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Russian Federation81 Posts
Lets discuss ultralisk
From what i seen and my experience noone actually uses ultras even late game. And there is thouthands of reasons why:
1) its Hive tech. Once you get hive tech, why no to make BL instead?
2) Ultra is VERY big. little less than thor. Are you ready for such big ass?
3) Ultra deals pathetic 20dmg. Well maybe he attacks once per every 0,6 seconds or so, its not too bad, but definately not too much something over exciting. I believe 4 zerligns can deal more dps than 1 ultra
Even with buildings his 60 attack cant be much comparedto Immortal
4) He is tankish, thats good. 600 hp its like battlecruiser; same goes for armor. he can survive lots of marines.
But who uses marines that much?
another, and maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
5) without upogrades he is really LOL, i think even maradeurs can kite him?
so only use for him "in paper" is just a some meat shield instead/with roachers to take out some zealotos or ltake 2-3 shoots from M&M balls while your hydras killing enemies.
whats your opinions? have you tried this guy and it worked good for you?
//my rank is ~60 plat at the moment.
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I like the suggestion (not my idea originally) to make the slow ability on marauders not affect massive units. That would be a big boost to ultras in tvz.
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United States1075 Posts
On April 07 2010 05:06 petered wrote:
I like the suggestion (not my idea originally) to make the slow ability on marauders not affect massive units. That would be a big boost to ultras in tvz.
Slow ability DOESN'T affect massive units.
And yeah, ultras blow, they need to give it an ability or buff its damage or something. There's no reason to get it in a regular games besides to BM cause they suck so much.
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Guys... marauders slow doesn't slow massive targets already... geez
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On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
5) without upogrades he is really LOL, i think even maradeurs can kite him?
so only use for him "in paper" is just a some meat shield instead/with roachers to take out some zealotos or ltake 2-3 shoots from M&M balls while your hydras killing enemies.
whats your opinions? have you tried this guy and it worked good for you?
//my rank is ~60 plat at the moment.
Isn't ultra massive type? Isn't that why maruader slow doesn't affect it?
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They are waaay to big imo,getting blocked and blocking off your own units , not cool dawg not cool
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Posted reasons in the old thread, but the gist is:
1. hydras/roaches are very powerful, so most people skip melee upgrades in favor of ranged/carapace.
2. ultras are only good once they get all of their upgrades, meanwhile broodlords are also available at hive and are great without any upgrades.
3. no dark swarm means zerg late-game melee units are not nearly as effective as they were in SC1
4. Ultras are hard-countered fairly easily compared to SC1 ultras; marauders, thor, & immortal counter them very well.
5. considering all of the above, their 200 gas cost makes them situational at best.
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just want to add:
ultra counters masses of ravens very well, since marauder count is low and hsm don't do nearly as much damage. I've learned not to mass so many ravens else i will get runover TT
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Calgary25996 Posts
I don't have a suggestion to fix it. The Ultralisk sucks, is way too slow and I never build them.
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Gief ultralisk with heat seeking missile and storm. ASAP
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Also, ultra ling seems to suffer because lings block the ultras from even attacking. The ling autosurround goes off so fast that you can't really do much to get ultras to even attack until the lings die.
IMO, the attack should be range like .5 such that it can attack over a ling.
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their speed needs to be drastically increased with the speed upgrade.
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Ultralisks would need a TON of armor to be useful. Simply because in SC2 some key units deal so much damage that 6 armor is barely helping at all.
The units I am thinking about are roaches, marauders and immortals (hey it's you three again). Terran also got tanks AND thors now both of which barely suffer from armor, Protoss got the Void Ray and who wants his own Ultralisks Neural Parasited?
Another issue is that melee units seem to be weaker in SC2 in general. In mid/lategame Zealots and Zerglings are usually only built to get at least something for all those minerals (and to deal with each other).
But, if you incrase Ultralisk armor (would need a base value of 3-4 imo), they become absolutely impossibe to kill with anything but their hard counters.
Maybe a good solution would be to make Ultralisks "biological - massive", dropping the "armored". But this wouldn't make sense from a design perspective.
Oh, putting 10 spine crawlers on the back of each ultralisk would be awesome too.
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On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
Lets discuss ultralisk
From what i seen and my experience noone actually uses ultras even late game. And there is thouthands of reasons why:
1) its Hive tech. Once you get hive tech, why no to make BL instead?
2) Ultra is VERY big. little less than thor. Are you ready for such big ass?
3) Ultra deals pathetic 20dmg. Well maybe he attacks once per every 0,6 seconds or so, its not too bad, but definately not too much something over exciting. I believe 4 zerligns can deal more dps than 1 ultra
Even with buildings his 60 attack cant be much comparedto Immortal
4) He is tankish, thats good. 600 hp its like battlecruiser; same goes for armor. he can survive lots of marines.
But who uses marines that much?
another, and maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
5) without upogrades he is really LOL, i think even maradeurs can kite him?
so only use for him "in paper" is just a some meat shield instead/with roachers to take out some zealotos or ltake 2-3 shoots from M&M balls while your hydras killing enemies.
whats your opinions? have you tried this guy and it worked good for you?
//my rank is ~60 plat at the moment.
The problem with the ultralisk is that they have a too large size (i know that it is how they are supposed to be) in closed combat there is no space for zergling..so the ultralisk cannot be a tank to absorbe damage while zergling don't make damage :|
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They are so useless...
Thats the problem with Zerg's units. They have less ( just 9, compared to 12 of P and T ) units, and Ultralisks are pretty much useless as well :D The only reason to get hive now is Broodlord, or Upgrades. You wont be getting hive to upgrade roaches regeneration anymore ( nerfed to the ground ), zerglings attack speed ( worthless crap at this point in the game, and very expensive ) , or Ultralisks ( they suck so badly I prefer to make 4 roaches all day long instead of 1 ultralisk. ).
The fact that they are insanely slow even after upgrade, very big ( try having 5-6 of them in a large supply battle, they will most likely get stuck with the current maps and chokes everywhere ), and they need 2 upgrades + another building to be usefull, lol.
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Honestly the Ultra should be able to have lings walk under it, kinda like how units can walk under the colossus.
Ultra/ling would be a great meat shield/damage dealer but most of the time, the few ultras you actually make, spend most of their time running around like idiots trying to find a place to hit units.
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no mention of ultras splash damage or their ability to headbutt buildings? ultras and extremly effective vs zealots lings and marine comps
problem is roach/hydra is really synergistic and strong to say the least and it completly overshadows the ultralist. there are no lurkers to delay as you upgrade and hit hive tech you simpley need to always have a strong ground army.
I would really consider getting ultras vs a protoss who seems to be favoring heavv zealot play
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On April 07 2010 05:23 Chill wrote:
I don't have a suggestion to fix it. The Ultralisk sucks, is way too slow and I never build them.
I agree, it almost seems like you would need a combination of slugs(infestors) and creep to make them fast enough and get some hits in without being raped by faster units like marines and every single protoss unit
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On April 07 2010 05:52 Defrag wrote:
They are so useless...
Thats the problem with Zerg's units. They have less ( just 9, compared to 12 of P and T ) units, and Ultralisks are pretty much useless as well :D The only reason to get hive now is Broodlord, or Upgrades. You wont be getting hive to upgrade roaches regeneration anymore ( nerfed to the ground ), zerglings attack speed ( worthless crap at this point in the game, and very expensive ) , or Ultralisks ( they suck so badly I prefer to make 4 roaches all day long instead of 1 ultralisk. ).
The fact that they are insanely slow even after upgrade, very big ( try having 5-6 of them in a large supply battle, they will most likely get stuck with the current maps and chokes everywhere ), and they need 2 upgrades + another building to be usefull, lol.
People actually got the roach regeneration to begin with? I only know of them getting the move-burrow and some other ability roaches have. Never saw the regeneration used so I ignored the nerf when I was watching games as players never actually got it.
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They should start with the +2 armor, just remove that upgrade from the game completely. There's absolutely no situation where you'd want to use an ultralisk without that upgrade, so what's the point of making it an upgrade?
