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On April 07 2010 05:52 Defrag wrote:
They are so useless...
Thats the problem with Zerg's units. They have less ( just 9, compared to 12 of P and T ) units, and Ultralisks are pretty much useless as well :D The only reason to get hive now is Broodlord, or Upgrades. You wont be getting hive to upgrade roaches regeneration anymore ( nerfed to the ground ), zerglings attack speed ( worthless crap at this point in the game, and very expensive ) , or Ultralisks ( they suck so badly I prefer to make 4 roaches all day long instead of 1 ultralisk. ).
The fact that they are insanely slow even after upgrade, very big ( try having 5-6 of them in a large supply battle, they will most likely get stuck with the current maps and chokes everywhere ), and they need 2 upgrades + another building to be usefull, lol.
People actually got the roach regeneration to begin with? I only know of them getting the move-burrow and some other ability roaches have. Never saw the regeneration used so I ignored the nerf when I was watching games as players never actually got it.
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They should start with the +2 armor, just remove that upgrade from the game completely. There's absolutely no situation where you'd want to use an ultralisk without that upgrade, so what's the point of making it an upgrade?
Also, the +armored units in almost every composition make the armor useless anyway. Get rid of the armored type -- Make the ultralisk "Massive, Biological".
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they seem more like a map control unit to me, rather than a base assaulter. when an opponent goes to attack your expo, and sees it has 3-4 ultras and some spores/spines, he might think twice before running right in. also good for sniping expos.
but, i play terran, so i dont really know.
ravens <3
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I think just dropping the 'armored' tag would fix em right up.
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It seems like it's a little bit lacking in it's use-variety compared to the Colossus and Thor.
The Thor has it's special ability that, while situational, can be used very effectively. It also has two attack types which makes it slightly more useful too.
The Colossus has it's cliff-walking ability that presents a massive variety of uses and purposes. The range upgrade also gives a very tangible boost to the unit.
On the other hand, the Ultra is just a big melee unit that can only really a-move and doesn't present too much in the way of variety.
I don't want to complain too much about the Ultra, as I do still enjoy using it (although I only really use them in 2v2s), but I just feel that it could use a tiny bit more...something. Whatever that 'something' may be.
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On April 07 2010 05:01 chinaski.chinaski wrote:
... Are you ready for such big ass? ...
No, I am not ready for such big ass.
But seriously, I rarely see ultras used against me as Terran, because generally they're completely not needed. At this state in the game I've usually lost to a mass of banelings anyway.
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BW : zerg goes ling -> muta, with +1 melee. easy transition to go Ultralisks late game to use that upgrade again and with dark swarm, melee gets a huge buff.
SC2: quick roach -> hydra getting +2 range/+1 armor. ultralisks don't synergize at all. Why spend a lot of money to upgrade ultralisks, when you can make more roaches that are equally tanky, you can make more, for less?
I think Zerg is going to need another unit that is either really good melee that people get upgrades for, or something that buffs melee units. Ultralisks are not good enough by themselves. Maybe giving it some sort of aoe attack, apart from cleave, that slows down units in a small aoe. Like a marauder only in a small radius. Its not worth the mineral/gas to get a straight tank that isn't that good against anything other than tier 1 units.
Whoever said ground units should be able to walk underneath Ultralisks, good point. I agree, zerglings and roaches should be able to walk under ultralisks.
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On April 07 2010 05:53 SevenAteNine wrote:
no mention of ultras splash damage or their ability to headbutt buildings? ultras and extremly effective vs zealots lings and marine comps
[...]
I would really consider getting ultras vs a protoss who seems to be favoring heavv zealot play
Really? You'd consider getting Ultras vs all these Protosses who favor mass Zealots?
How many are that. 1 in 1000000 in Copper League?
I also don't get why many people tend to say he's awesome to take down buildings. I mean his second attack is extremely slow and when you got 3 Hydras, 4 Roaches or 10 Lings attacking they'll take it down just as fast.
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I don't play zerg so maybe I'm wrong but the last time I saw ultralisks, the guy sent 2 of them leading the charge of his whole army. They soaked up all the damage from my tanks, PF and MMM ball while the zerglings and hydras munched on everything that moved.
Ultras are meatshields more than anything else.
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On April 07 2010 06:49 Krowser wrote:
I don't play zerg so maybe I'm wrong but the last time I saw ultralisks, the guy sent 2 of them leading the charge of his whole army. They soaked up all the damage from my tanks, PF and MMM ball while the zerglings and hydras munched on everything that moved.
Ultras are meatshields more than anything else.
Stimpacked MMM ball should rape 2 ultras in max 3s.
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Too expensive, not that good....I don't really have much to say about ultras, except that nobody ever really expects them.
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The best suggestion I can come up with is to give them the pathing of colossi, but without the cliffwalking. That way they would actually be able to attack in conjunction with lings instead of dicking around trying to move around that 1 ling blocking the way to the swarm of zealots or MM.
That, or remove armored, but thats probably not going to happen.
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On April 07 2010 07:12 Alsn wrote:
The best suggestion I can come up with is to give them the pathing of colossi, but without the cliffwalking. That way they would actually be able to attack in conjunction with lings instead of dicking around trying to move around that 1 ling blocking the way to the swarm of zealots or MM.
