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On April 13 2010 02:26 Tristy wrote:
I cant see why they gave Thors the air buff, Terran is already one of the strongest races against air, with BC, stimed Marines, and Turrets (not to mention Vikings). I guess they will either do something to Terran or Zerg next patch as it is obvious that Terran is a bit OP against Zerg now. I am not saying they are unbeatable but it requires ALOT more effort from Z's side, atleast if T knows how to harass properly.
I wish I would have counted, but I was watching a replay yesterday and I saw about 18 or so mutas just evaporated in about 6 seconds by 3 thors... now do the math on the cost of that :-S Of course this was immediately after they sniped 4 infestors and then their MMMT ball quickly annihilated the superior Zerg force with ease.
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Thor marauder hellion is pretty gas expensive. You have the gas for the marauders, then the gas for at least two factories (cause if you're getting hellions too you'll want a factory with a reactor), the gas for the armory as well, and the gas for the thors... I can't see a terran pulling this build off without an expansion.
And if the terran fast expands, you can fast expand twice and outmacro him. Or you could one base ling/baneling push his expo and screw him.
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On April 09 2010 06:22 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 01:24 BlasiuS wrote:
Stick with roaches, you will force terran to get marauders, which will be an expensive transition if he opened with mech. did you even read the post? This army usually consists of mostly marauders with 2+ thors (depending how late the game is, but they usually end up with like 5 or 6 by late game), and then hellions with the igniter upgrade to wtfpwn lings. this build isn't a mech build so much as it is a mass marauder build using thors and hellions to counter the only things that can beat the marauders.
Yes I read the post. It doesn't say anything about mass maraduers =/ It just mentions mix of hellion/marauder/thor. Seeing as how 2 of those 3 units are fact units, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a mech build with some marauders thrown in 
If he has mass marauders with just a few thors/hellions, you need fungal growth + upgraded hydra -> tech to broodlords. Fungal Growth rapes marauders if there aren't any medivacs.
Mass marauders need medivacs to be effective against upgraded hydras. It takes a lot of gas for upgrades + medivacs + thors + hellions, terran needs at least 2 factories to be able to make both thors & hellions.
If he skimps on marauders, you make roaches. If he skimps on medivacs, you use fungal growth. If he skimps on hellions, you use mass speedlings. If he skimps on thors, you use muta.
If terran is using a good mix of units, you need a good mix of units yourself. Btw thor/hellion only counters some of the things that beat marauders, not all of them, most notably broodlords.
You can't just use one magic unit to beat a mix of thor/hellion/marauder/medivac. Use the correct mix of hydra/roach/ling/infestor/muta until you are able to get to broodlords.
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The thing about thor is that they are slow moving around. If they're hitting your bases, sneak a few muta in to wreak his econ. If they're defending the base, keep them penned in running back and forth while you take the map.
Generally abuse that lack of mobility as much as you possibly can.
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Not to be picky but in my experience broodlords really, really don't counter thors. You can get thors much earlier than broodlords, and usually in greater numbers.Thors also have a 9 range air attack so there's pretty much zero chance you're outranging them, either.
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On April 08 2010 14:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
Infestors => neutral paralyse Thors => GG
Oh damn, i forgot Blizzard nerfed that ability and now it is useless
Mass muta should be able to kill it!
Oh Wait! Blizzard buffed everything that might shoot at them, i guess we need sg else
The good old Roach and Hydra based ground army supported with lings can stand up to the chalenge
Wait, what you're saying? Patch 8? What? Roaches got nerfed, and Hydras nerfed even more? What? What retard had this stupid idea? I guess switch race, that's what i'm thinking about
You must be awful.
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On April 13 2010 03:57 shinosai wrote:
Not to be picky but in my experience broodlords really, really don't counter thors. You can get thors much earlier than broodlords, and usually in greater numbers.Thors also have a 9 range air attack so there's pretty much zero chance you're outranging them, either.
I think I'd need to see some replays of this, because the evidence shows contrary. I don't think a 1-range difference between 10-range thors & 9-range broodlords makes that much of a difference, broodlords can FLY so it's not like thors can hide behind a meatshield and snipe broodlords.
