EPT[D] Zerg vs Zerg is broken - Page 5
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Thiria
Sweden21 Posts
If I dont want to lose my exp and lost half my zergling production capacity I need to defeat this attack. (The +1 attack is not yet finished at this time, not for me neither on the replays in the first post). After watching some of my replays to find out if there was some window where I had forces and he hadn´t to explore a really early rush with my first 8? 10? zerglings I found out that there are pretty much none. If I take my first zerglings and run for it (without speed at this point) I will arrive at around when his first set of 3-4 roaches pop out and I will be decimated. Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?mxmxjijmtnl (Im losing an overlord to his queen cause Im bad, but even with it I dont think I would have survived his first attack) Would really appreciate tips to help counter this. | ||
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Werezerg
Germany62 Posts
On March 30 2010 22:15 Tyrran wrote: Wouldn't this fail to the first ling attack ( with speed only, no +1a) as you will only have very few roaches to defend ? Or if your very early evo+roach warden is scouted, you could die to a even earlier attack ( before speed) I think the timing for the upgrade as the 'roach player' is very important as you have less gas than the 'speedling' player. I also think than +1c is better than +1a for roaches, at least against me because i tend to go +1/+1 before +2/+0. ( I tech to lair just after starting then carapace upg, then add a 2nd evo and more gas). 1 ling zerg tried this, i had about 6 roaches at this time, he had maybe 26 lings. i had my roaches in my eco line and attack with eco+queen and roaches as soon as he run in, i easily defeated his lings, and took the game. maybe a faster attack would have been more successful. with +1attack vs +1 armor on roaches, i think +1attack is better for timing push because ling zerg will not have 1/1 here. probably he will have 0/0. +1 carap will be better for a bit longer macro game with expansion. but i prefer the timing push, because the ling player could use mutalisks and own me or pump drones faster than me and have better eco+faster expansion.. | ||
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Leoj
United States396 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
You'll obviously tech to lair at 50% of +1 attacks and tech straight to +2 attacks. If you get +1 at the timing I do it will be done quite a bit before the ling player's +1. Your +2 will probably even be almost done when he gets +1/+1. Early double upgrades are a huge investment (150 more gas equals 150-200 less minerals, together with drone + evo that's around 300 minerals). And in case you get some scouting done you can just get the carapace upgrade too. | ||
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SirNukes
18 Posts
On March 30 2010 21:59 spinesheath wrote: +1 attack on roaches is better than +1 carapace. Reason: You will always try to keep your roaches in tight areas and clumped so that all roaches can attack at the same time and lings can't hit all of them at once. Carapace would only give an advantage to the roaches that are under attack. By that logic, +1 attack only gives you a damage boost on the lings that you are attacking while +1 armor gives a damage nerf to their entire ling army. Really, the two are equivalent on that point -- either lings die faster or roaches die faster (if only buying one upgrade). I agree with the rest though, such as attack giving extra free ling kills before they close to melee. | ||
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
If the opponent went 10 pool, you're dead as stated in the OP. At least with a 13 pool opening you will survive a 10 pool. Also, that spiel about keeping the roach z in base is true, but I question the time frame. I have faced speedling expo zvz before, but it really doesn't take long for me to break out going speedroach sans lair, keeping enough roaches at home to defend the backstab. The number of ling that are produced are a huge drone cutting investment on the ling Z side and the recovery timing seems really harsh since that's just about when roach Z can just roll out. Mind you, this instance was on scrap station with that longass path. I don't know how +1 speedlings would pan out, though, in terms of timing and killing power. I do know that plain speedlings get denied by a relatively small number of roaches + queen at home. Perhaps a quicker roach transition with possible spine crawler support on the speedling side and an earlier pool for security? | ||
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ukshi
Norway6 Posts
Now lings were useless. | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
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lepape
Canada557 Posts
