
This can be easier said than done if you are caught by surprise. However, I try to never let my units form a ball at any time, so even a sneak attack from a cloaked ghost will not get my entire army. An example might be when you are on a defensive posture at your natural. Don't just let your army ball up. It is imperative that you keep it spread out as much as you can.
Edit: wanted to add that tricking the terran player by hallucinating some HTs is also a good idea. Keep them away from everything else and he will often waste multiple EMPs trying to get them.
I know people have said this, but I'm going to say it again.
What works for me most of the time is rather than trying to take out the ghosts before emp - let's face it, their range is usually too great unless you have phoenix or whatever - you need to really pay attention to spreading out your units across as many fronts as possible.
On top of that, don't just let all you immortals go on one clump and all your sentries in another. Each little clump of units needs to have a solid mix, so when EMP hits one group, the others can fill in.
This can be easier said than done if you are caught by surprise. However, I try to never let my units form a ball at any time, so even a sneak attack from a cloaked ghost will not get my entire army. An example might be when you are on a defensive posture at your natural. Don't just let your army ball up. It is imperative that you keep it spread out as much as you can.
Edit: wanted to add that tricking the terran player by hallucinating some HTs is also a good idea. Keep them away from everything else and he will often waste multiple EMPs trying to get them.
was thinking about the same thing with hallcinate, but rather with immortals given the timeframe of ghosts vs. HT, have 2~3 immortals images run on one flank, they'll def EMP that flank instead,
as for responses to previous posts about the affordability of ghosts + a huge army, yes that's the...ideal situation, but a relatively small army with a ghost extends it's effectiveness by incredible amounts, and that's the point of the ghost i guess, and that's all fine and good. so if t decides to push or poke at this point, it'll be a very strong one. (again, solid build is solid build, nothing wrong with that)
as for pressuring and not letting ghost energy build up. bunkers are being used more and more nowadays, especially the 1rax expo, ideas on dealing with that in transition into multiple ghost army?
On May 04 2010 18:26 dthree wrote: People should be posting in a thread on HOW to deal with EMP rather than how imbalanced it is.
Yes, we've been over that.
Spread units out. Get hT, obs, warp prism, micro them like crazy to try and catch the ghosts before they shoot.
They're obviously viable solutions, they just aren't a complete solution, and the second is unrealistic given the timing you get ghosts vs. the timing you get templar (espcially considering strait to templar tech w/o robo or stargate is the weakest possible play in PvT).
Not saying it's relavent yet due to void rays being an easy win over Terran on any map large enough that fast marauder can't get an equally cheesy win, but i forsee a problem when the match gets longer and we actually see more macro games played.
Here is how you deal w/ EMP. Have an observer see where the ghosts are, and then rush your units in and out over and over again. Like you are trying to kite an enemy. Normally they will spend their emp and hit just a few people.
Only way I've found. Also, just get some high templars and storm the shit out of everything its awesome.
dont forget that ghosts can get cloaked, so u have to go robotic/cidadel/templar achives, taking a eternity and 700gas+++ ... ghost´s are the most ridiculous unit on this game right now... just look at sc1, to get EMP u need to make vessels that need factory and staport, and the science facility, vessels cost 100-225, and u must research the EMP and its 100 energy, why? because EMP FUCKING DESTROY PROTOSS, DESTROY EVERYTHING, GROUND AND AIR UNITS, FUCKING EVERYTHING, i dont know what blizzard have in mind to give such a easy EMP tech from a ghost that just need the barrack and the ghost academy, without even need to research for it, and just 75 energy, and also the ghost can be cloaked, and nuke... this is a big joke, nowadays imortals vs terran = suicide, protoss became terrible against terran if they go ghost rush, marauders with stim + EMP > sentry/stalker/imortal... when the terrans go ghost rush, if u go sentry/zea u lose, if u go stalker/sentry/imortal u lose, if u go stalker/sentry u lose, wth is that? basically u cant attack, but u cant know if they are going ghosts or not, protoss can only play with void + 3gatways? or going colo rush? definitely this isnt right, this game need some changes... 100 energy + research would be the way ...
On May 04 2010 02:04 Chill wrote: Don't clump your units. Don't amass spellcasters if you know he's making units that specifically counter them.
Even if we dont clump are casters, it still is gg, because if u have 5 ghosts one EMP wont be that missed, I have been getting EMP attack vs Terran every game, I am not bitching but I hate TERRAN with a passion I cant win vs them, i went phoenix harassed his mineral line he had maybe 4 scvs when i left, then i had 10 stalkers and 3 zeals with 2 imo and 5 senteries , he came in with 5 ghosts and 5 marauders , and 10 marines and GG me ,with me microing it had NO effect on the EMP and him raping me.
On May 07 2010 15:32 dshsdhk wrote: dont forget that ghosts can get cloaked, so u have to go robotic/cidadel/templar achives, taking a eternity and 700gas+++ ... ghost´s are the most ridiculous unit on this game right now... just look at sc1, to get EMP u need to make vessels that need factory and staport, and the science facility, vessels cost 100-225, and u must research the EMP and its 100 energy, why? because EMP FUCKING DESTROY PROTOSS, DESTROY EVERYTHING, GROUND AND AIR UNITS, FUCKING EVERYTHING, i dont know what blizzard have in mind to give such a easy EMP tech from a ghost that just need the barrack and the ghost academy, without even need to research for it, and just 75 energy, and also the ghost can be cloaked, and nuke... this is a big joke, nowadays imortals vs terran = suicide, protoss became terrible against terran if they go ghost rush, marauders with stim + EMP > sentry/stalker/imortal... when the terrans go ghost rush, if u go sentry/zea u lose, if u go stalker/sentry/imortal u lose, if u go stalker/sentry u lose, wth is that? basically u cant attack, but u cant know if they are going ghosts or not, protoss can only play with void + 3gatways? or going colo rush? definitely this isnt right, this game need some changes... 100 energy + research would be the way ...
whoa whoa ragemuch? You don't have to go robo first as you have to research cloak for ghosts which takes a while.
Certainly it is very hard to feedback ghosts as they blend in so well with bio armies and can cloak, and I agree w/ everybody saying there's no real counter. But I've come to realize that even so, if you can get off a couple storms off before emp goes off and/or from emps that miss your HT, it still makes HT worth it as it is so devastating to their army. At least HT have the option of morphing to archons so they aren't totally useless w/o energy.
I've also started to split my HT army into 2 control groups to help with positioning and avoiding emp.
I just dont use High Templar. EMP is really rough against toss. all I can say is, Ghost's are EXPENSIVE. super super gas heavy.
If your opponent has 5 ghosts against you, you aren't pushing hard enough. Ive never seen more than 2 ghosts in a terran ball against me. and even then i still have a 50/50 winning. Avoid chokes, avoid ramps. Fight in the open and flank. Your observer should catch the army moving out, so throw zealts off to the side, collosi on the closest cliff if you can, otherwise in back, and the stalkers and sentrys on another side. 3 or so control groups at this point is literally almost 1a2a3a. pop your sentries gs before you go in, micro the collosi around to keep them alive. if your forces match theres you can come out on top.
Granted, theres a ton we Protoss have to do to beat this, and I think its a tad unfair that we need to work so hard as opposed to Terrans move 5 feet over to avoid storm. I think EMP needs to be over 5 seconds 20 shield a second. but thats just my view.
it makes me laugh how in EVERY game, stupid people always compare 1 unit to 1 other unit and are like OMGGGG this unit is better than this other races counterpart!!!
dude, this isnt chess, a HT is not a ghost, in the same way that a zealot is not a marine, a voidray is not a banshee, a hydra is not a hellion, etc.
each race is balanced as a whole, not individually. /facepalm
EMP and storm is like a counter to each other imo. Recent high level PvT gameplays all have a mix of ghost or templar in their army composition. Its kind of like who can draw out each other. Once that happens, both teams engage for the showdown. Check out games by White ra vs TLO, amazing storm and ghost usage! Whitra has like 3 templars in his main groups and 3 more in another gorup which gives TLO some what of a hard time finding and emping them.
from http://www.theuen.com Here is a really good demonstration of EMP strategy vs the protoss.
I really like the fact that feedback has 2 more range than the ghost but the ghost can cloak. This brings a lot of back and forth strategy to the table.
EMP isn't some invincible move that totally throws of PvT or anything, but it needs an unbiased look (something that you won't get from many Terran players, or even many Protoss players at that). Realistically, if you're a Protoss player and you're losing games to EMP and you come to the forums to complain that it's OP, you're not a very good player. Good players figure out what they have to do to beat it, perfect the strategy, and then pass judgment based on how difficult it is to beat, how many otherwise viable strategies are invalidated by it, etc.
For Protoss players struggling against EMP, try 3 gate - robo - gate - council - gate in a standard game. Charge will come before army size gets to the point where you need it, observers will be available for map control and scouting, and Immortals will be there in case there aren't actually ghosts right away. Usually I get aggressive with stalkers, then make a judgment call as to whether or not blink can win me the game. It's tough for a Terran to bounce back against early stalkers without investing too much in Marauders, so usually you'll be able to hold map control if you play well. Then, when he decides to reveal his ghost tech, you'll be prepared with guardian shields, flanking zealots, and hopefully charge. This mix will decimate MMG armies in most cases, and it won't rely on early Colossi to save the day.
For people arguing that EMP is perfectly balanced, it might be, but at high level play I doubt the game will go anywhere if it stays as is. The simple fact is that EMP outranges anything in the game save Siege Tanks (See: casting range plus splashing forward), shoots instantly with a big splash radius, halves the effectiveness of more than half of the Protoss units (Stalkers, Sentries, Immortals, Observers, High Templar, Dark Templar, Phoenixes) and can be cast by a Tier Two unit that has decent HP (much better than SC1), a tiny model, the ability to cloak and snipe during late-game, and an attack that does a surprising amount of damage to the one unit that gets affected the least by EMP, the Zealot. For less resources than a stalker and a sentry, (and pretty close to that of a Dark Templar), Ghosts are basically a no-brainer because there's basically no composition that they won't pull their own weight and more against, if managed properly.
In short, basically everything in SC2 has at least some situation where it totally outshines any other unit. Ghosts can do this in basically every situation involving Terran fighting Protoss. It needs to be a little more situational, whether that's by adding a projectile like in SC1, scaling back the damage, maybe removing the decloak effect, or whatever works. It doesn't need to be given the Psistorm treatment and nerfed in AOE, damage and duration, but it sure as hell needs a bit of a tweak so that it doesn't completely dominate one matchup once the game progresses a little further.
On July 14 2010 13:39 scvrush- wrote: EMP and storm is like a counter to each other imo. Recent high level PvT gameplays all have a mix of ghost or templar in their army composition. Its kind of like who can draw out each other. Once that happens, both teams engage for the showdown. Check out games by White ra vs TLO, amazing storm and ghost usage! Whitra has like 3 templars in his main groups and 3 more in another gorup which gives TLO some what of a hard time finding and emping them.
I really like the fact that feedback has 2 more range than the ghost but the ghost can cloak. This brings a lot of back and forth strategy to the table.
I couldn't agree more. Storm/Feedback vs EMP makes for a very interesting dynamic in PvT.
As a Protoss player I'd like to see Blizzard tweak it a little bit, but it certainly makes for exciting games.
Barracks 60 Academy 40 Ghost 40 Total Build Time 140
Pylon 25 Gateway 65 Cyber 50 Robotics 65 Collosus 75 Total Build Time 280
That makes no sense, why would you count a pylon as you can build all those buildings in your first pylon that you got around 10 food, or are we talking about a terran who NEVER gets supply depots and rushes straight to ghost?. And you didn't add in tech addon / energy regen. And you forgot chrono boosting.
Pylon needs to be built BEFORE other buildings, you can start barracks and THEN build a depo never interrupting your progress, are you trolling or just stupid? Tech addons? You mean things that build at the same time as your next building. Add on tech lab while u make ghost academy very advanced tactic there.
Buildings cant be chrono boosted... the collo might save 25sec off the time, so thats what
140 + energy (+25 energy = 50sec?)
compared to 255 minimum not counting thermal lance which is almost required. And even with lance stim + rauders can easily snipe a collo if it doesn't have a cliff or a choke. Stimmed rauder do retarded dps and move super fast. Not to mention you can sit a 2nd OC in your base and expand when you feel like it while toss needs to wait and be able to hold it.