Also, the +armored units in almost every composition make the armor useless anyway. Get rid of the armored type -- Make the ultralisk "Massive, Biological".
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they seem more like a map control unit to me, rather than a base assaulter. when an opponent goes to attack your expo, and sees it has 3-4 ultras and some spores/spines, he might think twice before running right in. also good for sniping expos.
but, i play terran, so i dont really know.
ravens <3
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I think just dropping the 'armored' tag would fix em right up.
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It seems like it's a little bit lacking in it's use-variety compared to the Colossus and Thor.
The Thor has it's special ability that, while situational, can be used very effectively. It also has two attack types which makes it slightly more useful too.
The Colossus has it's cliff-walking ability that presents a massive variety of uses and purposes. The range upgrade also gives a very tangible boost to the unit.
On the other hand, the Ultra is just a big melee unit that can only really a-move and doesn't present too much in the way of variety.
I don't want to complain too much about the Ultra, as I do still enjoy using it (although I only really use them in 2v2s), but I just feel that it could use a tiny bit more...something. Whatever that 'something' may be.
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On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
... Are you ready for such big ass? ...
No, I am not ready for such big ass.
But seriously, I rarely see ultras used against me as Terran, because generally they're completely not needed. At this state in the game I've usually lost to a mass of banelings anyway.
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BW : zerg goes ling -> muta, with +1 melee. easy transition to go Ultralisks late game to use that upgrade again and with dark swarm, melee gets a huge buff.
SC2: quick roach -> hydra getting +2 range/+1 armor. ultralisks don't synergize at all. Why spend a lot of money to upgrade ultralisks, when you can make more roaches that are equally tanky, you can make more, for less?
I think Zerg is going to need another unit that is either really good melee that people get upgrades for, or something that buffs melee units. Ultralisks are not good enough by themselves. Maybe giving it some sort of aoe attack, apart from cleave, that slows down units in a small aoe. Like a marauder only in a small radius. Its not worth the mineral/gas to get a straight tank that isn't that good against anything other than tier 1 units.
Whoever said ground units should be able to walk underneath Ultralisks, good point. I agree, zerglings and roaches should be able to walk under ultralisks.
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On April 07 2010 05:53 SevenAteNine wrote:
no mention of ultras splash damage or their ability to headbutt buildings? ultras and extremly effective vs zealots lings and marine comps
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I would really consider getting ultras vs a protoss who seems to be favoring heavv zealot play
Really? You'd consider getting Ultras vs all these Protosses who favor mass Zealots?
How many are that. 1 in 1000000 in Copper League?
I also don't get why many people tend to say he's awesome to take down buildings. I mean his second attack is extremely slow and when you got 3 Hydras, 4 Roaches or 10 Lings attacking they'll take it down just as fast.
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I don't play zerg so maybe I'm wrong but the last time I saw ultralisks, the guy sent 2 of them leading the charge of his whole army. They soaked up all the damage from my tanks, PF and MMM ball while the zerglings and hydras munched on everything that moved.
Ultras are meatshields more than anything else.
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On April 07 2010 06:49 Krowser wrote:
I don't play zerg so maybe I'm wrong but the last time I saw ultralisks, the guy sent 2 of them leading the charge of his whole army. They soaked up all the damage from my tanks, PF and MMM ball while the zerglings and hydras munched on everything that moved.
Ultras are meatshields more than anything else.
Stimpacked MMM ball should rape 2 ultras in max 3s.
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Too expensive, not that good....I don't really have much to say about ultras, except that nobody ever really expects them.
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The best suggestion I can come up with is to give them the pathing of colossi, but without the cliffwalking. That way they would actually be able to attack in conjunction with lings instead of dicking around trying to move around that 1 ling blocking the way to the swarm of zealots or MM.
That, or remove armored, but thats probably not going to happen.
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On April 07 2010 07:12 Alsn wrote:
The best suggestion I can come up with is to give them the pathing of colossi, but without the cliffwalking. That way they would actually be able to attack in conjunction with lings instead of dicking around trying to move around that 1 ling blocking the way to the swarm of zealots or MM.
That, or remove armored, but thats probably not going to happen.
yes lets do that so I dont have to micro.....
ultras are fine no reason at all to tinker with them.
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On April 07 2010 07:16 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 07:12 Alsn wrote:
The best suggestion I can come up with is to give them the pathing of colossi, but without the cliffwalking. That way they would actually be able to attack in conjunction with lings instead of dicking around trying to move around that 1 ling blocking the way to the swarm of zealots or MM.
That, or remove armored, but thats probably not going to happen. yes lets do that so I dont have to micro..... ultras are fine no reason at all to tinker with them.
lol ultras are garbage. they are basically only useful for humiliation purposes, when you want to show your opponent that u have the whole map and can afford to waste loads of gas/mins on useless units. Its like a huge "gtfo already" when u build them
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yeahh.. ultras seem to blow pretty badly. i think they just need more armor or like a charge skill thing even.
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Actually if you value minerals : gas as 1 : 1 (I personally think 1 : 2 is more appropriate), you get 20 zerglings for one ultralisk. Larvae shouldn't be an issue at this point. If your opponent is Marauder heavy, those lings will tank WAY better than an Ultralisk could. Against tanks it's a different case because of the splash. But lings will cose up much faster and the tanks will start hitting other terran units.
Ultras mainly do well against armies that mostly consist of Marines. But as long as you don't get a lot of Mutas there is no reason for the terran mass Marines. And if you spend that much gas on air you won't have much left for Ultras.
If I were ever to build Ultras, I would get the Zerglings in first to tank until the Ultras close into the hopefully fungal'd army. With their splash, Ultras seem to be great damage dealers, but because they are so slow and countered so hard I wouldn't send them in first.
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On April 07 2010 06:04 rrowland wrote:
They should start with the +2 armor, just remove that upgrade from the game completely. There's absolutely no situation where you'd want to use an ultralisk without that upgrade, so what's the point of making it an upgrade?
Also, the +armored units in almost every composition make the armor useless anyway. Get rid of the armored type -- Make the ultralisk "Massive, Biological".
The "armored" type almost feels like some kind of inside joke. "Armored" is actually a huge disadvantage to have on any unit. Taking it off a unit represents a huge buff.
I think Blizzard should have realized that the Ultralisk from BW is not gonna work in SC2. In BW, do Zerg use Ultralisks against mech? They shouldn't because it's a bad idea. They use it against bio because marine damage per hit is low. This makes the +5 armor on Ultras a huge deal.
Now switch to SC2. Yeah the Ultra has really kickass AOE damage, but it just gets dominated with or without its armor upgrade. Everything does so much damage that I feel like the Ultra would have to START with +4-5 armor and upgrade to +9-10 armor (and that still would do jack against Immortals). The damage per hit on many units is just too big for armor values to matter.
This is just one of the examples where I feel that the Zerg race is showing its lack of polish in comparison to the Protoss and Terran. The implementation of the Ultra is just a head-scratcher. It's a glass cannon against small-health massed units - a glass cannon.
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My dirty little secret is that I've been going ultra every game that reaches hive (not zvz). And I've won every single one (where I've spawned at least one ultra). That generally only happens with protoss, but I've been meaning to try it with terran more often.
Against protoss what usually happens is they see I'm not going muta, so they throw down a robo or two, and start pumping collosus because those chew up roaches and hydras. But the problem is that collosus are ass against ultra ling. They can kill lings, but ultras are fast enough to chase them around and they take a lot of hits, and when they are almost dead, I just micro them out or even back to my natural for healing, so they don't even get the satisfaction. Spawns half a dozen immortals? They'll be lucky to get a single kill before they are swamped by lings.
I think the problem is that no one is getting them early and no one is ever upgrading them at all. Everyone loves spending 1200 gas on mutas, but I'd rather have 6 ultras than 12 mutas, personally. Getting 3 ultras 20 minutes into the game when there your opponent is +3 and there are 60 marauders on the field is pointless. But if you get a couple early, it can swing the battle really fast in your direction because they'll rip through all gateway units and assist greatly taking out medium infantry as well.
