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so, i've been coming up against this since the patch that gave thor's the splash vs muta. Tonight though, with the now much faster building thor's, it's been worse.
It seems very effective against zerg. Both marauders and thor's crush roaches pretty bad (well, mostly marauders), and upgraded hellions pretty much own any number of zerglings. The new thors shut muta down really really hard (like even worse than immortal shut roach down hard).
So pre-tonight's patch I've been trying to fight it with good ol' roach hydra with infestor support. Short of brood lords, I can't find any other units that are even worth making vs this army composition. However, with tonight's patch even that is having a rough time now (although it still holds up better than other strats i've tried against it).
I usually mix a few infestors in to grab thors, and this works for a few seconds usually before he just snipes em real fast with the long range marauders. Most of the time they don't even bother with tanks. Perhaps it is a gas issue, but i imagine if they managed to fit tanks in this would get even worse.
Anyone played against this yet and found a good solution for it? It seems to counter everything zerg pretty well, forcing us to just mass roach hydra.
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Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
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On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
Banelings eh? Are you suggesting to use them to try and counter the hellions, or to just drop them in the middle of everything in general?
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bannelings do alot of damage when they hit but are so easy to kill.
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i'm surprised these threads are just popping up with this patch that emphasizes thors, as they were sexy/amazing last patches too.
if they are doing a timing push, you want to get 2-4 infestors to MC the thors and stop the first push. If you successfully MC the thors in that timing push and break it, then you are way ahead.
you will also want to nydus/overlord drop and any harrass you can as usual. If you went mutas, do not just see 1 thor and run away, poke for vulnerablity, see if there are enough turrets, and break any weak spot that you can. It will delay the thor/hellion timing for you to get more infestors/roaches/hydra.
most games i've played mass zerglings and panic zerglings have sucked when I did thor/hellion, so do not fall into that trap, roach/banelings or hydra/baneling will always be better than all zerglings, but you want to build up as many roaches as you can vs this because the key part for T when they do thor/hellion mech is to let the thors absorb as much damage as possible while the hellions kill hydras/zlings that try to kill the thors.
and if they do a much later attack into late-game expos, simply macro up roach/hydra/infestor and you should be good to go.
if T goes for dropship harrass/hellion harrass, defend with roaches and make sure you do not maynard drones by clicking on a mineral, as it will line them all up for hellions to kill em much more easily.
roach/hydra/infestor nydus/drops seems like your best bet right now imo. Oh, and broodlords 
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Infestors => neutral paralyse Thors => GG
Oh damn, i forgot Blizzard nerfed that ability and now it is useless
Mass muta should be able to kill it!
Oh Wait! Blizzard buffed everything that might shoot at them, i guess we need sg else
The good old Roach and Hydra based ground army supported with lings can stand up to the chalenge
Wait, what you're saying? Patch 8? What? Roaches got nerfed, and Hydras nerfed even more? What? What retard had this stupid idea? I guess switch race, that's what i'm thinking about
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On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
Totally agree. As soon as you see the thors, keep what mutas you have if it's that late, or transition directly to hydras, lay down a roach warren, then when you get enough gasses going add on the infestors. Take the map, thors can't really get around and as long as you keep an eye on them, steady changelings coming in here and there, seeing where T moves, you add just a touch of pressure to keep him in his base.
From here on out keep up unit production with him while taking expos. Granted it's easier said than done, but one can get the hang of it fairly quickly and it's very strong
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On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
This is the most generic and useless advice you can give..
"Hey use every unit, and just outmacro him"
I don't see how the 12 or so banelings can affect the outcome(if they even hit.. thors kill overlords pretty fast)
The only real way to counter this push is to harass him and chip off his army bit by bit with a roach heavy army, and threaten a counter whenever he tries to move out.
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On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions)
hm let's see, thor has 400 health, banelings do 20 damage to thors...that's 20 banelings just to kill 1 thor. And thors are so big you won't be doing any baneling splash if you target thors.
That's 1000/500 resources worth of banelings to kill a 300/200 cost thor....total fail.
Similar story against marauders...it takes 7 banelings to kill 1 marauder.
That's 350/175 resources worth of banelings to kill a 100/25 cost marauder...total fail again.
They're only cost-effective vs. hellion. You are seriously going to try and drop banelings in the middle of a thor/marauder/hellion blob and try to snipe the hellions (one of the fastest units in the game btw)? No.
Banelings should not be used against a hellion/marauder/thor army, or really any mech army.
Stick with roaches, you will force terran to get marauders, which will be an expensive transition if he opened with mech.
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Just make infinite roach. I've tried mara, thor, hellion and you don't have the production to build enough marauders to counter mass roach. Add in some speedlings if he starts laying off the hellions and you win.
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[QUOTE]On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Just outmacro him[QUOTE]
This- zerg's macro mechanics are way stronger than the other races, especially terran. Remember that you are losing if your on the same # of bases as the terran, and try to outproduce him severly so that for every 2 units he kills and 1 unit you kill still puts you ahead. This isn't easy but zergs beat me all the time in just that manner, and you can beat terrans just like that, too!
The OPs right in saying that that particular army composition is really strong versus zerg since the most recent patch, and muta's are really not that viable vs terran anymore. Thus, (if my original suggestion is impossible due to good play with reaper harass / banshee harass while still building the thor/hellion/marauder/medivac army), i propose trying to suck the terrans into bad tactical situations. Its pretty easy to sucker hellions out infront of his army with a little bait, and if you can kill them early the rest of his army is extreamly vulnerable to large #s of speedlings/cracklings.
Good luck!
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Since the patch befor last I was opening w/ hellion into marauder with a single thor. The one thor would almost always keep them from going spire because of the splash allowing me to cut back on turrets and be really agressive. If they made a spire i kept making thor, but typically i stopped after 1 and just repaired it on the push. Since the roach nerf I've only played 4 TvZ's but I'm finding that I can do a lot more options and include marines in my build with fast 1-0.
When I ZvT I usually open speedling and get a spine at my nat. Even though ling die quickly to hellion, I think they are a decent option with micro especially if you push your creep out. Follow that up with roaches while getting lair and infestor.
you want to get 2-4 infestors to MC the thors
Im not sure it's possible to get 2-4 infestors by the time T gets a thor out without sacrificing your army and making yourself very vulnerable.
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i watched a couple streams of gretorp yesterday where he goes fast thor drop tries to snipe the queen (2 shots kill queen) plays it kind of like reaver/tank harass
basically harasses the zerg and then out expands him. A thor would get a few kills each drop retreat and get repaired. i don't think he lost any units and killed like 5 hydra 2 extractors and a queen (from a cliff)
Finish up with mass thor/hellion/marauder.
didnt look like the zerg could really do much..
queen dies to 2 shots
hydras get 1 hit KO'd
roaches 2 shot but if you have a medivac u can basically fly around all day
i would probably get spore crawlers and mass ling rush him early game if he rushes a thor.
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On April 09 2010 01:24 BlasiuS wrote:
Stick with roaches, you will force terran to get marauders, which will be an expensive transition if he opened with mech.
did you even read the post? This army usually consists of mostly marauders with 2+ thors (depending how late the game is, but they usually end up with like 5 or 6 by late game), and then hellions with the igniter upgrade to wtfpwn lings.
this build isn't a mech build so much as it is a mass marauder build using thors and hellions to counter the only things that can beat the marauders.
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Mass hydra and tank the hellions with a couple of roaches.