Also note that marine/rauder itself is good and adding ghosts is just extra. Not having the collo means you could die at any moment. Rine/Rauder is light on gas while anything besides lots costs gas and would delay the collo furthur.
I don't even rec Collo to counter this but your argument was so retarded I couldn't help myself.
I would spread my sentries and activate guardian shield early. If you put up GS it doesn't matter if emp goes off for that. Although weak units and no FF is bad. You can try to spread, flank, keep extra gas for warp in more sentry (if possible), go back and forth tempting emp, hallucinate sentries and keep your real ones further back.
Personally I would go chargelots/storm. Collo takes way too long to get although they make a good transition. chargelots + storm is deadly and easy to replenish. Again spread your temps. If you can keep a few temps on a highground and take your natural you can hold till Collo come out. Personally I hate sentries and immortals and use them little.
One thing to note is that marines get RAPED by stalkers so you can force him to make more marauders with lots of pressure early. This will delay him by gas, supply, and using up time on his rax. Transition into chargelots/templar and you should have storms to use defensively while you get your nat up, and by being offensive you give yourself more time to prepare for him coming back. If able getting blink is also useful as you can hit and run when his army starts moving to your main. Blin > Concussive shells and with blinking to highground you can get quite a few shots off. For instance on BListerning sands leave a unit on the watchtower and then kite him to it. He will chase b/cif you went blink stalkers your force looks ripe for rauders (which it is). But when you blink up onto the tower and take 1/3 of his armies hp he won't be too happy. He won't have medivacs this early so it will furthur deter him from committing with weak units. Not to mention if he stims rofl.
DTs sent one at a time can also ruin him as he probably won't have any ravens and only a few scans. Try to target ghosts first if they aren't cloaked and rauders after that (if his marines have 55hp its not worth 2 hits, 3 hits on a maruader seems much more effective). This is gas heavy though and only worth it if you can get a dt into his workers as well as one on his army.
One other thing I've heard is try to kill his rines and then mop up the rest with void rays. Or go void ray at his base and if he still attacks make sentries up your ramp and just block ur ramp with FF for as long as you want (I think u need 5). The voids can rape his main and it might just be GG.
Immortals are slow and retarded (like sentries) and get EMP and die, or rines eat shields, or mauraders are like LOL STIM WUTS HARDUN SHELL? (
Edit: Why is my sad clown : * ( a kissy face? Sadface.
I dont understand people saying Marines get raped by stalkers..
Do a test.. 12 Marines vs 5 stalkers (600 min each) straight up attack move.. Who would win? It would be close, but probably the marines. Thats not counting STIM.. Marine HP shields.. and the extra 125 gas that 5 stalkers would cost. Want to give stalkers blink? Doesnt make a difference when it comes to straight up attack move battle.
Micro? Sure, you can win if the stalkers are microed.. But then add in 2 marauders with slow, and you cant use your stalker range to your advantage anymore, because each time you pull back, 2 stalkers will die.
Its not so bad when you look at it alone, but keep in mind how Mules give terran such an economy boost, added with the "counters" to marines being so weak (even Zealots, without gaurdian shield and charge, would die way fast against marines unlike in BW when zeals actually did good vs marines).. Basically terran can A) Have units that win straight up regardless of micro.. and B) Have the nessisary economy boosting to support straight up units, even when fast expoing.. and C) The next 2 units out of the Barracks which decimate every Protoss ground unit in Marauders and Ghosts, sprinkled in with mass Marines makes an insane army.
Oh. and EMP, which instantly makes a protoss army half HP in one long-ranged large radius shot for 75 mana. Combine that with Marines when you can have 12 for every 5 zealots or stalkers the opponent has.
Whats up with this BUMP trend recently? People need to look at the post dates. There are people in the new posts quoting something from the beggining of May =x the game may have changed and people may have learned how to deal with it (well except the guy that bumped this apparently).
I play T so maybe Im biased buuuttt I think its fine. You can deal with it. Spread your HTs and sentries (oh and dont come here complaining that if there are 5ghosts wtf?). I usually send 2 ghosts with my main force and thats about it, they are expensive so I try to keep them alive and usually only build more if they die or if they're in a no win fight that I cant run from
Its funny how they want EMP to be researched yet we have to have stim/shield + Medivac AND THEN two 150/150 Ghost on the field just to beat their 15 stalker 1a army...
On July 14 2010 19:51 Rockstar25 wrote: Storm does damage too fast, it was slower in BW.
Storm does 112 damage in Brood War and 80 damage in SC2, and lasts for the same number of ticks in both games (does 10 damage every half tick in SC2 and 12 damage every half tick in BW). Ticks might be faster in SC2, but I'm pretty sure squares were larger in Brood War (it feels like it covers less area now, although both are 1.5 radius). It's still a strong spell, though, because units in SC2 are prone to clumping together.
On July 14 2010 20:20 Competent wrote: Its funny how they want EMP to be researched yet we have to have stim/shield + Medivac AND THEN two 150/150 Ghost on the field just to beat their 15 stalker 1a army...
I think you need to pit some units versus each other in a unittester...
On July 14 2010 19:20 Skyze wrote: I dont understand people saying Marines get raped by stalkers..
Do a test.. 12 Marines vs 5 stalkers (600 min each) straight up attack move.. Who would win? It would be close, but probably the marines. Thats not counting STIM.. Marine HP shields.. and the extra 125 gas that 5 stalkers would cost. Want to give stalkers blink? Doesnt make a difference when it comes to straight up attack move battle.
Micro? Sure, you can win if the stalkers are microed.. But then add in 2 marauders with slow, and you cant use your stalker range to your advantage anymore, because each time you pull back, 2 stalkers will die.
Its not so bad when you look at it alone, but keep in mind how Mules give terran such an economy boost, added with the "counters" to marines being so weak (even Zealots, without gaurdian shield and charge, would die way fast against marines unlike in BW when zeals actually did good vs marines).. Basically terran can A) Have units that win straight up regardless of micro.. and B) Have the nessisary economy boosting to support straight up units, even when fast expoing.. and C) The next 2 units out of the Barracks which decimate every Protoss ground unit in Marauders and Ghosts, sprinkled in with mass Marines makes an insane army.
Oh. and EMP, which instantly makes a protoss army half HP in one long-ranged large radius shot for 75 mana. Combine that with Marines when you can have 12 for every 5 zealots or stalkers the opponent has.
...marines do get raped by stalkers, who attack moves armies in game...
just b/c there are slow maruaders doesn't mean you lose early game, you can still micro a bit, the snare on maruaders doesn't last as long as the cooldown on shot and they won't have stim yet. Throw in just one zealot and your stalkers can micro a ton.
I think the solution to emp is a range nerf, or ideally putting it on ravens and require research.
Ghosts just have too many advantages against toss and its bullshit to say its fine. If void ray got nerfed b/c retard terrans can't micro a viking with 9 range and decent speed, build a few turrets, or build a few marines and not put a ton of building on the edge of their base, why they hell is an instant cast AoE 100dmg shield/energy removal from 9+ range that requires little tech on a fast unit that can cloak and blends in with a bio ball allowed to exist? Not to mention its still a good fighting unit.
Saying storm is better b/c it can kill stuff or works on all races is bullshit too. You don't get emp or ghosts in other MU as much if at all, you use emp at the start of a battle and can have enough to knock out an entire army's shields and energy. Storm RARELY does 80dmg and if it does its likely a mistake on their part. EMP is so stupid atm I can't see it not getting changed. BW emp was perfect, this is redic.
How to fix emp do any of these
-Range nerf to 7 -Ghost takes up more space so it is visible, or toss sees ghosts highlighted b/c of their psionic energy (aka no hiding under thors, dships, buildings). -Emp drains shields over time (but still removes all energy) -Emp has a slowish moving projectile -Emp has a short cast time that makes a noise -Emp is moved to Raven, Snipe can shoot through multiple units (like halo sniper) -Emp doesn't work on units in Guardian Shield but it disrupts all GS in the area. Emp needs a noticeable sound effect for this as well.
-Add shield battery, possibly using Nexus energy (1 energy = 4shield) or pylon upgrade, etc. Would require pylon power but not to be near the nexus. This would make Protoss macro mechanic more useful mid-late game and fix EMP early game
-Immortals take 10 dmg from EMP
-Emp locks out spells for 10sec rather than draining energy, but still drains shields
-Archons absorb EMP within 6 range and get a 25% boost to dmg for 10sec and a 33% boost to speed. Archons suck atm, might make them viable in PvT. Researched at Templar Archives, costs 150minerals 50gas.
Sentries cost 100 gas.. immortals cost 100 gas.. stalkers cost 25 gas each. One ghost (the cost of 1 immortal and 2 stalkers, or even less than 2 sentries) can ruin a whole protoss army.
I dont see how thats an argument, because of how effective marines are (WAY more effective than zealots before charge, which is the only protoss non-gas unit)..
its not like the mothership, costing ~700 minerals and gas to get.. Its only 150 gas. that is not a lot for instant half-HPing an army the size of its radius.
and Ploppy you missed my point. I wasnt saying protoss earlygame is weak, I actually survive almost every PvT until 30+ minutes at least (I am top 10 diamond, well before my lack of playing for 2 days).. Its just that for anyone to argue that Stalkers "rape" marines.. That is a flat out false statement. Marines do more than hold their own vs stalkers.. And the surrounding stuff terran has, is what makes it overwhelming in the end.
This isnt BW.. Theres no "hard counters" like Vultures owning zealots, Dragoons owning vultures, Tanks owning dragoons, zealots owning tanks.. etc.. Its purely everything is decent against everything.. and for that to work, Marines or EMP or something needs to be brought down a bit because once terran gets that massive ball going, the only solution is collosus or storm.. Which is way too resource intensive for Protoss to keep up vs terran who can rebuild their MMM ball from tier 1 buildings where the only thing that costs gas is 150 for a ghost (only need 2-3 in your ball to destroy a whole protoss army) and medivacs (which you again only need afew).. Protoss NEEDS templars (150 gas, very expensive) or collosus (200 gas wow) to even compete at that point, two units that are pretty bad in small numbers, meaning that you need to invest a LOT LOT of gas into just surviving vs terran. That shouldnt be the case. If protoss needs that much gas to even make it past mid-game.. then they should be able to expo faster and safer, rather than dying to the marauder push if you try to expo while terran can expo safely no prob even if protoss 4warpgate rushes.
My issues with PvT comes all in the lategame. Its like that White-Ra vs Dalailamer replay.. I can survive the first 3-4 big battles, maybe even win them.. but in the end game, unless your macro is as good as White-Ra (and not many are).. then you are gonna be in trouble, because terran can regenerate their army so fast after a battle, where Protoss is going to be starved for gas, even if they are running 3 bases, to just keep the MMM ball under control with storms/etc.
On small maps like steppes of war a terran player can seriously mass only marines and rush for a ghost academy, stimpak and combat shields, and push as soon as 1-2 ghosts with emp are out, and the protoss can not make really anything to counter it in time. they can maybe get charge but that would be rushing it, and they definitely couldn't get storm if the terran times it right. I seriously hate how marines with stimpak/emp can win against any combination of early protoss units.. the only chance in hell you have is to wait at your base when you know hes pushing and spread your units out really wide.. and then you must wait and hope he engages you because good luck moving across the map to attack him and setting up in a good position with all your units spread out enough to not get emp'd instantly.. I suppose if you rushed ht's you could perfectly position them everytime to feedback the ghosts before they emp you but that requires sooo much coordination and perfect positioning, it's such a hassle to play against terran now days. most of the time i end up getting frustrated and doing insane early stalker builds to just win early but thats such a risky move and i dont know what else to do.
On July 14 2010 21:19 bowyert wrote: On small maps like steppes of war a terran player can seriously mass only marines and rush for a ghost academy, stimpak and combat shields, and push as soon as 1-2 ghosts with emp are out, and the protoss can not make really anything to counter it in time. they can maybe get charge but that would be rushing it, and they definitely couldn't get storm if the terran times it right. I seriously hate how marines with stimpak/emp can win against any combination of early protoss units.. the only chance in hell you have is to wait at your base when you know hes pushing and spread your units out really wide.. and then you must wait and hope he engages you because good luck moving across the map to attack him and setting up in a good position with all your units spread out enough to not get emp'd instantly.. I suppose if you rushed ht's you could perfectly position them everytime to feedback the ghosts before they emp you but that requires sooo much coordination and perfect positioning, it's such a hassle to play against terran now days. most of the time i end up getting frustrated and doing insane early stalker builds to just win early but thats such a risky move and i dont know what else to do.
