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so, i've been coming up against this since the patch that gave thor's the splash vs muta. Tonight though, with the now much faster building thor's, it's been worse.
It seems very effective against zerg. Both marauders and thor's crush roaches pretty bad (well, mostly marauders), and upgraded hellions pretty much own any number of zerglings. The new thors shut muta down really really hard (like even worse than immortal shut roach down hard).
So pre-tonight's patch I've been trying to fight it with good ol' roach hydra with infestor support. Short of brood lords, I can't find any other units that are even worth making vs this army composition. However, with tonight's patch even that is having a rough time now (although it still holds up better than other strats i've tried against it).
I usually mix a few infestors in to grab thors, and this works for a few seconds usually before he just snipes em real fast with the long range marauders. Most of the time they don't even bother with tanks. Perhaps it is a gas issue, but i imagine if they managed to fit tanks in this would get even worse.
Anyone played against this yet and found a good solution for it? It seems to counter everything zerg pretty well, forcing us to just mass roach hydra.
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Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
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On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
Banelings eh? Are you suggesting to use them to try and counter the hellions, or to just drop them in the middle of everything in general?
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bannelings do alot of damage when they hit but are so easy to kill.
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i'm surprised these threads are just popping up with this patch that emphasizes thors, as they were sexy/amazing last patches too.
if they are doing a timing push, you want to get 2-4 infestors to MC the thors and stop the first push. If you successfully MC the thors in that timing push and break it, then you are way ahead.
you will also want to nydus/overlord drop and any harrass you can as usual. If you went mutas, do not just see 1 thor and run away, poke for vulnerablity, see if there are enough turrets, and break any weak spot that you can. It will delay the thor/hellion timing for you to get more infestors/roaches/hydra.
most games i've played mass zerglings and panic zerglings have sucked when I did thor/hellion, so do not fall into that trap, roach/banelings or hydra/baneling will always be better than all zerglings, but you want to build up as many roaches as you can vs this because the key part for T when they do thor/hellion mech is to let the thors absorb as much damage as possible while the hellions kill hydras/zlings that try to kill the thors.
and if they do a much later attack into late-game expos, simply macro up roach/hydra/infestor and you should be good to go.
if T goes for dropship harrass/hellion harrass, defend with roaches and make sure you do not maynard drones by clicking on a mineral, as it will line them all up for hellions to kill em much more easily.
roach/hydra/infestor nydus/drops seems like your best bet right now imo. Oh, and broodlords 
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Infestors => neutral paralyse Thors => GG
Oh damn, i forgot Blizzard nerfed that ability and now it is useless
Mass muta should be able to kill it!
Oh Wait! Blizzard buffed everything that might shoot at them, i guess we need sg else
The good old Roach and Hydra based ground army supported with lings can stand up to the chalenge
Wait, what you're saying? Patch 8? What? Roaches got nerfed, and Hydras nerfed even more? What? What retard had this stupid idea? I guess switch race, that's what i'm thinking about
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On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
Totally agree. As soon as you see the thors, keep what mutas you have if it's that late, or transition directly to hydras, lay down a roach warren, then when you get enough gasses going add on the infestors. Take the map, thors can't really get around and as long as you keep an eye on them, steady changelings coming in here and there, seeing where T moves, you add just a touch of pressure to keep him in his base.
From here on out keep up unit production with him while taking expos. Granted it's easier said than done, but one can get the hang of it fairly quickly and it's very strong
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On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
This is the most generic and useless advice you can give..
"Hey use every unit, and just outmacro him"
I don't see how the 12 or so banelings can affect the outcome(if they even hit.. thors kill overlords pretty fast)
The only real way to counter this push is to harass him and chip off his army bit by bit with a roach heavy army, and threaten a counter whenever he tries to move out.
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On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
hm let's see, thor has 400 health, banelings do 20 damage to thors...that's 20 banelings just to kill 1 thor. And thors are so big you won't be doing any baneling splash if you target thors.
That's 1000/500 resources worth of banelings to kill a 300/200 cost thor....total fail.
Similar story against marauders...it takes 7 banelings to kill 1 marauder.
That's 350/175 resources worth of banelings to kill a 100/25 cost marauder...total fail again.
They're only cost-effective vs. hellion. You are seriously going to try and drop banelings in the middle of a thor/marauder/hellion blob and try to snipe the hellions (one of the fastest units in the game btw)? No.
Banelings should not be used against a hellion/marauder/thor army, or really any mech army.
