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On April 08 2010 05:40 ZidaneTribal wrote:
vikings are pretty damn terrible against tanks, marauders, or any other ground unit. so if your opponent invests too much into them u can completely skip starport tech and just make a bunch of factory/barrack units and overwhelm him. (i lost once by making too many viking and just got 1a'd by tanks)
When I see my opponent going ground only, I add 3 port banshees 
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On April 08 2010 05:46 Floophead_III wrote:
My point is that you should invest in more turrets/expansions, not marines. Marines are completely freaking worthless except in rare circumstances.I'd take tanks vs M&M without dropships all day. The only thing going for M&M in TvT now is mobility with dropships, but vikings shut that down so honestly tank/viking is the way to play TvT.
I would never make vikings in TvT until I see the other guy going BCs or MASSING banshees. If he is doing Viking + Tank, my marine/marauder + Tank army will just roll over his expansions. Even though marines suck, they still deflect a tank shot from hitting my own tanks and with stim can do some mediocre damage back. Marines obviously also rock vikings for cost. His vikings are useless against mine since I have no air units besides a handful of cloaked banshees.
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On April 08 2010 06:35 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:46 Floophead_III wrote:
My point is that you should invest in more turrets/expansions, not marines. Marines are completely freaking worthless except in rare circumstances.I'd take tanks vs M&M without dropships all day. The only thing going for M&M in TvT now is mobility with dropships, but vikings shut that down so honestly tank/viking is the way to play TvT. I would never make vikings in TvT until I see the other guy going BCs or MASSING banshees. If he is doing Viking + Tank, my marine/marauder + Tank army will just roll over his expansions. Even though marines suck, they still deflect a tank shot from hitting my own tanks and with stim can do some mediocre damage back. Marines obviously also rock vikings for cost. His vikings are useless against mine since I have no air units besides a handful of cloaked banshees.
I've had mixed results with pure tank vs tank bio. The big deal is that vikings give me vision which makes my tanks shoot farther, so you take massive losses moving into range. I think it's partially map dependent as well. Maps like LT work out pretty well for pure mech. Maps with backdoors like kulas and sands are not so good, though I think still viable.
Also vikings are great for harassing expos.
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thors aren't really expensive and do well in tvt, in my experience in TvT so far, the rock paper scissor chart looks like
marauders > few tanks
tanks > marines
lots of marines > early banshees
vikings > banshees (obviously)
thors -> vikings (obviously)
mass vikings > battle cruisers
battle cruisers > tank wall / infantry
so to explain that a bit,
i start with tanks and marines
and get some vikings to block banshee timings / back-up tanks
siege and really fucking good positioning to block 2-3 rax marauder stim openings
add another fact for tanks
then if he outviking's me i build thors (from 3 fact)
i push and map grab with tank lines, (enough to contain his economy/pressure him to NOT go battle cruisers)
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On April 08 2010 06:22 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 05:40 ZidaneTribal wrote:
vikings are pretty damn terrible against tanks, marauders, or any other ground unit. so if your opponent invests too much into them u can completely skip starport tech and just make a bunch of factory/barrack units and overwhelm him. (i lost once by making too many viking and just got 1a'd by tanks) When I see my opponent going ground only, I add 3 port banshees
Two or three thors will shoot down all the banshees in the world from a screen and a half away.
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On April 08 2010 05:12 CanT.ThinK.oF wrote:
I think the main idea in tvt is to get as many tanks and vikings as possible, with goods upgrades. However, when u want to defend an expansion against a tank/viking army u can just build a shit load of turrets ( since u should have a lot of minerals in the bank - both tanks and vikings cost a lot of gas ) and position tanks.
ye thats pretty much how tvt works
to be more specific u want only dmg upgrades for tanks while for viking u can upgrade both
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On April 08 2010 06:45 threehundred wrote:
thors aren't really expensive and do well in tvt, in my experience in TvT so far, the rock paper scissor chart looks like
marauders > few tanks
tanks > marines
lots of marines > early banshees
vikings > banshees (obviously)
thors -> vikings (obviously)
mass vikings > battle cruisers
battle cruisers > tank wall / infantry
so to explain that a bit,
i start with tanks and marines
and get some vikings to block banshee timings / back-up tanks
siege and really fucking good positioning to block 2-3 rax marauder stim openings
add another fact for tanks
then if he outviking's me i build thors (from 3 fact)
i push and map grab with tank lines, (enough to contain his economy/pressure him to NOT go battle cruisers)
This is a very very solid game plan. The one thing I do that you dont is use dropships. I use a fleet of dropships (which are easy to make because you have the port + reactor already) and ferry around tanks. It's unreal effective because a lot of players don't know to mass turrets yet. Obviously this is high risk vs viking heavy play. I don't like to do it in that case since usually I can just push him on the ground.