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On April 09 2010 06:37 LagT_T wrote:
Mass hydra and tank the hellions with a couple of roaches.
You will get raped to death if you still going for mass hydra roach this patch..
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Calgary25990 Posts
This thread seems to me kind of like asking "How do I beat Templar/Colossus/Sentry?". Like there's not going to be one unit that crushes it, you just need to control the game enough that he doesn't get this perfect blob of units. If he does get it, you need to deny expansions and then crash the army over and over until you whittle it down.
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I've also lost twice to thors/helion/marauders.
Haven't tried infestors yet though... but it seems hard to get infestors as hydras are pretty gas intense....
Dtoping baneligs is pretty impossible... overlods get killed instantly when enemy has 3-5 thors
mutas die very quickly too... and the most annoying thing is that they bring several scv's and repair :|
here's one of the replays. feel free to post some suggestions
http://www.mediafire.com/?mywn3jevmgn
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Hydras + Roaches.
It's important that Hydras kill the marauders and you a1a2a3 the Roaches.
Hydras + Broodlords
This is the answer for Terran. Only thing that kills Broodlords are vikings/BCs. It's important that Hydras kill the vikings because if Terran sees one broodlord Terran will start making vikings.
Infestor + mass spdlings (upgraded)
fungal the hellions and watch spdlings pwn; stay out of hellion's range, alternatively baneling them hellions then mass spdling pwn
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Pretty much all you can do is pray Terran screws up somehow when attacking with their timing push MMMT balls. Your only hope as Z is to have a mach larger and more diverse army than his and use infestors' abilities. Most likely the T will snipe ur infestors very quickly and run over the rest.
People talk about using mutas for harassment but with the huge turret buff and any thors that may be in T's base will simply annihilate ur mutas or at least make it a much larger loss for you.
VS an equal T or better who knows how to play vs Z it seems they have a huge advantage you must constantly overcome from the Reaper/hellion/cloaked banshee harass to the Marauder push to the upgraded MMMT ball and on.
I've seen about 70% loss rate by Z in ZvT matches from top 5 streamers it's pretty silly at this point that it hasn't been rebalanced somehow... O wait yea they did by nerfing the Roach and Hydra haha.
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The problem is that in some maps is super difficult to get ahead, in DO thors can shut down your geysers and any number of hydras you use to defend them, then even if you manage to drop some units at his island expansion he can make the hellion/marauder/thor push and you dont have enough gas for infestors... it is quite difficult now to beat terran, i recommend roach/ling with infestors and getting a good enough flank (in some maps like kulas imposible) with your lings so they all dont die to the hellions...
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On April 08 2010 14:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
Infestors => neutral paralyse Thors => GG
Oh damn, i forgot Blizzard nerfed that ability and now it is useless
Mass muta should be able to kill it!
Oh Wait! Blizzard buffed everything that might shoot at them, i guess we need sg else
The good old Roach and Hydra based ground army supported with lings can stand up to the chalenge
Wait, what you're saying? Patch 8? What? Roaches got nerfed, and Hydras nerfed even more? What? What retard had this stupid idea? I guess switch race, that's what i'm thinking about
zerg is still the best race btw lol. Roach/hydra still kills any army composition in the game.
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Terran can hide 3-4 SCVs behind Thors for repair... and you can't target them, so you can only kill them with banshee splash.
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On April 08 2010 14:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
Infestors => neutral paralyse Thors => GG
Oh damn, i forgot Blizzard nerfed that ability and now it is useless
Mass muta should be able to kill it!
Oh Wait! Blizzard buffed everything that might shoot at them, i guess we need sg else
The good old Roach and Hydra based ground army supported with lings can stand up to the chalenge
Wait, what you're saying? Patch 8? What? Roaches got nerfed, and Hydras nerfed even more? What? What retard had this stupid idea? I guess switch race, that's what i'm thinking about
Actually infestors are really easy to kill. Thors one shot them and thor auto attack has alot longer range than their parasite.
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On April 11 2010 23:46 OHtRUe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 14:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
Infestors => neutral paralyse Thors => GG
Oh damn, i forgot Blizzard nerfed that ability and now it is useless
Mass muta should be able to kill it!
Oh Wait! Blizzard buffed everything that might shoot at them, i guess we need sg else
The good old Roach and Hydra based ground army supported with lings can stand up to the chalenge
Wait, what you're saying? Patch 8? What? Roaches got nerfed, and Hydras nerfed even more? What? What retard had this stupid idea? I guess switch race, that's what i'm thinking about
zerg is still the best race btw lol. Roach/hydra still kills any army composition in the game.
This is true. As long as you can shut down any thor or helion harass and keep on expanding pure roach hydra is the best way to go. Also thors become ridiculously bad lategame when there's alot of roaches since they will drop so fast and roaches wont. The 1 food roach is currently what's stopping this build hard atm. Terran can win with this if they get ahead with harass, not otherwise.
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I tested the Thor drop with my practice partner - and it is very very hard to defend on a map with cliffs. Close to impossible on LT. Look like you need to put 3 spine crawlers next to cliff to save your natural.
Thor+Hellion+Marauder army cannot be beaten head-to-head with equal resources. You have to backstab, drop and outmacro Terran, which basically means to outplay him with superior skill.
Does anyone have a replay of beating this strategy as Zerg on Lost Temple?
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This has been annihilating me too. I used to be able to deal with thors but now they are coming out way earlier and there will be more than one usually in the back where I can't reach. They are like collosus, sorta, but invulnerable to air. When I go mutas it is pretty much gg right there. Static defenses seem to just get annihilated. I haven't tried roach, I usually don't use them against terran, but I may have to now.
I find when there are a lot of thors and marauders out, I tend to switch to zerglings but there are so many in this build that I run out of larvae and minerals stack up. I've been toying with throwing down another hatch in my main and just pumping out lings, but I don't know if that'll work. I'd probably get roasted by hellions.
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If i can out expand him, I can win; but that isn't surprising. It is hard though because they can rush out a few hellions and take total map control, forcing you to leave your roaches at home for defence.
At that point you are now trying to figure out if you should be spamming roaches or rushing hydra. if you choose wrong it's pretty much over in the next couple minutes due to either banshees or the marauder, thor, hellion push.
so you have to sac on overlord into his base as soon as you see hellions and try to spot more rax, an armory and tech lab factory, or the starports.
spore colonies should always be put down if you are blind, but it is hard to cover everything. so if the hydra den isn't down and you lose the queen you are going to take damage. problem is if you are going for hydras and it turns out he was doing marauder thor, you are pretty much boned.
then, if you manage to survive the early game, you still have to secure a third to secure a win. although i've had some success with 2 base brood lord.
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now they are coming out way earlier
Thors are just coming 15s earlier than previously, it is just that people tend to tech faster to them. What is important to know is that if someone techs hards to Thor, he has a very bad army (only marines almost), so it is easily rushable by a banneling/Zergling. Moreover, T tend to lift off the first barack after making a tech lab, so that the factory gets to thor even faster. If you spot this (sacrifice some zerglings to this), you can destroy the factory that is in front of the wall (since the barrack was in front of the wall). It has 1250 HP I think so you have to send quite a lot of bannelings, but well, if you kill it, it's GG... He would have teched for this for nothing and have something like 6-10 marines?
