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If you go roach/hydra (which you should) you always need to have enough roaches infront of them to tank. Pretty much how tank/vult or goon/zeal worked in BW, you mostly rebuild roaches when you go into a battle. Hydras without roaches in front die quickly to roaches.
+1 shouldn't make a huge difference regarding the effectiveness of hydras as long as you have the same upgrades as your opponent. Upgrades are pretty strong in zvz though so you should always get them.
roach/hydra vs roach/hydra indeed doesn't seem to reward aggression very much. Running into a properly set up line of roaches with hydras in the back won't be so good. You could try to start picking at the roaches with your hydras and retreating once the roaches start moving but if your opponent manages to arc around your forces you'll be dead.
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sigh. hydras do alot of damage. but almost 2 roaches for the cost of a hydra. is it really worth it without taking into account upgrades (0/0 situation here since i already said roach/hydra with upgrades is a different story)
does 1 hydra kill 2 roaches? the answer is no. not by a long shot. i know that isn't really a fair comparison but roach vs roach/hydra means the guy massing roaches will have a GIANT number advantage and will simply be able to push into the other guy. (as shown in my replay)
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On April 04 2010 17:39 MavercK wrote:
sigh. hydras do alot of damage. but almost 2 roaches for the cost of a hydra. is it really worth it without taking into account upgrades (0/0 situation here since i already said roach/hydra with upgrades is a different story)
does 1 hydra kill 2 roaches? the answer is no. not by a long shot. i know that isn't really a fair comparison but roach vs roach/hydra means the guy massing roaches will have a GIANT number advantage and will simply be able to push into the other guy. (as shown in my replay)
There is one thing that you simply don't understand: range.
Hydralisks have 5 range, 6 with their upgrade. Roaches have 3.
This means that if you have more Roaches than you do open space for them to get to a place to shoot at something, then you have unusued Roaches. So, for a particular configuration of terrain, there is a certain number of Roaches beyond which you will just have some milling around in the back, unable to get into a position to shoot something.
This is true for every ranged unit. But how many you can get before you run out of room is based on the size of the unit and its range.
While a Hydralisk may cost "twice" as much as a Roach, replacing a pair of Roaches that can't shoot at anything due to lack of space with a Hydralisk that can is very much worth the cost. The Hydralisks are in no immediate danger from the enemy's Roaches, because they have to fight through 2-3 layers of Roaches to get at them. The Hydralisks are free hits.
It's the same principle as Siege Tanks, only with shorter range brackets.
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^ it probably depends on the maps choke points which is better. There is also the larva issue. Hydra give you more bang per larva.
if there was a way for zerg to tech after expo without getting run over that could add variety. I haven't tried the new spine crawlers, but maybe they are enough. I still want to try going ling > muta and targeting hydras.
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choke points are a different story. but anyone would be stupid to attack into a choke without a clear victory in sight.
and yes. hydras have more range. doesn't stop them simply walking forward point blank into the roaches and having 3-4 rows of roaches shooting your line. see'ing them instantly explode and then again marching them up point blank to the hydras and taking them out in a quarter of the time. sure you can micro your hydras back. but not with roach speed.
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there are choke points all over the map. An attacking player can take advantage of choke points just as easily as a defending player can. The larger the armies get, the more you will see choke points all over the map. I don't think the plan is to march your hydras up to the enemies roaches without protection, fire some shots off, then try to run. If you are thinking of trying that then feel free.. The hit and run tactics would involve the whole army of roaches / hydras vs. the enemies roaches vying for position near a choke point. Clearly the hydras will be behind the roaches.. To see what I am talking about, just watch one of the many pro ZvZ replays where one player goes roach / hydra.
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what i meant was with roaches. roaches get blocked in a choke point yes. if you leave them to try and concave. what you will see alot of good players doing is marching forward so their roaches are practically in melee range and then attack.
i agree roach/hydra is better. but ONLY if your getting the early upgrades and going for that sort of upgrade advantage.
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On April 04 2010 22:37 MavercK wrote:
what i meant was with roaches. roaches get blocked in a choke point yes. if you leave them to try and concave. what you will see alot of good players doing is marching forward so their roaches are practically in melee range and then attack.
i agree roach/hydra is better. but ONLY if your getting the early upgrades and going for that sort of upgrade advantage.
Hydralisk upgrades are comparatively weak. 12+1 equals about 8% more damage. 16+2 equals about 12% more damage. Hydralisk attack upgrades get canceled out by armor upgrades, roach upgrades still have some effect. I'm definitely not getting hydras because their upgrades are so good.
The hydra : roach ratio is extremely important. You always want your ratio slightly more hydra-favored than your opponent, but not too much. That way the higher DPS of the hydra/roach army will obliberate the pure roach army before the roach line can be breached.