On March 30 2010 23:50 spinesheath wrote: You'll obviously tech to lair at 50% of +1 attacks and tech straight to +2 attacks. If you get +1 at the timing I do it will be done quite a bit before the ling player's +1. Your +2 will probably even be almost done when he gets +1/+1. Early double upgrades are a huge investment (150 more gas equals 150-200 less minerals, together with drone + evo that's around 300 minerals). And in case you get some scouting done you can just get the carapace upgrade too. I was talking about double evos upgrades here, not one upgrade after the other. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On March 31 2010 06:59 lepape wrote: I was talking about double evos upgrades here, not one upgrade after the other. Even then you're getting a later pool (still talking about fe into lings I guess?), later gas, spend your first 100 gas on ling speed and probably don't get a second geysir. It'll take a while until you get that second upgrade running. I do 13 pool, 15 gas, first 100 gas into +1 ranged. +2 ideally starts right after +1 finished. +1 ranged thus always is done faster than +1 melee. You should easily be able to sit back and defend during the small timing window where +1/+1 is done and +2 isn't. I haven't had such a case yet though. | ||
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Titilisk
96 Posts
My feeling about this "Zerglings rule ZvZ" is the following : I used to think, few days ago that the ZvP was easy, and that was right. Going glings in ZvP used to be the way to easywin all my matchs. But come on, no one knew how to create a zerlingproof base. Just a matter of time, in my opinion, and everyone will find a way to counter zerglings. Now that I have a nice building placement in PvZ, in never loose to any glings strategy. The one/two canons are simply indestructible, unless you kill a forge or a gateway first, and the counter timing attack with +1zealots is too powerful for the Z to handle. It works so well that I'm now always winning against a Z going zerglings, as I used to always win with this particular strategy in ZvP. Ironic, don't you think ? I do feel it will be the same very soon in ZvZ (glings vs roaches) : Spine crawlers have been nicely buffed, and having a nice simcity as a Zerg isn't that hard to get either. So don't worry you'll loose to roaches again, and maybe (hopefully) to some new strategies. And come on, don't create some thread showing "how the hell I'm just too good" as well as streaming. At least without stream, I could have imagine that was right. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On March 30 2010 22:38 Thiria wrote: After checking the replays in the first post in this thread I tried this myself. The problem for me is when the other zerg player is going pure roaches, not starting off with zerglings for early defense. This means he will have 12 roaches in my base at around 6.30 - 7.00, with 4 more coming 30sec later, where I do not have the required ~40 +0/+0 zerglings to take it down. If I dont want to lose my exp and lost half my zergling production capacity I need to defeat this attack. (The +1 attack is not yet finished at this time, not for me neither on the replays in the first post). After watching some of my replays to find out if there was some window where I had forces and he hadn´t to explore a really early rush with my first 8? 10? zerglings I found out that there are pretty much none. If I take my first zerglings and run for it (without speed at this point) I will arrive at around when his first set of 3-4 roaches pop out and I will be decimated. Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?mxmxjijmtnl (Im losing an overlord to his queen cause Im bad, but even with it I dont think I would have survived his first attack) Would really appreciate tips to help counter this. Even though this guy only has 1 post, I'm going to say it's a hell of a first post cause he's pretty spot on. Any time I see speedling FE I push out as such, careful to not lose any roaches if possible, and just force him to make lings, not drones. Basically you can abuse range and better hp to snipe some lings and run back and forth and contain. Eventually you get to a critical point of roaches where you can just overpower him. If he tries to backstab with lings you can use your roaches you just produced to keep you from dying, and completely overrun his front and win. If he tries to tech to muta you can overrun him and win. | ||
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Raelcun
United States3747 Posts
On March 31 2010 07:24 Titilisk wrote: I have to confess, I was interested by this post. I used to think about going glings in ZvZ, so I read this one carefully. And then I tried your BO, and yes it worked, but still... wasn't too sure about the "Glings rule everything so the game is soooo bad, ZvZ will be only tier1 units, I want to die" and so on. I even watched your stream today, but wasn't really amazed by the level of your opponents. My feeling about this "Zerglings rule ZvZ" is the following : I used to think, few days ago that the ZvP was easy, and that was right. Going glings in ZvP used to be the way to easywin all my matchs. But come on, no one knew how to create a zerlingproof base. Just a matter of time, in my opinion, and everyone will find a way to counter zerglings. Now that I have a nice building placement in PvZ, in never loose to any glings strategy. The one/two canons are simply indestructible, unless you kill a forge or a gateway first, and the counter timing attack with +1zealots is too powerful for the Z to handle. It works so well that I'm now always winning