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Ok ill just say tha.t first off i don't have a beta, but while were theorycrafting.... I personallly wonder if the infestor can still be utilized with out being sniped. If this is mid to early game its possible that the terren don't have a medivac because the gas cost. On some maps wouldn't it be possible to drop and couple of infestors on some high ground. In a good position to face the terren army and then use the MC abiliy to wreck havoc with the thors? The best part is they can't shoot you back if they don't have vision up the cliff and if they have a medicvac you can either snipe it with hydras... OR MC that first. Again no beta key but it could be possible if played right.
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On April 12 2010 08:04 jaybrundage wrote:
Ok ill just say tha.t first off i don't have a beta, but while were theorycrafting.... I personallly wonder if the infestor can still be utilized with out being sniped. If this is mid to early game its possible that the terren don't have a medivac because the gas cost. On some maps wouldn't it be possible to drop and couple of infestors on some high ground. In a good position to face the terren army and then use the MC abiliy to wreck havoc with the thors? The best part is they can't shoot you back if they don't have vision up the cliff and if they have a medicvac you can either snipe it with hydras... OR MC that first. Again no beta key but it could be possible if played right.
I've managed to grab a thor from a cliff a few times, and it's always hillarious.
Then they comsat and the infestor dies, and I frown.
It's still funny for the few seconds where you know they are like "wtf is going on".
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Seems like people are complaining about infestors being to gas heavy to build vs this, and then I want to say that if you cant sacrifice a few hydras for those important infestors, then you dont deserve to win. Its small things like this that make a difference. You can still go mutas if the terran has thors because it makes him stay at his base and defend while you conquer the side of your map. If a good zerg player can control his mutas and send them to right places for harassment, then he can delay the terran attack for ages.
Zerg fighting Terran in sc2 is almost like Zerg fighting Protoss in brood war, you cant just clash in one battle and hope to win. You have to take down the army piece by piece.
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go roach hydra infestor after you get muta.
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On April 09 2010 01:24 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions) hm let's see, thor has 400 health, banelings do 20 damage to thors...that's 20 banelings just to kill 1 thor. And thors are so big you won't be doing any baneling splash if you target thors. That's 1000/500 resources worth of banelings to kill a 300/200 cost thor....total fail. Similar story against marauders...it takes 7 banelings to kill 1 marauder. That's 350/175 resources worth of banelings to kill a 100/25 cost marauder...total fail again. They're only cost-effective vs. hellion. You are seriously going to try and drop banelings in the middle of a thor/marauder/hellion blob and try to snipe the hellions (one of the fastest units in the game btw)? No. Banelings should not be used against a hellion/marauder/thor army, or really any mech army. Stick with roaches, you will force terran to get marauders, which will be an expensive transition if he opened with mech.
uh
youre terrible at math son banelings do splash damage, and if dropped with overlords while the rest of your army is engaging almsot always hit (on the maurader ball, because your army is mostly roaches, which wreck thor//helion). , if you spread the banes out they drop all at the same time and kill stuff. extra points if you drop right after stim, and his army jsut dies and you win the game straight out splash damage is REALLY good in sc2, you should try playing it sometime instead of adding up numbers wrong.
and before you go talking bout overlords dying thors splash is still small and overlords are bulky and spread out when you move them right. neither mauraders or helion can shoot air.
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T simpy get more bang for the buck, the only way to beat this strat is to be a superiour player.
Harass, outmacro etc. But you wont get away with that unless you are a better player.
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On April 09 2010 07:31 Chill wrote:
This thread seems to me kind of like asking "How do I beat Templar/Colossus/Sentry?". Like there's not going to be one unit that crushes it, you just need to control the game enough that he doesn't get this perfect blob of units. If he does get it, you need to deny expansions and then crash the army over and over until you whittle it down.
This, seriously use active strategies to disturb him in early mid game, if he goes for defence safe expand play go for double exp possiby for rich field and then you can use mass roachs or baneling+roach. If you let terran to have that kind of an army than all you can do is to hit and run strategies to his base or mineral lines to keep him in base.
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i play terran only, but i suggest you doing this on mech:
mass ROACHES - they go first, on front line
mass LINGS - try micro them away from helions, flank
some HYDRAS - if he gets more marauders, less helions, then do more hydras
some BROODLORDS - really annoying and completely screw Thors AI (he shoots at broodlings...)
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On April 08 2010 13:19 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 13:04 Butigroove wrote:
Roach/Hydra/Baneling/Infestor does pretty well. Just outmacro him, and use 5 or 6 overlords to drop the banes on him (2 or so in each)
fungal does incredbly well vs this army because of reduced healing (not as many/no meds for helions) Banelings eh? Are you suggesting to use them to try and counter the hellions, or to just drop them in the middle of everything in general?
banelings absolutely evaporate hellions. i didn't think it would work at first but one time someone pushed my roach/baneling army and they were all gone before my roaches could get off their first volley. it's pretty epic to watch. Also dropping them on the mineral line is really really really super cool, and if T doesn't see you going mutas, he usually never has missile turrets or anything around his minerals
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I cant see why they gave Thors the air buff, Terran is already one of the strongest races against air, with BC, stimed Marines, and Turrets (not to mention Vikings). I guess they will either do something to Terran or Zerg next patch as it is obvious that Terran is a bit OP against Zerg now. I am not saying they are unbeatable but it requires ALOT more effort from Z's side, atleast if T knows how to harass properly.
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On April 13 2010 02:26 Tristy wrote:
I cant see why they gave Thors the air buff, Terran is already one of the strongest races against air, with BC, stimed Marines, and Turrets (not to mention Vikings). I guess they will either do something to Terran or Zerg next patch as it is obvious that Terran is a bit OP against Zerg now. I am not saying they are unbeatable but it requires ALOT more effort from Z's side, atleast if T knows how to harass properly.
I wish I would have counted, but I was watching a replay yesterday and I saw about 18 or so mutas just evaporated in about 6 seconds by 3 thors... now do the math on the cost of that :-S Of course this was immediately after they sniped 4 infestors and then their MMMT ball quickly annihilated the superior Zerg force with ease.
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Thor marauder hellion is pretty gas expensive. You have the gas for the marauders, then the gas for at least two factories (cause if you're getting hellions too you'll want a factory with a reactor), the gas for the armory as well, and the gas for the thors... I can't see a terran pulling this build off without an expansion.
And if the terran fast expands, you can fast expand twice and outmacro him. Or you could one base ling/baneling push his expo and screw him.
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On April 09 2010 06:22 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 01:24 BlasiuS wrote:
Stick with roaches, you will force terran to get marauders, which will be an expensive transition if he opened with mech. did you even read the post? This army usually consists of mostly marauders with 2+ thors (depending how late the game is, but they usually end up with like 5 or 6 by late game), and then hellions with the igniter upgrade to wtfpwn lings. this build isn't a mech build so much as it is a mass marauder build using thors and hellions to counter the only things that can beat the marauders.
Yes I read the post. It doesn't say anything about mass maraduers =/ It just mentions mix of hellion/marauder/thor. Seeing as how 2 of those 3 units are fact units, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume a mech build with some marauders thrown in 
If he has mass marauders with just a few thors/hellions, you need fungal growth + upgraded hydra -> tech to broodlords. Fungal Growth rapes marauders if there aren't any medivacs.
Mass marauders need medivacs to be effective against upgraded hydras. It takes a lot of gas for upgrades + medivacs + thors + hellions, terran needs at least 2 factories to be able to make both thors & hellions.
If he skimps on marauders, you make roaches. If he skimps on medivacs, you use fungal growth. If he skimps on hellions, you use mass speedlings. If he skimps on thors, you use muta.
