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On July 15 2010 09:06 Ploppytheman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 08:52 kawazu wrote:On July 15 2010 08:20 Demarini wrote:On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote:
Bunch of whiners,
brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc. Well for someone like me who is new to RTS games and Starcraft in general, this is a real turnoff to the game. I don't want to try and play PvT just to lose to MMM again and again. I try to go HT to feedback the Medivacs, drop some storms on the MMM ball, but that get's scouted by a scan or they're just smart enough to make ghosts in general, and the ghosts just drop their use(along with my blink/charge, whatever I upgrade on my way to Templar Archives). Ok, well I'll fallback, wait for shields to come back, energy, etc. Well he has concussive shells. Even if half my units are able to get out, it's still gg. Lets look at the Terran players options. So no MMM... Bio wise that leaves a ghost and reaper army. Wonderful. Totally viable. Ok Terran player goes mech, which would be the other early game option. You go stargate or robobay. You win! Factory can't deal with void rays if you are at anywhere close to the level of macro as them. Factory also gets destroyed by immortals. Before critical mass, factory units will lose to a purely zealot army that you attack moved. Or a pure stalker army. Terran has to have a strong bio force because the factory is such a non-factor against Protoss. Terran has to go MM or you will lose. You don't have the option to do anything else. Most Terran builds use MM to transition to something else. In other match-ups, you have the option to use factory units. In TvP, you don't. HE IS TALKING ABOUT EMP THIS THREAD IS ABOUT EMP EMP IS THREAD THIS ABOUT TALK EMP
And surely you think EMP is overpowered because of the other aspects of the Terran arsenal... I play T so my view might not be much of a shock, however I really don't see EMP as OP.
Reading it on paper, I'm sure I'd go like "wtf is wrong with the devs!?!?" but in practise it feels like P is just way to strong vs T if the T doesn't have EMP. The TvP MU I just feel has somewhat of a balance state where T goes bio with early ghosts, P takes the map, ghosts get on the field, P tries holding until coll, T gets vikings, P is going toward HTs, T might try getting a few tanks and micro + good timings wins the battles.
Ofcourse this isn't what exactly happens(and this is just totally ignoring timing pushes), but just in general I feel the power switches hands a few times through the matches like that, where one guy gets x tech and the other has to hold until y unit enters the fray, then the aggressor has to hold until z unit comes out.
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On July 15 2010 04:54 Ploppytheman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 04:49 scojac wrote:
solution: just make immortals immune to EMP. say it's part of their "hardened shield" bonus.
that way, if you scout a ghost academy, you can throw up a robo and be able to counter a T bioball that will be smaller because it has a ghost or 2 in it.
vs. if terran decides not to produce ghosts and just mass a bunch of bioball, you will have a harder time defending if you don't get the immo's out in time.
adds some strategy & doesn't change the mu too much, imho. added bonus: makes immo's viable against tanks. that won't work b/c even with hardened shields PURE mauraders with stim will rape them. Since he has rines/ghosts/stim hardened shields don't mean anything, although I think emp should do 10dmg to shields of immortals.
I'm not suggesting you go pure immortal. but getting a couple of immortals that only took 10 damage from EMP or something (basically, hardened shield is used against this spell) with zealot/stalker/sentry (maybe a 2gate/robo build) against a bio/ghost build would mean that even if your forces were emp'd, at least your immortals could soak up a bunch of damage and maybe even have your forces live longer.
imho, it's worth trying out, even if just to stop all this whining over EMP.
