EPTTvT mass vikings counter
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Strelok
Ukraine320 Posts
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duckhunt
Canada311 Posts
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duckhunt
Canada311 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Another option is to just mass marauder and kill him. If he's not super careful with his tank placement you can steamroll him with marauders, and vikings aren't very useful vs them. If he is smart and got +1 on his tanks and is careful with his placement, going marauders can screw you over. Also, if he switches up to mass banshee and you miss your timing window you will lose because you don't have the factories to make thors you need for map control. | ||
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Splendour
Bulgaria129 Posts
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:16 link0 wrote: I actually don't find vikings to be useful at all in TvT until I need to counter BC's. Vikings are only there to protect Banshees. Marines and a Thor or two (to stop banshee kiting) still stomp a banshee/viking army. The OP is complaining about viking/tank, not viking/banshee. Marines are god awful vs tanks. Do not make marines in TvT if you can help it. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
IMO. | ||
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ZidaneTribal
United States2800 Posts
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:24 Floophead_III wrote: The OP is complaining about viking/tank, not viking/banshee. Marines are god awful vs tanks. Do not make marines in TvT if you can help it. My point was that viking + banshee isn't a very strong strategy in TvT on most maps. And, why wouldn't you make marines? Sure tanks rape them, but tanks cost almost a 1:1 mineral/gas ratio. You need to build something with the excess. If they are going pure tanks, I'll build some marauders too. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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Strelok
Ukraine320 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:40 ZidaneTribal wrote: vikings are pretty damn terrible against tanks, marauders, or any other ground unit. so if your opponent invests too much into them u can completely skip starport tech and just make a bunch of factory/barrack units and overwhelm him. (i lost once by making too many viking and just got 1a'd by tanks) If i skip starport tech - the opponent will ofc make banshee, not mass vikings. | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:49 3D.Strelok wrote: If i skip starport tech - the opponent will ofc make banshee, not mass vikings. Or he can just camp the map and start making battle cruisers, which you then need to get vikings to kill, and he already has too many vikings so you will lose. I seriously hate the fact that the only counter to the air is another air, it's stupid as hell. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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DoomBacon
United States165 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Of course, it can be quite difficult to stop him from taking island expansions, so obviously viking to BC works better on some maps than others. | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:25 FrozenArbiter wrote: Thors, and get point defense drones if he has any marauders or thors of his own. IMO. PDD also blocks viking shots :p | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:40 ZidaneTribal wrote: vikings are pretty damn terrible against tanks, marauders, or any other ground unit. so if your opponent invests too much into them u can completely skip starport tech and just make a bunch of factory/barrack units and overwhelm him. (i lost once by making too many viking and just got 1a'd by tanks) When I see my opponent going ground only, I add 3 port banshees  | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:46 Floophead_III wrote: My point is that you should invest in more turrets/expansions, not marines. Marines are completely freaking worthless except in rare circumstances.I'd take tanks vs M&M without dropships all day. The only thing going for M&M in TvT now is mobility with dropships, but vikings shut that down so honestly tank/viking is the way to play TvT. I would never make vikings in TvT until I see the other guy going BCs or MASSING banshees. If he is doing Viking + Tank, my marine/marauder + Tank army will just roll over his expansions. Even though marines suck, they still deflect a tank shot from hitting my own tanks and with stim can do some mediocre damage back. Marines obviously also rock vikings for cost. His vikings are useless against mine since I have no air units besides a handful of cloaked banshees. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 08 2010 06:35 link0 wrote: I would never make vikings in TvT until I see the other guy going BCs or MASSING banshees. If he is doing Viking + Tank, my marine/marauder + Tank army will just roll over his expansions. Even though marines suck, they still deflect a tank shot from hitting my own tanks and with stim can do some mediocre damage back. Marines obviously also rock vikings for cost. His vikings are useless against mine since I have no air units besides a handful of cloaked banshees. I've had mixed results with pure tank vs tank bio. The big deal is that vikings give me vision which makes my tanks shoot farther, so you take massive losses moving into range. I think it's partially map dependent as well. Maps like LT work out pretty well for pure mech. Maps with backdoors like kulas and sands are not so good, though I think still viable. Also vikings are great for harassing expos. | ||
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
marauders > few tanks tanks > marines lots of marines > early banshees vikings > banshees (obviously) thors -> vikings (obviously) mass vikings > battle cruisers battle cruisers > tank wall / infantry so to explain that a bit, i start with tanks and marines and get some vikings to block banshee timings / back-up tanks siege and really fucking good positioning to block 2-3 rax marauder stim openings add another fact for tanks then if he outviking's me i build thors (from 3 fact) i push and map grab with tank lines, (enough to contain his economy/pressure him to NOT go battle cruisers) | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
On April 08 2010 06:22 G.s)NarutO wrote: When I see my opponent going ground only, I add 3 port banshees Two or three thors will shoot down all the banshees in the world from a screen and a half away. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:12 CanT.ThinK.oF wrote: I think the main idea in tvt is to get as many tanks and vikings as possible, with goods upgrades. However, when u want to defend an expansion against a tank/viking army u can just build a shit load of turrets ( since u should have a lot of minerals in the bank - both tanks and vikings cost a lot of gas ) and position tanks. ye thats pretty much how tvt works to be more specific u want only dmg upgrades for tanks while for viking u can upgrade both | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 08 2010 06:45 threehundred wrote: thors aren't really expensive and do well in tvt, in my experience in TvT so far, the rock paper scissor chart looks like marauders > few tanks tanks > marines lots of marines > early banshees vikings > banshees (obviously) thors -> vikings (obviously) mass vikings > battle cruisers battle cruisers > tank wall / infantry so to explain that a bit, i start with tanks and marines and get some vikings to block banshee timings / back-up tanks siege and really fucking good positioning to block 2-3 rax marauder stim openings add another fact for tanks then if he outviking's me i build thors (from 3 fact) i push and map grab with tank lines, (enough to contain his economy/pressure him to NOT go battle cruisers) This is a very very solid game plan. The one thing I do that you dont is use dropships. I use a fleet of dropships (which are easy to make because you have the port + reactor already) and ferry around tanks. It's unreal effective because a lot of players don't know to mass turrets yet. Obviously this is high risk vs viking heavy play. I don't like to do it in that case since usually I can just push him on the ground. | ||
