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On March 16 2010 06:29 LagT_T wrote:
Is Bisu build (fast exp with cannons) a possibility against this strat?
Oh god, don't start the flamewar with calling forge FE a "Bisu build" 
Cannons are not a good option, because just like it was already mentioned - T can just expand faster when he sees you wasting money on forge and cannons.
Plus fast expo is very, veeery prone to banshee/reaper harass. Oh my god, cannons vs reapers is not something you want to do at all
Plus - forge FE was supposed to be PvZ strat in SC1, not PvT
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I proved it's beatable with 1 gate core if scouted. It's strong, but it's not OP. Perhaps a little decrease on core build time would help, since now your core tech is much later due to later gateways. That being said, it's a cheese and it can be beaten.
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On March 16 2010 06:42 b0lt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:37 trickser wrote:On March 16 2010 05:33 Zoler wrote:On March 16 2010 05:12 Gedrah wrote:On March 16 2010 05:10 Mauzel wrote:
Maybe you could stop terran from scouting by placing probes at ramp and just accept the mineral loss?
This way they won't know if you went forge first or not, so the expo is no longer safe, and the all-in might die to forge-first.
That said, they could probably just play standard and screw you over due to your economic disadvantage of pulling probes to stop scout.
They might also counter your build order choice by chance.
Maybe this will bel ike All he has to do is right click on the minerals and the SCV will go right past the Probes. Workers actually slide through other workers if you tell them to mine, I'm surprised not more know about this. Not if you dont have vision of the minerals. Nope, it does it even if you mine minerals in fog in SC2.
Really? Are you sure about this?
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I wanted to try the cheese myself.
Phok - silver - division 11
Rank 13th
http://www.mediafire.com/?2i2ymkvky5m
I think the replay sort of justifies the situation here... Desert oasis is a pretty big map and I was still able to pull it off. The rush was even scouted, and my build order was lack luster. I was on my laptop(I HATE playing on my laptop) at the time, so I knew the only way i'd be able to win was to cheese or do something unexpected because my apm play is so slow on a laptop. What's nice about a cheese like this on desert oasis is the resources on the island corners of the map. If you decide to do a cheese like this and fail, the fall-back strategy would be to just lift and re-tech on an island. I really think this cheese is VERY map dependent. But I did think of a really good counter to this cheese. You could wall off the terran's choke point somehow and stop the terran scvs from streaming to your base. Feedback would be great :D
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On March 16 2010 07:07 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:29 LagT_T wrote:
Is Bisu build (fast exp with cannons) a possibility against this strat? Oh god, don't start the flamewar with calling forge FE a "Bisu build" Cannons are not a good option, because just like it was already mentioned - T can just expand faster when he sees you wasting money on forge and cannons. Plus fast expo is very, veeery prone to banshee/reaper harass. Oh my god, cannons vs reapers is not something you want to do at all Plus - forge FE was supposed to be PvZ strat in SC1, not PvT
Sorry about the Bisu build thing, I didn't know about the ignitability of the subject.
Regarding the plus, I don't care about the matchup, only if it works or not. How soon does the terran scout? Because to pull this off he has to skip gas, so reapers/banshees will be delayed.
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On March 16 2010 07:28 TheYellowDart wrote:I wanted to try the cheese myself. Phok - silver - division 11 Rank 13th http://www.mediafire.com/?2i2ymkvky5mI think the replay sort of justifies the situation here... Desert oasis is a pretty big map and I was still able to pull it off. The rush was even scouted, and my build order was lack luster. I was on my laptop(I HATE playing on my laptop) at the time, so I knew the only way i'd be able to win was to cheese or do something unexpected because my apm play is so slow on a laptop. What's nice about a cheese like this on desert oasis is the resources on the island corners of the map. If you decide to do a cheese like this and fail, the fall-back strategy would be to just lift and re-tech on an island. I really think this cheese is VERY map dependent. But I did think of a really good counter to this cheese. You could wall off the terran's choke point somehow and stop the terran scvs from streaming to your base. Feedback would be great :D
It should never work on oasis the rush distance is huge and you can block the ramp with a forcefield. You're silver league, which no offense, is full of terrible terrible people. It doesn't show anything.
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Yeah, I think we've come to the conclusion that all the toss has to do to defend against this strat (unless all of our timings are completely off) is scout it, make two gateways, and pull probes.
The probes can move in behind the marines, blocking any sort of "kiting" they could do, the zealots tear through the SCVs, toss wins the fight and is way ahead. Definitely not an imba strat I don't think.
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lmao i didnt understand it when "Giveyouhell"s opening was FORGE first and 3 cannons on steeps of war vs terran. i was thinking wtf noob how could this guy finish in top 8 of the korean XP 256 pple tournament!!!? Not to mention he had a sentry by then and 4 zealots as well. Then the terran rushed and managed to KILL all 3 cannons with his marines maruders and scvs from 3 rax.
i extracted it from the rep pack gtr posted so dl here if u just want to see that game
http://www.starcraft2replaysdb.com/others/giveyouhell hyberdubpvt.SC2Replay
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it's funny that people posted on this thread, when some people were posting saying probe defense, people just ignored them
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Floophead_III
I agree that this strategy is beatable, especially on larger maps. But you should be very prepared for it.
I think that it is still very unhealthy for the medium skill level (think Gold League). Actually I believe that on this level two-gate zealots with chronoboost can't defend it - see one of the korean replays when SCV+marines beat around 10 zealots total and pulled probes: http://www.mediafire.com/file/i4tqhcnw5dn/korean.zip (the pack is even for old patch with fast warpgate).
If you are interested on how Gold players are beaten, see my replay pack: http://www.mediafire.com/file/25gkjyf2dmm/Recent.zip (I performed this incorrectly first few games and lost twice to Zergs on large maps).
