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tried this tonight
after last night being SO FED UP WITH ZvZ. i decide to try fresh tonight and lol at the results
i played 3 games so far and all ZvZ. does everyone on the god damn ladder play Zerg? seriously? im playing like 90% ZvZs in the last couple of days.
anyway. rushing speedings with +1 attack decimates roaches. i generally do a timing attack right as speed finishes (if hes going speedling i hope mine was faster. catching him off guard. otherwise i'll catch him with 3-6 roaches and thats easy to kill) i generally can't finish him with this attack however. a second push comes at the +1 attack. which generally ends the game as i can just pump lings and rally them into his faster faster than he can make roaches.
now. what i actually like about this build. is it's viable to go muta after ling just like in brood war. but you dont rush spire like in BW (or maybe we will in time when people stop trying to use roaches in ZvZ)
i dont have an exact build order.
but the general idea is simply
14-hatch
14-pool
13-gas
15/16-overlord
get a ling or two. get atleast one queen. i try to get 2 (1 at main, 1 at nat)
pump lings from main (nat if you feel like hes rushing or something, otherwise just drones there)
100 gas - ling speed
put down a evo chamber soon after. you want to start +1 attack as soon as your next 100 gas (unsure of the exact timing of this, im not heaps pro. just a low-platinum-player)
now you should be able to safely build drones off your natural and pump zerglings from your main. attack at ling speed and again at +1 attack
some people like to take drones off gas after they have both researching. i leave them in and try to get lair as soon as the next 100 gas and then a spire
after dropping spire i throw up 3 gas (1 at main and 2 at nat) giving me 4 gas. minerals should be decently saturated.
then just pump muta/ling
get +2 attack if you feel like it. or +1 carapace it's all upto you
3 REPLAYS
heres replays showing it. i really only went for the spire on the Steppes of War game. as this is the first time i was trying it. my opponent tried to turtle in and go hydras? i guess he wanted to go roach/hydra (against lings? who knows why. he probably saw my mutas but still hydras would be horrible to counter mutaling. i dunno)
replays might not have been up against best of the best and no-one tried to counter me with banelings. but even still the baneling counter to me. you'd have to scout mass ling very early and be ready for it. as like i've stated. you can get a lair/spire out fairly easily and not be behind in army/econ (infact you should be ahead since you can expand extremly safely and deny him from expanding)
anyway. i know most people see this as just going from mass roach wars to mass ling wars. but ATLEAST. with this strategy you can move onto mutas at the very least. you wont see 30 minute long building gigantic amounts of roaches just because you need more roaches than he does. waiting for that moment when he tries to go hydras so you can step on him with your number advantage.
*EDIT*
i should note this build gets decimated by 6 pool or any type of cheese early all in rush
(i didn't proof read this or anything. kinda rambling i know. but this is my 2 cents.)
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so this is what you do, get speed, burrow, and +1 attack on roaches (so they 2 hit lings). In this order. Keep massing up roaches at your ramp, get a bling nest. Make a few lings (6 or so), possibly place a crawler in your mineral line. Burrow some blings around the crawler and places where the lings will jam up, under you queen etc.
Really the only threat when dealing with mass speedlings is the counter attack, and even after they do that they can do a bit of damage and return to defend since they are so much faster than roaches. But if you want to, bring a few blings with your roach army. Like seriously, only 2 is all you need if you've been massing roaches.
PS- if he's still on tier 1 and/or has no detection, it's not a bad idea to get burrow movement. Not only does it allow you to sneak attack upon completion, but it lets your roaches that got overwhelmed just burrow away and heal in the process. And ofc, lings can't surround them anymore.
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replay? 
it's not hard to constantly downsize his roaches and most players will try a early rush with 2-4 roaches when they notice your FE. those of which get destroyed by early lings. this build also lets you get quite fast mutas.
i guess there would be a specific timing window for roaches. enough of them when the spire first pops (maybe abit before then?)
and like people have said. if you see banelings you can set them off with a small portion of your ling army
either strat is up in the air i guess.
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Seems very easy to fix without unbalancing the rest of the game. Make lings run slower on opponents creep, that way you could micro the roaches to defend. And thus the attacker would lose his advantage.
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On March 30 2010 19:13 Paladia wrote:
Seems very easy to fix without unbalancing the rest of the game. Make lings run slower on opponents creep, that way you could micro the roaches to defend. And thus the attacker would lose his advantage.