If terran is using a good mix of units, you need a good mix of units yourself. Btw thor/hellion only counters some of the things that beat marauders, not all of them, most notably broodlords.
You can't just use one magic unit to beat a mix of thor/hellion/marauder/medivac. Use the correct mix of hydra/roach/ling/infestor/muta until you are able to get to broodlords.
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The thing about thor is that they are slow moving around. If they're hitting your bases, sneak a few muta in to wreak his econ. If they're defending the base, keep them penned in running back and forth while you take the map.
Generally abuse that lack of mobility as much as you possibly can.
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Not to be picky but in my experience broodlords really, really don't counter thors. You can get thors much earlier than broodlords, and usually in greater numbers.Thors also have a 9 range air attack so there's pretty much zero chance you're outranging them, either.
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On April 08 2010 14:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
Infestors => neutral paralyse Thors => GG
Oh damn, i forgot Blizzard nerfed that ability and now it is useless
Mass muta should be able to kill it!
Oh Wait! Blizzard buffed everything that might shoot at them, i guess we need sg else
The good old Roach and Hydra based ground army supported with lings can stand up to the chalenge
Wait, what you're saying? Patch 8? What? Roaches got nerfed, and Hydras nerfed even more? What? What retard had this stupid idea? I guess switch race, that's what i'm thinking about
You must be awful.
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On April 13 2010 03:57 shinosai wrote:
Not to be picky but in my experience broodlords really, really don't counter thors. You can get thors much earlier than broodlords, and usually in greater numbers.Thors also have a 9 range air attack so there's pretty much zero chance you're outranging them, either.
I think I'd need to see some replays of this, because the evidence shows contrary. I don't think a 1-range difference between 10-range thors & 9-range broodlords makes that much of a difference, broodlords can FLY so it's not like thors can hide behind a meatshield and snipe broodlords.
Broodlords have 275 health, Thors do pitiful damage to them since they are not light, and thors have an extremely slow rate of air-to-air attack. The reason they counter muta is because zerg will have many mutas, which makes splash more effective, and because mutas are light, which thors have bonus damage against; neither of these are true for broodlords. I really cannot see how thors 'counter' broodlords; thors are an anti-light air unit, not an anti-heavy air unit.
edit: oh yeah forgot that broodlords also start out with 2 armor compared to mutas which start out with 0 armor, and each volley of thors air attack is actually 4 separate attacks, meaning that by default thors do 8 less damage per attack.
edit 2: here's some hard numbers. Assuming no upgrades, thors do (8 + 4 bonus to light) = 12, 12 x 4 attacks = 48 splash damage per attack to mutas, + lots of additional for each muta that's clumped together. Meanwhile thors do (8 + 0 bonus to armored) = 8, 8 - 2 armor = 6, 6x4 = 24 splash damage per attack to broodlords, + just a little bit additional for what, maybe only 2 or 3 broodlords max that are clumped around the target.
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On April 13 2010 04:22 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 03:57 shinosai wrote:
Not to be picky but in my experience broodlords really, really don't counter thors. You can get thors much earlier than broodlords, and usually in greater numbers.Thors also have a 9 range air attack so there's pretty much zero chance you're outranging them, either. I think I'd need to see some replays of this, because the evidence shows contrary. I don't think a 1-range difference between 10-range thors & 9-range broodlords makes that much of a difference, broodlords can FLY so it's not like thors can hide behind a meatshield and snipe broodlords. Broodlords have 275 health, Thors do pitiful damage to them since they are not light, and thors have an extremely slow rate of air-to-air attack. The reason they counter muta is because zerg will have many mutas, which makes splash more effective, and because mutas are light, which thors have bonus damage against; neither of these are true for broodlords. I really cannot see how thors 'counter' broodlords; thors are an anti-light air unit, not an anti-heavy air unit. edit: oh yeah forgot that broodlords also start out with 2 armor compared to mutas which start out with 0 armor, making thors do even more pitiful damage against them.
For the same reason marines can technically counter broodlords. Because in a normal game broodlord is very late tech and will usually be outnumbered. Not to mention broodlord damage vs thors isn't exactly impressive either at 20 damage a shot (broodlings won't do much to a marauder hellion thor army). Takes nearly 20 volleys to kill a thor.
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On April 13 2010 04:30 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 04:22 BlasiuS wrote:On April 13 2010 03:57 shinosai wrote:
Not to be picky but in my experience broodlords really, really don't counter thors. You can get thors much earlier than broodlords, and usually in greater numbers.Thors also have a 9 range air attack so there's pretty much zero chance you're outranging them, either. I think I'd need to see some replays of this, because the evidence shows contrary. I don't think a 1-range difference between 10-range thors & 9-range broodlords makes that much of a difference, broodlords can FLY so it's not like thors can hide behind a meatshield and snipe broodlords. Broodlords have 275 health, Thors do pitiful damage to them since they are not light, and thors have an extremely slow rate of air-to-air attack. The reason they counter muta is because zerg will have many mutas, which makes splash more effective, and because mutas are light, which thors have bonus damage against; neither of these are true for broodlords. I really cannot see how thors 'counter' broodlords; thors are an anti-light air unit, not an anti-heavy air unit. edit: oh yeah forgot that broodlords also start out with 2 armor compared to mutas which start out with 0 armor, making thors do even more pitiful damage against them. For the same reason marines can technically counter broodlords. Because in a normal game broodlord is very late tech and will usually be outnumbered. Not to mention broodlord damage vs thors isn't exactly impressive either at 20 damage a shot (broodlings won't do much to a marauder hellion thor army). Takes nearly 20 volleys to kill a thor.
No, marines counter broodlords because of upgrades, and because of super-fast attack with stim. Almost every terran that opens with bio gets at least 2-2 upgrades, meanwhile zerg almost never get air upgrades. THAT'S what makes marines effective against broodlords. 0-0 broodlords can actually take out an insane number of 0-0 marines, as long as you don't do something stupid like fly 4 unsupported broodlords into a sea of 20+ marines. As for thors, terrans don't usually get vehicle upgrades if they have a mostly marauder army, and thors don't have stim, so I don't see the comparison there.
I'm not saying that broodlords counter thors. But I am saying that thors DON'T counter broodlords. Broodlords are used to kill the marauder/hellion, NOT the thors.
thors shouldn't be outnumbering broodlords unless you're pumping thors from 2+ facts, which means less gas for marauder + medivac = use more infestors for fungal growth + parasite.
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zerg doesn't upgrade air much, true. But they do upgrade ground melee and ground armor against terran. Those broodlings are no joke.
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On April 13 2010 06:18 link0 wrote:
zerg doesn't upgrade air much, true. But they do upgrade ground melee and ground armor against terran. Those broodlings are no joke.
The broodlings are actually a joke vT. Everything terran has vaporizes the broodligns before they get more than a bite off, especially at that stage of the game... Namely, hellions & marines...
Broodlords are rediculously powerful vs P because everything P has fires relatively slow and won't splash (cept colossii...but that's a few compared to the many hellion).
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On April 13 2010 06:29 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 06:18 link0 wrote:
zerg doesn't upgrade air much, true. But they do upgrade ground melee and ground armor against terran. Those broodlings are no joke. The broodlings are actually a joke vT. Everything terran has vaporizes the broodligns before they get more than a bite off, especially at that stage of the game... Namely, hellions & marines... Broodlords are rediculously powerful vs P because everything P has fires relatively slow and won't splash (cept colossii...but that's a few compared to the many hellion).