So usually what I do is get hive, and immediately get +1/+1 (I don't bother with range), by the time the first ultra pops out I'll be nearly +2/+4 and I'll have adrenal and speed for zergilngs. Then I just run over everything. So what if they focus my ultras, that just lets the lings lay waste to everything.
Edit: I should also say that I was an ultra hater a few weeks ago but now I'm converted, at least in the ZvP matchup.
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I can agree that Ultras right now are pretty useless. I have played some 100 1v1 games with zerg and never had a reason to use them. The only time you can possibly use them is really late guy, but even at that point, with spawn larva you can just macro the hell out of hydras and roaches to stay at 200 and end a game faster than switching to ultras, which hog your supply. Maybe if I ever have to face a army of 10 thors and 10 tanks I will need to ultra and brood lord, but who will ever let that happen.
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ultras are fine, stop tinkering with parts of the game that work and go fix the broken shit instead... there are loads
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On April 07 2010 07:29 onmach wrote:
My dirty little secret is that I've been going ultra every game that reaches hive (not zvz). And I've won every single one (where I've spawned at least one ultra). That generally only happens with protoss, but I've been meaning to try it with terran more often.
Against protoss what usually happens is they see I'm not going muta, so they throw down a robo or two, and start pumping collosus because those chew up roaches and hydras. But the problem is that collosus are ass against ultra ling. They can kill lings, but ultras are fast enough to chase them around and they take a lot of hits, and when they are almost dead, I just micro them out or even back to my natural for healing, so they don't even get the satisfaction. Spawns half a dozen immortals? They'll be lucky to get a single kill before they are swamped by lings.
I think the problem is that no one is getting them early and no one is ever upgrading them at all. Everyone loves spending 1200 gas on mutas, but I'd rather have 6 ultras than 12 mutas, personally. Getting 3 ultras 20 minutes into the game when there your opponent is +3 and there are 60 marauders on the field is pointless. But if you get a couple early, it can swing the battle really fast in your direction because they'll rip through all gateway units and assist greatly taking out medium infantry as well.
So usually what I do is get hive, and immediately get +1/+1 (I don't bother with range), by the time the first ultra pops out I'll be nearly +2/+4 and I'll have adrenal and speed for zergilngs. Then I just run over everything. So what if they focus my ultras, that just lets the lings lay waste to everything.
Edit: I should also say that I was an ultra hater a few weeks ago but now I'm converted, at least in the ZvP matchup.
A good protoss will:
1) SCOUT, and knew whats coming.
2) Insta spawn 4/5 sentries from his warpgates and with a proper use of forcefields you can as well as dance with your ultralisks, since thanks to their size, they can be blocked so easy it makes them useless.
Not to mention that teching to hive and making that many upgrade will leave you vurenable to protoss pushes so much that a decent player will win game 3 times by that time u have ultralisks.
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ive had some guy actually complain about ultralisk balance in a recent game of mine, im 7th place gold atm in case you wonder (dont know opponents rank - he was protoss trying to take out my hydra/lings with storm/sentry/zeal while i teched to hive and got some of those ultrababys).
tried same shit vs terran - lost in 5 seks battle to stimmed marauders (even had the infestor to put them in place t_t).
Conclusion: Ultralisk suck any decent oponent will run over you before you get them out or just obliterate them while you have nearly no other gas unit. Want to see burrowed ultralisk ambush though^^
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On April 07 2010 05:53 Killmour wrote:
Honestly the Ultra should be able to have lings walk under it, kinda like how units can walk under the colossus.
Ultra/ling would be a great meat shield/damage dealer but most of the time, the few ultras you actually make, spend most of their time running around like idiots trying to find a place to hit units.
Yeah, that would be epic and make Ultra-Ling not an AI cluster fail though blings would be painful. In fact it would be nice for small units(marines/ghosts/broodlings/zealots) to run under certian units(Colossi/Ultralisk/Thor).
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Ultralisks need an ability to set them apart. If this is possible something fun to micro, not like all zergs a+click units...
Maybe a charge+effect (like stun) without auto cast. But this would be too much zealot like.
Or a "tank mode" (+armor and regen mb) that make them slower or not able to move.
PLEASE zergs need crucial things to micro + more unit diversity.
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I have lost a game or two teching to ultra, but I'm serious when I say that it's not really all that risky. Hive, cavern, ultra. It takes about a minute and a half, and all you have to do is defend. It is faster than brood lords, and yes I'll say it. I like ultralisks more than brood lords.
Sentries should be a problem, but they never seem to be. Sure a few forcefields go down, but it doesn't work any better than if I were going roach. Taking ramps is hard, but really most ramps aren't worth taking. I suggest some of you who are adamant that ultras suck try them sometimes (with upgrades) and I think you'll be surprised.
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Ultralisks obviously need a "Trample" ability, that allows them to squash small units... such as MM, zealots and zerglings. ^^
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Allow ultras to walk over units with a small size, so it wont bug that often.
Decrease the size of ultras a bit.
Buff lings a tiny bit.
I think that would be a lot better already. The whole problem with ultras is twofold: 1. roach+hydra+BL are all much much better and needed in midgame to even survive. 2. ultras bug bigtime when it comes to pathing, you cant even get 2 next to each other at all.. a simple rine holds him up easily, while with its posture it should be able to just stamp on it.
I dont think unit diversity should be put into the ultras (yes literally), rather it should get its rightful place in the Z arsenal and an additional different unit should be added (in special, a unit that actually has a bonus vs armored, which Z only has for AvA and static defense spine crawler). So, get back lurker plz.
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The pathetic 20 damage is full front-splash damage. so it's a pretty beastly support unit. too bad it's too slow, i think that's the only problem. And yeah it sucks without upgrades, but how often do you get to hive tech without at least 1/2?
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On April 07 2010 07:48 HubertFelix wrote:
Ultralisks need an ability to set them apart. If this is possible something fun to micro, not like all zergs a+click units...
Maybe a charge+effect (like stun) without auto cast. But this would be too much zealot like.
Or a "tank mode" (+armor and regen mb) that make them slower or not able to move.
PLEASE zergs need crucial things to micro + more unit diversity.
Yeah, roaches/hydras aren't about that either nor are mutalisks, broodlords. You have to face it as of right now Zerg lack diversity and abilities on units. It has been always like this from SC1 (exception would be the actual casting unit.)
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I feel like if I am able to get an ample amount of nicely upgraded (at least 1-2 upgrades) ultras, I feel like I have either A. Won the game already. or B. Could have spent those minerals/gas elsewhere, like in higher upgrades for my hydra/roach/ling/baneling/infestors or just had a more massive army without the ultras and my army would have been better off than having ultras. I don't feel like ultras are filling the role they should like they did in SC1, there are so many armor piercing units that they just get slaughtered if focused correctly, and not like in SC1 where yeah they could be blown to shreds but they still tanked for more than .5 to 1 second tops when focused. Just my 2 cents...
Edit: They are also way too big compared to other units and they usually end up losing 50-75% of their hp before they can even get a few hits in. On top of that a good protoss with the use of 2-3 sentries can set down a few well placed forcefields completely negating every ultralisk for the duration.
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Lots of underused units in SC2 not suffer so much from directly sucking but more so because they are not part of a good strategy.
Hydra/roach seems superior for zerg in most matchups and go well with range upgrades first and then carapace. Ultra's requiring hive tech and heavy gas makes them a unit you get lategame at which they somewhat suck as they won't have attack upgrades.
The underlying problem here lies in that zerg melee (ultra + ling) is basically inferior to hydra+roach in every matchup.
Personally I think ultra's can definately see some more play then they do now if zerg would play a bit more varied, nevertheless a slight buff is also in order.
Probably one of the ultralisk upgrades should be automatically given to them, they are basically the only unit that requires 2 upgrades for them to be effective (other units that can get 2 don't depend on the 2nd one so much like templar). They should probably get the speed tech for free.
It's pathing can also be improved by either just reducing the size or making it like a colossus in that it walks over units and sentry fields (but not cliffs).
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On April 07 2010 06:47 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:53 SevenAteNine wrote:
no mention of ultras splash damage or their ability to headbutt buildings? ultras and extremly effective vs zealots lings and marine comps
[...]
