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@cartoon
No offense dude, but if you haven't played the game, don't use five patch old replays to try and theory craft.... I don't think you realize that since the nerfs to protoss, the marine + SCV rush comes too early if it is done properly, you can't get 3 stalkers out, get to his base and harass him before his push moves out... In the replays you've seen of David Kim the T barracks built SLOWER than a toss gateway, the build times have been pretty much reversed now.
Maybe I am just bitter because of having to deal with Colossus/Immorals/DTs/storms for so long as a terran player (with horrible mech to choose from) but it is kind of nice to actually see a strat that gives T an advantage in this match-up... T vs P was pretty retarded from the T perspective. Against good toss it went something like this:
"Observer sees T army, Toss player pre-casts feedback on Ghosts and then A-moves his army in. T player loses. YAY!!!"
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How exactly do you scout this?
Oh! He's walling... and... making SCVs... He must be cheese rushing!
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On March 15 2010 06:47 CieZ wrote:
@cartoon
No offense dude, but if you haven't played the game, don't use five patch old replays to try and theory craft.... I don't think you realize that since the nerfs to protoss, the marine + SCV rush comes too early if it is done properly, you can't get 3 stalkers out, get to his base and harass him before his push moves out... In the replays you've seen of David Kim the T barracks built SLOWER than a toss gateway, the build times have been pretty much reversed now.
Maybe I am just bitter because of having to deal with Colossus/Immorals/DTs/storms for so long as a terran player (with horrible mech to choose from) but it is kind of nice to actually see a strat that gives T an advantage in this match-up... T vs P was pretty retarded from the T perspective. Against good toss it went something like this:
"Observer sees T army, Toss player pre-casts feedback on Ghosts and then A-moves his army in. T player loses. YAY!!!"
Well, part of why I go on theory crafting is so that I can learn where I am right and where I am wrong from players who do have the game, since I cannot play the game. Although I do have a cracked version of the game which I play offline to practice build orders. So I am more than glad to have someone correct me. At the same time, when a player who has the game puts forward an explanation which isn't comprehensive, and concludes "the game is broken, imba!", I like to test how much they really know, vs. how much they're just whining. And there is so much whining imba on this forum, and so little constructive problem solving, it is difficult to tell who knows their stuff vs. who is a crybaby. Anyway, my 3 stalker harass is not talking about the scv / marine rush, it's talking about a marauder marine rush. For the scv / marine rush, I am not certain what to do.. , although there are some things I would try, but they don't involve a 3 stalker harass. I am fairly certain you can have 3 stalkers harassing him by the time he has 2 marauders and is ready to move out.
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It's amazing how much nonsense has been said in this thread. I'm going to do some legit testing vs this since I'm back at school and have my desktop computer to work with. I stand by that it's a terrible allin and easily spotted and defended against without forge.
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Anyone who tests this should post replays
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Yeah, there are always going to be a lot of people crying imba in pretty much any community for any game. I just don't think you can cry imba unless something is very obviously broken for a very long period of time, or just so ridiculously broken that the entire game is ruined. It took T players a while to think up the idea to rush with SCVs + Marines, the build was specifically designed to counter what is considered protoss "standard" play, so I think it is silly when protoss cry about not being able to use their "standard" play to beat a strat that was 100% designed to beat it... Its like paper saying nerf scissors, rock is fine.
Even if toss goes forge first, which seems to be the accepted counter to the T SCV/rine rush, I don't see why it is such a hopeless game for the toss. Toss mid/late game is so hilariously overpowered vs T it is stupid. They can roll you with Colossus/Immortals/Lots/Stalker, in which case you need vikings + perfect micro on spreading your bio out + EMPs, or they can go for HTs and unless you hit pretty much every HT with EMP, you're screwed. The way it stands right now, mech is such an iffy choice for T to go because it is just... well... weak.
Like I said earlier, I might just be bitter about losing to protoss who just A-Move their armies when I'm having to do fifteen thousand things to counter one A-moved colossus with a random mix of other units in front of it. (LOL 9 RANGE COLOSSUS NOT OP?)
Sorry about getting confused on which strat you were talking about using against which build. From trying an early marine/maru push against some protoss I've lost to 4 warp-gate mass stalkers (after patch) simply because the toss could replenish his units quicker than I could mine, and hitting + running with stalkers is effective against marines once you've picked off the Maraus, maybe even send in like 2-3 probes to mess with the marine AI.
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Yeah I was just starting to think more about that. What's so bad about a fast expand when he's not even gotten his gas yet? Upon sighting no gas you can throw down a forge, build 2 cannons, allow him to expand, and tech to zealots / DTs / warp prism? Or like you say, fast tech to standard and then push out and expand.
