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A lot of people has suggested that Collosus is a counter against the MMM blog and EMPs, but they forget the fact that collosus takes time to build inorder to be effective.
Robo->Bay->Collosus->Thermal Lance? That's alot of teching, and if a toss chooses that route than they will be punished, economic and army wise. Terrans can easily float a building/scan and see ur bay and adapt to that, either by marching their ball to ur base or go vikings. Besides, teching to ghost is faster than an effective collosus.
People have suggested that proper spread with speedlots + sentry can counter a terran ball. In theory, that seems right but when you actually play, it doesn't work. The protoss army will eventually clump up when actually engaging the ball, and a few EMPs can melt the zealots, and render the sentries completely useless.
Choosing your tech as a protoss is also critical, because a protoss early game can either choose to go HTs or Collosus, choosing both tech early on will not work. What this means is that, you cant have both speedlots and Collosus early on to counter the ball. That is too much resources wasted to make it effective. (Core->Twilight council->Leg speed->Robo->Bay->Collosus->Thermal Lance is alot of investment and time).
That also means that if you go speedlots->HT than you become very vulnerable to early terran push because they can EMP your units and push in before your storm research even finishes.
I would like to suggest that EMP should be reduced to either draining shield or energy only.
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As a shitty silver player I use ghost marine with a splash of marader and medivac in my tvp and win about 65-75% of my games. Colossi usually thrash this build. Sure you can attack before collosi are up. But you need to take into effect you need stim combat shield an medivacs in order for this concept to really be effective. 1 or 2 colossi with lance can usually hold this off and the tosses Econ is generally better then the terrans. And get overrun. I love when I am using this build and see immortals because emp is that awsome. Well that's my $.02 from the silver leagues.
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It is always easy to make an incorrect claim that a unit or spell needs to be nerfed and to make it seem at first glance logical. The only thing you need to do to make a unit seem to need a nerf is to post a scenario where one side mismanages a set of units and gets them fucked up by an opponent.
For example, you could clearly say that you should nerf storm actually. Why? Well, marines cannot be moved out of a storm under any circumstance. If you storm marines they die, instantly, no matter how fast your reaction time is you cannot actually move them out of the storm before they die. I have had games where I lost to much worse players while going marine/ghost simply because I missed a few high templars and then just 3-4 storms instantly annihilate an entire army of 40+ supply.
Even if I could pull 500 apm those marines are still dead as soon as the storms land. You could with quite reasonable arguments claim that storm needs a nerf or that marines need a buff, but you would be wrong.
Because the reason that I lose in those cases was because I fucked up before those storms went off, I was attacking into a position without having full view over any approaching templars, I did not spread out my marines before the storms hit and I did not emp the templars before they stormed.
This applies to 99 out of 100 claims that some balance change absolute has to be made. The most effective solution is just to figure out how to not fuck up instead.
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Marines are already buffed with 45 HP and Combat Shield capability, so no, they don't die instantly to storms.
Better yet, you shouldn't even be going Marines versus HTs, but should be going Marauders who can easily survive 2 storms if you can micro worth a damn.
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Just comparing EMP vs. Storm doesn't work and is very narrow minded. You have to look at the whole matchup and how they both fit in.
That said, even when comparing them straight off I don't see any real imbalance.
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On July 19 2010 07:24 VanGarde wrote:
It is always easy to make an incorrect claim that a unit or spell needs to be nerfed and to make it seem at first glance logical. The only thing you need to do to make a unit seem to need a nerf is to post a scenario where one side mismanages a set of units and gets them fucked up by an opponent.
For example, you could clearly say that you should nerf storm actually. Why? Well, marines cannot be moved out of a storm under any circumstance. If you storm marines they die, instantly, no matter how fast your reaction time is you cannot actually move them out of the storm before they die. I have had games where I lost to much worse players while going marine/ghost simply because I missed a few high templars and then just 3-4 storms instantly annihilate an entire army of 40+ supply.
Even if I could pull 500 apm those marines are still dead as soon as the storms land. You could with quite reasonable arguments claim that storm needs a nerf or that marines need a buff, but you would be wrong.
Because the reason that I lose in those cases was because I fucked up before those storms went off, I was attacking into a position without having full view over any approaching templars, I did not spread out my marines before the storms hit and I did not emp the templars before they stormed.
This applies to 99 out of 100 claims that some balance change absolute has to be made. The most effective solution is just to figure out how to not fuck up instead.
