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On May 04 2010 09:27 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 07:44 HoroBoro wrote:On May 04 2010 07:33 Wargizmo wrote:
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now. 54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance. You need to take a statistics course, because throwing out statistical terms incorrectly makes you look stupid. EMP is fine, Protoss already beats Terran a majority of the time. If EMP was nerfed at all, Terran would have absolutely no chance at all because without EMP Terran's ground forces just get absolutely demolished (air forces as well because of void rays). The fact that Terran basically has to use EMP as a crutch to even have a chance (and still lose most games) shows that T needs to be buffed, not nerfed.
My bad. Thought they did some analysis and found that terran was winning 54-46% vs toss in even skill games. Didn't notice those numbers added up to 100. Obviously this thread is messing with me.
Terran does not have to use emp as a crutch. Many many games are won without terran having to resort to emp. Just as many games are won without toss going templar.
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i think people who complain about EMP are the players who mass immortals or they mass stalkers.
try doing a different unit combination as against terran when i have charge zealots/sentries/maybe 2-3 immortals i do fine even with an EMP.
with that said....why can't terran have warp gates?! =\. i want a warp rax or a warp factory oh yes....oh yes baby.
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I can't believe Protoss users are complaining about TvP, of all matchups. It is the most lopsided matchup in SC2 right now.
Here is the developer chat in question. It is dated 4/30.
Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups?
We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this.
Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54%
Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even.
Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers.
Source: http://www.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/blizzchat_developer_chat_on_twitter_4_30_transcript/
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Anyone care to wager on how many times that stat gets quoted in this thread before it dies?
I'll give 2 to 1 odds on 10+.
On May 04 2010 10:42 ahcho00 wrote:
with that said....why can't terran have warp gates?! =\. i want a warp rax or a warp factory oh yes....oh yes baby.
OH oh, i know this one!
What are reactors?
I'll take things we type without thinking for 500, Alex.
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it balances out when the ghost emp's itself :D
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If EMP absolutely destroyed toss so badly, you would see it running rampant everywhere. that comment will probably spark a bunch of people to say "OMG I just lost 99999 games solely due to EMP", but really, watch some "top" replays (ie replay packs from zotac, Go4SC2, etc...).
i can't remember the last time i saw a good replay of tvp where the terran even made ghosts. there are all sorts of strats they do so obviously the EMP isnt the race destroying spell people are making it out to be.
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On May 04 2010 10:23 HoroBoro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 09:27 iEchoic wrote:On May 04 2010 07:44 HoroBoro wrote:On May 04 2010 07:33 Wargizmo wrote:
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now. 54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance. You need to take a statistics course, because throwing out statistical terms incorrectly makes you look stupid. EMP is fine, Protoss already beats Terran a majority of the time. If EMP was nerfed at all, Terran would have absolutely no chance at all because without EMP Terran's ground forces just get absolutely demolished (air forces as well because of void rays). The fact that Terran basically has to use EMP as a crutch to even have a chance (and still lose most games) shows that T needs to be buffed, not nerfed. My bad. Thought they did some analysis and found that terran was winning 54-46% vs toss in even skill games. Didn't notice those numbers added up to 100. Obviously this thread is messing with me. Terran does not have to use emp as a crutch. Many many games are won without terran having to resort to emp. Just as many games are won without toss going templar.
That's simply untrue.. Unless you're going for some kind of rush cheese or a banshee build you need EMP or you die. It's as important as stim pack, which you also need or you die.
Incidentally I'm asking for TvP help in a different thread so here's a replay using the so-called overpowered EMP
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/3366
Surprisingly it didn't result in an autowin for me even though the army sizes were fairly compareable. Toss is rank 8 gold I'm rank 13 plat.
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On May 04 2010 10:55 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 10:23 HoroBoro wrote:On May 04 2010 09:27 iEchoic wrote:On May 04 2010 07:44 HoroBoro wrote:On May 04 2010 07:33 Wargizmo wrote:
According to Blizzard (see the Dev chat on the weekend) the stats for PvT are currently 54% - 46% in favour of the Protoss, if anything EMP should be buffed since it's the only way to imrpove TvP without adversely affecting TvZ which is almost perfectly balanced right now. 54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance. You need to take a statistics course, because throwing out statistical terms incorrectly makes you look stupid. EMP is fine, Protoss already beats Terran a majority of the time. If EMP was nerfed at all, Terran would have absolutely no chance at all because without EMP Terran's ground forces just get absolutely demolished (air forces as well because of void rays). The fact that Terran basically has to use EMP as a crutch to even have a chance (and still lose most games) shows that T needs to be buffed, not nerfed. My bad. Thought they did some analysis and found that terran was winning 54-46% vs toss in even skill games. Didn't notice those numbers added up to 100. Obviously this thread is messing with me. Terran does not have to use emp as a crutch. Many many games are won without terran having to resort to emp. Just as many games are won without toss going templar. That's simply untrue.. Unless you're going for some kind of rush cheese or a banshee build you need EMP or you die. It's as important as stim pack, which you also need or you die. Incidentally I'm asking for TvP help in a different thread so here's a replay using the so-called overpowered EMP http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/3366Surprisingly it didn't result in an autowin for me even though the army sizes were fairly compareable. Toss is rank 8 gold I'm rank 13 plat.
