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On April 08 2010 20:49 onmach wrote:
I just beat two more gold players last night with ultras, and I only played three games. You guys are really missing out.
And I can beat platinum players with just zerglings, whats your point? (I'm not even good at starcraft >< )
Yes ultras are "alright" and you can win games while you make them. Thats not the problem, the problem is that they're MUCH inferior than broodlords in every plausible scenarios. =/
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Considering how the roach is being nerfed into the ground (hah burrowed roach joke) it may be more viable to get the ultra with patch 8...but still there is the question of why would you get it over the broodlord?
Three things would make me seriously consider the ultra as a viable alternative to the brood lord.
1) Slightly less cost. Perhaps 50 gas cheaper is all that would do it.
2) Colossus pathing over small units, not cliff walking, just the ability to path over lings/rines etc.
3) Its den upgrades being researched a bit faster. Again not going overboard but slighty adjusted timing on the armor and speed upgrade could really bring these heavies into the game viably
I am not saying all 3 things mind you, any of the 3 could really make a zerg consider using them over a brood lord.
The real problem is overlap.
A zerg can make a ton of corrupters, clear the air, go brood lords and counter exactly what the ultra is made to counter. Meanwhile lords being flyers dont have any of the pathing issues of the ultra. You can migrate to them from t2 much more viably because of the muta tech path and cost wise they pan out better.
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Agree with Synwave, maybe dropping the supply to 5 would help too, the unit idea is great, its just not polished enough to be pratical.
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What do you want? Ultras on tier 2 with full upgrades? Ultras are fine as damage taker like it was in SC1 and cracklings dealing the real damage. And btw just because some people don't use them doesn't mean they are useless. The game will evolve.
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On April 08 2010 22:07 HTX wrote:
What do you want? Ultras on tier 2 with full upgrades? Ultras are fine as damage taker like it was in SC1 and cracklings dealing the real damage. And btw just because some people don't use them doesn't mean they are useless. The game will evolve.
But nobody ever use them. I literally saw no ultralisk in all the games I played or watched beside maybe in the first few weeks of beta.
Their role overlap with broodlords, and broodlords are much better.
In SC1 ultralisks could tank better because SC1 didn't have immortals, marauders or thors.
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hummm someone mentioned fungal growth... that might actually be the key since it completely inhibits movement *scratch sorry-excuse-of-a-beard*
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On April 07 2010 05:23 Gretorp wrote:
just want to add:
ultra counters masses of ravens very well, since marauder count is low and hsm don't do nearly as much damage. I've learned not to mass so many ravens else i will get runover TT
Why would you mass ravens??
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Just out of curiousity how imbalanced would the game get if the Ultralisk got the Roach's regeneration and the Roach got the Ultralisk's splash damage? If that makes it to imbalanced I always imagine Ultralisks having a stim pack+plague type ability. Activate it and it increases attack speed and movement speed permanently but you continuously lose life. Could be fun~
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On April 08 2010 22:15 Thamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 22:07 HTX wrote:
What do you want? Ultras on tier 2 with full upgrades? Ultras are fine as damage taker like it was in SC1 and cracklings dealing the real damage. And btw just because some people don't use them doesn't mean they are useless. The game will evolve. But nobody ever use them. I literally saw no ultralisk in all the games I played or watched beside maybe in the first few weeks of beta. Their role overlap with broodlords, and broodlords are much better. In SC1 ultralisks could tank better because SC1 didn't have immortals, marauders or thors.
Agree with the overlapping issue. But like you said they are not used because of broodlords, so ultras are not the source of pain here. And the immo/mara/roach point isn't valid because ultras were used a lot vs siege tanks in sc1 despite the siege splash damage.
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Tbh I never played broodwar, but I doubt that siege tanks were doing 34 DPS to the ultralisk... (Thats immortals to ultralisks). Beside, its not the same game at all aniway.
Theres two way of looking at it. The broodlord is too good so the ultralisk is useless, or the ultralisk is too bad to measure up to the broodlord. Since we rarely see broodlords in most games aniway, I'd go for the later. But ether way, theres a problem which require attention.
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Whenever there's a discussion about tweaking a unit, everybody seems to lament about Armor. Increase armor, reduce armors etc. But that polarizes the unit's effectiveness - it becomes totally different vs low damage units and high damage units.
So, why not just increase the plain old HEALTH points? That makes them equally stronger against everything.
Make ultra 1000HP and increase the speed a tad and see how that works.
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Ultralisk and broodlord serve the same role: an anti-ground unit that helps push/break defenses through tanking and dps.
Broodlord acts like a tank because of the spawns, ultralisk acts like a tank but less so because of its vulnerability to immortal and marauder.
Increase the speed of ulltralisks so they can accompany lings, and rebalance them to fit this role. That would distinguish them from the slow moving broodlod pusher.
