|
On April 07 2010 07:29 onmach wrote:
My dirty little secret is that I've been going ultra every game that reaches hive (not zvz). And I've won every single one (where I've spawned at least one ultra). That generally only happens with protoss, but I've been meaning to try it with terran more often.
Against protoss what usually happens is they see I'm not going muta, so they throw down a robo or two, and start pumping collosus because those chew up roaches and hydras. But the problem is that collosus are ass against ultra ling. They can kill lings, but ultras are fast enough to chase them around and they take a lot of hits, and when they are almost dead, I just micro them out or even back to my natural for healing, so they don't even get the satisfaction. Spawns half a dozen immortals? They'll be lucky to get a single kill before they are swamped by lings.
I think the problem is that no one is getting them early and no one is ever upgrading them at all. Everyone loves spending 1200 gas on mutas, but I'd rather have 6 ultras than 12 mutas, personally. Getting 3 ultras 20 minutes into the game when there your opponent is +3 and there are 60 marauders on the field is pointless. But if you get a couple early, it can swing the battle really fast in your direction because they'll rip through all gateway units and assist greatly taking out medium infantry as well.
So usually what I do is get hive, and immediately get +1/+1 (I don't bother with range), by the time the first ultra pops out I'll be nearly +2/+4 and I'll have adrenal and speed for zergilngs. Then I just run over everything. So what if they focus my ultras, that just lets the lings lay waste to everything.
Edit: I should also say that I was an ultra hater a few weeks ago but now I'm converted, at least in the ZvP matchup.
A good protoss will:
1) SCOUT, and knew whats coming.
2) Insta spawn 4/5 sentries from his warpgates and with a proper use of forcefields you can as well as dance with your ultralisks, since thanks to their size, they can be blocked so easy it makes them useless.
Not to mention that teching to hive and making that many upgrade will leave you vurenable to protoss pushes so much that a decent player will win game 3 times by that time u have ultralisks.
|
ive had some guy actually complain about ultralisk balance in a recent game of mine, im 7th place gold atm in case you wonder (dont know opponents rank - he was protoss trying to take out my hydra/lings with storm/sentry/zeal while i teched to hive and got some of those ultrababys).
tried same shit vs terran - lost in 5 seks battle to stimmed marauders (even had the infestor to put them in place t_t).
Conclusion: Ultralisk suck any decent oponent will run over you before you get them out or just obliterate them while you have nearly no other gas unit. Want to see burrowed ultralisk ambush though^^
|
On April 07 2010 05:53 Killmour wrote:
Honestly the Ultra should be able to have lings walk under it, kinda like how units can walk under the colossus.
Ultra/ling would be a great meat shield/damage dealer but most of the time, the few ultras you actually make, spend most of their time running around like idiots trying to find a place to hit units.
Yeah, that would be epic and make Ultra-Ling not an AI cluster fail though blings would be painful. In fact it would be nice for small units(marines/ghosts/broodlings/zealots) to run under certian units(Colossi/Ultralisk/Thor).
|
Ultralisks need an ability to set them apart. If this is possible something fun to micro, not like all zergs a+click units...
Maybe a charge+effect (like stun) without auto cast. But this would be too much zealot like.
Or a "tank mode" (+armor and regen mb) that make them slower or not able to move.
PLEASE zergs need crucial things to micro + more unit diversity.
|
I have lost a game or two teching to ultra, but I'm serious when I say that it's not really all that risky. Hive, cavern, ultra. It takes about a minute and a half, and all you have to do is defend. It is faster than brood lords, and yes I'll say it. I like ultralisks more than brood lords.
Sentries should be a problem, but they never seem to be. Sure a few forcefields go down, but it doesn't work any better than if I were going roach. Taking ramps is hard, but really most ramps aren't worth taking. I suggest some of you who are adamant that ultras suck try them sometimes (with upgrades) and I think you'll be surprised.
|
Ultralisks obviously need a "Trample" ability, that allows them to squash small units... such as MM, zealots and zerglings. ^^
|
Allow ultras to walk over units with a small size, so it wont bug that often.
Decrease the size of ultras a bit.
Buff lings a tiny bit.