Well.. judging from the last 3 pages of this thread.. All you need is Stalkers, since Stalkers are the "hard counter" to Marines. And if you lose, even if you are outnumbered 50 marines to 20 stalkers (same cost).. Its all because you "cant micro".
I know, I dare any terran player to open up a unit testing map and pit like 15 marines with stimpak + ghost against 8-9 stalkers,.. if emp lands (which honestly you have to be terrible to not hit at LEAST half the force) then the stalkers will seriously melt away like butter before you even kill more than 4 marines.. and you can not micro stalkers vs stim paked marines.. if you try to fall back its a lose lose because theyre able to out run you and do massive damage while youre not attacking and running
Saying toss can just throw in Collosi is pretty crazy. You gotta do another whole tech tree in addition to temps. That's two 3rd tech units that both are crazy expensive and take quite awhile to research and make. It's like saying going MMM with ghosts and thors, which is less expensive then both going collosi with thermal lances and templars. The issue is the cost of developing protoss tech. Your having to spend 2x the resources of terran for a build that can counter units that they can produce and have upgraded by tier 2 (waiting just for ghosts).
It can be done though, just watch WhiteRa. He has a pretty damn solid temp/speedlot build that he uses a LOT on terrans. It really comes down to micro, but the emp is pretty damn strong. As strong as emp is against protoss, storm is complete rape against zerg and that includes archons. It's a give-take, but I can see why people dislike EMP all the time that half toss shields,.
maybe EMP should have like a type of effect where the middle of the EMP (say you focus it on an immortal) loses 100% of shields, then as it goes on out, they lose significantly less.. like 70%, 50%, 30%.. Of course this still will be pointless because once terran gets 3 ghosts, can still cover a full army (the cost of.. only 3 immortals, or one templar (after you have to research storm, compared to EMP being free)..
Or maybe make EMP have to be researched. And definitely more energy needed.
nuke costs money and isn't especially useful against a decent opponent except for static defenses or supply locking. nukes are a moot point.
Emp can't kill anything. takes out about 1/3 of protoss units hp, which will regenerate if they are left alone. takes out all energy. does 100 damage to shields in 2 aoe.
Storm kills loads of things. does 80 damage over 4 in game seconds in 1.5 aoe.
They are not supposed to do the same thing. You can wipe out whole armies with templars. Ghosts can only act as support units that are good against protoss with emp and good against zerg with snipe.
Yes it takes longer to get templar, but they are more of a reaction to ghosts than being the same unit. Feedback will take out ghosts and other energy based units. Taking out their ghosts and medivacs will help you out significantly. Maybe more so than using storm in some instances.
Terran needs emp to deal with early gateway units and immortals. In small battles Terran can kite zealots and shrug off any return fire from stalkers. In larger battles, the Terran player can't afford to kite without taking significant ranged damage. They can't stop because Protoss units are better pound for pound and would get torn up. Emp fills the gap and prevents forcefield abuse. Without it Terran can't go offensive (aka win) without getting to starport tech. Factory units are not an option, so Terran gets a good ability on an expensive caster unit.
On July 15 2010 03:31 kawazu wrote: Terran needs emp to deal with early gateway units and immortals. In small battles Terran can kite zealots and shrug off any return fire from stalkers. In larger battles, the Terran player can't afford to kite without taking significant ranged damage. They can't stop because Protoss units are better pound for pound and would get torn up. Emp fills the gap and prevents forcefield abuse. Without it Terran can't go offensive (aka win) without getting to starport tech. Factory units are not an option, so Terran gets a good ability on an expensive caster unit.
Are you kidding? Larger bio blobs, even without ghosts, RAPE gateway/immortal armies that do not contain templar/colossi. What game have you been playing?
On July 14 2010 21:30 bowyert wrote: I know, I dare any terran player to open up a unit testing map and pit like 15 marines with stimpak + ghost against 8-9 stalkers,.. if emp lands (which honestly you have to be terrible to not hit at LEAST half the force) then the stalkers will seriously melt away like butter before you even kill more than 4 marines.. and you can not micro stalkers vs stim paked marines.. if you try to fall back its a lose lose because theyre able to out run you and do massive damage while youre not attacking and running
I want to see a replay where the P had their army in more than one control group and had a HIGHER (not equal, since remember T units are more cost effective/fragile) resource-cost army and tries to split their casters/units and still loses b/c of "imba" emp.
On July 15 2010 04:00 DanielD wrote: I want to see a replay where the P had their army in more than one control group and had a HIGHER (not equal, since remember T units are more cost effective/fragile) resource-cost army and tries to split their casters/units and still loses b/c of "imba" emp.
Thanks in advance.
Spliting does nothing. When zlots move to engage with or without charge they group up, and really after stimpack is used u never have time to perfect position ur army as a toss. EMP has a huge range, much bigger than sentries or HT's and bigger aoe than HTs, and it is INSTANT. U cant dodge it. If u try to retreat after an EMP they will stim up and hcase u down and kill all ur units so that is not good also.
Comparison> tech to emp> teclab 25 gas, academy 50 gas, 150 for the ghost> 225 gas total tech to storm > warpgate 50, twilight coun. 100, temp arch 200, storm research 200, hight temp 150 > 700 gas total emp> instant 100 dmg, 2 radius, 9 range, all units in blast loose energy, decloaks units storm> 80 dmg over 4 seconds, 7 range, 1.5 radius
To be able to counter mass marines u need tier 3 tech as toss. There is no other counter couse toss only has ht and Colossi as aoe. And no, stalkers DO NOT counter marines. Even if u are early aggressive one bunker shuts u down completely. Marine/ghost timing push is incredibly difficult to beat (Bratok never lost while doin it) couse marines with shield and stim and ghost > all gateway units. Rushing to any of thoose tier 3 options is not a solution.
I am actually seriously considering switching to T b/c of how bullshit EMP is. I'm gonna hold on till release to see if they fix it but if they don't I'm probably going T. Only reason I'm not atm is b/c I don't want to learn a new race when I'm diamond top 10 toss and silver T/Z.
I still can't beleive they nerf void rays b/c it takes too much more from T to defend it, which it doesn't, and leave EMP as this 1a2ae-click instant rape, and keep it on a low tier hard to see unit and give it 9 range.... seriously wtf blizz. Even with spread late game he can have enough ghosts and be like lol e click e click e click whole army. Tbh though the most irritating part is the ghost can be hid under medvacs and other shit so you don't even know he has a ghost sometimes.
solution: just make immortals immune to EMP. say it's part of their "hardened shield" bonus.
that way, if you scout a ghost academy, you can throw up a robo and be able to counter a T bioball that will be smaller because it has a ghost or 2 in it.
vs. if terran decides not to produce ghosts and just mass a bunch of bioball, you will have a harder time defending if you don't get the immo's out in time.
adds some strategy & doesn't change the mu too much, imho. added bonus: makes immo's viable against tanks.
On July 14 2010 21:19 bowyert wrote: On small maps like steppes of war a terran player can seriously mass only marines and rush for a ghost academy, stimpak and combat shields, and push as soon as 1-2 ghosts with emp are out, and the protoss can not make really anything to counter it in time. they can maybe get charge but that would be rushing it, and they definitely couldn't get storm if the terran times it right. I seriously hate how marines with stimpak/emp can win against any combination of early protoss units.. the only chance in hell you have is to wait at your base when you know hes pushing and spread your units out really wide.. and then you must wait and hope he engages you because good luck moving across the map to attack him and setting up in a good position with all your units spread out enough to not get emp'd instantly.. I suppose if you rushed ht's you could perfectly position them everytime to feedback the ghosts before they emp you but that requires sooo much coordination and perfect positioning, it's such a hassle to play against terran now days. most of the time i end up getting frustrated and doing insane early stalker builds to just win early but thats such a risky move and i dont know what else to do.
Well.. judging from the last 3 pages of this thread.. All you need is Stalkers, since Stalkers are the "hard counter" to Marines. And if you lose, even if you are outnumbered 50 marines to 20 stalkers (same cost).. Its all because you "cant micro".
Least, thats what the terran experts tell me.
Don't use stupid ass shit like 100 BC vs 100 Muta. Who builds one unit in game. Stalkers counter marines until enough rauders are out to snare the stalkers reliably, or if he just gets stim. Well placed bunkers will stop your harass b/c of repair, yes but thats adding in a lot more than just rines. Unless he does a proxy bunker where you somehow can't snipe his SCV that only works defensively. If you get blink then can get around bunkers easy and if he doesn't have maruaders (and even if he does) you can have a field day on him.
The problem is the easy use of EMP and how ridiculously difficult if not impossible to stop it from being effective b/c when it does hit its detrimental. You shouldn't be able to have all 3 of these things:
Easy to use with little to be able to minimize the effect even if prepared Cheap and accessible Detrimental if used right
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
On July 15 2010 04:49 scojac wrote: solution: just make immortals immune to EMP. say it's part of their "hardened shield" bonus.
that way, if you scout a ghost academy, you can throw up a robo and be able to counter a T bioball that will be smaller because it has a ghost or 2 in it.
vs. if terran decides not to produce ghosts and just mass a bunch of bioball, you will have a harder time defending if you don't get the immo's out in time.
adds some strategy & doesn't change the mu too much, imho. added bonus: makes immo's viable against tanks.
that won't work b/c even with hardened shields PURE mauraders with stim will rape them. Since he has rines/ghosts/stim hardened shields don't mean anything, although I think emp should do 10dmg to shields of immortals.
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
I can't believe how many threads I've seen with a title like this.
Can we stop suggesting balance changes?
The bottom line is that protoss has to do a bit of thinking about where he will be fighting the terran ball by assessing his unit composition.
I really suggest a good mix of tier1 units, there's no magic formula the number of sentries - but make sure you can forcefield the terran into your zealots and micro so that you gain a concave more quickly.
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi...
Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with.
Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT
On July 15 2010 05:28 AncienTs wrote: I can't believe how many threads I've seen with a title like this.
Can we stop suggesting balance changes?
The bottom line is that protoss has to do a bit of thinking about where he will be fighting the terran ball by assessing his unit composition.
I really suggest a good mix of tier1 units, there's no magic formula the number of sentries - but make sure you can forcefield the terran into your zealots and micro so that you gain a concave more quickly.
Thats the problem. Terran doesn't have to think they just E click A move and all the things toss can do are ineffective at best. EMP needs changed.
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi...
Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with.
Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT
lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT
but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything?
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi...
Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with.
Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT
lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT
but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything?
Because 99% of people in the beta play no where near optimally and 1a e click t is easier than splitting your forces and casting forcefields properly. It's an easy strat to execute that is not as easily counterable, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced.
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi...
Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with.
Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT
lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT
but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything?
Because 99% of people in the beta play no where near optimally and 1a e click t is easier than splitting your forces and casting forcefields properly. It's an easy strat to execute that is not as easily counterable, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced.
I wonder what you could consider imbalance if it's not taken a situation where 2 armies with almost the same time/ressource spent ( knowing terran rax armies usually needs less gas), when the 2 armies are confronting for one side to survive he needs to have 2 times more effective APM, preparation before fight(positionning, flanking) tactical execution in fight(guardian's shield, Forcefield, focus fire marauders with stalkers/immortal) while the terran just have to be careful of not being caught half pants down on a choke and he can pretty much 1a cast some EMP and maybe stim to be greatly effective.
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi...
Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with.
Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT
lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT
but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything?
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi...
Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with.
Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT
lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT
but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything?
Because 99% of people in the beta play no where near optimally and 1a e click t is easier than splitting your forces and casting forcefields properly. It's an easy strat to execute that is not as easily counterable, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced.
I wonder what you could consider imbalance if it's not taken a situation where 2 armies with almost the same time/ressource spent ( knowing terran rax armies usually needs less gas), when the 2 armies are confronting for one side to survive he needs to have 2 times more effective APM, preparation before fight(positionning, flanking) tactical execution in fight(guardian's shield, Forcefield, focus fire marauders with stalkers/immortal) while the terran just have to be careful of not being caught half pants down on a choke and he can pretty much 1a cast some EMP and maybe stim to be greatly effective.
This.