That, or remove armored, but thats probably not going to happen.
yes lets do that so I dont have to micro.....
ultras are fine no reason at all to tinker with them.
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On April 07 2010 07:16 arnold(soTa) wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 07:12 Alsn wrote:
The best suggestion I can come up with is to give them the pathing of colossi, but without the cliffwalking. That way they would actually be able to attack in conjunction with lings instead of dicking around trying to move around that 1 ling blocking the way to the swarm of zealots or MM.
That, or remove armored, but thats probably not going to happen. yes lets do that so I dont have to micro..... ultras are fine no reason at all to tinker with them.
lol ultras are garbage. they are basically only useful for humiliation purposes, when you want to show your opponent that u have the whole map and can afford to waste loads of gas/mins on useless units. Its like a huge "gtfo already" when u build them
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yeahh.. ultras seem to blow pretty badly. i think they just need more armor or like a charge skill thing even.
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Actually if you value minerals : gas as 1 : 1 (I personally think 1 : 2 is more appropriate), you get 20 zerglings for one ultralisk. Larvae shouldn't be an issue at this point. If your opponent is Marauder heavy, those lings will tank WAY better than an Ultralisk could. Against tanks it's a different case because of the splash. But lings will cose up much faster and the tanks will start hitting other terran units.
Ultras mainly do well against armies that mostly consist of Marines. But as long as you don't get a lot of Mutas there is no reason for the terran mass Marines. And if you spend that much gas on air you won't have much left for Ultras.
If I were ever to build Ultras, I would get the Zerglings in first to tank until the Ultras close into the hopefully fungal'd army. With their splash, Ultras seem to be great damage dealers, but because they are so slow and countered so hard I wouldn't send them in first.
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On April 07 2010 06:04 rrowland wrote:
They should start with the +2 armor, just remove that upgrade from the game completely. There's absolutely no situation where you'd want to use an ultralisk without that upgrade, so what's the point of making it an upgrade?
Also, the +armored units in almost every composition make the armor useless anyway. Get rid of the armored type -- Make the ultralisk "Massive, Biological".
The "armored" type almost feels like some kind of inside joke. "Armored" is actually a huge disadvantage to have on any unit. Taking it off a unit represents a huge buff.
I think Blizzard should have realized that the Ultralisk from BW is not gonna work in SC2. In BW, do Zerg use Ultralisks against mech? They shouldn't because it's a bad idea. They use it against bio because marine damage per hit is low. This makes the +5 armor on Ultras a huge deal.
Now switch to SC2. Yeah the Ultra has really kickass AOE damage, but it just gets dominated with or without its armor upgrade. Everything does so much damage that I feel like the Ultra would have to START with +4-5 armor and upgrade to +9-10 armor (and that still would do jack against Immortals). The damage per hit on many units is just too big for armor values to matter.
This is just one of the examples where I feel that the Zerg race is showing its lack of polish in comparison to the Protoss and Terran. The implementation of the Ultra is just a head-scratcher. It's a glass cannon against small-health massed units - a glass cannon.
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My dirty little secret is that I've been going ultra every game that reaches hive (not zvz). And I've won every single one (where I've spawned at least one ultra). That generally only happens with protoss, but I've been meaning to try it with terran more often.
Against protoss what usually happens is they see I'm not going muta, so they throw down a robo or two, and start pumping collosus because those chew up roaches and hydras. But the problem is that collosus are ass against ultra ling. They can kill lings, but ultras are fast enough to chase them around and they take a lot of hits, and when they are almost dead, I just micro them out or even back to my natural for healing, so they don't even get the satisfaction. Spawns half a dozen immortals? They'll be lucky to get a single kill before they are swamped by lings.
I think the problem is that no one is getting them early and no one is ever upgrading them at all. Everyone loves spending 1200 gas on mutas, but I'd rather have 6 ultras than 12 mutas, personally. Getting 3 ultras 20 minutes into the game when there your opponent is +3 and there are 60 marauders on the field is pointless. But if you get a couple early, it can swing the battle really fast in your direction because they'll rip through all gateway units and assist greatly taking out medium infantry as well.
So usually what I do is get hive, and immediately get +1/+1 (I don't bother with range), by the time the first ultra pops out I'll be nearly +2/+4 and I'll have adrenal and speed for zergilngs. Then I just run over everything. So what if they focus my ultras, that just lets the lings lay waste to everything.
Edit: I should also say that I was an ultra hater a few weeks ago but now I'm converted, at least in the ZvP matchup.
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I can agree that Ultras right now are pretty useless. I have played some 100 1v1 games with zerg and never had a reason to use them. The only time you can possibly use them is really late guy, but even at that point, with spawn larva you can just macro the hell out of hydras and roaches to stay at 200 and end a game faster than switching to ultras, which hog your supply. Maybe if I ever have to face a army of 10 thors and 10 tanks I will need to ultra and brood lord, but who will ever let that happen.
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ultras are fine, stop tinkering with parts of the game that work and go fix the broken shit instead... there are loads
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EPT