You realize them shooting the broodlords that don't cost you any minerals or gas at all while the rest of your units shoot them is a GOOD thing... right? lol....
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From my experience just mass roach beats the tar out of this strategy. You can't make enough marauders to actually handle it and with a thor your push is so unreal slow that you can setup roaches to flank from all directions as soon as you see him move out. If he goes for mass marauder and not a lot of hellions mass ling also works fine. Thors suck vs lings, marauders without medivacs are not cost effective. Hellions can't actually fight speedlings unless you have a lot with good positioning. A good speedling flank should demolish the push.
Those are the ways I've lost with that strategy. I don't think it's good because you lack flexibility in your army ratio. Zerg can abuse that too easily.
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On April 12 2010 23:24 madmax4 wrote:
i play terran only, but i suggest you doing this on mech:
mass ROACHES - they go first, on front line
mass LINGS - try micro them away from helions, flank
some HYDRAS - if he gets more marauders, less helions, then do more hydras
some BROODLORDS - really annoying and completely screw Thors AI (he shoots at broodlings...)
If zerg can get to broodlords, he's probably going to be fine, but getting to that point is the issue.
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maybe a few roach to stop hellion harass then straight hydra. when he moves out try to flank with lings from behind cause lings obliterate thor. ur hydra will own the rest.
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On April 13 2010 10:01 EuroBlast wrote:
maybe a few roach to stop hellion harass then straight hydra. when he moves out try to flank with lings from behind cause lings obliterate thor. ur hydra will own the rest.
I lost 10 hydras to one shot from hellions today. Was pretty epic. I caught him out of position with his thors at the back of the parade (i was hitting his army from the side while he was a-moving to my third). I focused the thors with large army composed of roach/hydra and it looked like I had this fight in the bag.
Except that while I was focusing his 3 thors down (which only took a few seconds), he saw the opportunity to run his hellions around the side of my hydras and instagib a whole line of them. I mean, i lost, but it was still epic. I had a taken a battle that was easily mine if I had just a-moved and lost it cause I focus fired and he made a slick move.
Moral of the story though is that straight hydra is a really bad idea.
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On April 13 2010 11:21 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 10:01 EuroBlast wrote:
maybe a few roach to stop hellion harass then straight hydra. when he moves out try to flank with lings from behind cause lings obliterate thor. ur hydra will own the rest. I lost 10 hydras to one shot from hellions today. Was pretty epic. I caught him out of position with his thors at the back of the parade (i was hitting his army from the side while he was a-moving to my third). I focused the thors with large army composed of roach/hydra and it looked like I had this fight in the bag. Except that while I was focusing his 3 thors down (which only took a few seconds), he saw the opportunity to run his hellions around the side of my hydras and instagib a whole line of them. I mean, i lost, but it was still epic. I had a taken a battle that was easily mine if I had just a-moved and lost it cause I focus fired and he made a slick move. Moral of the story though is that straight hydra is a really bad idea.
My philosophy in TvZ is make them make as many hydra as you can. The more hydra zerg makes the more they're losing. Roach are better in every way on the ground, and banelings are better in every way vs infantry. Hydra lose to bioballs, tanks, thors, and vikings in ground mode. More hydras = more terran winning.
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Corrupters should be able to freeze Massive Units, anyone agree?
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On April 13 2010 13:07 systema wrote:
Corrupters should be able to freeze Massive Units, anyone agree?
I think they need to tone the thor AA back down, i think they went way overboard on that buff.
Then if they buff the infestor, i think we'll be good. I know D. Browder said they are buffing the infestor, but who knows what they'll do to it. Neural parasite is proving to be a hard spell to balance. It's either too good (apparently, since they nerfed it), or rather useless as it is now. I mean, it CAN be good right now, but you can't depend on it. When you are playing to win you can't be gambling on units that may or may not pay off.
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On April 13 2010 13:07 systema wrote:
Corrupters should be able to freeze Massive Units, anyone agree?
terrible terrible idea. no way in hell ONE 150/100 tier 2 unit should be able to completely shut down a extremely expensive tier 3 unit.
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everyone says outmacro. its not that easy. let me tell u a story. let me begin by saying the terran walled his ramp with 3 supply depot. i did the baneling/ling rush thing and wow was it effective!! it killed all THREE supply depots!!!!! but he got a buncha helions so he survived. I had some extra lings so i decided to baneling bomb his new wall again and it was like dejavu another 3 supply depot gone. a total of 6 supply depot gone. i can't imagine a greater head start. also i had an expo after my first bomb to keep the lead. so its 2 base vs 1 and terran lost 6 depots. With all 4 of my gases up. He also wasted 4 reapers trying to jump my drones but my lings got em easily. He lost 4 reapers while I lost nothing. So im in an even bigger lead. i was really confident and i decided to go mutas to continue the harrass. but thats when i saw his thors. and thats when i decided to switch from mutas to hydras but was already too late. i couldn't pump out enuff hydras to fend off his thors.
Long story short I had the greatest lead in the world but still lost once his instant win thors came. He have 1 expo less than me 6 supply depot short and less scv during midgame and he still won cuz of his thors. Now that I am thinking about it. I coulda make 5-6 infesters instead of hydras and MC his thors instead. But I wouldn’t had the hydras to kill off his marauders and hellions also….so I really don’t know. Those thors can prolly kill my infestors before I can even come in range to MC.
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On April 18 2010 11:07 BiggestNoobEver wrote:
everyone says outmacro. its not that easy. let me tell u a story. let me begin by saying the terran walled his ramp with 3 supply depot. i did the baneling/ling rush thing and wow was it effective!! it killed all THREE supply depots!!!!! but he got a buncha helions so he survived. I had some extra lings so i decided to baneling bomb his new wall again and it was like dejavu another 3 supply depot gone. a total of 6 supply depot gone. i can't imagine a greater head start. also i had an expo after my first bomb to keep the lead. so its 2 base vs 1 and terran lost 6 depots. With all 4 of my gases up. He also wasted 4 reapers trying to jump my drones but my lings got em easily. He lost 4 reapers while I lost nothing. So im in an even bigger lead. i was really confident and i decided to go mutas to continue the harrass. but thats when i saw his thors. and thats when i decided to switch from mutas to hydras but was already too late. i couldn't pump out enuff hydras to fend off his thors.
Long story short I had the greatest lead in the world but still lost once his instant win thors came. He have 1 expo less than me 6 supply depot short and less scv during midgame and he still won cuz of his thors. Now that I am thinking about it. I coulda make 5-6 infesters instead of hydras and MC his thors instead. But I wouldn’t had the hydras to kill off his marauders and hellions also….so I really don’t know. Those thors can prolly kill my infestors before I can even come in range to MC.
sounds like you really werent in all that big of a lead afterall, and your tech was WAY too slow. One thing people need to learn about zerg is you can't really throw down your tech buildings reactively, they need to be up when you are in the mid game so you are prepared to counter anything. Did you stop building drones after a certain point? I really dont think you should attribute a loss like this to imbalance. Analyze the replay and im sure you will find a glaring mistake in your play.
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In a straight-up fight I think maurader/thor/hellion would win vs almost any zerg comp.
Thors ONE-SHOT hydras so imo, they arent so great to get when he has thors.
If T is pumping thors, a good neural by an infestor will screw him over bad.
Thors also one-shot hellions and they cant be used against you if you mc them.