Especially given that blizzard nerfed void ray because of supposed disproportionate skill in attacking with VR compared to defending. EMP is way more difficult to defend against yet it remains, while if you aren't a retard and got a viking and micro it, or build some rines, or built a turret and didn't put a ton of buildings all over the outside of your base you can easily deal with VR harass. But a lot of Terrans were too retarded and cried bloody murder, even though good Terrans laughed at VR harass.
You know how many terrans I raped making void rays while they attack moved vikings to me when I was charged? A lot of games I would just H position over their stargates and when viking popped they would sit there and try to out dmg me. There are many easy ways to counter and beat VR but blizz nerfed it. I'm not so mad about VR nerf except that its a double standard to make EMP so easy and leave it as is. Maybe some devs will read this and change EMP to be fair.
Bunch of whiners, brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc.
I don't believe EMP is imba. If they were to nerf it however, making it an upgrade would be too harsh. Perhaps changing required energy from 75 to 100 would be more appropriate.
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi...
Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with.
Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT
lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT
but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything?
Because 99% of people in the beta play no where near optimally and 1a e click t is easier than splitting your forces and casting forcefields properly. It's an easy strat to execute that is not as easily counterable, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced.
I wonder what you could consider imbalance if it's not taken a situation where 2 armies with almost the same time/ressource spent ( knowing terran rax armies usually needs less gas), when the 2 armies are confronting for one side to survive he needs to have 2 times more effective APM, preparation before fight(positionning, flanking) tactical execution in fight(guardian's shield, Forcefield, focus fire marauders with stalkers/immortal) while the terran just have to be careful of not being caught half pants down on a choke and he can pretty much 1a cast some EMP and maybe stim to be greatly effective.
I would consider a situation where 2 armies with almost same time/res spent fought and both players played perfect and one army won handily imbalanced.
You make a choice when you pick your race -- how do I want to play? If you pick toss, you have forgiving macro mechanic (warp-gate) in exchange for the need to micro your more expensive, tougher units better in order for them to be cost effective. Terran has the least forgiving macro mechanic as far as building units (energy on OC is obv forgiving) and the focus is more on constant production/proper composition/timing of spell usage.
Again, I have yet to see a replay where a toss properly patrol-spreads or otherwise does the proper micro to negate EMP's affects and still loses to a 1a'd bio blob.
Shields come back infinitely faster than ghost energy, you could spam FF and completely stop army from advancing until shields come back, which would be looong before the ghost(s) had enough energy for further EMP, just as one example of a solution.
And don't say "but my seeeentriiies get empeeeeeeeeed tooooooo" because you can keep them back for chrissakes. Yes EMP has range nine but it doesn't have radius 1,000
On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote: Bunch of whiners, brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc.
Well for someone like me who is new to RTS games and Starcraft in general, this is a real turnoff to the game. I don't want to try and play PvT just to lose to MMM again and again. I try to go HT to feedback the Medivacs, drop some storms on the MMM ball, but that get's scouted by a scan or they're just smart enough to make ghosts in general, and the ghosts just drop their use(along with my blink/charge, whatever I upgrade on my way to Templar Archives). Ok, well I'll fallback, wait for shields to come back, energy, etc. Well he has concussive shells. Even if half my units are able to get out, it's still gg.
On July 15 2010 08:01 DanielD wrote: I would consider a situation where 2 armies with almost same time/res spent fought and both players played perfect and one army won handily imbalanced.
You make a choice when you pick your race -- how do I want to play? If you pick toss, you have forgiving macro mechanic (warp-gate) in exchange for the need to micro your more expensive, tougher units better in order for them to be cost effective. Terran has the least forgiving macro mechanic as far as building units (energy on OC is obv forgiving) and the focus is more on constant production/proper composition/timing of spell usage.
Again, I have yet to see a replay where a toss properly patrol-spreads or otherwise does the proper micro to negate EMP's affects and still loses to a 1a'd bio blob.
Shields come back infinitely faster than ghost energy, you could spam FF and completely stop army from advancing until shields come back, which would be looong before the ghost(s) had enough energy for further EMP, just as one example of a solution.
And don't say "but my seeeentriiies get empeeeeeeeeed tooooooo" because you can keep them back for chrissakes. Yes EMP has range nine but it doesn't have radius 1,000
So first you say that imbalance is when two skilled players face off and one army anihilates the other, but then for some reason there's a problem with the fact that no one can come up with a replay where a very good player loses to a complete newb because of EMP? There's two things there, and while I agree with the first, if you look at battles in which Protoss and Terran players both micro decently, EMP can still wreck a Protoss force. If blizzard only fixed problems that let 1a-ers beat good players, the game would be in a sorry state right now.
Regardless, you want to make the claim that shield regen can be used to beat EMP. That works against newbs, but good players will only EMP when shots are being fired, meaning that EMP is always HP damage on units, or energy damage on casters. Casters get energy at the same rate as the ghost, and HP just doesn't regenerate. Even with that, you're correct in saying that Protoss can FF spam to block a Terran army. But riddle me this: is one or two EMPs worth the number of units you lose by running away from a faster army (stimpacks) and being forced to throw 6-8 forcefields down to block off the center of a map like LT or Steppes of war? You seem to be seriously underestimating the number of ghosts a Terran player can have in relation to the size of a Protoss army. Even with a few medivacs, and 1-1 marauders to stalkers, they'll be able to afford two ghosts for every 3 sentries or one ghost for every high templar, (if they even need that many). If it takes 3 sentries worth of forcefields to get away from 2 EMPs, the Protoss player still comes out of the altercation at a loss. Likewise, even if EMPs only single-target High Templar, the Terran player can fight with decently-priced snipers that 5-shot zealots after an EMP.
On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote: Bunch of whiners, brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc.
They are balancing SC2 to be balanced at all levels and they nerfed Void Rays specifically b/c shitty terrans were losing. EMP screws you even if you do a ton of things to prevent it. Thats why it should be changed. Double standards are bullshit, and trying to make the game better is whining? Idiot.
I can't think of anything else in game that has all 3 of these qualities for any race. Banelings seem a bit close but there are lots of strats to fight them and they don't rape every unit...
i know another one! marauder with stim and slow, takes any ground unit with a minimum of micro
ohwait: thats terran aswell? oshi...
Marauders are irritating but they have a decent amount of ways to be dealt with.
Tanks Other marauders Hydra Lings Air Ultra Chargelot Temps Collo DT
lol, do u play the same game as me? no wait, its TERRANCRAFT
but as u stated, they can be so easily countered, then how come 90% of all terrans just a-move, emp, stim and roflstomp everything?
Because 99% of people in the beta play no where near optimally and 1a e click t is easier than splitting your forces and casting forcefields properly. It's an easy strat to execute that is not as easily counterable, that doesn't mean it's imbalanced.
I wonder what you could consider imbalance if it's not taken a situation where 2 armies with almost the same time/ressource spent ( knowing terran rax armies usually needs less gas), when the 2 armies are confronting for one side to survive he needs to have 2 times more effective APM, preparation before fight(positionning, flanking) tactical execution in fight(guardian's shield, Forcefield, focus fire marauders with stalkers/immortal) while the terran just have to be careful of not being caught half pants down on a choke and he can pretty much 1a cast some EMP and maybe stim to be greatly effective.
I would consider a situation where 2 armies with almost same time/res spent fought and both players played perfect and one army won handily imbalanced.
You make a choice when you pick your race -- how do I want to play? If you pick toss, you have forgiving macro mechanic (warp-gate) in exchange for the need to micro your more expensive, tougher units better in order for them to be cost effective. Terran has the least forgiving macro mechanic as far as building units (energy on OC is obv forgiving) and the focus is more on constant production/proper composition/timing of spell usage.
Again, I have yet to see a replay where a toss properly patrol-spreads or otherwise does the proper micro to negate EMP's affects and still loses to a 1a'd bio blob.
Shields come back infinitely faster than ghost energy, you could spam FF and completely stop army from advancing until shields come back, which would be looong before the ghost(s) had enough energy for further EMP, just as one example of a solution.
And don't say "but my seeeentriiies get empeeeeeeeeed tooooooo" because you can keep them back for chrissakes. Yes EMP has range nine but it doesn't have radius 1,000
Yeh when they EMP I just run because they don't have stim or concussive shell, maybe you should research those so you can get out of copper.
EMP radius is too big for how EMP is implemented, not to mention they can have 2 ghosts and just emp you when you bring your sentries. On top of that late game 3 EMPs can cover 90% of a toss army easy, at which point there is no spreading
You think its harder to be able to Q up units than to go back to your pylon and warp in stuff? And thats only gateways. You can make units w/o looking back at your base but toss has to spend a few seconds back where there is a power grid. I don't see how pressing your building hotkey and pressing D 6x is harder than going back to your base and shift clicking units. Plus toss is vulnerable during warp in, either from pylons dying, warped in units getting attacked, etc. The only thing I think is hard macro wise is zerg spawn larva, the rest is fairly easy. And before you start crying about warp in protoss has limited mobility relative to the other races.
On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote: Bunch of whiners, brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc.
Well for someone like me who is new to RTS games and Starcraft in general, this is a real turnoff to the game. I don't want to try and play PvT just to lose to MMM again and again. I try to go HT to feedback the Medivacs, drop some storms on the MMM ball, but that get's scouted by a scan or they're just smart enough to make ghosts in general, and the ghosts just drop their use(along with my blink/charge, whatever I upgrade on my way to Templar Archives). Ok, well I'll fallback, wait for shields to come back, energy, etc. Well he has concussive shells. Even if half my units are able to get out, it's still gg.
Lets look at the Terran players options. So no MMM... Bio wise that leaves a ghost and reaper army. Wonderful. Totally viable.
Ok Terran player goes mech, which would be the other early game option. You go stargate or robobay. You win! Factory can't deal with void rays if you are at anywhere close to the level of macro as them. Factory also gets destroyed by immortals. Before critical mass, factory units will lose to a purely zealot army that you attack moved. Or a pure stalker army.
Terran has to have a strong bio force because the factory is such a non-factor against Protoss. Terran has to go MM or you will lose. You don't have the option to do anything else.
Most Terran builds use MM to transition to something else. In other match-ups, you have the option to use factory units. In TvP, you don't.
On July 15 2010 08:01 DanielD wrote: I would consider a situation where 2 armies with almost same time/res spent fought and both players played perfect and one army won handily imbalanced.
You make a choice when you pick your race -- how do I want to play? If you pick toss, you have forgiving macro mechanic (warp-gate) in exchange for the need to micro your more expensive, tougher units better in order for them to be cost effective. Terran has the least forgiving macro mechanic as far as building units (energy on OC is obv forgiving) and the focus is more on constant production/proper composition/timing of spell usage.
Again, I have yet to see a replay where a toss properly patrol-spreads or otherwise does the proper micro to negate EMP's affects and still loses to a 1a'd bio blob.
Shields come back infinitely faster than ghost energy, you could spam FF and completely stop army from advancing until shields come back, which would be looong before the ghost(s) had enough energy for further EMP, just as one example of a solution.
And don't say "but my seeeentriiies get empeeeeeeeeed tooooooo" because you can keep them back for chrissakes. Yes EMP has range nine but it doesn't have radius 1,000
So first you say that imbalance is when two skilled players face off and one army anihilates the other, but then for some reason there's a problem with the fact that no one can come up with a replay where a very good player loses to a complete newb because of EMP? There's two things there, and while I agree with the first, if you look at battles in which Protoss and Terran players both micro decently, EMP can still wreck a Protoss force. If blizzard only fixed problems that let 1a-ers beat good players, the game would be in a sorry state right now.
Regardless, you want to make the claim that shield regen can be used to beat EMP. That works against newbs, but good players will only EMP when shots are being fired, meaning that EMP is always HP damage on units, or energy damage on casters. Casters get energy at the same rate as the ghost, and HP just doesn't regenerate. Even with that, you're correct in saying that Protoss can FF spam to block a Terran army. But riddle me this: is one or two EMPs worth the number of units you lose by running away from a faster army (stimpacks) and being forced to throw 6-8 forcefields down to block off the center of a map like LT or Steppes of war? You seem to be seriously underestimating the number of ghosts a Terran player can have in relation to the size of a Protoss army. Even with a few medivacs, and 1-1 marauders to stalkers, they'll be able to afford two ghosts for every 3 sentries or one ghost for every high templar, (if they even need that many). If it takes 3 sentries worth of forcefields to get away from 2 EMPs, the Protoss player still comes out of the altercation at a loss. Likewise, even if EMPs only single-target High Templar, the Terran player can fight with decently-priced snipers that 5-shot zealots after an EMP.
