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On May 04 2010 13:33 Nerdrage wrote:
Maybe micro the HT in a Warp Prism to avoid EMP like a reaver in shuttle in SC 1...Toss in the Predy v. FirstandLast game did that. Heh.
Just so we're clear. I need a t3 unit, with an upgrade (or two) if i want it to do anything else, and a t2 transport...
to counter a t2 unit with a baseline ability, that also knocks the shield off anyting near-by.
I'll let that sink in.
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Op said it really well. IMO if they do not want to nerf terran's EMP, they should put the old storm back. Would be the best.
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i Understand where you guys are goign with this, but I have discussed a bit of strategy with some of the RTS professional players (including nR)Le3r0yJenkin5) and this is waht you need to know in order to succeed.
Firstly, the RMP is not like the DGs, even when studied down to the hardwire mathematics. Ataccking before first command when against anyone other than TGS protoss players or fly-by terran is a mistake unless you have perfecting timing to cancel the gerbs and the LS. But the LS will not be up until the same time as your fort and TE.
The best thing to do when in doubt about EMS and EMP is to just do the same strategy when playing vs LKK players or crom-abusers. All of the KYI can bring you the same energy levels as the CCS. Just think of it as the player does not know where your BYP is placed, or even if he does, you can always proto-lame like that game where joseki placed his UIs in the 7 o'clock position.
Danger Out.
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On May 04 2010 13:47 DangerMan wrote:
i Understand where you guys are goign with this, but I have discussed a bit of strategy with some of the RTS professional players (including nR)Le3r0yJenkin5) and this is waht you need to know in order to succeed.
Firstly, the RMP is not like the DGs, even when studied down to the hardwire mathematics. Ataccking before first command when against anyone other than TGS protoss players or fly-by terran is a mistake unless you have perfecting timing to cancel the gerbs and the LS. But the LS will not be up until the same time as your fort and TE.
The best thing to do when in doubt about EMS and EMP is to just do the same strategy when playing vs LKK players or crom-abusers. All of the KYI can bring you the same energy levels as the CCS. Just think of it as the player does not know where your BYP is placed, or even if he does, you can always proto-lame like that game where joseki placed his UIs in the 7 o'clock position.
Danger Out.
Can anyone translate that for me?
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On May 04 2010 13:47 DangerMan wrote:
i Understand where you guys are goign with this, but I have discussed a bit of strategy with some of the RTS professional players (including nR)Le3r0yJenkin5) and this is waht you need to know in order to succeed.
Firstly, the RMP is not like the DGs, even when studied down to the hardwire mathematics. Ataccking before first command when against anyone other than TGS protoss players or fly-by terran is a mistake unless you have perfecting timing to cancel the gerbs and the LS. But the LS will not be up until the same time as your fort and TE.
The best thing to do when in doubt about EMS and EMP is to just do the same strategy when playing vs LKK players or crom-abusers. All of the KYI can bring you the same energy levels as the CCS. Just think of it as the player does not know where your BYP is placed, or even if he does, you can always proto-lame like that game where joseki placed his UIs in the 7 o'clock position.
Danger Out.
I also crunched the numbers with leeroy but before he went to get some chicken he brought up an interesting point: That aint falco.
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for the OP, when dealing with ghosts, I've been trying a flank. Usually the main army with a secondary consisting mainly of speedlots. Send the speedlots in first if he sees it he will waste his emp if he doesnt your speelots get into the meat of his army. For the main army I put up the shields the second I see his army and decide to engage and I crank up the shield and charge in head first. If you let me dictate the battle he will be able choose what to emp and that is GG. Again this strategy only works when you and the terran has an equal army and since my micro sucks I've been succesful about 60% of the time but its getting better. If its a tight map like incineration, I go DT's and take the loss =)
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GODZILLAAAA,
ARHGARHGAHRGAHGHARHG.