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http://www.mediafire.com/?zdk3wjutiny
http://www.mediafire.com/?y2mmtktr0kl
2 different replays. i think if you dont scout them on first spot it could be very, very hard to defend, maybe impossible if both are of equal skill level.
in one replay he did a 2 rax build and attacked with 8 marines + scvs. the other one was some different all in. that guy made a rax in his mainbase and proxyed 2 more near my natural. dunno if this helps, but since this thread it seems like a trend to scv rush and it seems to work. at least in my division because all t made much points^^
platinum 1750 points here, so im not that good adn maybe it wont help.
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On March 15 2010 07:09 CieZ wrote:
Yeah, there are always going to be a lot of people crying imba in pretty much any community for any game. I just don't think you can cry imba unless something is very obviously broken for a very long period of time, or just so ridiculously broken that the entire game is ruined.
[..]
Protoss who just A-Move their armies when I'm having to do fifteen thousand things to counter one A-moved colossus with a random mix of other units in front of it. (LOL 9 RANGE COLOSSUS NOT OP?) I wonder who is really crying.
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Yeah, if the build isn't scouted it SHOULD beat a "standard" protoss opening because that is SPECIFICALLY what it was designed to do, which is why I don't think people can cry imba. Now if that build lets the T get +3 bases up on the toss, then yeah it is obviously a hopeless game and if the build is THAT strong something should be changed.
I have not tried this myself yet, and have not watched replays of what happens when the toss goes forge + cannons to stop the rush, but is the toss really THAT far behind that it is hopeless? As was mentioned before, the T player still has yet to even start collecting gas, and if the toss keeps scouting up, or realizes that the strategic thing for the T to do is to back off and expo, then the toss can throw up a counter-expo, thus transitioning into a 2-base vs 2-base game like a lot of TvPs go into. I mean toss already has 2 extremely powerful answers to T bio, and immortals which just romp all over mech, is it REALLY necessary that they have map control the whole game and get to expo first? Finally T comes up with a strat that gives them more of a fighting chance in the match-up and toss cries imba cuz they're too used to one build-order that counters everything T can possibly do with an A-moved army? (Colossus + Immoral from robo is fun for T to deal with...)
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Yeah, I have to agree.
Edit: I watched the two replays of this.
On the game on scrapyards the protoss player stops the rush easily despite having made a few mistakes. For one thing, he didn't even fully use his chrono boost to fast build zealots after having scouted the rush. For another thing, he did not have perfect zealot micro. Despite this he still won the game with a standard opening build, without even having to pull probes.
In the second game the protoss player went fast robotics facility on a very large map, and his opponent built two proxy barracks. His opponent was busy pumping marines while he had 1 stalker and 1 zealot, and pretty much skipped over building early units. He once again was hoarding nexus power, not using his chrono boost, and when he did start boosting it was used on the cybernetics core for warp gates, and not on zealots. The proxy barracks could of easily been scouted using the towers in the middle of the map. Infact, there is no good place to build a proxy barracks on this map which cannot be scouted by towers. If you sensed this might be coming, you could simply move to the tower outside your base with a scouting probe, and you'd see the barracks as it was being built. The rush was relatively successful, the protoss player lost a ton of probes, but still managed to survive. I didn't watch the game drag on, but it dragged on for a while. That the protoss even lasted this long despite the build order he used is really impressive to me.
Conclusion: this rush is very stoppable. To be honest, it's far weaker than I had expected considering how much people are crying. A protoss who scouts this and continues to pump zealots from two gateways while chrono boosting them, and then micros properly during the battle should have no problem winning. This is probably more dangerous on a close spawn map, like next door on LT or something. As T that is the only time I would even consider using it. With good micro and fully chrono boosted gateways from the P, I'm not sure who would have the edge. On such small maps, waiting to go gas and instead going 3 gateway may work better. I would need to see a replay on a map like this to know how it plays out
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I found one of the best defenses against this rush (from the protoss perspective) is a counter by in base proxying on the terran.
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Well how long did the T wait to attack in each replay? If he didn't go in until the toss had a robo up and warp gate researching it seems like the T waited way too long. From what I understood the best the toss could do based on the timing of each attack was 6 zealots vs 12 SCVs + 6 marines, in which case if the T player micros, he will win. If that is the case though it just sounds like if the toss pulled his probes he would win easily... There would just be too much stuff to block with SCVs, and the marines couldn't kill everything quickly enough.