You make some good points, and no, it isn't a good trade since you do lose those units to slow. But ghosts are 150/150 so comparing them to sentry or templar isn't totally fair, and again, I want to see some evidence of this imba since I never see it in my games. People can explain all they want but I want to see some video or a replay.
On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote: Bunch of whiners, brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc.
Well for someone like me who is new to RTS games and Starcraft in general, this is a real turnoff to the game. I don't want to try and play PvT just to lose to MMM again and again. I try to go HT to feedback the Medivacs, drop some storms on the MMM ball, but that get's scouted by a scan or they're just smart enough to make ghosts in general, and the ghosts just drop their use(along with my blink/charge, whatever I upgrade on my way to Templar Archives). Ok, well I'll fallback, wait for shields to come back, energy, etc. Well he has concussive shells. Even if half my units are able to get out, it's still gg.
Lets look at the Terran players options. So no MMM... Bio wise that leaves a ghost and reaper army. Wonderful. Totally viable.
Ok Terran player goes mech, which would be the other early game option. You go stargate or robobay. You win! Factory can't deal with void rays if you are at anywhere close to the level of macro as them. Factory also gets destroyed by immortals. Before critical mass, factory units will lose to a purely zealot army that you attack moved. Or a pure stalker army.
Terran has to have a strong bio force because the factory is such a non-factor against Protoss. Terran has to go MM or you will lose. You don't have the option to do anything else.
Most Terran builds use MM to transition to something else. In other match-ups, you have the option to use factory units. In TvP, you don't.
On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote: Bunch of whiners, brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc.
Well for someone like me who is new to RTS games and Starcraft in general, this is a real turnoff to the game. I don't want to try and play PvT just to lose to MMM again and again. I try to go HT to feedback the Medivacs, drop some storms on the MMM ball, but that get's scouted by a scan or they're just smart enough to make ghosts in general, and the ghosts just drop their use(along with my blink/charge, whatever I upgrade on my way to Templar Archives). Ok, well I'll fallback, wait for shields to come back, energy, etc. Well he has concussive shells. Even if half my units are able to get out, it's still gg.
Lets look at the Terran players options. So no MMM... Bio wise that leaves a ghost and reaper army. Wonderful. Totally viable.
Ok Terran player goes mech, which would be the other early game option. You go stargate or robobay. You win! Factory can't deal with void rays if you are at anywhere close to the level of macro as them. Factory also gets destroyed by immortals. Before critical mass, factory units will lose to a purely zealot army that you attack moved. Or a pure stalker army.
Terran has to have a strong bio force because the factory is such a non-factor against Protoss. Terran has to go MM or you will lose. You don't have the option to do anything else.
Most Terran builds use MM to transition to something else. In other match-ups, you have the option to use factory units. In TvP, you don't.
HE IS TALKING ABOUT EMP
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT EMP
EMP IS THREAD THIS ABOUT TALK EMP
And surely you think EMP is overpowered because of the other aspects of the Terran arsenal... I play T so my view might not be much of a shock, however I really don't see EMP as OP.
Reading it on paper, I'm sure I'd go like "wtf is wrong with the devs!?!?" but in practise it feels like P is just way to strong vs T if the T doesn't have EMP. The TvP MU I just feel has somewhat of a balance state where T goes bio with early ghosts, P takes the map, ghosts get on the field, P tries holding until coll, T gets vikings, P is going toward HTs, T might try getting a few tanks and micro + good timings wins the battles.
Ofcourse this isn't what exactly happens(and this is just totally ignoring timing pushes), but just in general I feel the power switches hands a few times through the matches like that, where one guy gets x tech and the other has to hold until y unit enters the fray, then the aggressor has to hold until z unit comes out.
On July 15 2010 04:49 scojac wrote: solution: just make immortals immune to EMP. say it's part of their "hardened shield" bonus.
that way, if you scout a ghost academy, you can throw up a robo and be able to counter a T bioball that will be smaller because it has a ghost or 2 in it.
vs. if terran decides not to produce ghosts and just mass a bunch of bioball, you will have a harder time defending if you don't get the immo's out in time.
adds some strategy & doesn't change the mu too much, imho. added bonus: makes immo's viable against tanks.
that won't work b/c even with hardened shields PURE mauraders with stim will rape them. Since he has rines/ghosts/stim hardened shields don't mean anything, although I think emp should do 10dmg to shields of immortals.
I'm not suggesting you go pure immortal. but getting a couple of immortals that only took 10 damage from EMP or something (basically, hardened shield is used against this spell) with zealot/stalker/sentry (maybe a 2gate/robo build) against a bio/ghost build would mean that even if your forces were emp'd, at least your immortals could soak up a bunch of damage and maybe even have your forces live longer.
imho, it's worth trying out, even if just to stop all this whining over EMP.
On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote: Bunch of whiners, brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc.
Well for someone like me who is new to RTS games and Starcraft in general, this is a real turnoff to the game. I don't want to try and play PvT just to lose to MMM again and again. I try to go HT to feedback the Medivacs, drop some storms on the MMM ball, but that get's scouted by a scan or they're just smart enough to make ghosts in general, and the ghosts just drop their use(along with my blink/charge, whatever I upgrade on my way to Templar Archives). Ok, well I'll fallback, wait for shields to come back, energy, etc. Well he has concussive shells. Even if half my units are able to get out, it's still gg.
Lets look at the Terran players options. So no MMM... Bio wise that leaves a ghost and reaper army. Wonderful. Totally viable.
Ok Terran player goes mech, which would be the other early game option. You go stargate or robobay. You win! Factory can't deal with void rays if you are at anywhere close to the level of macro as them. Factory also gets destroyed by immortals. Before critical mass, factory units will lose to a purely zealot army that you attack moved. Or a pure stalker army.
Terran has to have a strong bio force because the factory is such a non-factor against Protoss. Terran has to go MM or you will lose. You don't have the option to do anything else.
Most Terran builds use MM to transition to something else. In other match-ups, you have the option to use factory units. In TvP, you don't.
HE IS TALKING ABOUT EMP
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT EMP
EMP IS THREAD THIS ABOUT TALK EMP
And surely you think EMP is overpowered because of the other aspects of the Terran arsenal... I play T so my view might not be much of a shock, however I really don't see EMP as OP.
Reading it on paper, I'm sure I'd go like "wtf is wrong with the devs!?!?" but in practise it feels like P is just way to strong vs T if the T doesn't have EMP. The TvP MU I just feel has somewhat of a balance state where T goes bio with early ghosts, P takes the map, ghosts get on the field, P tries holding until coll, T gets vikings, P is going toward HTs, T might try getting a few tanks and micro + good timings wins the battles.
Ofcourse this isn't what exactly happens(and this is just totally ignoring timing pushes), but just in general I feel the power switches hands a few times through the matches like that, where one guy gets x tech and the other has to hold until y unit enters the fray, then the aggressor has to hold until z unit comes out.
That's true, the mu does work that way, vaguely. Coming from a P, it's probably no surprise that I think this, but that doesn't change that the cost effeciency of emp seems insane next to the support protoss can field, excepting maybe a good number of coll.
I think that emp is worth more than what a T pays. You said yourself P is really strong without it, I think all the raging P's out there really want is for the cost effeciency of a Templar to be roughly on par with that of a ghost, to say nothing of timing.
Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
Did people forget that HTs have feedback and ghosts have snipe (lolz)?
Feedback counters medivacs, thors, shees, ghosts, and BCs. Yet, I don't see people crying to mommy about it. No research required, range 9, low mana cost of 50, completely drains target of mana even if it doesn't outright die.
On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote: Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote: Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
You can't just say "storm is good in 2 MU and EMP is OP in one so it's fair". In fact storm and templar are almost never used in PvP. But even thats not the point, if EMP isn't useful, or ghosts aren't useful then you don't have to build them. EMP is not situational in PvT, its always a good idea to get emp and can be added to almost any army to make it much more effective.
On July 16 2010 05:11 link0 wrote: Did people forget that HTs have feedback and ghosts have snipe (lolz)?
Feedback counters medivacs, thors, shees, ghosts, and BCs. Yet, I don't see people crying to mommy about it. No research required, range 9, low mana cost of 50, completely drains target of mana even if it doesn't outright die.
Feedback doesn't "counter" any of those things. Feedback can do a decent amount of dmg to them and take their energy. Imagine if feedback was AoE and did 100 dmg to everything. Thats what EMP is except on a slow unit with no attack or cloak.
If I want to feedback I most likely can't storm. And Feedback dmg can vary wildly depending on the energy level from being useless to doing a full 140 dmg to banshees or 200dmg on BC/Thor. In fact Feedback is often limited by the units health to the dmg it can do, so if I feedback a banshee its up to 140dmg while a BC or thor can take "up to 200dmg". If you were so concerned about feedback you could emp your energy units before battle or on banshee spam cloak, or just /lol e click EMP onto the toss army and he will be lucky to get 1 feedback off.
Storm generally will always do 200dmg if not more, probably 300+ on a bio ball.
Snipe is a joke when emp is more beneficial in almost all cases.
On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote: Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
The fact that a spell has uses in other matchups does not justify its weakness in a matchup where it is desperately needed.
EMP's uselessness in TvT and TvZ are pretty much irrelevant since T has Factories and Starports. They don't need them, ever.
This doesn't have to be a Templar vs Ghosts discussion- it'll just result in flaming and stalemate (see thread for proof)... This is about EMP. EMP is too strong.
Terran lategame blobs are too strong without a large number of Colossi present. Their midgame timing push when the first few Ghosts pop is also too powerful, which makes it even harder to get Colossi out. Give EMP a way shittier AoE, make it researched, reduce its range, increase its energy cost, or do some combination of the above.
On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote: Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
The fact that a spell has uses in other matchups does not justify its weakness in a matchup where it is desperately needed.
EMP's uselessness in TvT and TvZ are pretty much irrelevant since T has Factories and Starports. They don't need them, ever.
This doesn't have to be a Templar vs Ghosts discussion- it'll just result in flaming and stalemate (see thread for proof)... This is about EMP. EMP is too strong.
Terran lategame blobs are too strong without a large number of Colossi present. Their midgame timing push when the first few Ghosts pop is also too powerful, which makes it even harder to get Colossi out. Give EMP a way shittier AoE, make it researched, reduce its range, increase its energy cost, or do some combination of the above.
Instead of just nerfing the shit out of the spell to the point where it's basically useless, it makes more sense to me to just have the immortal's hardened shield take only 10 damage from it. That way, it remains a useful spell, but at least toss can do something to help out against those early T timing pushes
On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote: Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
The fact that a spell has uses in other matchups does not justify its weakness in a matchup where it is desperately needed.
EMP's uselessness in TvT and TvZ are pretty much irrelevant since T has Factories and Starports. They don't need them, ever.
This doesn't have to be a Templar vs Ghosts discussion- it'll just result in flaming and stalemate (see thread for proof)... This is about EMP. EMP is too strong.
Terran lategame blobs are too strong without a large number of Colossi present. Their midgame timing push when the first few Ghosts pop is also too powerful, which makes it even harder to get Colossi out. Give EMP a way shittier AoE, make it researched, reduce its range, increase its energy cost, or do some combination of the above.
Instead of just nerfing the shit out of the spell to the point where it's basically useless, it makes more sense to me to just have the immortal's hardened shield take only 10 damage from it. That way, it remains a useful spell, but at least toss can do something to help out against those early T timing pushes
More incentive to spam immortals and less incentive to use Mech (already VERY unpopular)? Horrible suggestion.
Smaller number of sentries, higher number of stalkers (blink-snipe ghosts!), split up sentries, play defensive as you go through the timing window of weakness between ghost coming out and you getting colossus or templar counter.
I agree that P should have another counter earlier (immortal shield blocking it, or a research time on EMP, or some way for sentries to reduce effectiveness) but I don't see it as a "must change" issue. Adds a certain tenseness to that late-early game conflict, especially as P has an advantage quickly once Col comes out...
On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote: Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
The fact that a spell has uses in other matchups does not justify its weakness in a matchup where it is desperately needed.