I would really consider getting ultras vs a protoss who seems to be favoring heavv zealot play Really? You'd consider getting Ultras vs all these Protosses who favor mass Zealots? How many are that. 1 in 1000000 in Copper League?
If your facing a protoss who favors High Templar they will be force to make zealots, thats when i pull out the ultras.
Never said it was all the time but really roach/hydra comp is really solid, zerg dosnt NEED ultras aslong as roach/hydra does so well
Edit: Also as a possible buff to ultras let them be able to walk over small units and make zerglings and broodlings be small units this would disable part of ultras pathing issue and give having high melee upgrade better synergy
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On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
Lets discuss ultralisk
From what i seen and my experience noone actually uses ultras even late game. And there is thouthands of reasons why:
1) its Hive tech. Once you get hive tech, why no to make BL instead?
2) Ultra is VERY big. little less than thor. Are you ready for such big ass?
3) Ultra deals pathetic 20dmg. Well maybe he attacks once per every 0,6 seconds or so, its not too bad, but definately not too much something over exciting. I believe 4 zerligns can deal more dps than 1 ultra
Even with buildings his 60 attack cant be much comparedto Immortal
4) He is tankish, thats good. 600 hp its like battlecruiser; same goes for armor. he can survive lots of marines.
But who uses marines that much?
another, and maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
5) without upogrades he is really LOL, i think even maradeurs can kite him?
so only use for him "in paper" is just a some meat shield instead/with roachers to take out some zealotos or ltake 2-3 shoots from M&M balls while your hydras killing enemies.
whats your opinions? have you tried this guy and it worked good for you?
//my rank is ~60 plat at the moment.
Uhmm... I just gotta say Ultra's did 20 Dmg in SCBW and now they have splash.
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First of all, not every game is pure roach/hydra. Especially against a marauder heavy Terran, hydra/ling or muta/ling works much better than roach/hydra. When you are running a midgame army with lots of zerglings, Hive upgrade is worth just for Cracklings. While it's weaker than in SC1, the Crackling upgrade is still significant in that it allows lings to beat equal-food equal-upgrade zealots.
When you enter tier-3 with a Melee upgrade or two, there's really no reason not to get Ultras. The ultra's cleave radius is HUGE, it is comparable to the Colossus. While an ultra does 18 damage compared to the colossus's 20x2, the ultra attacks more than twice as fast. If the enemy units are unable to run away, one Ultralisk will actually do more DPS than one Colossus. Note that both units are 300/200/6.
Compared to a colossus, the ultralisk is melee (big disadvantage) and can't climb cliffs, but has twice the HP and can't get cheesed by Corruptors/Vikings. More importantly, the rate at which you can spawn Ultras is limited only by your economy. (unlike Colossus where it is really not practical to build that many robotics facilities) When you are ahead by a base or two, the ultra is a great way to turn economy directly into ownage and end the game.
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On April 07 2010 08:37 Nub4ever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
Lets discuss ultralisk
From what i seen and my experience noone actually uses ultras even late game. And there is thouthands of reasons why:
1) its Hive tech. Once you get hive tech, why no to make BL instead?
2) Ultra is VERY big. little less than thor. Are you ready for such big ass?
3) Ultra deals pathetic 20dmg. Well maybe he attacks once per every 0,6 seconds or so, its not too bad, but definately not too much something over exciting. I believe 4 zerligns can deal more dps than 1 ultra
Even with buildings his 60 attack cant be much comparedto Immortal
4) He is tankish, thats good. 600 hp its like battlecruiser; same goes for armor. he can survive lots of marines.
But who uses marines that much?
another, and maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
5) without upogrades he is really LOL, i think even maradeurs can kite him?
so only use for him "in paper" is just a some meat shield instead/with roachers to take out some zealotos or ltake 2-3 shoots from M&M balls while your hydras killing enemies.
whats your opinions? have you tried this guy and it worked good for you?
//my rank is ~60 plat at the moment. Uhmm... I just gotta say Ultra's did 20 Dmg in SCBW and now they have splash.
This is no longer Sc:Bw, so stop thinking in that manner.
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do ultralisk require 4 population or 6?
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On April 07 2010 07:32 arnold(soTa) wrote:
ultras are fine, stop tinkering with parts of the game that work and go fix the broken shit instead... there are loads
I smell a troll.
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if you want to fix it you'll need to find some advantage for late game melee units and a plausible mid-game melee transition or a mid-game ranged transition that doesnt rely on evo upgrades (ie lurker). the current possible transitions into ultras are hydras and mutas and infestors, non of which are beneficial towards an ultra tech switch in any way (except infestors, but they dont do enough to count)
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On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
another, and maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
This is the only problem I have with Ultras. Its not that Ultras are bad. They are just fine. Its that SC2 has too much +bonus vs armored. Mauraders, immortals in particular make ultras worthless.
EDIT: actually, reading other posts, it IS true that ultras alone suck bad, but are pretty decent combined with lings. Ultras will destroy most ground stuff (especially P) and when you get to the immortals, pull back and sick 30 lings on them. I did that in 1 game so far and it worked pretty good.
I still don't like all the super strong +dam vs armored in SC2, but ultras aren't all that bad even as it is.
I DO wish that ultras could run faster. As a melee unit, the ability to close on a unit would be nice.
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I could see them getting used in a very lategame 2v2 on twilight awfultress. I don't see any problem with there being a unit that is almost never used, zerg isn't as one-dimensional as people here are making it out to be. Lings, banelings, hydras, roaches and mutas all have major roles in zerg play.
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everytime i build ultras i feel like it's a waste. broodlords are better in every single way.
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anyone actually have some replays of ultralisks not being completely useless? *in platinum?
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May anyone care to answer why isn't anyone healing these slow tanks with high armor, high hp, large AoE attack, that greatly benefit from creep, can't attack air, gas intensive, and are large (occupies 2 range space) with transfusion queens, that unit that only costs minerals and no larva, that can spawn creep, that attacks ground from range 3, that has no light or armored types, and one of the best anti-air ground units in the game?
It is pretty much the Zerg-side 2 thor push. The main diferences are that anti-air comes from the queens, the ultras are supported by ranged attacks, and in a pinch you can just send a speedling swarm instantly through the map (since you'll have everything creeped up and basically have a tumor maphack).
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i just hate the soud it makes when attacking .... OMG
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so yeah... no replays exist right?
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if u gave zerg dark swarm ultras would be fine, as long a one infestor came in for support.
the problem with them in sc2 is that in sc1 they were used as something to take damage while dark swarm was being used, now that there is no dark swarm there is not a place in the game where they have a job to do, so nobody uses them.
people will have to find a new way to use them, the traditional style of using them as a tankand/or spotter for lings and defilers doesnt work in the current builds AT ALL.
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Carriers/BattleCruisers/Ultralisk sucks 
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Don't even bother with the armor upgrade, it does nothing against marauders and marauders are going to be doing 90% of the damage to the ultras anyway.
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I don't know if this has been mentioned but Ultras have splash/swipe damage now which makes them significantly better against clumped up ground troops.
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Why don't they just remove the Ultralisk and bring the Lurker back. It does splash. The roach is already there as tank.
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On April 07 2010 12:21 salidsnake wrote:
I don't know if this has been mentioned but Ultras have splash/swipe damage now which makes them significantly better against clumped up ground troops.
it has been mentioned, but the problem is that ultralisk speed is nowhere near enough to actually be able to chase down marauders and marines. with good micro the terran's MMM ball pretty much never get hit more than once or twice.
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They aren't bad vs terrans who do use marine heavy builds (such as myself), and would seem to be niche based as a typical sc2 unit, the problem is that banelings and broodlords do a better job of countering marines already.
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The ultralisk desperately needs a complete redesign.
I know Blizz tried by adding the cleave ability and burrow, but it's just not effective
The ultra had its place in SC1, but SC2 is a completely different game.
It's just useless the way it is now
I think they should just scrap it and give the Zerg a new tank unit.
