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Sweden33719 Posts
An immobile army nowadays is a fail army. If zerg sees Terran going mech, I can only imagine Z winning by taking a quick 3rd or even 4th base and simply outmacroing. The most powerful element of mech - the thor - cannot travel across the map (as I write this I'm considering putting thors in medivacs like reavers in BW PvP... If T wises up to this, disregard everything I'm about to say ) and if Terran does move out, surrounding the ball is quite possible. The main strategy with mech is: find zerg army, kill zerg army, kill zerg base. If terran can't easily engage the zerg army, it can't kill your base, and if it can't kill your base(s), it can't stop your macro. Therefore, creep tumor the shit out of the map and stay as mobile as possible.
Yes, you should always have medivacs with your army to save thors, and to do thor drops anyway.
Anyhow, it sounds weird but mass mass mass mass baneling rapes it pretty hard I think (like, 50+ banelings).
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/FrozenArbiter/Replays/TvZ_satsuinohado_banel.sc2replay
I'm not sure how much having more hellions would help, tho I'm sure siege tanks or ravens would. If you make too many hellions pure roach kinda rapes you anyway.
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If the the person has massive marauder and thor/hellion you will want to get roaches/hydra mix and some broodlords. Broodlords will rape the marauders once the thors are down.
Generally you will also want to have more macroed so that u can pump waves of hydra/roach to keep the terran from producing too many units.
There is a replay commentary by HDstarcraft that i have watched today which should help you ( sheth vs Qxc)
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i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick
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Ig he goes for such an army composition it means he is going to be low on gas to get scouts and thus allowing you to research burrow and surprise his army.
Even few burrowed infestors can wreak havok on the terran lines, since terran don't have scouts.
So yeah, the best thing would be to research burrow really early and ambush his army.
The roaches will take the thors damage, while you take control of few thors with the infestors and the zerglings can make short work of the marauders.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 18 2010 20:54 lolreaper wrote:
i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick
Mutas sound stupid vs thors, they die so hard vs them...
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On April 18 2010 20:31 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +An immobile army nowadays is a fail army. If zerg sees Terran going mech, I can only imagine Z winning by taking a quick 3rd or even 4th base and simply outmacroing. The most powerful element of mech - the thor - cannot travel across the map (as I write this I'm considering putting thors in medivacs like reavers in BW PvP... If T wises up to this, disregard everything I'm about to say ) and if Terran does move out, surrounding the ball is quite possible. The main strategy with mech is: find zerg army, kill zerg army, kill zerg base. If terran can't easily engage the zerg army, it can't kill your base, and if it can't kill your base(s), it can't stop your macro. Therefore, creep tumor the shit out of the map and stay as mobile as possible.
Yes, you should always have medivacs with your army to save thors, and to do thor drops anyway. Anyhow, it sounds weird but mass mass mass mass baneling rapes it pretty hard I think (like, 50+ banelings). http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/FrozenArbiter/Replays/TvZ_satsuinohado_banel.sc2replayI'm not sure how much having more hellions would help, tho I'm sure siege tanks or ravens would. If you make too many hellions pure roach kinda rapes you anyway.
I'm curious, how are banelings cost effective against mech? Wouldn't investing all that resources into roach be a better use of money? (1 baneling is almost the cost of a roach, except 25 less minerals). So 50 banelings could get you somewhere around 40 roaches - which is a pretty large army against anything terran has.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gone from 200 to 77 food in 5 seconds if he had roaches ;p
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On April 19 2010 01:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 20:54 lolreaper wrote:
i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick Mutas sound stupid vs thors, they die so hard vs them...
not mass mutas just make few of them, they are stil awsome for map control and stop all kind of drops or viking harasses, also force terran to waste minerals on turrets and delay his push
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On April 19 2010 01:45 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gone from 200 to 77 food in 5 seconds if he had roaches ;p
Hmm the first time he had 72 banelings.. and they brought your supply down from 200 to 144(something ilke that), then his roaches cleaned up.
The second time your supply dropped from maxed to 70 something, but he had a good number of hydra/roach in there as well.
I wonder what would've happened if you had more hellions rather than marauders though. With 15-20 hellions his banelings wouldn't have even made it to your army, so even if the 15-20 hellions become useless against his roaches, that's still better than 20-30 marauders becoming useless against his banelings.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 19 2010 02:02 lolreaper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 01:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 18 2010 20:54 lolreaper wrote:
i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick Mutas sound stupid vs thors, they die so hard vs them... not mass mutas just make few of them, they are stil awsome for map control and stop all kind of drops or viking harasses, also force terran to waste minerals on turrets and delay his push
Yeah that's good.
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On April 19 2010 01:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 20:54 lolreaper wrote:
i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick Mutas sound stupid vs thors, they die so hard vs them...