Remember me for who I was, and not who I will become... FAREWELL STOR4EVER. WE WILL MEET AGAIN. But for now, I shall keep my identity secret. SO LONG SUCKERS.
joseki out
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54%-46% is a 8% margin of error. It does not indicate either race being balanced or imbalanced as it does not even meet the 5% (largest threshold) test of statistical significance.
Right now, they, as well as we, do not know which race is imbalanced.
Alrite: back on topic - buff toss nerf terran gg no re k?
I totally agree with what you said, but I'd like to point something else.
For those who said that the 54%-46% statistics are a proof of the balance of the EMP, I think this deduction is not a valid one. It could be the case only if those stastistics assumed that in every match lost by Terran EMP was used.
But there is no reason to think this is the case at all, because a lot of games are very short mostly because of protoss pushing with 4 gates and Terran not going ghosts at all because needing to stand some defensive positions with tanks and reach the marauder critical mass. As this two units have a heavy gaz cost, and that terran may add medivac or banshee, ghosts don't come so fast or I must say don't come at all if the game is lose before and so there is no EMP. This seems pretty logic if we think to the economy and the way terran use to play vs protoss to counter 4 gates push.
I suggest just have a look on the game where ghost are produced and EMP used. There is some kind of long TvP games on the HD and Husky VOD and you'll see that most of them with EMP are win by Terrans.
At last I want to add that EMP is really far more better than psy-storm in TvP because it does instant dommage, and spreading with a huge army permit mostly to run away from psystorm when it is cast on you and not being block by other units. In the case of the EMP this is instant dammage, you can't do anything against that. Spreading cannot help to get your unit safe from it until the Terran have not only one ghost. Think when you are protoss with psystorm, it's hard to miss anything, but even if your psy are cast right under the units, a right spread permit to run away. With ghost it's likely to be the same if you get enough of it except your opponent can't run out of it because it's instant.
And then, as the original post says, because EMP drains energy from the sentries it not only does dammage but totally ruin the combinaison of zealot sentries leaving those units uneffective.
Psy-storm doesn't do it at all. Maybe feedback would be more likely to destroy some strategy like the medivac + marauders (preventing some kind of : stim, kite, heal, etc... ).
Btw: I'm protoss player in gold league, and yes I can understand Terran complaining about sentries and FF, but even if sentries are OP that doesn't mean EMP can't be discuss seriously considering the further fact that it prevents sentries from FF.
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I believe it was said that if you account for the apparent skill level of players, the difference between Protoss and Terran disappears; it just happens that stronger players tend to play Protoss. Maybe I'm recalling it wrong.
From my experience, EMP generally comes out as a wash. The armies I face with it tend to be smaller, so even though losing shields and energy sucks, the opposing force is less strong to begin with. If you let the ghost build up energy it can be painful, so I like to keep the pressure on early so that only one EMP can ever be used at a time, or I force the Terran to over-invest in ghosts.
On May 04 2010 13:33 Nerdrage wrote:
Maybe micro the HT in a Warp Prism to avoid EMP like a reaver in shuttle in SC 1...Toss in the Predy v. FirstandLast game did that. Heh.
Hmm awesome idea, I'll have to try that some time =).
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On May 04 2010 15:25 Sentient wrote:
I believe it was said that if you account for the apparent skill level of players, the difference between Protoss and Terran disappears; it just happens that stronger players tend to play Protoss. Maybe I'm recalling it wrong.
Go look at lucifron vs MyMDeMusliM, they switched off and whoever was T always lost.
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Let's de-rail into a void-ray discussion?
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EMP is powerful yeah.
But it doesnt need to be toned down; all races have powerful abilities its what makes this game interesting
Playing a game with all zealots for each race would be balanced but sure as hell wouldnt be fun.
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i think the old sc1 speedupgrade for zealtos would fix this. the biggest problem is, that melee units are useless against any middle sized ranged army or some marauders without FF.
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On May 04 2010 15:34 metamonk3y wrote:
EMP is powerful yeah.
But it doesnt need to be toned down; all races have powerful abilities its what makes this game interesting
Playing a game with all zealots for each race would be balanced but sure as hell wouldnt be fun.