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IMO the main use of Ultras is not really to fight opposing armies, but rather to serve as the ultimate base harrassers / demolishers. I remember seeing a video with three Ultras (delivered by a Nydus, but a drop would work too) demolishing some buildings very fast. They even jumped back into the Nydus and got out alive. The "instant Nydus delivery" and the increased damage against buildings are their two main advantages over Brood Lords (plus lower cost by 50 gas and more hit points) and they should be usd accordingly.
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I might have a couple suggestions, but before that i specify clearly that i DO NOT own a beta key although I already preordered SC2, and i cannot tell how some units behave, my experience being only what i have seen on youtube, streams, etc.
i also played SC2 against the AI cpl of times, but i realise that is zero to multiplayer game experience
Suggestion 1
The problem with ultralisk is that they are massive and slow, expensive and can be easily killed and therefore countered. This reminds me of a certain orc unit from Warcraft 3.
Ultralisks can receive a passive or active buff that makes all nearby allied units in a certain radius receive and atack bonus? Well, make it a defense bonus or something.
Well the point is that the ability can be a buff/debuff and can be active/passive. The ability can be researchable, so it would be more logical to get it.
Suggestion 2
Ultralisk can have a blink-like ability, also researchable or not, in which they can leap short distances. This way you can land your Ultras in the middle of the enemy force and cause some havoc. It is more logical for a melee unit to have the ability to get fast near an opponent than a melee one
Suggestion 3
similarly to suggestion1, ultralisk can receive and ability with aoe. they stomp their large feet on the ground and can silence or stun enemy targets for a short period of time. (silence means no skill usage)
Just think about it : silenced MMM , no stim, no healing, no HSM for Ravens, now that is a solid reason to make ultras
Also if you think it's OP, only ground units might be affected, or only biological (they get scared) something like that
NOTE
- these are just suggestions, so don't start calling me idiot or moron.
- there aren't any specific values, so modifications and suggestions are always welcome
- the above suggestion are made taking into consideration the sentry force-field ability and the terran MMM ball.
- i hope Blizz employees see this and do something for patch 9
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^ I really like the first suggestion. But its hard to incorporate it into zergs... You can't really have a "morale boost" kind of expanation because of how the zergs are with the overmind and all... Its really a lore problem there I think.
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On April 08 2010 23:52 Thamoo wrote:
^ I really like the first suggestion. But its hard to incorporate it into zergs... You can't really have a "morale boost" kind of expanation because of how the zergs are with the overmind and all... Its really a lore problem there I think.
well, about the lore ..... obviously zerglings have no morale,
make the ability something like:
Ultralisks have huge backs, they can have some pores on their backs, they can receive a gland which can secrete a certain liquid. When he sprays nearby allied units with the liquid from that gland, the become more agressive.
Of course, what I stated above can have some PIMPASS name, but this is up to the developers.
This can be a viable workaround from the lore perspective. I am sure with enough imagination, a sci-fi strategy game can receive plausible explanation to why a certain ability works in a certain way
Lore, really is the slightest impediment, the no1 priority is really think if certain ability is not overpowered and if it can be implemented in the actual game
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^ I agree with this, would love to see it implemented!
Another fix I haven't saw is to simply decrease the ultralisk CAVERN gaz cost. Thing is ultralisks are too big to be massed and required alot of upgrades to be efficient... You don't wanna spend close to 1000gaz (cavern, both upgrades, melee upgrades...) on a unit you want 3-4 at most.
The idea would be to make the ultralisk a bonus, instead of a "goal" unit. You got to hive? Here, have some cheap ultralisks to flank with.
Why not make the cavern 300 mineral instead of 150/200? That way when you do get hive (rare) you can spend the excess minerals zerg always seem to have into getting some support ultras easily. And if you do want to "mass" them for some reasons, you can then invests in the upgrades and start massing them and their 200G/unit.
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turn the ultralisk into a ground based zergling carrier where it sends lings out to attack, give a command to make them return and heal inside the ultra,  P
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On April 08 2010 22:32 DarthHalo2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:23 Gretorp wrote:
just want to add:
ultra counters masses of ravens very well, since marauder count is low and hsm don't do nearly as much damage. I've learned not to mass so many ravens else i will get runover TT Why would you mass ravens??
Because i'm bad..
I mean massing marine marauders ofc, and putting the majority of your end game gas to ravens. Not just going ravens :-P
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In every game I've played I've NEVER had Ultralisks play an effective role within my strategy.
There usually are two different scenarios:
A. Either I've won with Ultras because I was way ahead of my opponent and could've won the game in many different ways but I picked Ultras for shits n giggles.
B. I lose the game because they're way too expensive for what they're worth due to all the reasons already mentioned in this thread.
And to all people saying they're great vs tier 1 units and people have to learn how to use the ultralisk: Yes, nobody disagrees that they're extremely awesome vs Tier 1 units, but unfortunately in the games I play my opponents don't go mass marines in late game where I'm building ultra's or have 3 full groups of roach/hydra/infestors waiting for them. I've also been very unlucky to never have had a Protoss opponent build Zealots against me without other unit support and I've never seen an Ultra in ZvZ.
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EPT