I think that would be a lot better already. The whole problem with ultras is twofold: 1. roach+hydra+BL are all much much better and needed in midgame to even survive. 2. ultras bug bigtime when it comes to pathing, you cant even get 2 next to each other at all.. a simple rine holds him up easily, while with its posture it should be able to just stamp on it.
I dont think unit diversity should be put into the ultras (yes literally), rather it should get its rightful place in the Z arsenal and an additional different unit should be added (in special, a unit that actually has a bonus vs armored, which Z only has for AvA and static defense spine crawler). So, get back lurker plz.
|
The pathetic 20 damage is full front-splash damage. so it's a pretty beastly support unit. too bad it's too slow, i think that's the only problem. And yeah it sucks without upgrades, but how often do you get to hive tech without at least 1/2?
|
On April 07 2010 07:48 HubertFelix wrote:
Ultralisks need an ability to set them apart. If this is possible something fun to micro, not like all zergs a+click units...
Maybe a charge+effect (like stun) without auto cast. But this would be too much zealot like.
Or a "tank mode" (+armor and regen mb) that make them slower or not able to move.
PLEASE zergs need crucial things to micro + more unit diversity.
Yeah, roaches/hydras aren't about that either nor are mutalisks, broodlords. You have to face it as of right now Zerg lack diversity and abilities on units. It has been always like this from SC1 (exception would be the actual casting unit.)
|
I feel like if I am able to get an ample amount of nicely upgraded (at least 1-2 upgrades) ultras, I feel like I have either A. Won the game already. or B. Could have spent those minerals/gas elsewhere, like in higher upgrades for my hydra/roach/ling/baneling/infestors or just had a more massive army without the ultras and my army would have been better off than having ultras. I don't feel like ultras are filling the role they should like they did in SC1, there are so many armor piercing units that they just get slaughtered if focused correctly, and not like in SC1 where yeah they could be blown to shreds but they still tanked for more than .5 to 1 second tops when focused. Just my 2 cents...
Edit: They are also way too big compared to other units and they usually end up losing 50-75% of their hp before they can even get a few hits in. On top of that a good protoss with the use of 2-3 sentries can set down a few well placed forcefields completely negating every ultralisk for the duration.
|
Lots of underused units in SC2 not suffer so much from directly sucking but more so because they are not part of a good strategy.
Hydra/roach seems superior for zerg in most matchups and go well with range upgrades first and then carapace. Ultra's requiring hive tech and heavy gas makes them a unit you get lategame at which they somewhat suck as they won't have attack upgrades.
The underlying problem here lies in that zerg melee (ultra + ling) is basically inferior to hydra+roach in every matchup.
Personally I think ultra's can definately see some more play then they do now if zerg would play a bit more varied, nevertheless a slight buff is also in order.
Probably one of the ultralisk upgrades should be automatically given to them, they are basically the only unit that requires 2 upgrades for them to be effective (other units that can get 2 don't depend on the 2nd one so much like templar). They should probably get the speed tech for free.
It's pathing can also be improved by either just reducing the size or making it like a colossus in that it walks over units and sentry fields (but not cliffs).
|
On April 07 2010 06:47 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:53 SevenAteNine wrote:
no mention of ultras splash damage or their ability to headbutt buildings? ultras and extremly effective vs zealots lings and marine comps
[...]
I would really consider getting ultras vs a protoss who seems to be favoring heavv zealot play Really? You'd consider getting Ultras vs all these Protosses who favor mass Zealots? How many are that. 1 in 1000000 in Copper League?
If your facing a protoss who favors High Templar they will be force to make zealots, thats when i pull out the ultras.
Never said it was all the time but really roach/hydra comp is really solid, zerg dosnt NEED ultras aslong as roach/hydra does so well
Edit: Also as a possible buff to ultras let them be able to walk over small units and make zerglings and broodlings be small units this would disable part of ultras pathing issue and give having high melee upgrade better synergy
|
On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
Lets discuss ultralisk
From what i seen and my experience noone actually uses ultras even late game. And there is thouthands of reasons why:
1) its Hive tech. Once you get hive tech, why no to make BL instead?
2) Ultra is VERY big. little less than thor. Are you ready for such big ass?