I do agree that there seems to be way too much whining about the strat though, I guess some toss just got too comfortable being able to tech to collos with like 1 zealot against T and faceroll their way through games. As long as it is scouted it is a REALLY freaking obvious strat. No gas? HMMMM wonder what he could be doing? 1 base BC tech obviously.
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it was about 6 zealots vs 12 scvs and 6 marines. basically the player attack / moved / attacked / moved his zealots, taking down the life of the SCVs while forcing the marines to retreat. The SCVs died and I think over half of the marines died. All the zealots died. At this point the game was relatively even and the player switched to stalkers. The terran I guess didn't have perfect micro, but neither did the protoss. The other replay doesnt really count because he basically went straight to robotics facility. But when the attack was starting, the robotics facility had just started building and he only had like 2 maybe 3 units. Keep in mind the protoss player in the first game didnt even pull probes. If you had to you could run the probes behind the marines and prevent them from retreating, then slaughter them with zealots. If you quickly clone your zealots to attack different marines, then use your probes, I can't see any good way the T will win.. not only that, you can use that mechanic of reducing threat on your probes. What is that, like spam stop or move or something? Use that while you block the marine pathing as they try to retreat and you probably will barely lose any probes on top of it all.
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Ever since this post i've been incorporating this into my TvP. I do my standard Marines with 2 ghosts EMP timing push, but bring about 3/4 of my mineral SCVs with me (I don't touch the gas ones). While my army is heading towards their base I pump SCV, and only get as many ghosts/marines as I can without interrupting SCV production. I keep 50 energy for a single scan because it can help during my first push and make sure I drop mules every time I can. My win rate with the first push is much higher than the chance of me loosing my initial army. And even if I do, by the time I look at my base I usually have 2 ghosts and a handful of marines already back and my mineral line at a fairly decent saturation. It is not all in at all. If it fails the game becomes much longer, but counter attacks are usually do little damage because I have 2-3 emp ready by the time they ge to my base. Altho my winrate was fine with my push as it was the SCVs taking hits because they are higher on the priority list than my marines gives my army much much more survivability.
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I've read the first ~10 posts, and the last ~15 posts in here, and I have to say that I really don't think it's imbalanced.
I played against it once (as toss), and was caught off-guard and lost because I had never seen it before.
I think the proper response to this is to start putting up a forge along with your 1-gate core, while delaying your second gas by a few seconds, if you can't keep a probe inside their base and only have one below their ramp.
If you see them moving out with an obscene amount of scv's and marines, then put a cannon or two down. The timing should work out well so that you will have your cannons up before they arrive. Granted, I haven't tried this personally but I do find that I have a gas shortage and mineral excess if I'm teching straight robo.
If the push doesn't come, then you've only invested 150 minerals that you were going to put in later anyway. Since there is already a huge advantage to protoss with robo tech vs terran infantry, I don't see this as a huge disadvantage. If the push comes and you fend it off, you can either tech colossus and finish him off or expand to your nat to play safer.
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Alright, I just played a lot of games vs a friend (who was playing on a mutual friend's account who is in copper, the guy I'm playing with is better than that). I don't know if there may be some variation which just straight up rapes what I do, but I manage to counter it without a forge with enough of an advantage at the end that I've clearly won.
The trick is, if you spot 2 rax no gas, get a sentry first. Chrono boost that gate and get another sentry out just after. You'll need the force fields to block your ramp and buy some time. Basically you just wanna stall for as long as possible so they lose their advantage. Once they finally break through you need to pull all your probes and just go for it. It's not pretty, but it wins without any major adjustment before the cyber core is up.
Another note is that I tested 9 pylon 12 gate and it did horribly compared to my opening of 10 pylon 11 gate. I think I might end up with like, 1 probe less or something but being safe vs cheese is worth it.
The last game we played is here: http://www.mediafire.com/?oje3ymoyznr
Basically, the reason this works is because it takes a very specific and well thought through response which nobody knows yet. I think perhaps the maps play a large part in it as well. I didn't even have to play well to stop this cross spots on LT. Steppes is just about as retarded as you can get with rush distance, so that's why my final tests were performed there.
Last note: I know people will say "what about maps like scrap station that have a huge ramp that forcefields can't block?" The fact is, the rush distance on that map is so ridiculous that you will have a lot more out when he hits you, and it's just not that hard to deal with.
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i 100% agree, that stalkers should be the meat in almost every match up, they play the role of the main fighting unit perfectly, yet to be honest 95% of times they are built its a mistake because they are truly weak beyond belief.
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how fast can protoss get a sentry? 1 force shield should counter this perfectly.
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Most of the replays in this thread haven't really captured whats being talked about.
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EPT