Broodlords have 275 health, Thors do pitiful damage to them since they are not light, and thors have an extremely slow rate of air-to-air attack. The reason they counter muta is because zerg will have many mutas, which makes splash more effective, and because mutas are light, which thors have bonus damage against; neither of these are true for broodlords. I really cannot see how thors 'counter' broodlords; thors are an anti-light air unit, not an anti-heavy air unit.
edit: oh yeah forgot that broodlords also start out with 2 armor compared to mutas which start out with 0 armor, and each volley of thors air attack is actually 4 separate attacks, meaning that by default thors do 8 less damage per attack.
edit 2: here's some hard numbers. Assuming no upgrades, thors do (8 + 4 bonus to light) = 12, 12 x 4 attacks = 48 splash damage per attack to mutas, + lots of additional for each muta that's clumped together. Meanwhile thors do (8 + 0 bonus to armored) = 8, 8 - 2 armor = 6, 6x4 = 24 splash damage per attack to broodlords, + just a little bit additional for what, maybe only 2 or 3 broodlords max that are clumped around the target.
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On April 13 2010 04:22 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 03:57 shinosai wrote:
Not to be picky but in my experience broodlords really, really don't counter thors. You can get thors much earlier than broodlords, and usually in greater numbers.Thors also have a 9 range air attack so there's pretty much zero chance you're outranging them, either. I think I'd need to see some replays of this, because the evidence shows contrary. I don't think a 1-range difference between 10-range thors & 9-range broodlords makes that much of a difference, broodlords can FLY so it's not like thors can hide behind a meatshield and snipe broodlords. Broodlords have 275 health, Thors do pitiful damage to them since they are not light, and thors have an extremely slow rate of air-to-air attack. The reason they counter muta is because zerg will have many mutas, which makes splash more effective, and because mutas are light, which thors have bonus damage against; neither of these are true for broodlords. I really cannot see how thors 'counter' broodlords; thors are an anti-light air unit, not an anti-heavy air unit. edit: oh yeah forgot that broodlords also start out with 2 armor compared to mutas which start out with 0 armor, making thors do even more pitiful damage against them.
For the same reason marines can technically counter broodlords. Because in a normal game broodlord is very late tech and will usually be outnumbered. Not to mention broodlord damage vs thors isn't exactly impressive either at 20 damage a shot (broodlings won't do much to a marauder hellion thor army). Takes nearly 20 volleys to kill a thor.
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On April 13 2010 04:30 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 04:22 BlasiuS wrote:On April 13 2010 03:57 shinosai wrote:
Not to be picky but in my experience broodlords really, really don't counter thors. You can get thors much earlier than broodlords, and usually in greater numbers.Thors also have a 9 range air attack so there's pretty much zero chance you're outranging them, either. I think I'd need to see some replays of this, because the evidence shows contrary. I don't think a 1-range difference between 10-range thors & 9-range broodlords makes that much of a difference, broodlords can FLY so it's not like thors can hide behind a meatshield and snipe broodlords. Broodlords have 275 health, Thors do pitiful damage to them since they are not light, and thors have an extremely slow rate of air-to-air attack. The reason they counter muta is because zerg will have many mutas, which makes splash more effective, and because mutas are light, which thors have bonus damage against; neither of these are true for broodlords. I really cannot see how thors 'counter' broodlords; thors are an anti-light air unit, not an anti-heavy air unit. edit: oh yeah forgot that broodlords also start out with 2 armor compared to mutas which start out with 0 armor, making thors do even more pitiful damage against them. For the same reason marines can technically counter broodlords. Because in a normal game broodlord is very late tech and will usually be outnumbered. Not to mention broodlord damage vs thors isn't exactly impressive either at 20 damage a shot (broodlings won't do much to a marauder hellion thor army). Takes nearly 20 volleys to kill a thor.
No, marines counter broodlords because of upgrades, and because of super-fast attack with stim. Almost every terran that opens with bio gets at least 2-2 upgrades, meanwhile zerg almost never get air upgrades. THAT'S what makes marines effective against broodlords. 0-0 broodlords can actually take out an insane number of 0-0 marines, as long as you don't do something stupid like fly 4 unsupported broodlords into a sea of 20+ marines. As for thors, terrans don't usually get vehicle upgrades if they have a mostly marauder army, and thors don't have stim, so I don't see the comparison there.
I'm not saying that broodlords counter thors. But I am saying that thors DON'T counter broodlords. Broodlords are used to kill the marauder/hellion, NOT the thors.
thors shouldn't be outnumbering broodlords unless you're pumping thors from 2+ facts, which means less gas for marauder + medivac = use more infestors for fungal growth + parasite.
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zerg doesn't upgrade air much, true. But they do upgrade ground melee and ground armor against terran. Those broodlings are no joke.
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On April 13 2010 06:18 link0 wrote:
zerg doesn't upgrade air much, true. But they do upgrade ground melee and ground armor against terran. Those broodlings are no joke.
The broodlings are actually a joke vT. Everything terran has vaporizes the broodligns before they get more than a bite off, especially at that stage of the game... Namely, hellions & marines...