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with the new patch 8, I dont see anything viable except mass reapers for a long while into the game.
I doubt you'll have trouble with mass vikings anymore.
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Ive been opening siege tanks into mass vikings in all my recent tvts with very good success. Once I throw in a few banshees it gives me good map control. I can usually expand pretty easily and deny expansions from the other player. By the time they scout it unless if they are already going air they wont be able to catch up in viking production. If they want to move out they are going to have to use a bunch of scans to kill off banshees and sacrifice units pushing into my tank line.
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oh i dropship alright, but that's only if i don't see him with like 2 reactored starports with vikings everywhere, pretty much after a contain i just work to see what i can do with 2 dropships and harass something so it doesn't get too boring
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yeah you get a sense for loldrops in your main when he still doesn't go tanks and setup 1-2 tanks around your prod facilities with some turrets
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TvT in SC2 sounds so exciting ^_^
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Raven/Viking : Heat seeking missle works well vs clusters of vikings. Deal with the tanks however you please after the air is gone.
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battle cruisers with armor upgrade are very nice if your opponent try to counter your air domination with ground forces. +6 max armor makes a huge difference against thor / marines
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mass banshees.
If seriously, I completely agree with Kruxt, even tho I got no beta key =(
+ Show Spoiler +Give me a beta key, please! Anyone :S?
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usually i open with 3 port vikings (1 with reactor) and switch to mass marauder after some harass (blocking banshees), because most people just try to build more vikings and vikings get so hard owned by stimed marauders. if he has tanks i just send always 3-4 marauders during the fights in his postion (like single goons in PvP vs reavers, dunno how to explain it better)
the only thing i hate is on maps like desert oasis or lt kids lift their CC and grab an island and you cant kill it untill you have again more airunits then him. so fucking anyoing...
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You always need some vikings for map control and vision for the tanks. They also serve as a pre-emptive counter to banshee's and BC's. Really massing them is pretty useless though as you can easily beat vikings/banshees with vikings/thors.
For the rest tanks are the to go unit. Marauders are usually the best mineral outlet along with more expo's and turrets. Marauders aren't a strictly mineral outlet but are 1:4 m:g so are decent, marines are pretty useless after a certain point as armor upgrades almost completely nullify them (and you don't want to be upgrading bio besides stim and shells).
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mass tank. who cares if he get sky.
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On April 08 2010 05:04 3D.Strelok wrote:
What is the best counter to mass vikings + few tanks on defence thing? In starcraft1 it was goliaphs + tanks, but thors seem to be too expensive and hella slow... Any other ideas?
basically tank and viking is the ideal combo in tvt. as soon as u get high number enough of it there is no counter to it
if he just got a few tanks in the midgame and rest viking u can bust through with marauders, but ofcourse this has to be a surprise to ur oppo because if u see ur oppo going heavy on ground u can just add a few more tank
another way of countering it is by making more vikings than him and adding 1-2 banshees. if he builds lets say 4 tanks and rest viking then the banshee is gonna be alot cheaper but still force an aerial battle
tvt lategame when map is cut in half is all about getting the highest amount of vikings from what ive seen. but then again if u get too many viking and few tank he can just go ground with all viking and roll u over even if ur in siege mode, this is when u need a few banshee to force him to lift viking as i said earlier ^^
the reason tank+viking is the best combo because siege tanks mashes all ground once u get high enough number, and then the only way u can crush it is by using banshee and thats where the viking comes in. thors cant do shit in tvt unless u wanna break a massviking+few tank with pure ground in a surprise attack
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Personally, I don't like making thors TvT as they are just so immobile. Just try to focus on making even MORE vikings then him and drop the amount of tanks you are making until you know you have an air advantage.
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EPT
