EPTIf you think this isnt IMBA come play me, warturtle.warturtle. I'm currently playing a bunch of TvP practice matches, and will post replays. If you want friendly debate then don't come in this thread saying how easy it is to stop because you beat some guy who didnt execute it properly.
[D] TvP Cheese rush overpowered? - Page 13
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
If you think this isnt IMBA come play me, warturtle.warturtle. I'm currently playing a bunch of TvP practice matches, and will post replays. If you want friendly debate then don't come in this thread saying how easy it is to stop because you beat some guy who didnt execute it properly. | ||
Insane
United States4991 Posts
On March 16 2010 15:24 dacthehork wrote: its not a kind offer If you think this isnt IMBA come play me, warturtle.warturtle. I'm currently playing a bunch of TvP practice matches, and will post replays. If you want friendly debate then don't come in this thread saying how easy it is to stop because you beat some guy who didnt execute it properly. Calm down. I never came into the thread saying how easy it is to stop? Read my post again. I said I think it's stoppable. This isn't some site where we just fly off the handle and start acting aggressive over random things, so keep cool and we can have a civil discussion... | ||
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Insane
United States4991 Posts
I think it's eminently stoppable, even though I did lose the two games on blistering sands [that was partially my fault for trying something silly though]. As promised by him, here are the replays: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Insane/sc2/vswarturtle.zip | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Insane, what's your ID? I need a good protoss to practice vs. | ||
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Insane
United States4991 Posts
On March 16 2010 16:24 Floophead_III wrote: I'm glad to see that another good player took the time to shut down these loudmouths and prove that it's beatable. =D Insane, what's your ID? I need a good protoss to practice vs. Lorelei.teamliquid [I'm done playing for tonight though... I'm only on in USA evenings because of work] | ||
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CieZ
United States50 Posts
I definitely think the rush is beatable, don't get me wrong, but I would like to test it against a solid protoss player who plays as if it is coming. Feel free to send me a message @ CieZ.zeic sometime... I also need a lot of practice vs. Protoss playing a more standard build. | ||
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Insane
United States4991 Posts
On March 16 2010 16:31 CieZ wrote: Watched 3 of the replays between Insane and War. What war did was actually a bit different than what I've seen done, and what I've done myself. Upgrading to OC is just a waste of time... I have hit the toss base with more units, at the same time... I definitely think the rush is beatable, don't get me wrong, but I would like to test it against a solid protoss player who plays as if it is coming. Feel free to send me a message @ CieZ.zeic sometime... I also need a lot of practice vs. Protoss playing a more standard build. I'll take you up on it tomorrow evening then! I'm not saying what I did is the perfect counter or something (and in fact prior to this evening I had never played versus the build) and I'm still figuring it out myself! | ||
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Trap
United States395 Posts
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Insane
United States4991 Posts
On March 16 2010 16:34 Trap wrote: Sorry but it's obvious warturtle's micro is really bad comparatively. Not to mention he never tried to bunker. He never even tried to hide that he was going for this build which makes it way more deadly if you wall. if you don't wall tvp you're saying, oh hey, I'm going to have so many marines, it won't matter if you pressure with zealots. big clue right there. No offense intended to him, but he's a lower ranked player anyway, which I was worried someone would point out as invalidating it  . I'm willing to try it versus anyone who's up for it though!I don't really think bunker is a part of the strategy from what I've heard? If you are close enough into the Protoss base for the bunker to do more than merely contain them in their base, and you've been there long enough to build a bunker, they're probably fucked anyway. Merely containing with a bunker doesn't seem to be the goal, since you just suicided your economy and will certainly lose a long game if you just sit in his nat or whatever. And yes it was obvious he was going for the build, but I didn't do any weird builds that specifically took advantage of it. I kept a probe to watch for his attack coming out, but I always scouted his base first and ascertained what he was doing. I usually scout after pylon anyway, so it's not like I did much differently from normal. I 13 gated and then gased afterwards in every game, I didn't do 10/10 gate and go "hahaghahguagha" | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27148 Posts
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Trap
United States395 Posts
The bunker isn't as for a contain, it's that inside your base they can bunker near your gates/core so your reinforcement zealots are useless. Just another point about how T's execution in those games was poor. | ||
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Insane
United States4991 Posts
On March 16 2010 16:45 Trap wrote: If he did the rush off a wallin would you have really built 2 zealots before a stalker? If he was smart and after you scouted it and killed his probe then proceeded to expand off MM/PF you would have been very far behind from building 2-3 sentries so quickly. The one time he decided to expand he should have been able to hold you off but he didn't get inside his bunkers (all 4 of them) in time. The bunker isn't as for a contain, it's that inside your base they can bunker near your gates/core so your reinforcement zealots are useless. Just another point about how T's execution in those games was poor. In the final game (where he expanded) I totally overreacted to his 1 rax opening, because I thought he was just trying it but with a proxy ;D Usually seeing that sort of opening I don't overreact that way, I was just so in the mindset of "he's doing marine/scv all-in". On a lot of maps it's not possible to get the wallin up in time to prevent me from getting in. There are ways to make it more difficult to stop, but I don't think it's impossible. And I never did make Stalkers (except in the game where it went longer), so I assume you mean Sentry :O [I prefer Zealot/Sentry as an opening to getting Stalkers on the whole] My point is that he can't just magic a bunker out of nowhere. They take quite a while to build, and if he's sufficiently safely established that close to my base such that he can make the bunker, I'm probably in bad shape anyway. | ||