Stick with roaches, you will force terran to get marauders, which will be an expensive transition if he opened with mech.
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Just make infinite roach. I've tried mara, thor, hellion and you don't have the production to build enough marauders to counter mass roach. Add in some speedlings if he starts laying off the hellions and you win.
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[QUOTE]On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Just outmacro him[QUOTE]
This- zerg's macro mechanics are way stronger than the other races, especially terran. Remember that you are losing if your on the same # of bases as the terran, and try to outproduce him severly so that for every 2 units he kills and 1 unit you kill still puts you ahead. This isn't easy but zergs beat me all the time in just that manner, and you can beat terrans just like that, too!
The OPs right in saying that that particular army composition is really strong versus zerg since the most recent patch, and muta's are really not that viable vs terran anymore. Thus, (if my original suggestion is impossible due to good play with reaper harass / banshee harass while still building the thor/hellion/marauder/medivac army), i propose trying to suck the terrans into bad tactical situations. Its pretty easy to sucker hellions out infront of his army with a little bait, and if you can kill them early the rest of his army is extreamly vulnerable to large #s of speedlings/cracklings.
Good luck!
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Since the patch befor last I was opening w/ hellion into marauder with a single thor. The one thor would almost always keep them from going spire because of the splash allowing me to cut back on turrets and be really agressive. If they made a spire i kept making thor, but typically i stopped after 1 and just repaired it on the push. Since the roach nerf I've only played 4 TvZ's but I'm finding that I can do a lot more options and include marines in my build with fast 1-0.
When I ZvT I usually open speedling and get a spine at my nat. Even though ling die quickly to hellion, I think they are a decent option with micro especially if you push your creep out. Follow that up with roaches while getting lair and infestor.
you want to get 2-4 infestors to MC the thors
Im not sure it's possible to get 2-4 infestors by the time T gets a thor out without sacrificing your army and making yourself very vulnerable.
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i watched a couple streams of gretorp yesterday where he goes fast thor drop tries to snipe the queen (2 shots kill queen) plays it kind of like reaver/tank harass
basically harasses the zerg and then out expands him. A thor would get a few kills each drop retreat and get repaired. i don't think he lost any units and killed like 5 hydra 2 extractors and a queen (from a cliff)
Finish up with mass thor/hellion/marauder.
didnt look like the zerg could really do much..
queen dies to 2 shots
hydras get 1 hit KO'd
roaches 2 shot but if you have a medivac u can basically fly around all day
i would probably get spore crawlers and mass ling rush him early game if he rushes a thor.
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On April 09 2010 01:24 BlasiuS wrote:
Stick with roaches, you will force terran to get marauders, which will be an expensive transition if he opened with mech.
did you even read the post? This army usually consists of mostly marauders with 2+ thors (depending how late the game is, but they usually end up with like 5 or 6 by late game), and then hellions with the igniter upgrade to wtfpwn lings.
this build isn't a mech build so much as it is a mass marauder build using thors and hellions to counter the only things that can beat the marauders.
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Mass hydra and tank the hellions with a couple of roaches.
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On April 09 2010 06:37 LagT_T wrote:
Mass hydra and tank the hellions with a couple of roaches.
You will get raped to death if you still going for mass hydra roach this patch..
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Calgary25990 Posts
This thread seems to me kind of like asking "How do I beat Templar/Colossus/Sentry?". Like there's not going to be one unit that crushes it, you just need to control the game enough that he doesn't get this perfect blob of units. If he does get it, you need to deny expansions and then crash the army over and over until you whittle it down.
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I've also lost twice to thors/helion/marauders.
Haven't tried infestors yet though... but it seems hard to get infestors as hydras are pretty gas intense....
Dtoping baneligs is pretty impossible... overlods get killed instantly when enemy has 3-5 thors
mutas die very quickly too... and the most annoying thing is that they bring several scv's and repair :|
here's one of the replays. feel free to post some suggestions
http://www.mediafire.com/?mywn3jevmgn
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Hydras + Roaches.
It's important that Hydras kill the marauders and you a1a2a3 the Roaches.
Hydras + Broodlords
This is the answer for Terran. Only thing that kills Broodlords are vikings/BCs. It's important that Hydras kill the vikings because if Terran sees one broodlord Terran will start making vikings.
Infestor + mass spdlings (upgraded)
fungal the hellions and watch spdlings pwn; stay out of hellion's range, alternatively baneling them hellions then mass spdling pwn
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EPT