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Is this build an American thing? Everyone on EU is going roaches (at least in Gold league). I have tried this strategy about 5 times and lost every game to just one-base roaches. I have no idea how can this work if they just build 12+ roaches and attack.
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On April 05 2010 01:45 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 22:37 MavercK wrote:
what i meant was with roaches. roaches get blocked in a choke point yes. if you leave them to try and concave. what you will see alot of good players doing is marching forward so their roaches are practically in melee range and then attack.
i agree roach/hydra is better. but ONLY if your getting the early upgrades and going for that sort of upgrade advantage. Hydralisk upgrades are comparatively weak. 12+1 equals about 8% more damage. 16+2 equals about 12% more damage. Hydralisk attack upgrades get canceled out by armor upgrades, roach upgrades still have some effect. I'm definitely not getting hydras because their upgrades are so good. The hydra : roach ratio is extremely important. You always want your ratio slightly more hydra-favored than your opponent, but not too much. That way the higher DPS of the hydra/roach army will obliberate the pure roach army before the roach line can be breached.
You are forgetting to add in the fact that hydras attack speed is 'Fast' whereas the roaches attack speed is 'Normal'
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On April 05 2010 20:22 goszar wrote:
Is this build an American thing? Everyone on EU is going roaches (at least in Gold league). I have tried this strategy about 5 times and lost every game to just one-base roaches. I have no idea how can this work if they just build 12+ roaches and attack.
One base roach beats this speedling build easily, but if you expand early, assuming your opponent goes for roaches, you can die to a lot of lings pretty fast.
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On April 05 2010 20:43 Blackjackbob wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 01:45 spinesheath wrote:On April 04 2010 22:37 MavercK wrote:
what i meant was with roaches. roaches get blocked in a choke point yes. if you leave them to try and concave. what you will see alot of good players doing is marching forward so their roaches are practically in melee range and then attack.
i agree roach/hydra is better. but ONLY if your getting the early upgrades and going for that sort of upgrade advantage. Hydralisk upgrades are comparatively weak. 12+1 equals about 8% more damage. 16+2 equals about 12% more damage. Hydralisk attack upgrades get canceled out by armor upgrades, roach upgrades still have some effect. I'm definitely not getting hydras because their upgrades are so good. The hydra : roach ratio is extremely important. You always want your ratio slightly more hydra-favored than your opponent, but not too much. That way the higher DPS of the hydra/roach army will obliberate the pure roach army before the roach line can be breached. You are forgetting to add in the fact that hydras attack speed is 'Fast' whereas the roaches attack speed is 'Normal'
So I guess you want me to consider DPS instead of damage. Fine:
Hydras with +1 have 8% more DPS,
Roaches with +1 have 12% more DPS.
Doesn't change anything.
The only other thing that is worth considering is armor, mainly that of roaches. Assume that neither player gets armor upgrades early on (attacks seems much stronger and cheaper too).
Hydras actually deal 10+1 damage to roaches, which is 10% more.
Roaches deal 14+2 to roaches, which is 14% more.
So again, roaches profit more from upgrades. That's not the reason hydras are worth getting for.
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On April 05 2010 20:46 Slunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 20:22 goszar wrote:
Is this build an American thing? Everyone on EU is going roaches (at least in Gold league). I have tried this strategy about 5 times and lost every game to just one-base roaches. I have no idea how can this work if they just build 12+ roaches and attack. One base roach beats this speedling build easily, but if you expand early, assuming your opponent goes for roaches, you can die to a lot of lings pretty fast.
Thank you. I don't see any problem then.
1 Base Roach > FE Speedling > FE Roach > 1 Base Roach. It's how it should be.
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On April 06 2010 00:14 goszar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 20:46 Slunk wrote:On April 05 2010 20:22 goszar wrote:
Is this build an American thing? Everyone on EU is going roaches (at least in Gold league). I have tried this strategy about 5 times and lost every game to just one-base roaches. I have no idea how can this work if they just build 12+ roaches and attack. One base roach beats this speedling build easily, but if you expand early, assuming your opponent goes for roaches, you can die to a lot of lings pretty fast. Thank you. I don't see any problem then. 1 Base Roach > FE Speedling > FE Roach > 1 Base Roach. It's how it should be.
I've been doing a 1-base Speedling/+1 melee and just expand after my first harass that has been working really well against 1 base Roach. I just keep harassing his mineral line and prevent expansions with the Speedlings and tech to Muta as I get my second base running and overpower him. It works best on a large map where you have plenty of warning if the Roaches come out and plenty of room to manuever.