Broodlords are rediculously powerful vs P because everything P has fires relatively slow and won't splash (cept colossii...but that's a few compared to the many hellion).
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On April 13 2010 06:29 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 06:18 link0 wrote:
zerg doesn't upgrade air much, true. But they do upgrade ground melee and ground armor against terran. Those broodlings are no joke. The broodlings are actually a joke vT. Everything terran has vaporizes the broodligns before they get more than a bite off, especially at that stage of the game... Namely, hellions & marines... Broodlords are rediculously powerful vs P because everything P has fires relatively slow and won't splash (cept colossii...but that's a few compared to the many hellion).
You realize them shooting the broodlords that don't cost you any minerals or gas at all while the rest of your units shoot them is a GOOD thing... right? lol....
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From my experience just mass roach beats the tar out of this strategy. You can't make enough marauders to actually handle it and with a thor your push is so unreal slow that you can setup roaches to flank from all directions as soon as you see him move out. If he goes for mass marauder and not a lot of hellions mass ling also works fine. Thors suck vs lings, marauders without medivacs are not cost effective. Hellions can't actually fight speedlings unless you have a lot with good positioning. A good speedling flank should demolish the push.
Those are the ways I've lost with that strategy. I don't think it's good because you lack flexibility in your army ratio. Zerg can abuse that too easily.
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On April 12 2010 23:24 madmax4 wrote:
i play terran only, but i suggest you doing this on mech:
mass ROACHES - they go first, on front line
mass LINGS - try micro them away from helions, flank
some HYDRAS - if he gets more marauders, less helions, then do more hydras
some BROODLORDS - really annoying and completely screw Thors AI (he shoots at broodlings...)
If zerg can get to broodlords, he's probably going to be fine, but getting to that point is the issue.
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maybe a few roach to stop hellion harass then straight hydra. when he moves out try to flank with lings from behind cause lings obliterate thor. ur hydra will own the rest.
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On April 13 2010 10:01 EuroBlast wrote:
maybe a few roach to stop hellion harass then straight hydra. when he moves out try to flank with lings from behind cause lings obliterate thor. ur hydra will own the rest.
I lost 10 hydras to one shot from hellions today. Was pretty epic. I caught him out of position with his thors at the back of the parade (i was hitting his army from the side while he was a-moving to my third). I focused the thors with large army composed of roach/hydra and it looked like I had this fight in the bag.
Except that while I was focusing his 3 thors down (which only took a few seconds), he saw the opportunity to run his hellions around the side of my hydras and instagib a whole line of them. I mean, i lost, but it was still epic. I had a taken a battle that was easily mine if I had just a-moved and lost it cause I focus fired and he made a slick move.
Moral of the story though is that straight hydra is a really bad idea.
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On April 13 2010 11:21 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 10:01 EuroBlast wrote:
maybe a few roach to stop hellion harass then straight hydra. when he moves out try to flank with lings from behind cause lings obliterate thor. ur hydra will own the rest. I lost 10 hydras to one shot from hellions today. Was pretty epic. I caught him out of position with his thors at the back of the parade (i was hitting his army from the side while he was a-moving to my third). I focused the thors with large army composed of roach/hydra and it looked like I had this fight in the bag. Except that while I was focusing his 3 thors down (which only took a few seconds), he saw the opportunity to run his hellions around the side of my hydras and instagib a whole line of them. I mean, i lost, but it was still epic. I had a taken a battle that was easily mine if I had just a-moved and lost it cause I focus fired and he made a slick move. Moral of the story though is that straight hydra is a really bad idea.
My philosophy in TvZ is make them make as many hydra as you can. The more hydra zerg makes the more they're losing. Roach are better in every way on the ground, and banelings are better in every way vs infantry. Hydra lose to bioballs, tanks, thors, and vikings in ground mode. More hydras = more terran winning.
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Corrupters should be able to freeze Massive Units, anyone agree?
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On April 13 2010 13:07 systema wrote:
Corrupters should be able to freeze Massive Units, anyone agree?
I think they need to tone the thor AA back down, i think they went way overboard on that buff.
Then if they buff the infestor, i think we'll be good. I know D. Browder said they are buffing the infestor, but who knows what they'll do to it. Neural parasite is proving to be a hard spell to balance. It's either too good (apparently, since they nerfed it), or rather useless as it is now. I mean, it CAN be good right now, but you can't depend on it. When you are playing to win you can't be gambling on units that may or may not pay off.
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On April 13 2010 13:07 systema wrote:
Corrupters should be able to freeze Massive Units, anyone agree?
terrible terrible idea. no way in hell ONE 150/100 tier 2 unit should be able to completely shut down a extremely expensive tier 3 unit.
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EPT