Right now it just gets slain by Marauders and Immortals.
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Ultras crack bases. That is what they do. Make BLs / Mutas / Corruptors destroy the army, and roll w/ 5 ultras and wreck a base in 20 seconds.
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You cant compare a zerg unit to a protoss unit, The Zergs are supose to be weaker.
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- They remain expensive in gas and supply and they need a lot of expensive upgrades too
- They are still slow even with the movement speed upgrade, M&M can easily kite them with stim
- Their size is a disadvantage. They get stuck in chokes and in the middle of your army.
- Their unit type which is "armored" is a disadventage. Makes them squishy.
- Aside from marauders, immortals, voidrays, They also fall to abilities of the sentry (forcefield), Thor (artillery), Infestor (neural parasite).
- No more dark swarm to protect them
- You'd rather have brood lords.
I see no real advantages in using them.. Unless Im playing against a noob.
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If Blizz wanted to mess around with the Ultra, if they want to buff it, they should make it spawn a dark swarm on death. Maybe make the Ultras already have speed, and put the Dark Swarm on Death replace the speed upgrade.
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On April 07 2010 12:51 t3hw0lf wrote:
Ultras crack bases. That is what they do. Make BLs / Mutas / Corruptors destroy the army, and roll w/ 5 ultras and wreck a base in 20 seconds.
You can wreck a base with 10 marauders or 3 immortals in 20 seconds as well.
Why would I get hive, ultra, infestors, upgrades all for a simple unit that gets easily blocked by a mere poor ling/rine or zealot? Killing a single rine takes 3 shots, so why would I get an ultra that cant even get to the army? Getting creep all over the map to make a unit viable isnt really that practical...
Seriously, as long as the ultralisks sucks ass when it comes to getting to a target, it wont be used. And guess how it never gets to a target? Cuz its pathing is so easily interrupted by units. Make them smaller or allow them to walk over stupid rines/lings/supply depots.
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The ultra does AoE I don't know what you're complaining about... it's a counter to opponents doing small units like zealot/sentry or marine/marauder.
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Russian Federation81 Posts
despite of both players having 100 apm average this replay is not good. asolutely poor macro by zerg combined with no scouting at all, very small bio-ball of terran..
but well, yeah, its proves something - if ultras get close they can do some good splashy damage!
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i say just increased the range of their AoE a little bit
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On April 08 2010 00:35 -orb- wrote:
The ultra does AoE I don't know what you're complaining about... it's a counter to opponents doing small units like zealot/sentry or marine/marauder.
Ultras counter zealots, sentries, marines, and zerglings fantastically.
They can barely scratch maruaders.
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On April 08 2010 00:35 -orb- wrote:
The ultra does AoE I don't know what you're complaining about... it's a counter to opponents doing small units like zealot/sentry or marine/marauder.
If ultra is a counter to marauder. Then either ultra suck, or marauder are really good.
And I wouldnt say ultra own sentries as a sentry does a simple force field and the ultra with its crappy movement moves very slowly around the force field, meanwhile the sentry has fled the scene.
Also, I am not complaining about the damage of the ultra, im complaining about that the ultra can never get to its target in combination with other units or even with other units. Because its so damn huge it cant move anywhere in a normal manner. Why can colossus walk over the small units of toss? But why can't ultras? I swear that if the ultras could move just as freely (except for cliffwalk) like a colossus they will be worth the money.
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well just what i read on the 1st/5th page idk if this has been suggested..but maybe like make it a neutral armor(so marauders/immortals/roaches(i think?) cant rape the fuck out of it. and to make up for its slow walking speed give it a charge ability, the scariest part of bw ultras were once they got the speed upgrade they would charge in and rape the unholy fuck out of you, bring that back but maybe in an ability form?
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On April 08 2010 01:37 Koffiegast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 00:35 -orb- wrote:
The ultra does AoE I don't know what you're complaining about... it's a counter to opponents doing small units like zealot/sentry or marine/marauder. If ultra is a counter to marauder. Then either ultra suck, or marauder are really good. And I wouldnt say ultra own sentries as a sentry does a simple force field and the ultra with its crappy movement moves very slowly around the force field, meanwhile the sentry has fled the scene. Also, I am not complaining about the damage of the ultra, im complaining about that the ultra can never get to its target in combination with other units or even with other units. Because its so damn huge it cant move anywhere in a normal manner. Why can colossus walk over the small units of toss? But why can't ultras? I swear that if the ultras could move just as freely (except for cliffwalk) like a colossus they will be worth the money.
This... why can't lings (any small unit) walk under the ultralisk????
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The worst thing about it is its mobility imo. It has been buffed to 600hp to still be affective like a tank against immortals/marauders. However, units in SC2 are MUCH more mobile than in BW. As far as I can remember, Upgraded Ultralisk speed were (almost)= Upgraded Ling speed in BW. If it's not the same in SC2 (no beta key =(), it could get buffed.
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they should just cost 4 population lol, broodlords only require 2
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Increase Ultra's range for sure.
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maybe they'll add upgrades to the ultra later to actually make it useful like they did going from starcraft->broodwar lol
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Ultras are a joke. Anybody that wins with them could have won 4 minutes earlier with broodlords.
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ultralisks should have the adrenal glands upgrade. THEN it will really be a big zergling.
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You guys really need to learn how to play with ultra...
If i Remember... Ultra does AOE damage no ? Really good counter on small unit like MM or Zealot or mass ling hydra or even roach
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Added with roach and hydra and Infestor... its a killing machine... he can tank so many hit.. with only the +2 upgrade and maybe a +1 in D that you would have anyway that far in the game...
Vs MMMT its perfect... you freeze the unit with infestor... hydra and roach kill and ultra tank + does damage.... Vs photon cannon or bunker.. its magic... I faced over 10 canon with 3-4 ultralisk... and they could survive the fight.. (2+1 upgrade)
Ultralisk is underused... but its still really good imo
Btw: Im plat 30 in 1v1 and it works hard with ultra...
if the other player dont go with the hard counter... he just get own by the best tank in the game while the support or damage dealer does all the others things...
I dont say that Ultra dont need a buff... a little one could be good... but they dont need THAT much...
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If you do the math... Ultra is good replacement for roach
roach = 75 min 25 gas 145 hp
ultra = 300 - 200 600 hp + more damage then roach + cant be slowed + aoe damage...
Roach x 5 = 375 min 125 gas 725 hp
You can almost get the same stat from 5 roach.. but they dont have the ability the Ultra got... and its really easy to get a +2 armor upgrade that cost only 150 - 150
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I normally just lurk here and don't post, but I had an idea. Feel free to shoot me down, I'm not the most knowledgeable person ever on this subject.
After reading through this, I kind of liked the charge idea, as well as the colossus-like pathing, so that units could move under it. Anyway, maybe something like a targeted charge+aoe stun for around the amount of time it takes for the charge (a second or less, a bit like a warrior's charge for anyone who has played WoW). Give the overlord 75 energy, and have the ability cost 50 energy. Instead of a speed upgrade, give an upgrade for +25 energy. If you stagger the ability, mix with infestors-speedlings, it could be interesting.
To balance this, keep the armored type, drop the speed upgrade. Maybe give a slight buff to base armor. I can't see it being used in zvp a lot, but it would punish mmm and probably tanks as well.
Maybe this is completely out-of-place, maybe this would be horribly imbalanced, but to me, at 5:00 AM, it seems conceivable. Thoughts?
Also, I've had some success with them in small numbers, without the armor upgrade to help hunt down the opponent's expos. Their building attack is strong, and a lot of times people overcompensate, building far more immortals or marauders than they probably should. But then again, I'm in Bronze league, their scouting generally isn't wonderful (nor is mine).
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On April 07 2010 05:32 agorist wrote:
Also, ultra ling seems to suffer because lings block the ultras from even attacking. The ling autosurround goes off so fast that you can't really do much to get ultras to even attack until the lings die.
IMO, the attack should be range like .5 such that it can attack over a ling.
Ultras have a range of 1 they can attack over 2 lings.
Ultras also have fairly significant splash damage so they really do quite a bit of damage.