EMP's uselessness in TvT and TvZ are pretty much irrelevant since T has Factories and Starports. They don't need them, ever.
This doesn't have to be a Templar vs Ghosts discussion- it'll just result in flaming and stalemate (see thread for proof)... This is about EMP. EMP is too strong.
Terran lategame blobs are too strong without a large number of Colossi present. Their midgame timing push when the first few Ghosts pop is also too powerful, which makes it even harder to get Colossi out. Give EMP a way shittier AoE, make it researched, reduce its range, increase its energy cost, or do some combination of the above.
Instead of just nerfing the shit out of the spell to the point where it's basically useless, it makes more sense to me to just have the immortal's hardened shield take only 10 damage from it. That way, it remains a useful spell, but at least toss can do something to help out against those early T timing pushes
I know I suggested it but that won't cut if b/c who builds immortals vs marines rofl. EMP is just way too powerful for how its implemented and its needs changed. EMP range, radius, dmg would be fine, say if it was a missle, did dmg over time, etc. But atm its just stupid and imba. I am actually practicing T b/c of how imba it is vs protoss, but we'll see how blizz handles this.
On July 18 2010 15:10 l90 Proof wrote: Smaller number of sentries, higher number of stalkers (blink-snipe ghosts!), split up sentries, play defensive as you go through the timing window of weakness between ghost coming out and you getting colossus or templar counter.
I agree that P should have another counter earlier (immortal shield blocking it, or a research time on EMP, or some way for sentries to reduce effectiveness) but I don't see it as a "must change" issue. Adds a certain tenseness to that late-early game conflict, especially as P has an advantage quickly once Col comes out...
Wait... you do realize feedback has 9 range and emp rapes it right? Suggesting stalkers who have 6 range is just stupid. This is a MUST change issue b/c of how little skill it takes to emp and there is no tacitical use of emp, its always a good idea to emp, get emp, or add ghosts and its easy to use, easy to get, and easy to tech to.
Vikings have 9 range and have had their speed upgraded, and I can't think of a terran build which doesn't have a starport. If you can't get a few vikings and scan their base or scout otherwise to prepare for collosi (which take forever to get) then its your play that needs work. Tanks also do well against collosi and ravens can help negate stalkers with PDD. I can tell you I never want to engage a Terran with tanks directly esp one with vikings.
The issue is emp is never a real choice, its always good, its easy to get and implement to any army. The other half of the issue is emp is ez to use, cheap, low tier, extremely effective, and the skill differential from defending (its impossible) to using it (literally e-click /lol ) is not fair. Otherwise revert void ray changes since it was "too hard to defend". Keeping double standards on play will make sc2 suffer as an esport.
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
Wait what?
Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots.
HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry.
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi. I need to get different units and micro to stand a chance and when you get stim I have to get additional upgrades just to keep up. Once I get templar or colossi I have the edge over bio. But its taken me a long time just to be able to deal well with your tier 1.5 units.
Templar are near useless in PvP to the point where I never see them built, and I'm top 10 diamond. In PvZ they are excellent vs ling/hydra and bad zerg muta but they don't do much verse roaches, ultras, or brolords. Terran can use tanks (with good position) and 100 HT can't get close. The point is you can alter your build and get units out quickly that are effective vs Templar. As a Toss their is no unit comp or upgrade to deal with ghosts. Protoss air dies to rines (excluding Carriers which are terrible and hard to get), all protoss ground except colossi (and you need several) are severely crippled to the point where you effectively lose 1/2 of your hp and all the utilty from sentries/temps. You can't dodge emp and in mid-late game spreading does nothing b/c you can cover the entire army easily with 2-3 ghosts.
If you complain about storm, guess what you can dodge it, pull back so protoss units share the dmg, spread, etc and thats w/o emp. Not to mention tanks have 13 range and you can manually target templar if you want.
On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote: Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
yea too bad if i have the choice between colossi and ht, it's not even a little close. people are forgetting....not everyone has super crazy micro skills. i'm not that good, so i have trouble getting around this. i have trouble having to micro shields, storm, feedback, and all my other units. i'm new, and i'm not good enough yet. i can only fall back so many times after being emp'd you know? eventually they'll catch up, i'll be at half health, and i'll get stomped. and emp you just have to click by the bulk of the army. for feedback, you have to play where's waldo, and storm takes half a second to react and get out of. emp is a guarantee. there's no argument here. what scares me the most is that i have trouble with terran at my low level...and a lot of them don't always use emp.
Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
Wait what?
Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots.
HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry.
raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality
ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback
On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote: Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi
ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure
but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective
On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote: Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
All good terrans save scan, I learned that in music class. Oh wait its every good boy deserves fudge. But seriously scan and emp itself detects cloaked units, not to mention bioball, cost and time of DTs, etc. GL sniping.
I mean feedback has 9 range, is instant, doesn't require melee and 3 hits and emp goes off no problem. feedback is the best non collosi/carrier counter to emp and those take too long to get out with the later being useless.
DT requires 100minerals 250gas tech building and cost 125/125 which is barely cheaper from a unit standpoint. It also requires a 150min 100gas citadel to access the Shrine, which itself takes... 220sec?!?? something super long...
Most terrans build a 2nd OC early before they expand, doubt a decent terran will lose to DTs or even get his ghosts sniped.
Tbh making it a slowish missle and make a big noise (like from BW) would be fine. You can check for ghosts with alt to see energy, just make Protoss "see" ghosts by glowing if they aren't cloaked, like psionic energy is detected so you can see ghosts easily, under buildings, thors, dships, etc. I can see them in a bioball most of the time now and feel thats fair, but otherwise they are too hard to see when hidden by 3d obstructions.
As a Protoss player, adding a glow to ghosts would be such a wonderful non-gameplay changing feature. It's so easy to miss ghosts in an MMM ball. Even if you look for energy bars, it's so hard to separate them from the marines and medivacs. Even if I find one, it can sometimes be hard to even target them with EMP because of the 3d perspective.
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
Wait what?
Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots.
HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry.
raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality
ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback
On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote: Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi
ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure
but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective
Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early.
EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant.
Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback.
Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW.
I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP.
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
Wait what?
Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots.
HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry.
raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality
ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback
On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote: Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army
On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi
ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure
but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective
Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early.
EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant.
Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback.
Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW.
I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP.
how the hell r u gonna spend ur energy early? heal units before the fight? throw down PDD's premature so he just backs off? upgrade ur m250 cannon and own a statue just so u dont get feedbacked? cloak banshee and prepare for battle to empty all ur energy? common man u cant argue with giving a unit feedback AND storm isnt broken. its like fungual growth and neutral parasite just that storm and feedback kills the unit instead of 36 dmg and kills the unit instead of owning it for 12 seconds
i promise u, ht stalker and zealot and few sentry for guardian shield and u will utterly rape a pure marauder composition
i also kinda dont like the design of emp. its cheap, tons of range, impossible to dodge and good vs like every toss unit, and i really dont think units that are "this unit is good vs everything^.^" fit into rts. but i would put high templar in the same category because these 2 units have been so game changing all beta, and ive been saying that for all beta too how it would come down to emps and storms unless they nerf them and who emp feedback first. turns out im starting to get more right every day. but i think its just straight up stupid to say its imbalanced because ur having issues and top foreigner tosses dont know how to the game works because they play 10 games a week and enter a tournament now and then. we got like 2 toss up there and thats huk and whitera so i would blame the players ALOT more than the actual races
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
Wait what?
Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots.
HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry.
raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality
ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback
On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote: Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army
On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi
ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure
but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective
Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early.
EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant.
Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback.
Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW.
I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP.
how the hell r u gonna spend ur energy early? heal units before the fight? throw down PDD's premature so he just backs off? upgrade ur m250 cannon and own a statue just so u dont get feedbacked? cloak banshee and prepare for battle to empty all ur energy? common man u cant argue with giving a unit feedback AND storm isnt broken. its like fungual growth and neutral parasite just that storm and feedback kills the unit instead of 36 dmg and kills the unit instead of owning it for 12 seconds
i promise u, ht stalker and zealot and few sentry for guardian shield and u will utterly rape a pure marauder composition
i also kinda dont like the design of emp. its cheap, tons of range, impossible to dodge and good vs like every toss unit, and i really dont think units that are "this unit is good vs everything^.^" fit into rts. but i would put high templar in the same category because these 2 units have been so game changing all beta, and ive been saying that for all beta too how it would come down to emps and storms unless they nerf them and who emp feedback first. turns out im starting to get more right every day. but i think its just straight up stupid to say its imbalanced because ur having issues and top foreigner tosses dont know how to the game works because they play 10 games a week and enter a tournament now and then. we got like 2 toss up there and thats huk and whitera so i would blame the players ALOT more than the actual races
feedback is variable in use and u can spend energy by spamming abilities except thor/bc is what I said ur using your abilities preemtively or keeping them away from SLOW high templar. The point is protoss spends a lot on tech and needs 5 or so templar to be effective while a terran needs 2-3 ghosts max and can do the same amount of damage AND negate all our casters. If you took 4 colossi and saw their damage vs bio, thats what 5 temps of gas is about. Hell if feedback is raping you so hard just emp or keep stimming your troops so medivacs don't get 1 shot. The point is there is something you can do to impact the effects of these spells/units. As protoss there is NO way to stop or minimize EMP with any unit comp except mass Colossi/Carrier which isn't viable till far into the midgame if not lategame.
I understand feedback seems really good, and it sometimes is, however feedback isn't ALWAYS good 100% of the time, it only works on casters but if you are going marine/hellion viking tank it does nothing. Protoss always have shields always and have casters more often than any other race as far as I can tell.
I feel as powerless as when marauders started with concussive shell as I do now versus EMP. A small change needs to be made to EMP, personally I think the missle+noise and maybe a bit more gas for academy or research EMP. Hell even a research for bigger EMP radius so spreading might have a decent effect.
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
Wait what?
Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots.
HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry.
raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality
ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback
On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote: Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army
On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi
ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure
but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective
Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early.
EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant.
Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback.
Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW.
I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP.
how the hell r u gonna spend ur energy early? heal units before the fight? throw down PDD's premature so he just backs off? upgrade ur m250 cannon and own a statue just so u dont get feedbacked? cloak banshee and prepare for battle to empty all ur energy? common man u cant argue with giving a unit feedback AND storm isnt broken. its like fungual growth and neutral parasite just that storm and feedback kills the unit instead of 36 dmg and kills the unit instead of owning it for 12 seconds
i promise u, ht stalker and zealot and few sentry for guardian shield and u will utterly rape a pure marauder composition
i also kinda dont like the design of emp. its cheap, tons of range, impossible to dodge and good vs like every toss unit, and i really dont think units that are "this unit is good vs everything^.^" fit into rts. but i would put high templar in the same category because these 2 units have been so game changing all beta, and ive been saying that for all beta too how it would come down to emps and storms unless they nerf them and who emp feedback first. turns out im starting to get more right every day. but i think its just straight up stupid to say its imbalanced because ur having issues and top foreigner tosses dont know how to the game works because they play 10 games a week and enter a tournament now and then. we got like 2 toss up there and thats huk and whitera so i would blame the players ALOT more than the actual races
feedback is variable in use and u can spend energy by spamming abilities except thor/bc is what I said ur using your abilities preemtively or keeping them away from SLOW high templar. The point is protoss spends a lot on tech and needs 5 or so templar to be effective while a terran needs 2-3 ghosts max and can do the same amount of damage AND negate all our casters. If you took 4 colossi and saw their damage vs bio, thats what 5 temps of gas is about. Hell if feedback is raping you so hard just emp or keep stimming your troops so medivacs don't get 1 shot. The point is there is something you can do to impact the effects of these spells/units. As protoss there is NO way to stop or minimize EMP with any unit comp except mass Colossi/Carrier which isn't viable till far into the midgame if not lategame.
I understand feedback seems really good, and it sometimes is, however feedback isn't ALWAYS good 100% of the time, it only works on casters but if you are going marine/hellion viking tank it does nothing. Protoss always have shields always and have casters more often than any other race as far as I can tell.