- The army sizes weren't comparable, he had an advantage.
- The Protess hit the ideal timing window. You had spent a ton of money getting your expansion up and were just starting to throw down more production buildings.
- You miss-microed your units. Next time force the Protess into the choke. You'll be able to EMP literally all of his units.
That game could have been yours, the reason you lost has nothing to do with Terran versus Protoss. You expanded and didn't play defensively; he pushed off of one base and punished you for it. You had 41 SCVs to his 26, so next time bunker up and play defensively until you start pulling ahead because of your expansion. Also, try and throw down your 4th and 5th barracks earlier. You had a ton of resources you couldn't spend because you stayed on 3 barracks for too long.
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"Split up your forces!"
Yeah it's not like 3 ghosts can't completely spam the damn thing
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if im not mistakened, high templar + feedback can outrange EMP.
not only do you drain his energy, but you also kill the ghost, so thats a double plus. Just make sure not to clump your spell casters and/or units in one area. If anything, try flanking, cause that will cause him to work a little harder to EMP all your units
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Have fun when blizzard releases the patch to increase terran's win rate in TvP.
To those of you complaining about this so adamantly: You are not the victim of some kind of imbalance, you are the victim of being outplayed.
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nope ghost emp has a range of 10 and high templar feedback has a range of 9
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Protoss 54% : 46% Terran
Yep, it's time to nerf emp. Should probably double the cost and training time of marauders too. Also, High Templars are now invisible, have a range of 20, and are t1. Lastly, remove zerg from the game and make terran gather resources at 1/4 speed. Using a mule makes your command center explode.
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This isn't Warcraft 1 and 2 where every race needs to match (HT and ghost) just like zealot isn't equal to a zergling or a marine.
EMP was in BW and protoss seemed to deal with it. And science vessels were already on most battlefields for many reasons.
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On May 04 2010 13:20 The-Dom wrote:
This isn't Warcraft 1 and 2 where every race needs to match (HT and ghost) just like zealot isn't equal to a zergling or a marine.
EMP was in BW and protoss seemed to deal with it. And science vessels were already on most battlefields for many reasons.
EMP was also dodgeable then and on a t3 air unit.
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EMP vs Toss in SC2 is the same as Dark Swarm vs Terran in BW
Game changing, OP, and balanced
Deal with it.
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On May 04 2010 13:23 sob3k wrote:
EMP vs Toss in SC2 is the same as Dark Swarm vs Terran in BW
Game changing, OP, and balanced
Deal with it.
That would explain the massive psi storm nerfs aswell then?
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Maybe micro the HT in a Warp Prism to avoid EMP like a reaver in shuttle in SC 1...Toss in the Predy v. FirstandLast game did that. Heh.
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On May 04 2010 13:07 Precipice wrote:
Protoss 54% : 46% Terran
Yep, it's time to nerf emp. Should probably double the cost and training time of marauders too. Also, High Templars are now invisible, have a range of 20, and are t1. Lastly, remove zerg from the game and make terran gather resources at 1/4 speed. Using a mule makes your command center explode.
BW Protoss 55%:45% Terran
OMFG ITS FUCKING IMBA NO WAY TO WIN
=.=
obviously something like emp nerf would be accompanied by corresponding buffs to balance it out
seriously how do you think your post helps at all?
On May 04 2010 13:23 sob3k wrote:
EMP vs Toss in SC2 is the same as Dark Swarm vs Terran in BW
Game changing, OP, and balanced
Deal with it.
Dark Swarm is hive tech ffs. Ghost tech barely qualifies as tier 2. thats a HUGE difference. i for one think that just making emp researchable is enough of a nerf so that there isnt a ridiculously huge window between when emp comes out and when toss can get a viable counter (HT/Colossi)
On May 04 2010 13:33 Nerdrage wrote:
Maybe micro the HT in a Warp Prism to avoid EMP like a reaver in shuttle in SC 1...Toss in the Predy v. FirstandLast game did that. Heh.
Circular logic, terran sticks ghost in medivacs to counter. medivacs are more accessible and useful in fights than warp prisms
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I'm having issues with EMP not because it takes pretty much half my army's sustainable HP away, but because of it's ridiculous AOE and cast range. I realize that EMP is only at maximum effectiveness against toss, and not against Zerg or Terran, but yea, so let's have this skill demolish 1 race, because it's meant for them solely, so i guess toss players should feel special?
Also, I know that I dotn need a supply depot to build a barracks.
I'm a Protoss player, and I don't think the Terran ghost emp should be nerfed, but the templar positioning is tricky, but like I said, let’s just say I hate defending Terran. I wonder if the outcome of a battle can be decided by a few good psi storms in sc1? Or in sc2 a few good storms and templar feedback. Good spell placement wins battles period. That's what they're there to do.
Read this thread. There's no proof of anything posted anywhere. There's pseudo mathematical discussions about cost and timing, and then there's 6 pages of people posting their feelings and experiences. It's a terrible discussion with nothing objective whatsoever.
BUT
You need to take a statistics course, because throwing out statistical terms incorrectly makes you look stupid.
I rest my case.
DangerMan Out.
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EPT