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On July 15 2010 09:49 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 09:06 Ploppytheman wrote:On July 15 2010 08:52 kawazu wrote:On July 15 2010 08:20 Demarini wrote:On July 15 2010 07:13 4Servy wrote:
Bunch of whiners,
brood war all races were not equal to play, terran needed more apm and mechanics and practise than zerg and protoss at lower level. However at higher level it balanced out cause then terran had their mechanics down to compete with toss/zerg etc etc. Well for someone like me who is new to RTS games and Starcraft in general, this is a real turnoff to the game. I don't want to try and play PvT just to lose to MMM again and again. I try to go HT to feedback the Medivacs, drop some storms on the MMM ball, but that get's scouted by a scan or they're just smart enough to make ghosts in general, and the ghosts just drop their use(along with my blink/charge, whatever I upgrade on my way to Templar Archives). Ok, well I'll fallback, wait for shields to come back, energy, etc. Well he has concussive shells. Even if half my units are able to get out, it's still gg. Lets look at the Terran players options. So no MMM... Bio wise that leaves a ghost and reaper army. Wonderful. Totally viable. Ok Terran player goes mech, which would be the other early game option. You go stargate or robobay. You win! Factory can't deal with void rays if you are at anywhere close to the level of macro as them. Factory also gets destroyed by immortals. Before critical mass, factory units will lose to a purely zealot army that you attack moved. Or a pure stalker army. Terran has to have a strong bio force because the factory is such a non-factor against Protoss. Terran has to go MM or you will lose. You don't have the option to do anything else. Most Terran builds use MM to transition to something else. In other match-ups, you have the option to use factory units. In TvP, you don't. HE IS TALKING ABOUT EMP THIS THREAD IS ABOUT EMP EMP IS THREAD THIS ABOUT TALK EMP And surely you think EMP is overpowered because of the other aspects of the Terran arsenal... I play T so my view might not be much of a shock, however I really don't see EMP as OP. Reading it on paper, I'm sure I'd go like "wtf is wrong with the devs!?!?" but in practise it feels like P is just way to strong vs T if the T doesn't have EMP. The TvP MU I just feel has somewhat of a balance state where T goes bio with early ghosts, P takes the map, ghosts get on the field, P tries holding until coll, T gets vikings, P is going toward HTs, T might try getting a few tanks and micro + good timings wins the battles. Ofcourse this isn't what exactly happens(and this is just totally ignoring timing pushes), but just in general I feel the power switches hands a few times through the matches like that, where one guy gets x tech and the other has to hold until y unit enters the fray, then the aggressor has to hold until z unit comes out.
That's true, the mu does work that way, vaguely. Coming from a P, it's probably no surprise that I think this, but that doesn't change that the cost effeciency of emp seems insane next to the support protoss can field, excepting maybe a good number of coll.
I think that emp is worth more than what a T pays. You said yourself P is really strong without it, I think all the raging P's out there really want is for the cost effeciency of a Templar to be roughly on par with that of a ghost, to say nothing of timing.
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Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
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Did people forget that HTs have feedback and ghosts have snipe (lolz)?
Feedback counters medivacs, thors, shees, ghosts, and BCs. Yet, I don't see people crying to mommy about it. No research required, range 9, low mana cost of 50, completely drains target of mana even if it doesn't outright die.
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On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
Nobody uses HT vs toss.
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On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
You can't just say "storm is good in 2 MU and EMP is OP in one so it's fair". In fact storm and templar are almost never used in PvP. But even thats not the point, if EMP isn't useful, or ghosts aren't useful then you don't have to build them. EMP is not situational in PvT, its always a good idea to get emp and can be added to almost any army to make it much more effective.
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On July 16 2010 05:11 link0 wrote:
Did people forget that HTs have feedback and ghosts have snipe (lolz)?
Feedback counters medivacs, thors, shees, ghosts, and BCs. Yet, I don't see people crying to mommy about it. No research required, range 9, low mana cost of 50, completely drains target of mana even if it doesn't outright die.
Feedback doesn't "counter" any of those things. Feedback can do a decent amount of dmg to them and take their energy. Imagine if feedback was AoE and did 100 dmg to everything. Thats what EMP is except on a slow unit with no attack or cloak.
If I want to feedback I most likely can't storm. And Feedback dmg can vary wildly depending on the energy level from being useless to doing a full 140 dmg to banshees or 200dmg on BC/Thor. In fact Feedback is often limited by the units health to the dmg it can do, so if I feedback a banshee its up to 140dmg while a BC or thor can take "up to 200dmg". If you were so concerned about feedback you could emp your energy units before battle or on banshee spam cloak, or just /lol e click EMP onto the toss army and he will be lucky to get 1 feedback off.
Storm generally will always do 200dmg if not more, probably 300+ on a bio ball.
Snipe is a joke when emp is more beneficial in almost all cases.
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On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
The fact that a spell has uses in other matchups does not justify its weakness in a matchup where it is desperately needed.
EMP's uselessness in TvT and TvZ are pretty much irrelevant since T has Factories and Starports. They don't need them, ever.
This doesn't have to be a Templar vs Ghosts discussion- it'll just result in flaming and stalemate (see thread for proof)... This is about EMP. EMP is too strong.
Terran lategame blobs are too strong without a large number of Colossi present. Their midgame timing push when the first few Ghosts pop is also too powerful, which makes it even harder to get Colossi out. Give EMP a way shittier AoE, make it researched, reduce its range, increase its energy cost, or do some combination of the above.