BUT ITS SO MUCH EASIER TO JUST COMPLAIN YO - it really seems like the WoW mentality of imba this imba that your class/race is OP/easytoplay has manifested itself into SC2.
Also 2 storms over each other WILL almost instantly kill marines. I've been trying to practice my PvT lategame by purposefully going with expo-oriented openings (ghosts---> expo; gretorp style). Even having plentiful ghosts I still have trouble with templar/zealot armies late game with storms taking tons of hp off my armies. Yes, I attack retreat micro my troops. I don't think storm is imba at all, I probably just need to spread out more.
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so i thought i bring up this thread again:
[url blocked]
only marauder and emp = a-move win
so can anyone tell me what i should have done, i had the so called "counters" to marauders, how comes he still a-moves me to death. and u cant spread your forces against 3 ghosts, thats impossible.
i stopped building collosus when his vikings showed up, so i sticked with charge zeals and immortals, u see the result
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On August 06 2010 08:10 Lucius2 wrote:
so i thought i bring up this thread again:
[url blocked]
only marauder and emp = a-move win
so can anyone tell me what i should have done, i had the so called "counters" to marauders, how comes he still a-moves me to death. and u cant spread your forces against 3 ghosts, thats impossible.
i stopped building collosus when his vikings showed up, so i sticked with charge zeals and immortals, u see the result
seems like you could've done well with your 2 colossus had you counter attacked at around 14:00. But instead of chasing down the defeated enemy army you decided to stay home.
early void rays also seems to work against marauder heavy builds pretty well.
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Early void ray push with gateway units is the solution to all things PvT right now.
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I think it's only a matter of time before Blizz nerfs EMP. Consider the following:
EMP does a maximum of 100 damage. Storm does a maximum of 80 damage.
EMP has a radius of 2.0, Storm has a radius of 1.5. This means that 9 times out of 10 EMP will do more damage than storm because it hits far more units.
EMP is instant, cannot be dodged and cannot be moved out of.
EMP does not need to be upgraded.
EMP has a range of 10, Storm has a range of 9.
EMP also has the effect of removing all energy from any units in its area of effect.
EMP also has the effect of revealing cloaked units.
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
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On August 08 2010 12:59 McCain wrote:
I think it's only a matter of time before Blizz nerfs EMP. Consider the following:
EMP does a maximum of 100 damage. Storm does a maximum of 80 damage.
EMP has a radius of 2.0, Storm has a radius of 1.5. This means that 9 times out of 10 EMP will do more damage than storm because it hits far more units.
EMP is instant, cannot be dodged and cannot be moved out of.
EMP does not need to be upgraded.
EMP has a range of 10, Storm has a range of 9.
EMP also has the effect of removing all energy from any units in its area of effect.
EMP also has the effect of revealing cloaked units.
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
Storm =/= EMP
Storm hits life and shield's, EMP only hits shields. I don't know why you're making this specific comparison. That's like saying a sentries force field is over powered and comparing it to neural parasite.
If EMP did get the changes you've stated, I cannot even imagine what you would say about fungal growth..
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On August 08 2010 12:59 McCain wrote:
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
they need to do this quickly.
claiming that people are just qq'ing or that zerg/protoss need to l2p or use more tactics is absurd. many of us have been playing this game for months now, we know the matchups. sc2 is supposed to be a competitive game. to be competitive it needs to be balanced. when 2 players of equal skill go against each other the choice of race should NOT tip the scales towards one side or the other, but the game in its current form does exactly this.
all i can say to terran players that think zerg and to a lesser extent protoss are crybabies is try the other races for yourself. there IS a difference and it is not that subtle.
blizzard has certainly mined the data from all the games we have played. everything we post they already know. its up to them to make some changes.
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On August 08 2010 12:59 McCain wrote:
I think it's only a matter of time before Blizz nerfs EMP. Consider the following:
EMP does a maximum of 100 damage. Storm does a maximum of 80 damage.
EMP has a radius of 2.0, Storm has a radius of 1.5. This means that 9 times out of 10 EMP will do more damage than storm because it hits far more units.
EMP is instant, cannot be dodged and cannot be moved out of.
EMP does not need to be upgraded.
EMP has a range of 10, Storm has a range of 9.
EMP also has the effect of removing all energy from any units in its area of effect.
EMP also has the effect of revealing cloaked units.
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
EMP is also worthless against Zerg. You can't merely compare two things and say that's the end of it. Shall we compare a Zergling and a Zealot? A Marine and a Hyda? You're not balancing the game like that you're just making everything the same.