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On April 06 2010 00:23 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 00:14 goszar wrote:On April 05 2010 20:46 Slunk wrote:On April 05 2010 20:22 goszar wrote:
Is this build an American thing? Everyone on EU is going roaches (at least in Gold league). I have tried this strategy about 5 times and lost every game to just one-base roaches. I have no idea how can this work if they just build 12+ roaches and attack. One base roach beats this speedling build easily, but if you expand early, assuming your opponent goes for roaches, you can die to a lot of lings pretty fast. Thank you. I don't see any problem then. 1 Base Roach > FE Speedling > FE Roach > 1 Base Roach. It's how it should be. I've been doing a 1-base Speedling/+1 melee and just expand after my first harass that has been working really well against 1 base Roach. I just keep harassing his mineral line and prevent expansions with the Speedlings and tech to Muta as I get my second base running and overpower him. It works best on a large map where you have plenty of warning if the Roaches come out and plenty of room to manuever.
Have you faced +1 attack roaches? I don't see how lings will do anything at that point. Also 1 base roach will have a fast lair out for roach speed so I always get ovi speed too and I'll see that spire coming up way before it's finished, so I have so much time to prepare an attack and get hydra. I just don't see how it works.
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On March 30 2010 08:09 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2010 08:07 _rdm_ wrote:dont tell the americans how to play zvz  This strategy isnt out on american servers yet. I'm an american zerg and I'm getting tired of winning by default just because they try to go roaches and with over 60% of my games being ZvZ on average it gets old after a while. edit: Seriously to the doubters TRY IT like I said in the OP I gave you a BO use it and tell me it doesnt work then.
14 hatch seems really really really slow against 10pool/overpool, which i always see my Z opponents doing against me. I used to go 13pool in every matchup, get a fast queen and 6 lings as soon as my pool pops, and i've already got lings in my base. against terrible A-move zergs i can keep my drones alive until my queen and lings are out and then i can just out econ while countering, but if the zerg micros and does some damage, it's over. 14 hatch is even later than this, so how do you deal with it?
Lately i've been going overpool/immediate queen, get four to six lings, then tech straight to roaches and get the speed upgrade when i have my second gas, followed by +1 carapace.
What i've noticed is that when i get to this point, i can keep pumping roaches and if he does FE, he loses the expo outright, and when +1 carapace pops i roll him, and if he does 1base speedlings, i just contain with a great concave outside of his choke and then i'm free to take my natural.
It seems to me that speedlings are just the weaker way to go. Later on perhaps, like late midgame, i could see going roach/hydra/baneling, or instead of BL maybe get lings for extra mobility to get the surrounds.
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On April 06 2010 00:56 Floophead_III wrote:
Have you faced +1 attack roaches? I don't see how lings will do anything at that point. Also 1 base roach will have a fast lair out for roach speed so I always get ovi speed too and I'll see that spire coming up way before it's finished, so I have so much time to prepare an attack and get hydra. I just don't see how it works.
Yeah, +1 attack Roaches seem pretty common. I usually either have Muta's out by the time they get the +1 attack and move on me, or just play the old hit-and-run game to threaten a backstab, and just generally buy time until the Muta's pop or I have a significant econ advantage. I have lost to a few really solid timing pushes, but I've usually done something wrong in that case as well, like failing to pressure him early, or getting greedy and droning too much, or having too late of a Spire.
It's probably not the best thing to do, but I find it a lot more fun then 1 base Roach mirrors.
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On April 06 2010 01:48 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 00:56 Floophead_III wrote:
Have you faced +1 attack roaches? I don't see how lings will do anything at that point. Also 1 base roach will have a fast lair out for roach speed so I always get ovi speed too and I'll see that spire coming up way before it's finished, so I have so much time to prepare an attack and get hydra. I just don't see how it works. Yeah, +1 attack Roaches seem pretty common. I usually either have Muta's out by the time they get the +1 attack and move on me, or just play the old hit-and-run game to threaten a backstab, and just generally buy time until the Muta's pop or I have a significant econ advantage. I have lost to a few really solid timing pushes, but I've usually done something wrong in that case as well, like failing to pressure him early, or getting greedy and droning too much, or having too late of a Spire. It's probably not the best thing to do, but I find it a lot more fun then 1 base Roach mirrors.
If I smell speedlings (or whenever I go 1 base roach), my first 100 gas go to +1 ranged attack. There is now way you get your mutas out so fast.
But in general - since the game has been out for only so long - anything can work, because there are no well-established BOs or strategies. I've actually lost to mutalisks twice today, mostly because I early expanded and saw him getting roaches off one base. So, I kept massing roaches, feeling way ahead because of my earlier expansion. And then I had 8 mutas in my base.
This kinda sucks, now I feel obligated to rush for lair even in ZvZ to get some scouting done.
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EPT