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Trap
United States395 Posts
Unfortunately I am on EU; otherwise I would be up for some games though :p | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
Wow you're wrong, first of all I won the 2 games on blistering sands, if we go by these small sample size logic, 100% win rate on TvP blistering sands, the last FE I made a simple bunker mistake and wasnt trying the cheese at all and would have easily won that game otherwise. Also I tried it on desert oasis which is obviously a terrible map for it. I was more experimenting than anything. Also OB is not a bad investment, as it allows you to pull all SCVs. If you discount the LT games where I was adapting to the sentry blocking (sending marines earlier fixed that, see blistering sands), against 2 gate you actually send marines later, I would have easily won steppes had I not mismicroed. So really those games are more signs that the build is really powerful. Also the last game if you watch the replay half my army bugged out trying to get past the bunker. You are only 200 elo higher and have like 3x my games played, I don't know where you get off on this lower skill BS. It's pretty obvious this build is extremely powerful, and I'm sure if we played 10 more games I would go over 70%. If you look at the last 3 serious attempts at it, I went 66%, with a mismicro not really a failing of the build causing the last fail. saying 5-2 is a misnomer, as I used a completely different timing/build in the first 2 games, and desert oasis was not good for the build, and the final game I didnt even do the rush. Using the modified BO I was 2-1 on decent size maps. | ||
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Insane
United States4991 Posts
It was some other guy (Trap) who said your micro sucked. In fact, I'm about the only person who's not saying stuff like that..... First Blistering Sands game I tried going 2nd gas before 2nd Gateway, which was a mistake in retrospect (and something I gave up in future games). Second Blistering Sands game I played poorly in general, including trapping my own Zealot with my own buildings. I don't have a good excuse for why I did that, just poor play I suppose. Also I'm pretty sure the reason you did the FE on the final game was because you lacked confidence in your ability to win with the rush, because I'm quite sure if you thought you would win with it you would've done it judging by your posts ^^ If we're allowed to just randomly discount games, then I went 5-0. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
That being said, I also ascertained that there may be slightly more powerful variants of this rush, and you can probably maximize it perfectly, but protoss should always be ok if he scouts and reacts accordingly. As far as koreans opening forge first, it's a sloppy fix, and it just goes to show that foreigners are no worse off than koreans when it comes to sc2. | ||
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
Conclusion? Inconclusive You can't determine that from our 6 games of me using this rush. I would have kept playing 20-30 of them, I only FE the last game to test if his opening would be weak to it. I would expect at least 30-40 games on the same map to even slightly determine it, and watching replays to see if both players did reasonably perfect. when you are testing the overall strength of a build you CAN discount certain games, for instance the first game I was supply capped and had micro problems due to right clicking too fast (in sc2 this gives an attack move command for some reason), Also I was attacking far too late in the LT games, after I modified the build and attacked earlier I had much more success. The build is really powerful but I needed more practice because I had never seen the double sentry block before while doing it. I slightly adjusted the build to attack earlier against 1 gate 1 core. If you watch the steppes game where I rushed, it was pretty successful until my micro mistake and somewhat clear that it would have done extremely well if I had not screwed it up. When analyzing raw strength of builds, saying the first 2 matter, when I obviously attacked too late, and even insane agreed, doesnt make sense. With the earlier attack against 1 gate 1 core which we only had 3 real games of practice of I won 2-1, discounting Desert Oasis, which he had 3 sentries out before my attack even reached, showing the long rush distances heavily affecting timing. To even test it on the various maps would require MANY games. The only conclusion from those games is that it seems likely with good micro the Terran can inflict heavy damage and usually win if he times it correctly, as the SCVs when properly microed are amazing. floophead if you want to test it more versus me, add me warturtle.warturtle | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
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dacthehork
United States2000 Posts
Just killed every protoss I played easily with this cheese, including some very very good players. It's also extremely hard to stop because it looks very much like a 1 rax fast expand if you hide the 2nd barracks | ||
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MeruFM
United States167 Posts
Even as a terran player, I could see how protoss can just do the first force field when half my scvs move up the ramp which he did not do. He already has 2 zealots there and a sentry there, with another coming. As long as the protoss player see that the terran is making 2 rax, they'll just make an extra sentry. Doesn't seem any more difficult to counter than early pool zerg attacks. And warturtle so could have won that last game if he made a ghost or two. the sentry field +2 armor is just too much for a marine heavy group to fight properly. | ||
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