3) Ultra deals pathetic 20dmg. Well maybe he attacks once per every 0,6 seconds or so, its not too bad, but definately not too much something over exciting. I believe 4 zerligns can deal more dps than 1 ultra
Even with buildings his 60 attack cant be much comparedto Immortal
4) He is tankish, thats good. 600 hp its like battlecruiser; same goes for armor. he can survive lots of marines.
But who uses marines that much?
another, and maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
5) without upogrades he is really LOL, i think even maradeurs can kite him?
so only use for him "in paper" is just a some meat shield instead/with roachers to take out some zealotos or ltake 2-3 shoots from M&M balls while your hydras killing enemies.
whats your opinions? have you tried this guy and it worked good for you?
//my rank is ~60 plat at the moment.
Uhmm... I just gotta say Ultra's did 20 Dmg in SCBW and now they have splash.
|
First of all, not every game is pure roach/hydra. Especially against a marauder heavy Terran, hydra/ling or muta/ling works much better than roach/hydra. When you are running a midgame army with lots of zerglings, Hive upgrade is worth just for Cracklings. While it's weaker than in SC1, the Crackling upgrade is still significant in that it allows lings to beat equal-food equal-upgrade zealots.
When you enter tier-3 with a Melee upgrade or two, there's really no reason not to get Ultras. The ultra's cleave radius is HUGE, it is comparable to the Colossus. While an ultra does 18 damage compared to the colossus's 20x2, the ultra attacks more than twice as fast. If the enemy units are unable to run away, one Ultralisk will actually do more DPS than one Colossus. Note that both units are 300/200/6.
Compared to a colossus, the ultralisk is melee (big disadvantage) and can't climb cliffs, but has twice the HP and can't get cheesed by Corruptors/Vikings. More importantly, the rate at which you can spawn Ultras is limited only by your economy. (unlike Colossus where it is really not practical to build that many robotics facilities) When you are ahead by a base or two, the ultra is a great way to turn economy directly into ownage and end the game.
|
On April 07 2010 08:37 Nub4ever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
Lets discuss ultralisk
From what i seen and my experience noone actually uses ultras even late game. And there is thouthands of reasons why:
1) its Hive tech. Once you get hive tech, why no to make BL instead?
2) Ultra is VERY big. little less than thor. Are you ready for such big ass?
3) Ultra deals pathetic 20dmg. Well maybe he attacks once per every 0,6 seconds or so, its not too bad, but definately not too much something over exciting. I believe 4 zerligns can deal more dps than 1 ultra
Even with buildings his 60 attack cant be much comparedto Immortal
4) He is tankish, thats good. 600 hp its like battlecruiser; same goes for armor. he can survive lots of marines.
But who uses marines that much?
another, and maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
5) without upogrades he is really LOL, i think even maradeurs can kite him?
so only use for him "in paper" is just a some meat shield instead/with roachers to take out some zealotos or ltake 2-3 shoots from M&M balls while your hydras killing enemies.
whats your opinions? have you tried this guy and it worked good for you?
//my rank is ~60 plat at the moment. Uhmm... I just gotta say Ultra's did 20 Dmg in SCBW and now they have splash.
This is no longer Sc:Bw, so stop thinking in that manner.
|
do ultralisk require 4 population or 6?
|
On April 07 2010 07:32 arnold(soTa) wrote:
ultras are fine, stop tinkering with parts of the game that work and go fix the broken shit instead... there are loads
I smell a troll.
|
if you want to fix it you'll need to find some advantage for late game melee units and a plausible mid-game melee transition or a mid-game ranged transition that doesnt rely on evo upgrades (ie lurker). the current possible transitions into ultras are hydras and mutas and infestors, non of which are beneficial towards an ultra tech switch in any way (except infestors, but they dont do enough to count)
|
On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
another, and maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
This is the only problem I have with Ultras. Its not that Ultras are bad. They are just fine. Its that SC2 has too much +bonus vs armored. Mauraders, immortals in particular make ultras worthless.
EDIT: actually, reading other posts, it IS true that ultras alone suck bad, but are pretty decent combined with lings. Ultras will destroy most ground stuff (especially P) and when you get to the immortals, pull back and sick 30 lings on them. I did that in 1 game so far and it worked pretty good.
I still don't like all the super strong +dam vs armored in SC2, but ultras aren't all that bad even as it is.
I DO wish that ultras could run faster. As a melee unit, the ability to close on a unit would be nice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