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I can only play offline vs AI since I don't have a key, but what about ling/ultras? If you turtle and build economy early game, you could just get every extractor available to you, and do sweet surrounds. Lings take out thors/marauders, and ultras absorb near infinite damage when upgraded. Another possibility is some drop play with lings to snipe poorly protected expansions, since thors are super immobile. If he sends back hellions/marauders to kill the lings, even better! Kill the thors he leaves behind!
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They should make Thors a building so corruptors can corrupt it.
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This is a tough combo, but what about ling/ultras? If you turtle and build economy early game, you could just get every extractor available to you, and do sweet surrounds. Lings take out thors/marauders, and ultras absorb near infinite damage when upgraded. Another possibility is some drop play with lings to snipe poorly protected expansions, since thors are super immobile. If he sends back hellions/marauders to kill the lings, even better! Kill the thors he leaves behind!
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On April 18 2010 11:25 uberdeluxe wrote:
This is a tough combo, but what about ling/ultras? If you turtle and build economy early game, you could just get every extractor available to you, and do sweet surrounds. Lings take out thors/marauders, and ultras absorb near infinite damage when upgraded. Another possibility is some drop play with lings to snipe poorly protected expansions, since thors are super immobile. If he sends back hellions/marauders to kill the lings, even better! Kill the thors he leaves behind!
Thors own ultras really hard. I did a test with a friend once where i used 6 ultras vs his 6 thors, and the ultras killed a single thor before they were all dead.
Granted it isn't so black and white as that during a real fight, but you also have to remember that marauders own ultras pretty hard as well. So really, vs this terran composition, ultras are one of the worst units you could make.
Brood lords own this terran army as long as he hasn't made vikings yet. The problem is surviving until you have brood lords.
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On April 18 2010 13:19 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 11:25 uberdeluxe wrote:
This is a tough combo, but what about ling/ultras? If you turtle and build economy early game, you could just get every extractor available to you, and do sweet surrounds. Lings take out thors/marauders, and ultras absorb near infinite damage when upgraded. Another possibility is some drop play with lings to snipe poorly protected expansions, since thors are super immobile. If he sends back hellions/marauders to kill the lings, even better! Kill the thors he leaves behind! Thors own ultras really hard. I did a test with a friend once where i used 6 ultras vs his 6 thors, and the ultras killed a single thor before they were all dead. Granted it isn't so black and white as that during a real fight, but you also have to remember that marauders own ultras pretty hard as well. So really, in any matchup ultras are one of the worst units you could make. Brood lords own this terran army as long as he hasn't made vikings yet. The problem is surviving until you have brood lords.
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I've been playing Terran with this, and damn... I don't even know why a T would EVER go MMM. This build is, in my honest opinion, broken. Here's my analysis for why it will kill anything* Zerg does:
1. Baneling bust: Zerg goes banelings. Competent terrans will see them coming, even if it's 10-15 seconds before the attack. what do they do? well, they have depots and a rax at the ramp. they've also already build a factory for the fast mech. This gets floated over and another depot/bunker get built... and Terran will now survive the baneling swarm (with hellions quickly on the way)
2. Hydraling: throwing lings into a Terran mech ball is foolishness. Hellions with igniter upgrade WILL shred melt them to pieces. Thors proceed to one shot hydras. A couple SCVs thrown in to repair and the thors wont die... trust me. I almost got busted by a hydraling+muta army and was down to my last thor. Rushed over 5 scvs to it and repaired while it took down a remaining 6-8 hydras and a few lings.
3. Mutas: in general are just useless against this. If Terran is allowed to amass 4-5 thors, mutas get ripped apart. As for harassing the terran's main: all I've done is left 1 thor in my base with 1-2 turrets next to it, depending how many mutas Z made. Think of the turrets+thor as a tower defending your entire base. Mutas that go to snipe the thor will have to endure turret pounding. It's just not economical.
4. Mass roaches: most useful when Terran neglects to mass marauders with his mech. Terran is weakest to this while on one base because he can't easily sustain thors AND marauders AND hellions and upgrades. Once Terran takes his nat, however, this becomes less and less viable.
5. Hydra-ling-roach-infestor: The most powerful counter to mech. If army composition is done right, it can fight mech. (Note how I say fight, not beat). If you plan on using infestors to immobilize the thors, get ready to lose them to focus fired marauders. Infestors die weakishly fast and all those resources go to waste once the thors are back online... and proceed to one shot all those expensive hydras.
There are a few more builds Z can try, but really it doesn't matter. Hellions will destroy all lings. Marauders will destroy roaches and hold their own against hydras. Thors will decimate hydras and mutas.
What I BELIEVE Zerg should do (theorycraft)
An immobile army nowadays is a fail army. If zerg sees Terran going mech, I can only imagine Z winning by taking a quick 3rd or even 4th base and simply outmacroing. The most powerful element of mech - the thor - cannot travel across the map (as I write this I'm considering putting thors in medivacs like reavers in BW PvP... If T wises up to this, disregard everything I'm about to say ) and if Terran does move out, surrounding the ball is quite possible. The main strategy with mech is: find zerg army, kill zerg army, kill zerg base. If terran can't easily engage the zerg army, it can't kill your base, and if it can't kill your base(s), it can't stop your macro. Therefore, creep tumor the shit out of the map and stay as mobile as possible.
There are maps like steppes of war where maneuvering everywhere is difficult... I really don't have any advice for that. Like I started, I feel that mech is currently broken. I hope my post/semi-theorycrafting at least helps Zergs know what NOT to do.
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infestor > terran SO badly. mass bio gets raped by fungal and if he goes thor parasite
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On April 18 2010 11:07 BiggestNoobEver wrote:
everyone says outmacro. its not that easy. let me tell u a story. let me begin by saying the terran walled his ramp with 3 supply depot. i did the baneling/ling rush thing and wow was it effective!! it killed all THREE supply depots!!!!! but he got a buncha helions so he survived. I had some extra lings so i decided to baneling bomb his new wall again and it was like dejavu another 3 supply depot gone. a total of 6 supply depot gone. i can't imagine a greater head start. also i had an expo after my first bomb to keep the lead. so its 2 base vs 1 and terran lost 6 depots. With all 4 of my gases up. He also wasted 4 reapers trying to jump my drones but my lings got em easily. He lost 4 reapers while I lost nothing. So im in an even bigger lead. i was really confident and i decided to go mutas to continue the harrass. but thats when i saw his thors. and thats when i decided to switch from mutas to hydras but was already too late. i couldn't pump out enuff hydras to fend off his thors.
Long story short I had the greatest lead in the world but still lost once his instant win thors came. He have 1 expo less than me 6 supply depot short and less scv during midgame and he still won cuz of his thors. Now that I am thinking about it. I coulda make 5-6 infesters instead of hydras and MC his thors instead. But I wouldn’t had the hydras to kill off his marauders and hellions also….so I really don’t know. Those thors can prolly kill my infestors before I can even come in range to MC.
Roaches should be the main counter vs Thors, so I understand it's a bit harsch after patch 8. Also, a decent terran wont use a supply wall vs z cause of the dimaga rush. He will use rax, factory or maybe even starport instead, so those Banelings will have a harder time breaking it.