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On July 16 2010 09:03 brain_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations The fact that a spell has uses in other matchups does not justify its weakness in a matchup where it is desperately needed. EMP's uselessness in TvT and TvZ are pretty much irrelevant since T has Factories and Starports. They don't need them, ever. This doesn't have to be a Templar vs Ghosts discussion- it'll just result in flaming and stalemate (see thread for proof)... This is about EMP. EMP is too strong. Terran lategame blobs are too strong without a large number of Colossi present. Their midgame timing push when the first few Ghosts pop is also too powerful, which makes it even harder to get Colossi out. Give EMP a way shittier AoE, make it researched, reduce its range, increase its energy cost, or do some combination of the above.
Instead of just nerfing the shit out of the spell to the point where it's basically useless, it makes more sense to me to just have the immortal's hardened shield take only 10 damage from it. That way, it remains a useful spell, but at least toss can do something to help out against those early T timing pushes
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On July 18 2010 05:11 scojac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 09:03 brain_ wrote:On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations The fact that a spell has uses in other matchups does not justify its weakness in a matchup where it is desperately needed. EMP's uselessness in TvT and TvZ are pretty much irrelevant since T has Factories and Starports. They don't need them, ever. This doesn't have to be a Templar vs Ghosts discussion- it'll just result in flaming and stalemate (see thread for proof)... This is about EMP. EMP is too strong. Terran lategame blobs are too strong without a large number of Colossi present. Their midgame timing push when the first few Ghosts pop is also too powerful, which makes it even harder to get Colossi out. Give EMP a way shittier AoE, make it researched, reduce its range, increase its energy cost, or do some combination of the above. Instead of just nerfing the shit out of the spell to the point where it's basically useless, it makes more sense to me to just have the immortal's hardened shield take only 10 damage from it. That way, it remains a useful spell, but at least toss can do something to help out against those early T timing pushes
More incentive to spam immortals and less incentive to use Mech (already VERY unpopular)? Horrible suggestion.
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Smaller number of sentries, higher number of stalkers (blink-snipe ghosts!), split up sentries, play defensive as you go through the timing window of weakness between ghost coming out and you getting colossus or templar counter.
I agree that P should have another counter earlier (immortal shield blocking it, or a research time on EMP, or some way for sentries to reduce effectiveness) but I don't see it as a "must change" issue. Adds a certain tenseness to that late-early game conflict, especially as P has an advantage quickly once Col comes out...
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On July 18 2010 05:11 scojac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2010 09:03 brain_ wrote:On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations The fact that a spell has uses in other matchups does not justify its weakness in a matchup where it is desperately needed. EMP's uselessness in TvT and TvZ are pretty much irrelevant since T has Factories and Starports. They don't need them, ever. This doesn't have to be a Templar vs Ghosts discussion- it'll just result in flaming and stalemate (see thread for proof)... This is about EMP. EMP is too strong. Terran lategame blobs are too strong without a large number of Colossi present. Their midgame timing push when the first few Ghosts pop is also too powerful, which makes it even harder to get Colossi out. Give EMP a way shittier AoE, make it researched, reduce its range, increase its energy cost, or do some combination of the above. Instead of just nerfing the shit out of the spell to the point where it's basically useless, it makes more sense to me to just have the immortal's hardened shield take only 10 damage from it. That way, it remains a useful spell, but at least toss can do something to help out against those early T timing pushes
I know I suggested it but that won't cut if b/c who builds immortals vs marines rofl. EMP is just way too powerful for how its implemented and its needs changed. EMP range, radius, dmg would be fine, say if it was a missle, did dmg over time, etc. But atm its just stupid and imba. I am actually practicing T b/c of how imba it is vs protoss, but we'll see how blizz handles this.
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On July 18 2010 15:10 l90 Proof wrote:
Smaller number of sentries, higher number of stalkers (blink-snipe ghosts!), split up sentries, play defensive as you go through the timing window of weakness between ghost coming out and you getting colossus or templar counter.
I agree that P should have another counter earlier (immortal shield blocking it, or a research time on EMP, or some way for sentries to reduce effectiveness) but I don't see it as a "must change" issue. Adds a certain tenseness to that late-early game conflict, especially as P has an advantage quickly once Col comes out...
Wait... you do realize feedback has 9 range and emp rapes it right? Suggesting stalkers who have 6 range is just stupid. This is a MUST change issue b/c of how little skill it takes to emp and there is no tacitical use of emp, its always a good idea to emp, get emp, or add ghosts and its easy to use, easy to get, and easy to tech to.
Vikings have 9 range and have had their speed upgraded, and I can't think of a terran build which doesn't have a starport. If you can't get a few vikings and scan their base or scout otherwise to prepare for collosi (which take forever to get) then its your play that needs work. Tanks also do well against collosi and ravens can help negate stalkers with PDD. I can tell you I never want to engage a Terran with tanks directly esp one with vikings.