I honestly would never make them over broodlords mostly because of how crazy strong broodlings are but I think ultraling may turn out to be a fairly viable late game build.
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the biggest problem with ultras is that roach+hydra need the same ranged attack upgrade. If you want to switch you have to upgrade the meele as well, plus Hivet tech + the 2 upgrades. If the toss knows you're switching you will be dead because he either brakes you when you are weak because of the upgrades and saving money or pulls out 8-10 immortals and owns your ultras.
Against T, if you menaged to survive to Hive tech you're good, congrat! but the weak period is still there, where he can bust you. Still, more viable against T.
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On April 08 2010 19:36 Yokoblue wrote:
You guys really need to learn how to play with ultra...
If i Remember... Ultra does AOE damage no ? Really good counter on small unit like MM or Zealot or mass ling hydra or even roach
I agree with this... But the problem is Broodlords counter small unit like MM or Zealot or mass ling hydra or even roach, in addition Broodlords can fly and are good peon harass also messes up the AI. They just seem more effective and they don't need two upgrades before they are actually can be useful.
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I just beat two more gold players last night with ultras, and I only played three games. You guys are really missing out.
The terran went thor/hellion with a smattering of tanks which was the first time I've had to deal with that. I thought if anything would counter ultras, this would. But he went down pretty hard. After the zerglings were dead, I just pulled back the 2 or 3 ultras I had left to my nat, healed them a bit, rerallied a bunch of troops including a couple more ultras and tons of zerglings and went back in. I lost a few ultras during every skirmish, but he lost a lot more thors. That thor special attack is pretty damned good against ultras, but the zerglings are wailing on them while they are stationary. He even had 2-2 upgrades on his mech which were even with my own.
Also I did a test, ultras with and without speed are exactly equivalent to roaches. That's fast enough to escape from anything that would pose any real danger.
The other win was a 2 robo fac protoss. He saw I was going ultra and started building immortals. So I just pulled back my ultras to deal damage to his nat and had a group of zerglings between the immortals and ultras and he couldn't descend down his ramp without losing his immortals. Once the nat was gone, there was no coming back. He also had some collosus earlier which took out my third, but once my ultras started popping, all of his troops got surrounded and died.
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On April 08 2010 20:49 onmach wrote:
I just beat two more gold players last night with ultras, and I only played three games. You guys are really missing out.
And I can beat platinum players with just zerglings, whats your point? (I'm not even good at starcraft >< )
Yes ultras are "alright" and you can win games while you make them. Thats not the problem, the problem is that they're MUCH inferior than broodlords in every plausible scenarios. =/
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Considering how the roach is being nerfed into the ground (hah burrowed roach joke) it may be more viable to get the ultra with patch 8...but still there is the question of why would you get it over the broodlord?
Three things would make me seriously consider the ultra as a viable alternative to the brood lord.
1) Slightly less cost. Perhaps 50 gas cheaper is all that would do it.
2) Colossus pathing over small units, not cliff walking, just the ability to path over lings/rines etc.
3) Its den upgrades being researched a bit faster. Again not going overboard but slighty adjusted timing on the armor and speed upgrade could really bring these heavies into the game viably
I am not saying all 3 things mind you, any of the 3 could really make a zerg consider using them over a brood lord.
The real problem is overlap.
A zerg can make a ton of corrupters, clear the air, go brood lords and counter exactly what the ultra is made to counter. Meanwhile lords being flyers dont have any of the pathing issues of the ultra. You can migrate to them from t2 much more viably because of the muta tech path and cost wise they pan out better.
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Agree with Synwave, maybe dropping the supply to 5 would help too, the unit idea is great, its just not polished enough to be pratical.
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What do you want? Ultras on tier 2 with full upgrades? Ultras are fine as damage taker like it was in SC1 and cracklings dealing the real damage. And btw just because some people don't use them doesn't mean they are useless. The game will evolve.
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On April 08 2010 22:07 HTX wrote:
What do you want? Ultras on tier 2 with full upgrades? Ultras are fine as damage taker like it was in SC1 and cracklings dealing the real damage. And btw just because some people don't use them doesn't mean they are useless. The game will evolve.
But nobody ever use them. I literally saw no ultralisk in all the games I played or watched beside maybe in the first few weeks of beta.
Their role overlap with broodlords, and broodlords are much better.
In SC1 ultralisks could tank better because SC1 didn't have immortals, marauders or thors.
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hummm someone mentioned fungal growth... that might actually be the key since it completely inhibits movement *scratch sorry-excuse-of-a-beard*
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On April 07 2010 05:23 Gretorp wrote:
just want to add:
ultra counters masses of ravens very well, since marauder count is low and hsm don't do nearly as much damage. I've learned not to mass so many ravens else i will get runover TT
Why would you mass ravens??
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Just out of curiousity how imbalanced would the game get if the Ultralisk got the Roach's regeneration and the Roach got the Ultralisk's splash damage? If that makes it to imbalanced I always imagine Ultralisks having a stim pack+plague type ability. Activate it and it increases attack speed and movement speed permanently but you continuously lose life. Could be fun~
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On April 08 2010 22:15 Thamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 22:07 HTX wrote:
What do you want? Ultras on tier 2 with full upgrades? Ultras are fine as damage taker like it was in SC1 and cracklings dealing the real damage. And btw just because some people don't use them doesn't mean they are useless. The game will evolve. But nobody ever use them. I literally saw no ultralisk in all the games I played or watched beside maybe in the first few weeks of beta. Their role overlap with broodlords, and broodlords are much better. In SC1 ultralisks could tank better because SC1 didn't have immortals, marauders or thors.
Agree with the overlapping issue. But like you said they are not used because of broodlords, so ultras are not the source of pain here. And the immo/mara/roach point isn't valid because ultras were used a lot vs siege tanks in sc1 despite the siege splash damage.
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Tbh I never played broodwar, but I doubt that siege tanks were doing 34 DPS to the ultralisk... (Thats immortals to ultralisks). Beside, its not the same game at all aniway.
Theres two way of looking at it. The broodlord is too good so the ultralisk is useless, or the ultralisk is too bad to measure up to the broodlord. Since we rarely see broodlords in most games aniway, I'd go for the later. But ether way, theres a problem which require attention.
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Whenever there's a discussion about tweaking a unit, everybody seems to lament about Armor. Increase armor, reduce armors etc. But that polarizes the unit's effectiveness - it becomes totally different vs low damage units and high damage units.
So, why not just increase the plain old HEALTH points? That makes them equally stronger against everything.
Make ultra 1000HP and increase the speed a tad and see how that works.
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Ultralisk and broodlord serve the same role: an anti-ground unit that helps push/break defenses through tanking and dps.
Broodlord acts like a tank because of the spawns, ultralisk acts like a tank but less so because of its vulnerability to immortal and marauder.
Increase the speed of ulltralisks so they can accompany lings, and rebalance them to fit this role. That would distinguish them from the slow moving broodlod pusher.
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IMO the main use of Ultras is not really to fight opposing armies, but rather to serve as the ultimate base harrassers / demolishers. I remember seeing a video with three Ultras (delivered by a Nydus, but a drop would work too) demolishing some buildings very fast. They even jumped back into the Nydus and got out alive. The "instant Nydus delivery" and the increased damage against buildings are their two main advantages over Brood Lords (plus lower cost by 50 gas and more hit points) and they should be usd accordingly.
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I might have a couple suggestions, but before that i specify clearly that i DO NOT own a beta key although I already preordered SC2, and i cannot tell how some units behave, my experience being only what i have seen on youtube, streams, etc.
i also played SC2 against the AI cpl of times, but i realise that is zero to multiplayer game experience
Suggestion 1
The problem with ultralisk is that they are massive and slow, expensive and can be easily killed and therefore countered. This reminds me of a certain orc unit from Warcraft 3.
Ultralisks can receive a passive or active buff that makes all nearby allied units in a certain radius receive and atack bonus? Well, make it a defense bonus or something.
Well the point is that the ability can be a buff/debuff and can be active/passive. The ability can be researchable, so it would be more logical to get it.