My suggestion is to nerf SCV HP to 50.
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It's not just scv health that's doing this. Besides it's part of the game having a strong worker unit.
Is there a replay of anyone managing to defend this with 2gate vs a good marine scv rush?
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On March 16 2010 07:08 Floophead_III wrote:
I proved it's beatable with 1 gate core if scouted. It's strong, but it's not OP. Perhaps a little decrease on core build time would help, since now your core tech is much later due to later gateways. That being said, it's a cheese and it can be beaten.
The terran in replay left 4 marines at expo. I'm not convinced in the least bit.
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On March 16 2010 11:37 CagedMind wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 07:08 Floophead_III wrote:
I proved it's beatable with 1 gate core if scouted. It's strong, but it's not OP. Perhaps a little decrease on core build time would help, since now your core tech is much later due to later gateways. That being said, it's a cheese and it can be beaten. The terran in replay left 4 marines at expo. I'm not convinced in the least bit.
Oh did he? I hadn't watched the replay itself, I just assumed he didn't make any mistakes that go around. He's a pretty average player so that doesn't surprise me. I'll be glad to play some more with a better opponent so we have more definitive proof.
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United States4991 Posts
I tried for like an hour today against Mystlord. It seems stoppable to me. I lost a few times until I figured out to save energy for chronoboosts and how to micro zealot/probe well against scv/marine, but after that I was consistently stopping his attacks when he built in his main (even wtih 1 gate before core). I lost a few more times when he started proxying near my base until I went pylon gate assimilator and if I saw he was proxying add a 2nd gate prior to getting the core. Zealot/Probe micro doesn't seem impossible versus it, although I sure felt like I had to be super careful with my units or SCVs surround and rape individual Zealots 
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SCV+marine rush worked in Starcraft 1 too. I did it all the time on 2 player maps. Its even more devastating vs zerg. If you do it right with 2 barracks, you can continuously build marines + scv at your main still while attacking.
I typically attack with my first 6 marines and 6-8 SCV. New marines rallied to the marines, new scv rallied to mineral. The funniest part of this build is that I don't even noticed being set back on units since SCV are continuously built.
PS: Bunkers are fun by their gates/pylons.
I'd say with zealots with lowered shield that it would be brutal.
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Yeah the push isn't unbeatable I feel. I've had it stopped several times just by good building placement at ramps and decent micro from opponents.
Definitely not my cup of tea build though.
I've also noticed that protoss can counter it well with some in base proxys to screw with the terran haha.
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rofl
I challenge anyone in this thread to some TvP and I will use this cheese succesfully (might take a warmup game or two), but this build is effective against pretty much any standard or non forge build if executed correctly.
I'll get on right now, warturtle.warturtle, please post in this thread, we will post replays and quote your things about how easy it is to stop.
FAce it the koreans are BETTER than usa atm and probably for the next few years, if they say its true some D iccup users on teamliquid cant really talk.
what you guys are facing is the build done sub optimally, the exact precise build for it to be 100% takes a little getting used to
You cant just throw a random number of marines, you need a certain number of marines to maximize the ranged damage bonus (all of them can attack at once), while microing SCVs in a way to also stall damage + micro damaged ones back using the opponents natural mineral patches.
seriously there are #1 ranked players on USA server who still click all the production buildings to make stuff.
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seriously there are #1 ranked players on USA server who still click all the production buildings to make stuff.
rofl
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@Dac - We're not trying to claim that we are the be-all, end-all SC2 pros. We're trying to logically debate whether or not the rush is OP. I don't think any of us want to see the game be released and have EVERY TvP match become LOLSCVRUSH!!! The point of the beta is to figure out what is OP and what isn't.
After we have been talking/testing/figuring out specific timings and such it seems to be the consensus that this strat isn't WHOAMG INSTA WIN ALWAYS. Yes the Korean's are better players, their culture promotes gaming while the US culture frowns upon it. They can make hundreds of thousands of US dollars professionally gaming. However, that does not mean that they ALWAYS think of the absolute best strats ever. Take the game SSBM (Super Smash Bros Melee) for example. The technique "Wavedashing" which went on to become almost absolutely essential to playing a lot of characters at a top level was discovered by some random home-run contest player (IIRC). So it is entirely possible that us "worse" US players think of a "better" counter to the rush. Koreans rely on an extremely high level of mechanical skill, while typically foreigners (such as ourselves) rely more on "cheese" strats because we can't beat people that much better mechanically in a "standard" game.
Also there is no "optimal number of marines to maximize the ranged damage" more marines = more damage. I think what you were going for was that there is a specific TIMING at which you need to hit the opponent.
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United States4991 Posts
On March 16 2010 15:02 dacthehork wrote:
rofl
I challenge anyone in this thread to some TvP and I will use this cheese succesfully (might take a warmup game or two), but this build is effective against pretty much any standard or non forge build if executed correctly.
I'll get on right now, warturtle.warturtle, please post in this thread, we will post replays and quote your things about how easy it is to stop.
FAce it the koreans are BETTER than usa atm and probably for the next few years, if they say its true some D iccup users on teamliquid cant really talk.
what you guys are facing is the build done sub optimally, the exact precise build for it to be 100% takes a little getting used to
You cant just throw a random number of marines, you need a certain number of marines to maximize the ranged damage bonus (all of them can attack at once), while microing SCVs in a way to also stall damage + micro damaged ones back using the opponents natural mineral patches.
seriously there are #1 ranked players on USA server who still click all the production buildings to make stuff.
Your general attitude does not really encourage people to take you up on your "kind" offer...
I never said it was "easy" to stop either, I merely said I think it's stoppable. I messaged you on SC2.
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EPT