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@Rice yea you're right i just watched it again i didn't have as big of a head start as i thought. i didn't have enuff drones to keep my 2 bases running fully to take advantage. our income was quite similiar. but it was a head start none the less. i kinda deserved the loss but it was too big of a loss for i didn't even stood a chance once his thors came out. i didnt kill a single one
and imo: Thor is the new goliath which is the anti air for terran. what they need to do is nerf the shit outta thor's ground attack cuz lik the goliath has good AA but weak ass ground attack. 90dmg to ground wow..but the thor @ its current state needs both air and ground nerf but more ground. it almost seems lik thor's ground attack is better than his air atttack. more dmg cept his air can actually splash. as for ultra..it does not work cuz thors can use his special ability and 1 shot the ultras so you basically need at least 2x as many ultras as they do thors which is too expensive.and even without using the special attack like the poster above said thors still > ultras by alot. and definitely make thors easier to die too cuz with a few scv repair it can tank anything. my thor tanked a buncha stalkers + hydras in my 2v2 earlier. lik around 10 units shooting at me and i stilll healed more than they do dmg but i had lik 7 scvs tho lol. as for right now...my conclusion is theres no way to beat the mech build. infestors work but only to delay ur death. thats what i think. so im gonna go back to protoss until they nerf thors but ill continue to test builds with my friend. but im stuck in gold league cuz of zvt. 9/10 loss came from zvt. everytime i rank up a terran comes along and i go back down . so ill rank up as protoss and test zvt builds on custom games. my point: impossible to win zvt
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Has anyone considered upgraded Roaches with burrowed movement?
The biggest problem with mass Roach is the Roach's range. They can have more units shooting at you than you can have shooting back. If you take some Roaches that can't get into the fight and dive under the Terran army, you can pop them up right in the middle. Now you have that many more Roaches that are able to actually contribute to the battle.
You can also use burrowed Roaches like Force Fields that have health, cutting the Terran army in half. Pop them up in the right place, and the Terrans have to walk around or kill the Roaches, which allows your other Roaches to do something useful.
Detection doesn't really stop this. It certainly hurts it, but it doesn't stop it.
Something that might also be considered would be Zergling drops to compliment the Roaches. Once the battle is joined, just drop Zerglings on top of the enemy force.
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Roach hydra. Thors can't deal with roaches (the 2 hits to kill wreaks them), and the maras will be at the front getting owned by hydras. You should be going heavy on roaches (2:1 roach:hydra) so the maras can't break the roach wall before all dying. Once the maras are dead roach hydra will completely roll over any remaining thors. If he lets up on hellions for any reason, chuck in some lings. These wreak thors so badly it's just silly. Adding in a few infestors is always good (MC thors distracts enemy, fungal hellions).
I'm not sure if getting broodlords t3 is a good idea. You'd have to try it out. You don't want broods until you've thoroughly out macro'd him (e.g. you have one base more then him and map control) and want to do the final push, as they're extremely slow and you lose your mobility if you rely on them to kill his army midgame. Surprising him with like 8 broodlords to complete your roach/hydra army when you're ready to kill should be extremely effective though.
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burrow and unburrow on top of the thors don't work cuz theres lag time when unburrowing. the roach don't really shoot right off the bat but they do get hit right away. so its free hits for the terran before your roach will get outta the animation to attack. and yea T3 vs T2.. u must be very way ahead...and its not possible to get t3 units before his thors
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Mass mutas and lings with slow transitioning into broodlords (if he goes vikings make hydras too). The point is to outharass and outmacro the terran. Thors are not that good against mutas if they are not clumped up and they are too slow to keep up with a large number of mutas(one thor in base is not enough). Both lings and mutas are the most mobile units in the game so you basically gain instant map control. All you have to do is prevent the terran from getting his third base (overlords must be placed on every expo) and you will win in the end.
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On April 12 2010 02:22 VereZ wrote:Thors are just coming 15s earlier than previously, it is just that people tend to tech faster to them. What is important to know is that if someone techs hards to Thor, he has a very bad army (only marines almost), so it is easily rushable by a banneling/Zergling. Moreover, T tend to lift off the first barack after making a tech lab, so that the factory gets to thor even faster. If you spot this (sacrifice some zerglings to this), you can destroy the factory that is in front of the wall (since the barrack was in front of the wall). It has 1250 HP I think so you have to send quite a lot of bannelings, but well, if you kill it, it's GG... He would have teched for this for nothing and have something like 6-10 marines?
I really like this idea and it would work into my current ZvT build very well. The main disadvantage that I've seen when terrans use this strategy is it is VERY easy to scout what the Terran is doing (if you have overlords in the right places).
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On April 18 2010 19:35 kme wrote:
Mass mutas and lings with slow transitioning into broodlords (if he goes vikings make hydras too). The point is to outharass and outmacro the terran. Thors are not that good against mutas if they are not clumped up and they are too slow to keep up with a large number of mutas(one thor in base is not enough). Both lings and mutas are the most mobile units in the game so you basically gain instant map control. All you have to do is prevent the terran from getting his third base (overlords must be placed on every expo) and you will win in the end.
What about all-in from 1 base?
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On April 09 2010 07:31 Chill wrote:
This thread seems to me kind of like asking "How do I beat Templar/Colossus/Sentry?". Like there's not going to be one unit that crushes it, you just need to control the game enough that he doesn't get this perfect blob of units. If he does get it, you need to deny expansions and then crash the army over and over until you whittle it down.
The first smart post in this thread.
Pretty much, this is Sc2, a game full of hard counters, where a good unit mix is crucial. There's many other variables that determine victory or defeat; the game doesn't entirely revolve around trying to counter x/y/z units.
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well if he does this lategame broodlord + hydra rox this. then terran needs viking but i think its a fair battle
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Sweden33719 Posts
An immobile army nowadays is a fail army. If zerg sees Terran going mech, I can only imagine Z winning by taking a quick 3rd or even 4th base and simply outmacroing. The most powerful element of mech - the thor - cannot travel across the map (as I write this I'm considering putting thors in medivacs like reavers in BW PvP... If T wises up to this, disregard everything I'm about to say ) and if Terran does move out, surrounding the ball is quite possible. The main strategy with mech is: find zerg army, kill zerg army, kill zerg base. If terran can't easily engage the zerg army, it can't kill your base, and if it can't kill your base(s), it can't stop your macro. Therefore, creep tumor the shit out of the map and stay as mobile as possible.
Yes, you should always have medivacs with your army to save thors, and to do thor drops anyway.
Anyhow, it sounds weird but mass mass mass mass baneling rapes it pretty hard I think (like, 50+ banelings).
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/FrozenArbiter/Replays/TvZ_satsuinohado_banel.sc2replay
I'm not sure how much having more hellions would help, tho I'm sure siege tanks or ravens would. If you make too many hellions pure roach kinda rapes you anyway.
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If the the person has massive marauder and thor/hellion you will want to get roaches/hydra mix and some broodlords. Broodlords will rape the marauders once the thors are down.
Generally you will also want to have more macroed so that u can pump waves of hydra/roach to keep the terran from producing too many units.
There is a replay commentary by HDstarcraft that i have watched today which should help you ( sheth vs Qxc)
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i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick
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Ig he goes for such an army composition it means he is going to be low on gas to get scouts and thus allowing you to research burrow and surprise his army.
Even few burrowed infestors can wreak havok on the terran lines, since terran don't have scouts.
So yeah, the best thing would be to research burrow really early and ambush his army.
The roaches will take the thors damage, while you take control of few thors with the infestors and the zerglings can make short work of the marauders.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 18 2010 20:54 lolreaper wrote:
i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick
Mutas sound stupid vs thors, they die so hard vs them...