Suggestion 2
Ultralisk can have a blink-like ability, also researchable or not, in which they can leap short distances. This way you can land your Ultras in the middle of the enemy force and cause some havoc. It is more logical for a melee unit to have the ability to get fast near an opponent than a melee one
Suggestion 3
similarly to suggestion1, ultralisk can receive and ability with aoe. they stomp their large feet on the ground and can silence or stun enemy targets for a short period of time. (silence means no skill usage)
Just think about it : silenced MMM , no stim, no healing, no HSM for Ravens, now that is a solid reason to make ultras
Also if you think it's OP, only ground units might be affected, or only biological (they get scared) something like that
NOTE
- these are just suggestions, so don't start calling me idiot or moron.
- there aren't any specific values, so modifications and suggestions are always welcome
- the above suggestion are made taking into consideration the sentry force-field ability and the terran MMM ball.
- i hope Blizz employees see this and do something for patch 9
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^ I really like the first suggestion. But its hard to incorporate it into zergs... You can't really have a "morale boost" kind of expanation because of how the zergs are with the overmind and all... Its really a lore problem there I think.
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On April 08 2010 23:52 Thamoo wrote:
^ I really like the first suggestion. But its hard to incorporate it into zergs... You can't really have a "morale boost" kind of expanation because of how the zergs are with the overmind and all... Its really a lore problem there I think.
well, about the lore ..... obviously zerglings have no morale,
make the ability something like:
Ultralisks have huge backs, they can have some pores on their backs, they can receive a gland which can secrete a certain liquid. When he sprays nearby allied units with the liquid from that gland, the become more agressive.
Of course, what I stated above can have some PIMPASS name, but this is up to the developers.
This can be a viable workaround from the lore perspective. I am sure with enough imagination, a sci-fi strategy game can receive plausible explanation to why a certain ability works in a certain way
Lore, really is the slightest impediment, the no1 priority is really think if certain ability is not overpowered and if it can be implemented in the actual game
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^ I agree with this, would love to see it implemented!
Another fix I haven't saw is to simply decrease the ultralisk CAVERN gaz cost. Thing is ultralisks are too big to be massed and required alot of upgrades to be efficient... You don't wanna spend close to 1000gaz (cavern, both upgrades, melee upgrades...) on a unit you want 3-4 at most.
The idea would be to make the ultralisk a bonus, instead of a "goal" unit. You got to hive? Here, have some cheap ultralisks to flank with.
Why not make the cavern 300 mineral instead of 150/200? That way when you do get hive (rare) you can spend the excess minerals zerg always seem to have into getting some support ultras easily. And if you do want to "mass" them for some reasons, you can then invests in the upgrades and start massing them and their 200G/unit.
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turn the ultralisk into a ground based zergling carrier where it sends lings out to attack, give a command to make them return and heal inside the ultra,  P
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On April 08 2010 22:32 DarthHalo2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 05:23 Gretorp wrote:
just want to add:
ultra counters masses of ravens very well, since marauder count is low and hsm don't do nearly as much damage. I've learned not to mass so many ravens else i will get runover TT Why would you mass ravens??
Because i'm bad..
I mean massing marine marauders ofc, and putting the majority of your end game gas to ravens. Not just going ravens :-P
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In every game I've played I've NEVER had Ultralisks play an effective role within my strategy.
There usually are two different scenarios:
A. Either I've won with Ultras because I was way ahead of my opponent and could've won the game in many different ways but I picked Ultras for shits n giggles.
B. I lose the game because they're way too expensive for what they're worth due to all the reasons already mentioned in this thread.
And to all people saying they're great vs tier 1 units and people have to learn how to use the ultralisk: Yes, nobody disagrees that they're extremely awesome vs Tier 1 units, but unfortunately in the games I play my opponents don't go mass marines in late game where I'm building ultra's or have 3 full groups of roach/hydra/infestors waiting for them. I've also been very unlucky to never have had a Protoss opponent build Zealots against me without other unit support and I've never seen an Ultra in ZvZ.
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On April 07 2010 11:25 Licmyobelisk wrote:Carriers/BattleCruisers/Ultralisk sucks
This many times over. I have 0 reason to go BC or carriers in the current patch. Didn't play zerg much so can't say about ultras, but they actually seem like the most viable tier 3 unit atm.
This is a recurring problem in races: broodlords good/ultras bad, thors good/BCs bad, colossus good/carrier bad.
The problem is that not only do these units need to be balanced against their other tier 3 counterpart, but also against other races entire tech tree.
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Ultras are very strong against protoss, simply because he needs a lot of immortals to kill them in time, and they just eat zealots (every protoss will always have a lot of zealots because of high gas cost of all other protoss units). Getting a lot of immortals is a slow tactic that you go for from the beginning, so if you transition to ultras at some point (assuming that they don't have immortals already) you will probably win. If they DO have immortals then just don't go for ultras, make broodlords or something. That is the point, as soon as your tech building finishes if you have the money you can instantly start producing a lot of units from that tech and the opponent won't have enough time to make a counter. And no, you don't need to mass them, just make 2-3 and you will have a huge advantage.
The only problem is making a correct decision of when can you afford to tech (and reap the benefits if you succeed). That is the the biggest/most important skill required to play the zerg race.
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I think the OP is a bit naive. Ultralisks aren't always a solid tech choice, sure. But I'll tell you, when a protoss is going 5+ warpgates, ultras just wreck their armies. It's incredible fun to watch. Also, in all of my experiences, they can in fact attack over a zerglings shoulder, making ling/ultra incredibly powerful. Maybe this is situational? I know I have seen units surrounded by lings get smashed by ultras.
I think especially after this last patch, ultralisks are absolutely a viable tech choice. As someone pointed out, however, it can be very risky.. proper timing is going to be very important.
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Ultras could use a damage buff for sure. They should at least be able to oneshot marines. In my mind when a ground army sees an ultra coming they should want to run the other way and start a tech switch to air.
My suggestion: Increase Ultra damage to 40 +5 w/ each upgrade and have them do some very low radius splash.
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Probably been discussed before but I wonder why they nerfed the +3 armor upgrade to only +2 in SC2
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There is a simple reason why ultralisks are useless. Their role in SC2 has been stolen.
In BW ultralisks were incredibly important because thy had enough health to eat damage while your insanely damaging cracklings got in position to attack.
In Sc2
1. Crackings are far less effective.
2. There is no dark swarm to boost melee units.
3. There is another unit with exactly the same role: the Roach, and its ranged at tier 1.5.
number 3 is the big one.
In sc2 Roaches are the meat shields and Hydras are the glass cannons, the melee tree is pretty obsolete.
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On April 09 2010 04:25 zazen wrote:Probably been discussed before but I wonder why they nerfed the +3 armor upgrade to only +2 in SC2
it was +2 in BW
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Zerg relies on numbers to win. As such, I agree with both:
1 - shrink the Ultralisk a bit closer to sc1 size
2 - let small units walk under it.
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On April 09 2010 04:10 BanelingXD wrote:
Ultras could use a damage buff for sure. They should at least be able to oneshot marines. In my mind when a ground army sees an ultra coming they should want to run the other way and start a tech switch to air.
My suggestion: Increase Ultra damage to 40 +5 w/ each upgrade and have them do some very low radius splash.
You do realize that ultras have splash damage? Plus, their splash is considerably bigger then that of any other sc2 unit with splash. Their DPS is about the same as that of the colossus, but they can tank instead of reliably hitting from afar.
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they can in fact attack over a zerglings shoulder, making ling/ultra incredibly powerful. Maybe this is situational?
This is not situational. It is the result of a fact that ultras have a range attack of 1. You can check it here : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ultralisk
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maybe they are useless, maybe they aren't.. Maybe us zerg players need to tech to fast ultras. Like two base into ultra.
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Lategame -> after using broodlords and forcing your opponent into air to air or ground to air units the switch to ultra will be brutal.
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So many responses, so many people without beta keys.
That or copper players.
If you don't understand the problem with ultras vs broodlords overlap then please just don't post.