I feel as powerless as when marauders started with concussive shell as I do now versus EMP. A small change needs to be made to EMP, personally I think the missle+noise and maybe a bit more gas for academy or research EMP. Hell even a research for bigger EMP radius so spreading might have a decent effect.
vs that unit composition u can go stalker guardian shield and colosus
look ur always just gonna find unit compositions that seem to break something, but every unit composition has a counter thats just how it works. but at the end of the day if u sit with 3-4 different unit types and 1-2 of those are spellcasters then u need pretty much 250-350 apm to pull it off like progamers did in sc1. nobody has nowhere near reached an armys potential in tvp. emp and storm sure it seems really fucking strong because it pretty much demolishes everything and is realativily easy to use, but in a halfyear or so ppl will be better at spreading their toss units out will know more about unit composition and its gonna be alot more balanced just because units learn. right now almost all tosses dont know alot about tvp which units to use etc just because its a very hard race to learn while terran can kinda stick with a unit composition thats pretty allround vs everything and toss kinda needs to mix his stuff up more. but back to the actual storm vs emp topic, it doesnt nescasarily have to be imbalanced just because u cant dodge the emps. i can keep my medeivacs in the back and i can keep my raven in the back to avoid PDD but thats just really difficult. at the same time i wanna keep my marines back from the storm and keep my marauder away from getting surrounded by toss. so i dont see the logic of keeping units back because every single terran unit is like that when feedback is here so it all pretty much comes down to terran kiting and toss having slow ass hts that own anything. u should try to play with colosus more, who said ht must be the main splash damage in ur army? just because they have nice gas mineral ratio with zealots doesnt mean its the best way to go. adding a projectile to the emp so u could dodge it like in sc1 and giving feedback to archon would improve this tvp issue 10 times imo. then suddenly u need 500 apm and even smarter players :p
but right now i dont think u can really complain at emp being stronger than storm just like that itself, its so stupid u cant just compare 2 elements and say which one does a better job. it doesnt work like that at all, colosus is the clear and obvious hard counter but its not like u say "ok hes making ghosts so i make tons of colosus", these are support units.
but its all just disgustingly hard in reality to just micro in a tvp battle and terrans might just go ahead and win more of it because as tt1 said, have better a-move units just like toss vs terran in sc1 where toss won on lower levels cause of their a-move :p also its easier to create a logical unit composition for terran because we got a more "forced" tech tree where he have to get everything early on (rax,port,fac) and then can make everything while toss has so many chooses making it more difficult to adapt and the timings
so to sum that up i think both require just as hard micro and timing, terran require more multitasking and macro, apm to simplify it while i think toss require more planning, scouting and unit composing
What are the actual mechanics of EMP? Does it take off a reliable amount of shield every time, or does it drain all shields no matter what? What I am getting at is, do shield upgrades do anything in TvP when they go ghosts?
I've played at least 300+ games this beta phase and probably about 500+ games total as protoss, and have been ranked in the top 15 across diamond leagues this phase as well. I've tried and tested pretty much every possible viable build vs. terran and have come to the conclusion that getting storm is the worse mistake you could do as a toss user, unless it's for lategame harass or you know for SURE the Terran doesn't have ghosts.
EMP not only decimates your army, but makes your sentries and HTs useless BEFORE you even engage into a fight. In actuallity, you could even get EMPed before you even get HTs out because ghosts are so readily obtainable for a Terran. I mean how many new protoss players out there have had the pleasant experience of a Terran scanning up your ramp, EMP spam your sentries, then proceed to march up and destroy you with marauders?
People arguing about HTs being OP because of feedback are just looking for a scapegoat. EMP is supposed to be a way for Protoss to counter bio balls. MnM ball is realistically only beatable with collasus right now, and even with that you need impeccable collasus and stalker blink micro to win against a Terran who is decent.
I honestly believe the source of this evil is the marauder. Forget broodlords, void rays, collasus, the marauder is easily the most overlooked OP unit deserving of a nerf right now. It can survive 2+ storms with easy micro, and destroys anything on the ground coupled with EMP and are cheap as hell.
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
Wait what?
Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots.
HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry.
raven and medeivac it can feedback insta kill every spellcaster we have. i dont understand the ppl who r saying that feedback range is so short, its not short at all and u can just target a ghost wit hfeedback and it will hit exactly when in range and as a terran its pretty hard to just emp a ht that comes u cant use snipe on void ray because they r mechanical lol, their basic attack is 20 vs light sure thats alot but its long cooldown and no stimpack, kinda like saying alright archon has high damage and splash, doesnt work in reality
ghosts r insanely good and i wouldnt mind a nerf but i still think ht is also broken because it has both storm and feedback
On July 18 2010 16:57 rocketboy77 wrote: Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
dt is just a really expensive tech tree and unit and cant really afford to do stuff like this. on top of it all ghost hard counter dt can just emp the dt and kill it then go onto the emping on the army
On July 18 2010 16:42 Ploppytheman wrote:
On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote: but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi
ok. marauder are allround good unit thats sure
but if u get zealot and ht and a few stalker you can RAPE marauder, ppl rnt realizing how little damage they do against zealots. u can exchange the stalkers for colossus and that deals tons of dmg vs marauder too. what many tosses do is like go some of little stuff without thinking what counters what and then get demolished by the marauders because they own everything, but u really just need many many zealots to suck up the damage. sure collosus is better vs marine and sure immortal is pretty useless after early game vs terran but try to just get a big core army of zealot and then work on storming. throw in a voidray or 2 its all good stuff, but just important u have those zealots else the marauder is just gonna eat u in a second. lets just say then will counter ur army if u have like everything but zealot, but thats just because u have no tank, just a bunch of dps and marauder has both. so if u get zea and then dmg stuff then ur on ahead because ur more cost effective
Feedback only kills what has energy, you can easily spend your energy (except thors/bc) by spamming an ability or using them early.
EMP has a radius, feedback does not, therefore EMP wins. Also templar are extremely slow. Even if I feedback at the same time your emp has done its damage b/c its also instant.
Storm can be microed out of and damage can be dealt with. Feedback can also be dealt with by using your abilites early so you don't get feedback.
Yes if you get zealot with CHARGE and Templar you can beat maruaders. But thats a tier 1 unit with a 200/200 upgrade and a Tier 3 unit to beat a Tier 1.5. With proper stim kite you can pull my zealots into the storm to share some damage, and if you got hellions you'd destroy that composition almost as bad as vultures raped zealots in BW.
I don't want EMP to be gutted or anything but balance, but unless EMP somehow changes I can't see a way thats its fair. If Terran is too weak after EMP nerf a buff would be ok, but I don't like that there is almost nothing I can do and what I can do is ineffective to deal with EMP.
I agree. I honestly think that PvT would be completely balanced if EMP was completely removed from the game. As it stands, it is just a huge bonus to Terran players.
On July 18 2010 19:33 Zidane wrote:Although I don't want to derail but
I honestly believe the source of this evil is the marauder. Forget broodlords, void rays, collasus, the marauder is easily the most overlooked OP unit deserving of a nerf right now. It can survive 2+ storms with easy micro, and destroys anything on the ground coupled with EMP and are cheap as hell.
I agree that Marauders are extremely strong once they get Stim. But it is EMP that makes Bioballs so invincible- without EMP, we'd be able to force field behind them to prevent them from stim kiting, we'd be able to use Storms and feedback Medivacs, etc. As is, Protoss is struggling for a viable unit composition because EMP swipes half of your tech tree off of the table without leaving any holes in the Terran's composition (by this I mean that you never see a Ghost + bioball build and go "oh hey, he's vulnerable to ___"). PvT isn't very dynamic, it is a contest of whether the T can get a bioball up and roll over P.
Why not expand the EMP radius to its pre-nerf size, and give it to the Raven (Science vessel style), then lower the energy cost of Snipe. That way Ghosts still offer a way to kill HTs, albeit a more micro-intensive way, and they remain good, cloaking, nuking units. But Terran actually has to tech beyond T1.5 to beat P.
Either that, or EMP needs a serious nerf.
The good thing is that EMP should be relatively easy to balance, since it only affects a single matchup.
On July 18 2010 19:33 Zidane wrote: I've tried and tested pretty much every possible viable build vs. terran and have come to the conclusion that getting storm is the worse mistake you could do as a toss user
This statement is absurd. When I play bio, literally the only thing that completely shuts me down and forces me to tech switch is a good storm user. If you're getting your HTs emped to the point that they're worthless, you're doing it wrong. You should never have your HTs bunched up so they can all get EMPed.
The good storm users I've played do the following:
a) spread their HTs out so they can't get emped b) keep forward pylons so they can warp in and insta-storm once they get amulet c) include units that are hard to run from (i.e. chargelots) so that running from storms is painful d) keeps their HTs in the back of your army. There's no reason you should get them EMPed before getting storms off e) keep an observer around to prevent cloak ninja-emps f) morph them into archons once their power is spent. Archons are excellent tanks
One of the problem for me is that the HTs are damn slow... so slow that if you're moving on the field and the T player catches you (scout, etc.), you'll get in trouble very quickly. Why ?
Ghost rushing on you => EMP. The templars are behind your army, spread or not. The fact is, zealots are without shields and sentrys are useless (considering you actually have sentrys and HT... nice gas ghost... btw it make me laugh so hard when T players say the ghost is expensive).
So sentry without energy = no force field. No force field = pure rape by stim marauders/marines. Storm ? Lol... no storm here. The fight is so fast the zealots are kited and the HTs can't join the zealots. What happens is the marauders own the zealots, then the poor HTs who didn't have a chance to storm all over the place. Oh wait... they did... but the MMM just backed and the zealots ate it.
And I am not talking about macroing in ur base without looking the battle. (when did the terran become the hard macro race ? sorry I just can't see...)
To balance the MU I'd give a great buff to HT's speed... that seems stupide, but I really think it can help. Then the toss player will actually be able to really storm the death ball without eating the storms himself.
Give me a HT with instant storm, feedback, warpin anyday of the week over a shity ghost with emp. Emp is only better early game to disable immortal shields and easy to hit sentries. Once it gets to the midgame and late the templar has just so many more advantages than a ghost. Warp in + instant storm is a completly broken mechanic to. Try to break protoss expos once templars got both upgrades up is virtualy impossible cause 24/7 storm. Early game emp might need a nerf but in the mid game its totaly fine as it is.
On July 18 2010 19:26 MarzH05 wrote: What are the actual mechanics of EMP? Does it take off a reliable amount of shield every time, or does it drain all shields no matter what? What I am getting at is, do shield upgrades do anything in TvP when they go ghosts?
EMP drains 100 shield points, drains all energy and uncloacks.
On July 18 2010 19:26 MarzH05 wrote: What are the actual mechanics of EMP? Does it take off a reliable amount of shield every time, or does it drain all shields no matter what? What I am getting at is, do shield upgrades do anything in TvP when they go ghosts?
EMP drains 100 shield points, drains all energy and uncloacks.
This is Starcraft 2 WINGS OF LIBERTY. Its too bad that Flash or Fantasy still havent got into hard core practice with SC2 and picked Terran. Then we would only watch rofl-mega-stomp of every other player who dares to challenge them no matter theyr Korean or no.
Pls, PLS PLS.. if u care for ur consumers be reasonable and make a game that is FAIR. 200/200 research for EMP at ghost academy would be a good start.
mass marine with combat shield and stim > all protoss ground and air exept tier 3 HT and colo Marauders with stim > ALL protoss ground EMP > ALL protoss units exept Colossi, Carrier and Mothership (rofl who builds that?) Viking > ALL protoss air, RANGE 9 !! (it doesent win vs phoenix 1 v1 but also phoenix costs more and is not so easy to mass. it does win in mass) Tanks > ALL protoss ground
There is just too many units that counter a LOT of protoss units in the same time and combined that with CHEAP and easily attainable EMP u draw the conclusion. Im not going to buy the game untill they patch it right and fair.
On July 19 2010 03:47 MarzH05 wrote: So how much shield do gateway units have, and how much of a bonus do they get with the first shield upgrade?
depends on the gateway unit, but usually anywhere from 40 - 100 sounds about right for shields. and the combat shield upgrade for marines get +10 hp which is nice to have. EMP does not need to be nerfed, if you take that away, you take away the only use for ghost other than a very expensive glass pick cannon.
if anything, players need to better manage their units, or protoss may need a slight buff early game for EMP, but as it stands... i have a harder time vs voidrays
I don't understand why EMP has any business killing shields as well as draining energy, wouldn't it still be very good if it just drained energy while not destroying a protoss ground force?
A lot of people has suggested that Collosus is a counter against the MMM blog and EMPs, but they forget the fact that collosus takes time to build inorder to be effective.