Then you'd have to have "opponent's creep". The concept doesn't exist in any version of Starcraft.
Ground has either got creep on it or not. Nobody owns the creep.
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On March 30 2010 19:17 Funchucks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2010 19:13 Paladia wrote:
Seems very easy to fix without unbalancing the rest of the game. Make lings run slower on opponents creep, that way you could micro the roaches to defend. And thus the attacker would lose his advantage. Then you'd have to have "opponent's creep". The concept doesn't exist in any version of Starcraft. Ground has either got creep on it or not. Nobody owns the creep. Well, if it fixes it and makes the game more interesting in ZvZ I'm all for it. Lots of bigger concepts were reinvented with BW, such as merging Protoss and Zerg, Ghost and Zerg (Kerrigan) and so on. Even the DT (which was suppose to hate the Protoss) somehow managed to join the fight.
Even the Warp Gates (which were all destroyed in BW) managed to somehow be in SC2, so I doubt adding opponent creep would ruin any great concept.
ZvZ is completely messed up in terms of lore to begin with (as the zerg shares one mind).
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ZvZ is completely messed up in terms of lore to begin with (as the zerg shares one mind).
not since the overmind fell
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i won a lot of games against zerglings with fast +1 attack roaches ->2hits for a ling.
maybe my opponents sucked. do you think this is not working against good players?
i upgraded it very early with about my first 100 gas. so i should be able to attack before he has +1 on his lings.
or maybe double upgraded and attack a bit later?
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On March 30 2010 19:06 CharlieMurphy wrote:
so this is what you do, get speed, burrow, and +1 attack on roaches (so they 2 hit lings). In this order. Keep massing up roaches at your ramp, get a bling nest. Make a few lings (6 or so), possibly place a crawler in your mineral line. Burrow some blings around the crawler and places where the lings will jam up, under you queen etc.
Really the only threat when dealing with mass speedlings is the counter attack, and even after they do that they can do a bit of damage and return to defend since they are so much faster than roaches. But if you want to, bring a few blings with your roach army. Like seriously, only 2 is all you need if you've been massing roaches.
PS- if he's still on tier 1 and/or has no detection, it's not a bad idea to get burrow movement. Not only does it allow you to sneak attack upon completion, but it lets your roaches that got overwhelmed just burrow away and heal in the process. And ofc, lings can't surround them anymore.
+1 carapace is just better agaisnt lings, considering the other player could just go double upgrades melee/carapace agaisnt +1 range roaches. But there's absolutely nothing he can do against +1 carapace roaches, except building roaches himself.
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On March 30 2010 20:11 lepape wrote:
+1 carapace is just better agaisnt lings, considering the other player could just go double upgrades melee/carapace agaisnt +1 range roaches. But there's absolutely nothing he can do against +1 carapace roaches, except building roaches himself.
thats wrong. +1attack on lings will negate the +1 carap on the roaches. its just the same as +1 carap on lings vs +1 attack on roaches.
so the question is, if lings have no upgrade, is +1 attack or +1 carap on roaches better?
+1 attack -> 2 hits instead of 3 hits
+1 carap -> 2dmg instead of 3? (dont know the numbers exactly)
That would look quite equal. i would say +1 attack is a little bit better because of range -> roaches attack first.
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On March 30 2010 20:28 Werezerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2010 20:11 lepape wrote:
+1 carapace is just better agaisnt lings, considering the other player could just go double upgrades melee/carapace agaisnt +1 range roaches. But there's absolutely nothing he can do against +1 carapace roaches, except building roaches himself.
thats wrong. +1attack on lings will negate the +1 carap on the roaches. its just the same as +1 carap on lings vs +1 attack on roaches. so the question is, if lings have no upgrade, is +1 attack or +1 carap on roaches better? +1 attack -> 2 hits instead of 3 hits +1 carap -> 2dmg instead of 3? (dont know the numbers exactly) That would look quite equal. i would say +1 attack is a little bit better because of range -> roaches attack first.
It's the other way around. +1 carapace negates +1 attack on zerglings, thus making them completely useless, except for sneak attacks.
If lings have no upgrade, you don't even need any upgrade on your roaches, they own zerlings by default.
If you go +1a roaches and he goes +1/+1 zerglings, he's still stronger than you.
If you go +1c roaches and he goes +1/+1 zerglings, you're way ahead.