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Fallen
Canada192 Posts
I doubt you'll have trouble with mass vikings anymore. | ||
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xxjondxx
United States89 Posts
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Kruxt
United States113 Posts
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yanot
France130 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
If seriously, I completely agree with Kruxt, even tho I got no beta key =( + Show Spoiler + Give me a beta key, please! Anyone :S? | ||
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
the only thing i hate is on maps like desert oasis or lt kids lift their CC and grab an island and you cant kill it untill you have again more airunits then him. so fucking anyoing... | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
For the rest tanks are the to go unit. Marauders are usually the best mineral outlet along with more expo's and turrets. Marauders aren't a strictly mineral outlet but are 1:4 m:g so are decent, marines are pretty useless after a certain point as armor upgrades almost completely nullify them (and you don't want to be upgrading bio besides stim and shells). | ||
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huun
Turkey58 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:04 3D.Strelok wrote: What is the best counter to mass vikings + few tanks on defence thing? In starcraft1 it was goliaphs + tanks, but thors seem to be too expensive and hella slow... Any other ideas? basically tank and viking is the ideal combo in tvt. as soon as u get high number enough of it there is no counter to it if he just got a few tanks in the midgame and rest viking u can bust through with marauders, but ofcourse this has to be a surprise to ur oppo because if u see ur oppo going heavy on ground u can just add a few more tank another way of countering it is by making more vikings than him and adding 1-2 banshees. if he builds lets say 4 tanks and rest viking then the banshee is gonna be alot cheaper but still force an aerial battle tvt lategame when map is cut in half is all about getting the highest amount of vikings from what ive seen. but then again if u get too many viking and few tank he can just go ground with all viking and roll u over even if ur in siege mode, this is when u need a few banshee to force him to lift viking as i said earlier ^^ the reason tank+viking is the best combo because siege tanks mashes all ground once u get high enough number, and then the only way u can crush it is by using banshee and thats where the viking comes in. thors cant do shit in tvt unless u wanna break a massviking+few tank with pure ground in a surprise attack | ||
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ThisIsJimmy
United States546 Posts
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On April 08 2010 05:04 3D.Strelok wrote: What is the best counter to mass vikings + few tanks on defence thing? In starcraft1 it was goliaphs + tanks, but thors seem to be too expensive and hella slow... Any other ideas? If he overspends on viking or banshee and not enough tank, Thor marauder and enough scans can break that. If not, you can expand faster than him and deny expos with good positioning. | ||
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kme
Serbia176 Posts
I couldn't threaten him with air as he kept making vikings and because of them he had vision for tanks while I did not. I had some thors and marines, but they were slowly failing to slow tank push and at one point he just landed his vikings in my group of tanks and it was pretty much gg. He was also able to easily take my expo as you cannot position your tanks that well. The best solution would probably be to go tanks + some vikings/thors/turrets in your main, and then try to harass your opponent with sneaked out MM or thor drops. This should hopefully provide you with some map control as tanks are very immobile and vikings are bad against marines/thors. | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
Just like in BW where terran players floated the ebay/rax infront of their army to gain vision in TvT | ||
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The Terminator
Australia46 Posts
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NightToad
60 Posts
The big deal is that vikings give me vision which makes my tanks shoot farther, so you take massive losses moving into range +1 Dealing with tank inching/air control is extremely frustrating when you are behind on vikings. I haven't played since the latest patch, but it sounds like the Thor change has somewhat alleviated this. | ||
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platonichate
Canada26 Posts
The other thing that was used was turret spamming in clumps of 4 or so around the map. Banshees were able to rip em apart pretty quick but in a couple of instances they paid for themselves as the air player would be retreating and stumble in the range of one of these clumps and loose a BC here, or a few vikings there. The PDD was used a few times, and while it is effective it just seemed that as soon as it went down the air only player backed off and waited for it to dissapate.. I think the key with PDD's is laying them down after the opponent has fully engaged to the battle and it is raging on. Timing on those things is perfect, you lay them out too early and your opponent is just going to back off out of their range.. But wait until the fight is hot enough and suddenly two or 3 of those things spells disaster once the battle is in full swing | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Keep marines behind marauders. Stim marauders, move in and snipe the tanks. Once tanks are gone, your marines should be able to deal with banshees. Ravens are there to use PDD to help your vikings win in viking v viking battles, or to help your vikings snipe his banshees. Either way once his banshees are gone marauders will destroy tank + viking. If you win a battle, destroy his starports ASAP to prevent more banshees. Of course if he's turtling, you should expand -> outmacro him & simply have more vikings than him. This is what works for me at plat level 1500-1600, you are a top EU terran, so I'm sure you play at level above me | ||
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QueueQueue
Canada1000 Posts
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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