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On April 18 2010 20:31 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +An immobile army nowadays is a fail army. If zerg sees Terran going mech, I can only imagine Z winning by taking a quick 3rd or even 4th base and simply outmacroing. The most powerful element of mech - the thor - cannot travel across the map (as I write this I'm considering putting thors in medivacs like reavers in BW PvP... If T wises up to this, disregard everything I'm about to say ) and if Terran does move out, surrounding the ball is quite possible. The main strategy with mech is: find zerg army, kill zerg army, kill zerg base. If terran can't easily engage the zerg army, it can't kill your base, and if it can't kill your base(s), it can't stop your macro. Therefore, creep tumor the shit out of the map and stay as mobile as possible.
Yes, you should always have medivacs with your army to save thors, and to do thor drops anyway. Anyhow, it sounds weird but mass mass mass mass baneling rapes it pretty hard I think (like, 50+ banelings). http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/FrozenArbiter/Replays/TvZ_satsuinohado_banel.sc2replayI'm not sure how much having more hellions would help, tho I'm sure siege tanks or ravens would. If you make too many hellions pure roach kinda rapes you anyway.
I'm curious, how are banelings cost effective against mech? Wouldn't investing all that resources into roach be a better use of money? (1 baneling is almost the cost of a roach, except 25 less minerals). So 50 banelings could get you somewhere around 40 roaches - which is a pretty large army against anything terran has.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gone from 200 to 77 food in 5 seconds if he had roaches ;p
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On April 19 2010 01:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 20:54 lolreaper wrote:
i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick Mutas sound stupid vs thors, they die so hard vs them...
not mass mutas just make few of them, they are stil awsome for map control and stop all kind of drops or viking harasses, also force terran to waste minerals on turrets and delay his push
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On April 19 2010 01:45 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have gone from 200 to 77 food in 5 seconds if he had roaches ;p
Hmm the first time he had 72 banelings.. and they brought your supply down from 200 to 144(something ilke that), then his roaches cleaned up.
The second time your supply dropped from maxed to 70 something, but he had a good number of hydra/roach in there as well.
I wonder what would've happened if you had more hellions rather than marauders though. With 15-20 hellions his banelings wouldn't have even made it to your army, so even if the 15-20 hellions become useless against his roaches, that's still better than 20-30 marauders becoming useless against his banelings.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 19 2010 02:02 lolreaper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 01:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:On April 18 2010 20:54 lolreaper wrote:
i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick Mutas sound stupid vs thors, they die so hard vs them... not mass mutas just make few of them, they are stil awsome for map control and stop all kind of drops or viking harasses, also force terran to waste minerals on turrets and delay his push
Yeah that's good.
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On April 19 2010 01:28 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 20:54 lolreaper wrote:
i usually get mutas lol
muta/bene/ling + roach (depends on his army proportion) is sick Mutas sound stupid vs thors, they die so hard vs them...
Yeah, mutas are definately not the best alternative. In a match I played today I started out with a ling/hydra composition, when I saw he went mech with lots of hellions and tanks I just went mass muta. This owned him at first but when he got his thors out I was screwed.
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It's a lot like mech in TvZ bw. You just need to mass expand and build a shit ton of units with a decently mix of lings,hydras, roaches. (maybe bling drops on the hellions)
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Banelings/roaches can really abuse supply cap.
Roach = 75/25 Marauder = 100/25 Sounds fair marauders beat roaches cost for cost.
Supply = 1........Supply = 2
Pretty sure 2 roaches will beat 1 marauder. (maybe stimmed marauder might win I dunno), certainly roaches beats most other things cost for cost and supply for supply
2 Banelings = 100/50, same as hydra but only 1 supply.
So if you turtle on 200/200 if he masses roach hydra and you have unspent money it's not going to be easy. Banelings also draw a lot of wasted fire since they explode on death thors/marauders are wasting fire on units that are exploding anyway.
I guess siege tanks//ravens are the only real counter to that. Splash damage rapes big armies hard and you need to counter with splash of your own I guess.
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What slayer said ^. I've watched some reps of recent tournaments of zergs going hydra/roach/infestor and they seem to rape terrans going mmm thor still. Zerg is so much easier to macro and they usually are able to get more bases/resources imo. I personally am leaning towards going just roach/hydra although I should throw in some infestors. Roach/Hydra seems so easy, upgrades for attack benefit them both, and the roaches soaking up the damage with the hydras doing so much dps works out well. The mass baneling thing sounds sexy though.
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tanks and ravens are good vs zerg's mass...
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I would make my main force roaches with hydra support. Hydras alone are going to get torn up by the thors who 1-shot them, and the hellions, who roast them 10 at a time. Hydra support is for the marauders who otherwise would force you to bring too many roaches than is necessary.
Invariably you're going to have medivacs to heal the marauders and evacuate the thors when they start getting low. I really think the key to beating them is having some corruptors. The corruptors have a reasonable range (unlike mutalisks) which keeps them a bit further away from the action, and protects them. They also have the advantage of not getting their AI messed up and attacking ground units, they're only going to be on the medivacs all the time. And they're also armored, so they're not taking the bonus damage from thor, plus they have 2 armor, which makes a huge difference for thors, because it absorbs 8 damage per volley. Also, if the Thors are attacking the corruptors, they're not massacring your hydralisks. The corruptors aren't going to have trouble taking the medivacs out like hydras would, and if they try and escape, they can chase them down.
That said, I think the 50+ baneling thing would be awesome just for the hilarity factor.
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So the corrupters kill the medivacs while the rest of your army dies? It's not worth the extra res just to take out the medivacs. Just build lots of roach/hydra. They only have a range of 6 and thor has a range of 9 and they can't hit thors.
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Medivacs stop you from killing the thors by lifting them out when they get low. They also heal about as much damage per second as one hydralisk can do. Corruptors kill the medivacs for less cost than the medivacs cost to produce, since you don't need as many corruptors as he has medivacs, and if they draw fire from the thors they are taking 24 damage every 3 seconds, instead of your hydras taking 90 damage every 1.9 seconds.
Trying to beat MMM straight up without a way to deal with the medivacs is a great way to throw money and units away. Trying to do that with thors in the mix is super stupid.
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Thors will auto target air units first if no melee units are in range so if you bring overlords with your army they will soak up a lot of dmg and the thors will stop unless manually microed up to the front. I do this vs noobs and it works real well, doesn't do anything if they micro properly though. You should have OL's up shitting creep anyways so might as well bring a couple with ur army... thor takes a year and a half to kill an OL btw.
I just played vs an 1800ish T about an hour ago and I opened with speedling/baneling and he rax/fact walled up so I didn't waste my baneling and just contained him... sacrificed an overlord to make sure he wasn't going something gay like 2 port banshees. I made a spire and muta sniped his expo workers. He had a lot of hellion so i backed off and took a third and whe he moved out he had 2 thors a few hellions and several marauder and i did a lot of damage with the pure lings and sniped his expo again w/ the muta. Switched to massive amounts of speed roach/ling 1 infestor for root and ended the game using 1 corruptor to dweb his PF.
I don't think any specific 'unit' is going to win vs hellion/thor/marauder... it's a really nasty combo if you let them get ahead on econ mainly because mass muta is a risk if they bring scv to repair the thors and ling are the closest thing to a hard counter to marauder/thor and in mass hellions gain a huge advantage. You just need to make sure you control the game. Even though hellions (with micro) shit on ling, you can beat hellion w/ ling and not take damage if your econ is stronger which it should be.
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EPT