Robo->Bay->Collosus->Thermal Lance? That's alot of teching, and if a toss chooses that route than they will be punished, economic and army wise. Terrans can easily float a building/scan and see ur bay and adapt to that, either by marching their ball to ur base or go vikings. Besides, teching to ghost is faster than an effective collosus.
People have suggested that proper spread with speedlots + sentry can counter a terran ball. In theory, that seems right but when you actually play, it doesn't work. The protoss army will eventually clump up when actually engaging the ball, and a few EMPs can melt the zealots, and render the sentries completely useless.
Choosing your tech as a protoss is also critical, because a protoss early game can either choose to go HTs or Collosus, choosing both tech early on will not work. What this means is that, you cant have both speedlots and Collosus early on to counter the ball. That is too much resources wasted to make it effective. (Core->Twilight council->Leg speed->Robo->Bay->Collosus->Thermal Lance is alot of investment and time). That also means that if you go speedlots->HT than you become very vulnerable to early terran push because they can EMP your units and push in before your storm research even finishes.
I would like to suggest that EMP should be reduced to either draining shield or energy only.
As a shitty silver player I use ghost marine with a splash of marader and medivac in my tvp and win about 65-75% of my games. Colossi usually thrash this build. Sure you can attack before collosi are up. But you need to take into effect you need stim combat shield an medivacs in order for this concept to really be effective. 1 or 2 colossi with lance can usually hold this off and the tosses Econ is generally better then the terrans. And get overrun. I love when I am using this build and see immortals because emp is that awsome. Well that's my $.02 from the silver leagues.
It is always easy to make an incorrect claim that a unit or spell needs to be nerfed and to make it seem at first glance logical. The only thing you need to do to make a unit seem to need a nerf is to post a scenario where one side mismanages a set of units and gets them fucked up by an opponent.
For example, you could clearly say that you should nerf storm actually. Why? Well, marines cannot be moved out of a storm under any circumstance. If you storm marines they die, instantly, no matter how fast your reaction time is you cannot actually move them out of the storm before they die. I have had games where I lost to much worse players while going marine/ghost simply because I missed a few high templars and then just 3-4 storms instantly annihilate an entire army of 40+ supply.
Even if I could pull 500 apm those marines are still dead as soon as the storms land. You could with quite reasonable arguments claim that storm needs a nerf or that marines need a buff, but you would be wrong.
Because the reason that I lose in those cases was because I fucked up before those storms went off, I was attacking into a position without having full view over any approaching templars, I did not spread out my marines before the storms hit and I did not emp the templars before they stormed.
This applies to 99 out of 100 claims that some balance change absolute has to be made. The most effective solution is just to figure out how to not fuck up instead.
Marines are already buffed with 45 HP and Combat Shield capability, so no, they don't die instantly to storms.
Better yet, you shouldn't even be going Marines versus HTs, but should be going Marauders who can easily survive 2 storms if you can micro worth a damn.
On July 19 2010 07:24 VanGarde wrote: It is always easy to make an incorrect claim that a unit or spell needs to be nerfed and to make it seem at first glance logical. The only thing you need to do to make a unit seem to need a nerf is to post a scenario where one side mismanages a set of units and gets them fucked up by an opponent.
For example, you could clearly say that you should nerf storm actually. Why? Well, marines cannot be moved out of a storm under any circumstance. If you storm marines they die, instantly, no matter how fast your reaction time is you cannot actually move them out of the storm before they die. I have had games where I lost to much worse players while going marine/ghost simply because I missed a few high templars and then just 3-4 storms instantly annihilate an entire army of 40+ supply.
Even if I could pull 500 apm those marines are still dead as soon as the storms land. You could with quite reasonable arguments claim that storm needs a nerf or that marines need a buff, but you would be wrong.
Because the reason that I lose in those cases was because I fucked up before those storms went off, I was attacking into a position without having full view over any approaching templars, I did not spread out my marines before the storms hit and I did not emp the templars before they stormed.
This applies to 99 out of 100 claims that some balance change absolute has to be made. The most effective solution is just to figure out how to not fuck up instead.
BUT ITS SO MUCH EASIER TO JUST COMPLAIN YO - it really seems like the WoW mentality of imba this imba that your class/race is OP/easytoplay has manifested itself into SC2.
Also 2 storms over each other WILL almost instantly kill marines. I've been trying to practice my PvT lategame by purposefully going with expo-oriented openings (ghosts---> expo; gretorp style). Even having plentiful ghosts I still have trouble with templar/zealot armies late game with storms taking tons of hp off my armies. Yes, I attack retreat micro my troops. I don't think storm is imba at all, I probably just need to spread out more.
so can anyone tell me what i should have done, i had the so called "counters" to marauders, how comes he still a-moves me to death. and u cant spread your forces against 3 ghosts, thats impossible.
i stopped building collosus when his vikings showed up, so i sticked with charge zeals and immortals, u see the result
On August 06 2010 08:10 Lucius2 wrote: so i thought i bring up this thread again:
[url blocked]
only marauder and emp = a-move win
so can anyone tell me what i should have done, i had the so called "counters" to marauders, how comes he still a-moves me to death. and u cant spread your forces against 3 ghosts, thats impossible.
i stopped building collosus when his vikings showed up, so i sticked with charge zeals and immortals, u see the result
seems like you could've done well with your 2 colossus had you counter attacked at around 14:00. But instead of chasing down the defeated enemy army you decided to stay home.
early void rays also seems to work against marauder heavy builds pretty well.
I think it's only a matter of time before Blizz nerfs EMP. Consider the following:
EMP does a maximum of 100 damage. Storm does a maximum of 80 damage. EMP has a radius of 2.0, Storm has a radius of 1.5. This means that 9 times out of 10 EMP will do more damage than storm because it hits far more units. EMP is instant, cannot be dodged and cannot be moved out of. EMP does not need to be upgraded. EMP has a range of 10, Storm has a range of 9. EMP also has the effect of removing all energy from any units in its area of effect. EMP also has the effect of revealing cloaked units.
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
On August 08 2010 12:59 McCain wrote: I think it's only a matter of time before Blizz nerfs EMP. Consider the following:
EMP does a maximum of 100 damage. Storm does a maximum of 80 damage. EMP has a radius of 2.0, Storm has a radius of 1.5. This means that 9 times out of 10 EMP will do more damage than storm because it hits far more units. EMP is instant, cannot be dodged and cannot be moved out of. EMP does not need to be upgraded. EMP has a range of 10, Storm has a range of 9. EMP also has the effect of removing all energy from any units in its area of effect. EMP also has the effect of revealing cloaked units.
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
Storm =/= EMP Storm hits life and shield's, EMP only hits shields. I don't know why you're making this specific comparison. That's like saying a sentries force field is over powered and comparing it to neural parasite. If EMP did get the changes you've stated, I cannot even imagine what you would say about fungal growth..
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
they need to do this quickly.
claiming that people are just qq'ing or that zerg/protoss need to l2p or use more tactics is absurd. many of us have been playing this game for months now, we know the matchups. sc2 is supposed to be a competitive game. to be competitive it needs to be balanced. when 2 players of equal skill go against each other the choice of race should NOT tip the scales towards one side or the other, but the game in its current form does exactly this.
all i can say to terran players that think zerg and to a lesser extent protoss are crybabies is try the other races for yourself. there IS a difference and it is not that subtle.
blizzard has certainly mined the data from all the games we have played. everything we post they already know. its up to them to make some changes.
On August 08 2010 12:59 McCain wrote: I think it's only a matter of time before Blizz nerfs EMP. Consider the following:
EMP does a maximum of 100 damage. Storm does a maximum of 80 damage. EMP has a radius of 2.0, Storm has a radius of 1.5. This means that 9 times out of 10 EMP will do more damage than storm because it hits far more units. EMP is instant, cannot be dodged and cannot be moved out of. EMP does not need to be upgraded. EMP has a range of 10, Storm has a range of 9. EMP also has the effect of removing all energy from any units in its area of effect. EMP also has the effect of revealing cloaked units.
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
EMP is also worthless against Zerg. You can't merely compare two things and say that's the end of it. Shall we compare a Zergling and a Zealot? A Marine and a Hyda? You're not balancing the game like that you're just making everything the same.
EMP is fine. It's strong and anything that is strong can handle a nerf, but that doesn't mean that it has to be nerfed. I'd rather they give Immortals a shield upgrade that let's them tank an EMP blast with shields in tact (maybe + 10-20) then nerf EMP.
On August 08 2010 12:59 McCain wrote: I think it's only a matter of time before Blizz nerfs EMP. Consider the following:
EMP does a maximum of 100 damage. Storm does a maximum of 80 damage. EMP has a radius of 2.0, Storm has a radius of 1.5. This means that 9 times out of 10 EMP will do more damage than storm because it hits far more units. EMP is instant, cannot be dodged and cannot be moved out of. EMP does not need to be upgraded. EMP has a range of 10, Storm has a range of 9. EMP also has the effect of removing all energy from any units in its area of effect. EMP also has the effect of revealing cloaked units.
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
EMP is also worthless against Zerg. You can't merely compare two things and say that's the end of it. Shall we compare a Zergling and a Zealot? A Marine and a Hyda? You're not balancing the game like that you're just making everything the same.
EMP is fine. It's strong and anything that is strong can handle a nerf, but that doesn't mean that it has to be nerfed. I'd rather they give Immortals a shield upgrade that let's them tank an EMP blast with shields in tact (maybe + 10-20) then nerf EMP.
EMP is fine.
To stop all the protoss crying, I say we give them an AOE ability that do:
100 dmg to all mechanical unit radius of 3 range 10 75 energy no research tec building at 150/50 and drain all energy in that area and reveal invisible units and instant dmg ofcoures so that is not doggeable.
Holy shit, how can Terran even say emp is fine? If blizzard actually give protoss this ability, even the protoss would say its OP. Not even the fucking mothership have an ability as imba as the current emp.
[QUOTE]On July 19 2010 08:26 Entropic wrote: [QUOTE]On July 19 2010 07:24 VanGarde wrote: Also 2 storms over each other WILL almost instantly kill marines. .[/QUOTE]
few things, what does storm kill? marines. deals significant damage to marauders. lings. deals significant if not fatal damage to hydras. drones, marines, probes. what does emp kill? ... thank you.
also, thank you for the guy who brought this thread back just so he could complain about how he lost.
people complain too much. I think protoss players complain the most, about the most ridiculous things. like the protoss player who offraced as zerg and complained about terran being able to mass up tier 1 and 1a after I pulled his entire army out of position with 1 banshee in his main, so I could set up my siege tanks, and then he ran his army into sieged tanks and lost. or the guy who called me homosexual and jewish after I did a timing push, when he had no defense.
and 2 months isn't really enough time to flesh a game out enough. there were periods of time in BW where win percentages of certain races were like 15% and things didn't get patched, people worked out new strategies.
Blizzard has data, and will change things if they deem necessary, but you whining that you can't win isn't going to change anything and makes you sound like a pansy who can't stand losing at a computer game.
On August 08 2010 19:07 FoUsTy wrote: STORM DOESN'T STACK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Strictly speaking, 1 storm is enough to kill marines. The only reason they don't die is if they move out--in which case the fact that they don't stack is irrelevant, because you storm where they moved to.
Quoting something from another thread that is relevant here:
On August 08 2010 03:25 Tor wrote: Ghost vs Hight Templar is really just a vision war and Protoss have observers. Your feedback could have range 11, it wouldn't mean you'd actually hit the ghost. If the ghost prematurely emps then you just run back and regen shields. If you engaged in a head to head battle with stalkers/ht vs mnm/ghosts where they emp and hit all shields and your ht then you screwed up. You're complaining because you just don't understand how the ht/ghost dynamic works. The units counter eachother. And both can be very unforgiving. It might be easier to use ghosts to beat ht but that doesn't mean they aren't balanced. Proper play can make ghosts just as ineffective. In any event the units themselves aren't mirrored. You can't compare a ht with a ghost in a vacuum. Each units is incredibly different and has different roles. You can't warp ghosts in at any pylon with enough energy to storm. You can't actually kill protoss units with emp. Emp doesn't have a cumulative benefit.
In short: both units have longer range than sight. so whoever has the sight advantage wins.
EPT
You don't have to suicide your half HP army into his ball after an EMP just to come to the forums to whine about it.
(