The issue is emp is never a real choice, its always good, its easy to get and implement to any army. The other half of the issue is emp is ez to use, cheap, low tier, extremely effective, and the skill differential from defending (its impossible) to using it (literally e-click /lol ) is not fair. Otherwise revert void ray changes since it was "too hard to defend". Keeping double standards on play will make sc2 suffer as an esport.
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but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
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On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
Wait what?
Ghosts can (at least) halve the effectiveness of Stalkers, Sentries, High Templar, Observers, Dark Templar, Immortals, Phoenixes, and Motherships. That leaves only Zealots, Colossi and possibly Void Rays as units that the Ghost doesn't totally smash with EMP. Not to mention snipe is pretty decent against low-HP Void Rays and their basic attack does 20 to zealots.
HT straight up get owned by Ghost EMP (it outranges everything they have), they take almost two full storms to kill Marauders (who can run out of the radius pretty fast on stim), and as far as AOE goes it's not really super effective agaisnt anything but bio. Feedback's pretty sick against Thors, Battlecruisers and Banshees, but it's not as if the HT is actually a proper counter to mech-based Terran play, or even just Marauder-heavy infantry.
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On July 18 2010 16:18 MorroW wrote:
but lets look it this way. u build a high templar and u counter every single unit in the game except ultralisk and hellion. make a ghost and thats good vs 3-6 units and drain alot of minerals :p
what makes the ht 10 times better is that u can just warp it in and storm and own everything, or u can just build alot of zealot+ht cause of the mineral gas rate and this combo itself is also like the hard counter to all t1 t1.5 units
i think both the ghost and the ht could be more interesting but from a balance point of view i would nerf feedback and nerf ghost hp but this nobody cares about^^ u cant just say X spell got X more of X thats why X is better than X, game doesnt work that way. u get storm and its so god damn awesome cause u always vs big bio forces and big zerg forces, just splash all over the place. in an emp its often hard to hit and u only wanna hit a unit 1 time while with storm u can just go to town with it and storm over and over and they die eventually
If terran gets a few marauders it counters every gateway unit and even immortals and colossi. I need to get different units and micro to stand a chance and when you get stim I have to get additional upgrades just to keep up. Once I get templar or colossi I have the edge over bio. But its taken me a long time just to be able to deal well with your tier 1.5 units.
Templar are near useless in PvP to the point where I never see them built, and I'm top 10 diamond. In PvZ they are excellent vs ling/hydra and bad zerg muta but they don't do much verse roaches, ultras, or brolords. Terran can use tanks (with good position) and 100 HT can't get close. The point is you can alter your build and get units out quickly that are effective vs Templar. As a Toss their is no unit comp or upgrade to deal with ghosts. Protoss air dies to rines (excluding Carriers which are terrible and hard to get), all protoss ground except colossi (and you need several) are severely crippled to the point where you effectively lose 1/2 of your hp and all the utilty from sentries/temps. You can't dodge emp and in mid-late game spreading does nothing b/c you can cover the entire army easily with 2-3 ghosts.
If you complain about storm, guess what you can dodge it, pull back so protoss units share the dmg, spread, etc and thats w/o emp. Not to mention tanks have 13 range and you can manually target templar if you want.
I'm not saying gut it but its needs changed.
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On July 16 2010 04:52 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
Im sure this has been said before, but think about how useful EMP is vs terran or vs zerg basically worthless, thats why we only see ghosts in PvT.
Now think about storm vs zerg (mmmm yummy) or vs other toss. HT are viable against more strats then ghosts. Is it any wonder that EMP, a more situational spell, is better at its narrow role then Storm which is useful in a much larger number of situations
yea too bad if i have the choice between colossi and ht, it's not even a little close. people are forgetting....not everyone has super crazy micro skills. i'm not that good, so i have trouble getting around this. i have trouble having to micro shields, storm, feedback, and all my other units. i'm new, and i'm not good enough yet. i can only fall back so many times after being emp'd you know? eventually they'll catch up, i'll be at half health, and i'll get stomped. and emp you just have to click by the bulk of the army. for feedback, you have to play where's waldo, and storm takes half a second to react and get out of. emp is a guarantee. there's no argument here. what scares me the most is that i have trouble with terran at my low level...and a lot of them don't always use emp.
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Is there any possibility of using a DT to snipe the Ghost before engaging, assuming you're already going HT (I realise you still need the Shrine, but it's not QUITE as bad)? If there are multiple Ghosts in the one ball it probably wouldn't do much good, but a single DT is cheaper than a single Ghost and it can 2-shot it if you're ahead on upgrades. I suppose it'd be less effective in the higher divisions where the T is more likely to scout it or use scan better.
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EPT