Corrupters lead to lords. If you don't have air superiority with corrupters as a zerg then you have lost the matchup whether ultras are on the field or not because this just clued in...ultras dont attack air.
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I played a game today using ultras, infestors, hydras, and 1 queen that i had extra by accident. Transfusion worked really well on ultras. ~50plat, but i don't consider myself that good, but i suspect having 2 queens and 4 ultras with ur army can be worthwhile, even without the armor upgrade.
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I used to use Ultras a fair amount and ended up winning most games where I got them. However, nowadays I cant even survive until hive tech against T or P (either i win first or i lose first).
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There should be a speed buff for the ultralisk, it's slow move speed is what is crippling it. Other then that its a good unit but marauders, immortals and thors/siege tanks mega rape them.
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they should at least have a toggle to deal splash damage 20 or a single damage headbutt. imagine using ultralisks headbutt versus colossus/thor and other heavy non swarm units
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On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
Lets discuss ultralisk
From what i seen and my experience noone actually uses ultras even late game. And there is thouthands of reasons why:
1) its Hive tech. Once you get hive tech, why no to make BL instead?
2) Ultra is VERY big. little less than thor. Are you ready for such big ass?
3) Ultra deals pathetic 20dmg. Well maybe he attacks once per every 0,6 seconds or so, its not too bad, but definately not too much something over exciting. I believe 4 zerligns can deal more dps than 1 ultra
Even with buildings his 60 attack cant be much comparedto Immortal
4) He is tankish, thats good. 600 hp its like battlecruiser; same goes for armor. he can survive lots of marines.
But who uses marines that much?
another, and maybe biggest problem of this "tank" is that he actually have "armored" type, which means most army combinations should own him, i.e. M&M/Immos/stalkers +wow sentries // and wll yeah not amror bonused but pure masses of roachers/hydras in paper.
5) without upogrades he is really LOL, i think even maradeurs can kite him?
so only use for him "in paper" is just a some meat shield instead/with roachers to take out some zealotos or ltake 2-3 shoots from M&M balls while your hydras killing enemies.
whats your opinions? have you tried this guy and it worked good for you?
//my rank is ~60 plat at the moment.
Very situationally usefull when combined with fungal growth he does alot of havoc, problem is that he fulfills the same role as roach and costs alot more / does not benefit from missile attaks. Only thing he really is good at is destroying buildings. My rank is silver ;p
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Nearly everything an Ultra does, the broodlord does better?
Meatshield? Broodlords create dozens of Zerglings to block units for your hydra/roach army. Why spend the money on Ultras, which are literally only good vs mass ling/marine/zealot armies, when they will have roach/hydra, marauder/thor, or immortals?
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I think that Ultras would becoume a lot better if:
1.) They get a little bit smaller so they dont block each other and get stuck in the rest of your army
2.) Get a little speed boost standart and after upgrade
I think they do acceptable dmg to small units because they have a big splash but on the other hand they die so fast to rauders and immortals that most of the time its just a waste of money because they are so expensive. Also they are hard to get in the right position because they always block each other and glitch out especially in narrow places.
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I mean they could theoretically be decent against Protoss, but Broodlords almost win games singlehandedly against Protoss, so why wouldnt you get them at tier 3
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Couldn't you just combine ultralisks and the MIA lurkers? Some kinda lurkalisk? Or just give the ultra upgrades to attack and move while burrowed, then lings could run on top of them to curb the size limitations, they'd be harder to focus fire down because it's harder to spot burrowed units in the middle of a fight (if they even had a detector) and you could micro them under enemy blobs to force the opponent to choose between taking the full splash attacks or microing away/apart which makes them easier to surround with zerglings and roaches. It would make detection vZ more important then it is now in all match ups, as it is the only reason to get detectors against zerg is to watch for roach or infestor sneak bys or burrowed baneling traps, none of which really happen too much.
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edit: someone earlier said something like this
I got an idea to make Ultralisks fun and useful. Anyone play l4d2? Give Ultralisks the CHARGE ability. It will increase it's speed in one direction(cannot turn) and literally push its way through all friendly units right into the enemy army (disorienting the enemy army) dealing AOE splash damage intially and then they can begin to actually rape.
This ability buffs ultralisk by doing two things
1) increase speed into combat
2) deals AOE damage depending on balance
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A buff you could give them, is change their armor type to something different, like "heroic" or "fortified" and negate units damage bonus on it. That would further the lifespan of the ultralisk and make it usable as a huge ass tank.
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zergling - small ultralisk
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On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
Lets discuss ultralisk
2) Ultra is VERY big. little less than thor. Are you ready for such big ass?
I am ready for big ass.
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they need a speed buff for their regular run speed, they need to have a slight ranged attack of .5, and they need to stay alive for longer than 2 seconds against units like marauders. damage output isnt' really a problem cuz they deal splash. I would like to see a "fortified" armor type for buildings, and then just give that to the ultra.
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Don't think of ultralisks in the same manner as ultralisks in scbw. Ultralisks are now a specialized unit instead of a generalized unit. It is no longer the case to mass ultras late game. Ultras counter zerglings and zealots. In some video, it showed one ultra mowing down nearly 800 lings and it didn't die. Ultras are super strong vs Zealots as well. If your opponent is mass melee. A few ultras are game winning.
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Just throwing out a suggestion didn't give it a whole lotta thought but what if they spawned with a "Zealot like charge" ability, it makes lots viable late game why not ultras
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On April 23 2010 00:53 PanzerDragoon wrote:
Broodlords almost win games singlehandedly against Protoss
That's the biggest roadblock for ultras.
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In my opinion the Ultralisk, like most SC units, is very situational, even though they do get thwarted fairly easily, they are still the best melee unit in the game hands down. When they get in close, the damage splashes like its nobody's business, however you are correct that BL's are just a much more solid unit and trump the Ultralisks.
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You're forgetting how fast they die to marauders. They don't get in close, they just die.
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Ultras are still pretty useful in ZvT. I prefer them over BL for late game finishers because vikings eat up BL. I just wish either their speed upgrade was built-in or at least the speed upgrade made them move faster than they do now.
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:-P LOL
Ultra's have ONE use that I've found, meat shielding for hydra...That's it...2 ultras and 12 hydra will roll over most ground forces, EXCEPT, terran who spend their gas massing Medivacs and marauders instead of tech...
UNLESS, blizzard gets smart and makes thors count as buildings.........then ultras would counter thors.
And to counter the contention that they counter zealots 1 Broodlord will do 2x against zealots that cannot hit it that an ultra can do to them...
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I think ultras are too big for what they do. An ultra as big as a zerling would own ofc.
I just have the feeling if there were 4-5 roaches or roach/hydra it would do much more than one ultra.
They block my whole army, are too slow, get focused down, and die without nearly anything done. Then when they´re dead the rest of my army can do its work..
Thors are big yeah, but they arent melee.
Colossi are big, but they arent melee. And in addition require no space at all because everything else just clusters beneath them. LOL. I really think thats a huge difference. Imagine flying ultras slaughtering with their claws from air to the ground, directly supported from hydras in the same spot.
Ok that isnt an option ofc, but just imagine how much more powerfull they would be.
Its really important to concentrate you damage. Your damage per space. And in this ultras are really bad.
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Its usefull if your opponent only goes basic units like zealots or marines or zerglings it is so counter speficic that it's not even usable in sc2 just like the lurker that was pointed out in the newest post here on TL.net it just doesnt fit. Right if you go nothing but zerg\baneling all game and only those grades all game they are viable. But who does that? You need anti air, you need diversion in your army in this game. This ain't SCBW and you can't just port units all the time. The sooner that Blizzard can see this the better!
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Oh, putting 10 spine crawlers on the back of each ultralisk would be awesome too.
This is such an awesome idea.
Not 10, but two maybe. Maybe you could choose spore crawlers if you wanted, or something similar.
I'd like to see ultras regenerate a lot faster and do more damage, that would fix them.
ETA: Maybe even just increase their splash damage radius to be really stupid large, like nuke large.
ETA,A: Wait, I've got it! Make ultra give a buff to any zerg units near him (pylon field size) that increases regeneration by 1.5x
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EPT