Yea, let's boil any imbalance down to "man if everything was totally the same, it would suck."
That's a horrible cop-out.
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On May 04 2010 11:44 Toran7 wrote:
"Split up your forces!"
Yeah it's not like 3 ghosts can't completely spam the damn thing It's not like the Protoss haven't made Colossi/DT/Void Ray by the time Terran can afford to spend that much money on Ghosts without being overwhelmed.
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People should be posting in a thread on HOW to deal with EMP rather than how imbalanced it is.
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^
I know people have said this, but I'm going to say it again.
What works for me most of the time is rather than trying to take out the ghosts before emp - let's face it, their range is usually too great unless you have phoenix or whatever - you need to really pay attention to spreading out your units across as many fronts as possible.
On top of that, don't just let all you immortals go on one clump and all your sentries in another. Each little clump of units needs to have a solid mix, so when EMP hits one group, the others can fill in.
This can be easier said than done if you are caught by surprise. However, I try to never let my units form a ball at any time, so even a sneak attack from a cloaked ghost will not get my entire army. An example might be when you are on a defensive posture at your natural. Don't just let your army ball up. It is imperative that you keep it spread out as much as you can.
Edit: wanted to add that tricking the terran player by hallucinating some HTs is also a good idea. Keep them away from everything else and he will often waste multiple EMPs trying to get them.
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On May 04 2010 22:37 shiftY803 wrote:
^
I know people have said this, but I'm going to say it again.
What works for me most of the time is rather than trying to take out the ghosts before emp - let's face it, their range is usually too great unless you have phoenix or whatever - you need to really pay attention to spreading out your units across as many fronts as possible.
On top of that, don't just let all you immortals go on one clump and all your sentries in another. Each little clump of units needs to have a solid mix, so when EMP hits one group, the others can fill in.
This can be easier said than done if you are caught by surprise. However, I try to never let my units form a ball at any time, so even a sneak attack from a cloaked ghost will not get my entire army. An example might be when you are on a defensive posture at your natural. Don't just let your army ball up. It is imperative that you keep it spread out as much as you can.
Edit: wanted to add that tricking the terran player by hallucinating some HTs is also a good idea. Keep them away from everything else and he will often waste multiple EMPs trying to get them.
was thinking about the same thing with hallcinate, but rather with immortals given the timeframe of ghosts vs. HT, have 2~3 immortals images run on one flank, they'll def EMP that flank instead,
as for responses to previous posts about the affordability of ghosts + a huge army, yes that's the...ideal situation, but a relatively small army with a ghost extends it's effectiveness by incredible amounts, and that's the point of the ghost i guess, and that's all fine and good. so if t decides to push or poke at this point, it'll be a very strong one. (again, solid build is solid build, nothing wrong with that)
as for pressuring and not letting ghost energy build up. bunkers are being used more and more nowadays, especially the 1rax expo, ideas on dealing with that in transition into multiple ghost army?
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On May 04 2010 18:26 dthree wrote:
People should be posting in a thread on HOW to deal with EMP rather than how imbalanced it is.
Yes, we've been over that.
Spread units out.
Get hT, obs, warp prism, micro them like crazy to try and catch the ghosts before they shoot.
They're obviously viable solutions, they just aren't a complete solution, and the second is unrealistic given the timing you get ghosts vs. the timing you get templar (espcially considering strait to templar tech w/o robo or stargate is the weakest possible play in PvT).
Not saying it's relavent yet due to void rays being an easy win over Terran on any map large enough that fast marauder can't get an equally cheesy win, but i forsee a problem when the match gets longer and we actually see more macro games played.
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Here is how you deal w/ EMP. Have an observer see where the ghosts are, and then rush your units in and out over and over again. Like you are trying to kite an enemy. Normally they will spend their emp and hit just a few people.
Only way I've found. Also, just get some high templars and storm the shit out of everything its awesome.
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EPT