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i m a low platinum zerg and yesterday i countered the map control gained by speedlings with nydus near his base splitting my roaches, half to my choke and half to his base. I used two gases to fast lair while pumping roaches to my choke. Then burrow (optional) and nydus. It worked for me because the speedlings were near my base and tried to counter when he saw my roaches to his min line. I can upload the rep if someone is interested. Also the nudys helps to save the drones if they force their way into your main.
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OP you haven't commented on banelings at all. I'd like to hear how you think your speedling build fares against a roach build with a few added banelings.
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On March 30 2010 19:34 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +ZvZ is completely messed up in terms of lore to begin with (as the zerg shares one mind). not since the overmind fell Then Kerrigan took control instead (of about half), torwards the end of BW she had pretty much complete control. The parts she didn't control would not have the same mutations, so they would not have the new units added in SC2.
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doesn't really matter
but lore wise there can still be rogue strains of zerg out there so it's good enough.
anyway back on topic.
banelings probably are a good counter. but i feel people will work out this build properly (by that i mean getting spire up as soon as speed/+1/lair is done) and then upgraded roaches and banelings wont help you at all. then you'll still be behind because you've spent all your gas on roaches and banelings.
i guess we shall see.
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On March 30 2010 20:33 lepape wrote:
It's the other way around. +1 carapace negates +1 attack on zerglings, thus making them completely useless, except for sneak attacks.
If lings have no upgrade, you don't even need any upgrade on your roaches, they own zerlings by default.
If you go +1a roaches and he goes +1/+1 zerglings, he's still stronger than you.
If you go +1c roaches and he goes +1/+1 zerglings, you're way ahead.
no its both ways. +1 carap negates +1 attack on lings, thats right. but its the same way with +1attack on roaches and +1carap on lings. in both cases the upgrades negates each other.
i admit you are completely right with the effect of double upgrading. the carap upgrades always have effect and the attack upgrade can be completely negated. but it still has some uses, if you upgrade +2 weapon he will need +3 armor to negate it.
and a good ling zerg would upgrade the carapace up only if he sees your +attack up i guess. otherwise he will just upgrade +2 attack, since +1armor on lings is useless if roaches have no attack up.
and you think roaches are > lings by default? well the op is obviously a very different opinion.
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The OP talks about +1a speedlings, and this whole subjects is about +1a speedlings actually. Because in fact, you need a ratio of about 5:1 unupgraded speedlings to kill roaches in large numbers, they're simply not cost effective without +1.
+1a roaches are a nice counter, but not as effective as +1 carapace, because it dominates even double upgrades zerglings. That's all.
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+1 attack on roaches is better than +1 carapace.
Reason: You will always try to keep your roaches in tight areas and clumped so that all roaches can attack at the same time and lings can't hit all of them at once. Carapace would only give an advantage to the roaches that are under attack. Attack gives an advantage to all roaches. Incoming zerglings partly die before they can even hit once.
Together with proper building placement +1 attack also helps more in defending counter attacks, plus it creates a larger threat in the case that the ling player tries to initiate an elimination race.
+1 attack is cheaper as well.
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On March 30 2010 21:59 spinesheath wrote:
+1 attack on roaches is better than +1 carapace.
Reason: You will always try to keep your roaches in tight areas and clumped so that all roaches can attack at the same time and lings can't hit all of them at once. Carapace would only give an advantage to the roaches that are under attack. Attack gives an advantage to all roaches. Incoming zerglings partly die before they can even hit once.
Together with proper building placement +1 attack also helps more in defending counter attacks, plus it creates a larger threat in the case that the ling player tries to initiate an elimination race.
+1 attack is cheaper as well.
What about +1a roaches against 1/1 lings?
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On March 30 2010 19:35 Werezerg wrote:
i won a lot of games against zerglings with fast +1 attack roaches ->2hits for a ling.
maybe my opponents sucked. do you think this is not working against good players?
i upgraded it very early with about my first 100 gas. so i should be able to attack before he has +1 on his lings.
Wouldn't this fail to the first ling attack ( with speed only, no +1a) as you will only have very few roaches to defend ? Or if your very early evo+roach warden is scouted, you could die to a even earlier attack ( before speed)
I think the timing for the upgrade as the 'roach player' is very important as you have less gas than the 'speedling' player.
I also think than +1c is better than +1a for roaches, at least against me because i tend to go +1/+1 before +2/+0. ( I tech to lair just after starting then carapace upg, then add a 2nd evo and more gas).
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EPT