against a Z going zerglings, as I used to always win with this particular strategy in ZvP. Ironic, don't you think ? I do feel it will be the same very soon in ZvZ (glings vs roaches) : Spine crawlers have been nicely buffed, and having a nice simcity as a Zerg isn't that hard to get either. So don't worry you'll loose to roaches again, and maybe (hopefully) to some new strategies. And come on, don't create some thread showing "how the hell I'm just too good" as well as streaming. At least without stream, I could have imagine that was right. This isnt some brag thread about how I'm so awesome yada yada I only need to use lings, the point is I'm not the best player in the world and with someone on the top levels of play with really good mechanics abusing this it gets much harder to stop. I was playing around with it some more today and the spine crawler buff both helps/hurts this build because if you're in trouble vs roaches the crawlers hold them back much easier but at he same time if your opponent throws up a few crawlers they do a lot more damage to your zerglings since they do more damage and fire faster now. So I think that helps fix this partly but theres still a point where if I didn't just eff up the build early I can get in kill his queen pick off some drones and then pull back with the majority of my speedlings and still be safe while defending my expo. Keep scouting him very well wait to see when they expand and then you attack either still with lings or switching to roaches or hydras. Most of the time it doesn't even get that far though. Like I said the static defense buffs will help fix this slightly but it also helps the player going zerglings holding off the first big roach push. | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
20 damage took 2 hits to kill a ling, 25 damage takes two hits. 20 damage and one roach attack will kill a ling, 25 damage and one roach attack will kill a ling. The damage buff vs unarmored does not affect Lings in the least. Technically speaking, the increase in attackspeed helps equally against Ling and Roach. However, comparing equal supply: 1 Roach = Takes 6 Spine hits to kill. Slow and has a hard time running past defending units or spines. 4 Lings = Takes 8 Spine hits to kill. Fast and able to run straight through defending units and past spines. Clearly the spine buff is much better anti-Roach than anti-Ling. | ||
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TopHat
United States12 Posts
Roach is about equivalent to 4 lings in resource cost though. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
On March 30 2010 12:38 LUE.Leoj wrote: I just played a few games like this, ended each with something like 100+ Zerglings. One question though - how many Drones do you get, roughly? I find on two hatch/two queen I'm accumulating more minerals than I can spend so I'm assuming I'm building too many but I'd like to hear what other people use. Once you have an extra 300 minerals take a third base and add a third queen. | ||
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
Also, just a thought, what about sniping the hatch at some opportune point in the game? =P If the other player went roach and move out with minimal backstab defense, is it possible to just straight kill the hatch? | ||
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
On March 31 2010 10:54 zomgzergrush wrote: Wait, are people on this build going pure ling and teching straight to muta? Also, just a thought, what about sniping the hatch at some opportune point in the game? =P If the other player went roach and move out with minimal backstab defense, is it possible to just straight kill the hatch? thats typically what i try to do. if they go roach into expo. you can easily kill the expo. sniping a queen is very easy also. and yea. basic idea is get to mutas asap. build may even evolve into skipping the +1 and going straight mutas like BW. it's kind of unnecessary i feel. i kill roaches with pure lings in multiple engagements before +1 is done. speed makes the most difference. | ||
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Antpile
United States213 Posts
On March 31 2010 11:00 MavercK wrote: thats typically what i try to do. if they go roach into expo. you can easily kill the expo. sniping a queen is very easy also. and yea. basic idea is get to mutas asap. build may even evolve into skipping the +1 and going straight mutas like BW. it's kind of unnecessary i feel. i kill roaches with pure lings in multiple engagements before +1 is done. speed makes the most difference. I dunno, +1 attack on the lings is pretty key with this strat. As long as the roach user didn't rush his +1 attack upgrade too fast, your lings will be superior long enough to get an expansion or muta. +1 attack on lings makes them kill a roach with like 12 less hits, which is a big deal. The problem, however, is if he rushes +1 attack on his roaches he now 2 shots zerglings instead of 3 shotting them, which then puts the advantage back in his court. Overall, I find the speedling strat too risky to be worth it. Sure, it is fun to catch someone off guard with it now and then, but there are too many ways for it to leave you way behind. | ||
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