EMP is fine. It's strong and anything that is strong can handle a nerf, but that doesn't mean that it has to be nerfed. I'd rather they give Immortals a shield upgrade that let's them tank an EMP blast with shields in tact (maybe + 10-20) then nerf EMP.
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On August 08 2010 13:34 whateversclever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2010 12:59 McCain wrote:
I think it's only a matter of time before Blizz nerfs EMP. Consider the following:
EMP does a maximum of 100 damage. Storm does a maximum of 80 damage.
EMP has a radius of 2.0, Storm has a radius of 1.5. This means that 9 times out of 10 EMP will do more damage than storm because it hits far more units.
EMP is instant, cannot be dodged and cannot be moved out of.
EMP does not need to be upgraded.
EMP has a range of 10, Storm has a range of 9.
EMP also has the effect of removing all energy from any units in its area of effect.
EMP also has the effect of revealing cloaked units.
Eventually Blizzard will realize the discrepancy here and act accordingly. Eventually.
EMP is also worthless against Zerg. You can't merely compare two things and say that's the end of it. Shall we compare a Zergling and a Zealot? A Marine and a Hyda? You're not balancing the game like that you're just making everything the same. EMP is fine. It's strong and anything that is strong can handle a nerf, but that doesn't mean that it has to be nerfed. I'd rather they give Immortals a shield upgrade that let's them tank an EMP blast with shields in tact (maybe + 10-20) then nerf EMP.
EMP is fine.
To stop all the protoss crying, I say we give them an AOE ability that do:
100 dmg to all mechanical unit
radius of 3
range 10
75 energy
no research
tec building at 150/50
and drain all energy in that area
and reveal invisible units
and instant dmg ofcoures so that is not doggeable.
Holy shit, how can Terran even say emp is fine? If blizzard actually give protoss this ability, even the protoss would say its OP. Not even the fucking mothership have an ability as imba as the current emp.
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[QUOTE]On July 19 2010 08:26 Entropic wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 19 2010 07:24 VanGarde wrote:
Also 2 storms over each other WILL almost instantly kill marines. .[/QUOTE]
STORM DOESN'T STACK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Looks like someone called the whaaambulance, whaaa whaaaa whaaaaaaaa
don't rely on HT if you can't protect them
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few things, what does storm kill? marines. deals significant damage to marauders. lings. deals significant if not fatal damage to hydras. drones, marines, probes.
what does emp kill? ...
thank you.
also, thank you for the guy who brought this thread back just so he could complain about how he lost.
people complain too much. I think protoss players complain the most, about the most ridiculous things. like the protoss player who offraced as zerg and complained about terran being able to mass up tier 1 and 1a after I pulled his entire army out of position with 1 banshee in his main, so I could set up my siege tanks, and then he ran his army into sieged tanks and lost. or the guy who called me homosexual and jewish after I did a timing push, when he had no defense.
and 2 months isn't really enough time to flesh a game out enough. there were periods of time in BW where win percentages of certain races were like 15% and things didn't get patched, people worked out new strategies.
Blizzard has data, and will change things if they deem necessary, but you whining that you can't win isn't going to change anything and makes you sound like a pansy who can't stand losing at a computer game.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 08 2010 19:07 FoUsTy wrote:
STORM DOESN'T STACK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Strictly speaking, 1 storm is enough to kill marines. The only reason they don't die is if they move out--in which case the fact that they don't stack is irrelevant, because you storm where they moved to.
Quoting something from another thread that is relevant here:
On August 08 2010 03:25 Tor wrote:
Ghost vs Hight Templar is really just a vision war and Protoss have observers. Your feedback could have range 11, it wouldn't mean you'd actually hit the ghost. If the ghost prematurely emps then you just run back and regen shields. If you engaged in a head to head battle with stalkers/ht vs mnm/ghosts where they emp and hit all shields and your ht then you screwed up. You're complaining because you just don't understand how the ht/ghost dynamic works. The units counter eachother. And both can be very unforgiving. It might be easier to use ghosts to beat ht but that doesn't mean they aren't balanced. Proper play can make ghosts just as ineffective. In any event the units themselves aren't mirrored. You can't compare a ht with a ghost in a vacuum. Each units is incredibly different and has different roles. You can't warp ghosts in at any pylon with enough energy to storm. You can't actually kill protoss units with emp. Emp doesn't have a cumulative benefit.
In short: both units have longer range than sight. so whoever has the sight advantage wins.
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Yay, let's compare units directly. It doesn't work though.
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EPT