Yeah, mutas are definately not the best alternative. In a match I played today I started out with a ling/hydra composition, when I saw he went mech with lots of hellions and tanks I just went mass muta. This owned him at first but when he got his thors out I was screwed.
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It's a lot like mech in TvZ bw. You just need to mass expand and build a shit ton of units with a decently mix of lings,hydras, roaches. (maybe bling drops on the hellions)
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Banelings/roaches can really abuse supply cap.
Roach = 75/25 Marauder = 100/25 Sounds fair marauders beat roaches cost for cost.
Supply = 1........Supply = 2
Pretty sure 2 roaches will beat 1 marauder. (maybe stimmed marauder might win I dunno), certainly roaches beats most other things cost for cost and supply for supply
2 Banelings = 100/50, same as hydra but only 1 supply.
So if you turtle on 200/200 if he masses roach hydra and you have unspent money it's not going to be easy. Banelings also draw a lot of wasted fire since they explode on death thors/marauders are wasting fire on units that are exploding anyway.
I guess siege tanks//ravens are the only real counter to that. Splash damage rapes big armies hard and you need to counter with splash of your own I guess.
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What slayer said ^. I've watched some reps of recent tournaments of zergs going hydra/roach/infestor and they seem to rape terrans going mmm thor still. Zerg is so much easier to macro and they usually are able to get more bases/resources imo. I personally am leaning towards going just roach/hydra although I should throw in some infestors. Roach/Hydra seems so easy, upgrades for attack benefit them both, and the roaches soaking up the damage with the hydras doing so much dps works out well. The mass baneling thing sounds sexy though.
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tanks and ravens are good vs zerg's mass...
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I would make my main force roaches with hydra support. Hydras alone are going to get torn up by the thors who 1-shot them, and the hellions, who roast them 10 at a time. Hydra support is for the marauders who otherwise would force you to bring too many roaches than is necessary.
Invariably you're going to have medivacs to heal the marauders and evacuate the thors when they start getting low. I really think the key to beating them is having some corruptors. The corruptors have a reasonable range (unlike mutalisks) which keeps them a bit further away from the action, and protects them. They also have the advantage of not getting their AI messed up and attacking ground units, they're only going to be on the medivacs all the time. And they're also armored, so they're not taking the bonus damage from thor, plus they have 2 armor, which makes a huge difference for thors, because it absorbs 8 damage per volley. Also, if the Thors are attacking the corruptors, they're not massacring your hydralisks. The corruptors aren't going to have trouble taking the medivacs out like hydras would, and if they try and escape, they can chase them down.
That said, I think the 50+ baneling thing would be awesome just for the hilarity factor.
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So the corrupters kill the medivacs while the rest of your army dies? It's not worth the extra res just to take out the medivacs. Just build lots of roach/hydra. They only have a range of 6 and thor has a range of 9 and they can't hit thors.
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Medivacs stop you from killing the thors by lifting them out when they get low. They also heal about as much damage per second as one hydralisk can do. Corruptors kill the medivacs for less cost than the medivacs cost to produce, since you don't need as many corruptors as he has medivacs, and if they draw fire from the thors they are taking 24 damage every 3 seconds, instead of your hydras taking 90 damage every 1.9 seconds.
Trying to beat MMM straight up without a way to deal with the medivacs is a great way to throw money and units away. Trying to do that with thors in the mix is super stupid.
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Thors will auto target air units first if no melee units are in range so if you bring overlords with your army they will soak up a lot of dmg and the thors will stop unless manually microed up to the front. I do this vs noobs and it works real well, doesn't do anything if they micro properly though. You should have OL's up shitting creep anyways so might as well bring a couple with ur army... thor takes a year and a half to kill an OL btw.
I just played vs an 1800ish T about an hour ago and I opened with speedling/baneling and he rax/fact walled up so I didn't waste my baneling and just contained him... sacrificed an overlord to make sure he wasn't going something gay like 2 port banshees. I made a spire and muta sniped his expo workers. He had a lot of hellion so i backed off and took a third and whe he moved out he had 2 thors a few hellions and several marauder and i did a lot of damage with the pure lings and sniped his expo again w/ the muta. Switched to massive amounts of speed roach/ling 1 infestor for root and ended the game using 1 corruptor to dweb his PF.
I don't think any specific 'unit' is going to win vs hellion/thor/marauder... it's a really nasty combo if you let them get ahead on econ mainly because mass muta is a risk if they bring scv to repair the thors and ling are the closest thing to a hard counter to marauder/thor and in mass hellions gain a huge advantage. You just need to make sure you control the game. Even though hellions (with micro) shit on ling, you can beat hellion w/ ling and not take damage if your econ is stronger which it should be.
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EPT
