• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:03
CEST 15:03
KST 22:03
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202559RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings What tournaments are world championships? RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Dewalt's Show Matches in China [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Post Pic of your Favorite Food! The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 905 users

[D] TvP Cheese rush overpowered?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Normal
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33374 Posts
March 13 2010 12:10 GMT
#1
My Friday skim over the Korean SC II communities shows that the hot topic right now is the prevalence of cheese rushes in TvP. Basically you rush with a handful of early marines and the vast majority of your SCVs. While this was not as viable on BW, this build is considered to be extremely difficult to stop in SC II.

I've read a few variations on the build order, stuff like 9 supply 11 rax 12 rax, or 10 rax 11 supply 11 rax. There are variations using orbital command to mine so you can send all of your scvs. All the matters is you send 6~8 marines and nearly all your SCVs (keep just enough at home to build from 2 rax).

The buzz I get is that it's really hard to stop straight up, with the only reliable way to stop it being to get a forge for cannons. And the terran response to scouting a forge is to simply expand ASAP for the huge build order advantage.

I've only had time to test it a few times, but I was really surprised at how fast you can get 6~8 marines to your opponent's base, and how powerful SCVs with the new AI can be.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
threehundred
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada911 Posts
March 13 2010 12:14 GMT
#2
lol! i do this quite a bit in many matches TvAnything, terran basically has the best t1 ranged units anyway, and unit blocking with scvs is logically superior. i've won a few TvT's and TvZ's especially just sending in my SCVS with my timing attack
KimTaeyeon MEDIC MU fighting! ^^;;
RisingTide
Profile Joined December 2008
Australia769 Posts
March 13 2010 12:15 GMT
#3
Oh god, I can see this being an absolute pain in the ass, what have you brought upon us!?
I don't see it being easy for a 13 gate toss to survive this push, even if you go zealot before core.
threehundred
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada911 Posts
March 13 2010 12:16 GMT
#4
probably why 2 gate is gona be standard play anyway
KimTaeyeon MEDIC MU fighting! ^^;;
jamvng
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada244 Posts
March 13 2010 12:17 GMT
#5
haha ive been going two proxy rax a lot against toss the last few games, and so far no counters....
MorroW
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden3522 Posts
March 13 2010 12:18 GMT
#6
in sc1 u had dragoon micro to take it down, but stalkers r way too weak imo :/ if they made stalkers stronger maybe this problem would be solved, wouldnt mind them making rines 40 hp and get +15 with the upgrade. t rine+scv own so much early game
Progamerpls no copy pasterino
pachi
Profile Joined October 2006
Melbourne5338 Posts
March 13 2010 12:34 GMT
#7
On March 13 2010 21:16 threehundred wrote:
probably why 2 gate is gona be standard play anyway


2 gate didnt work either. scvs block too well
Moderatorpachi fanclub http://goto.tl/6DI9 。◕‿◕。
Oddysay
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada597 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 12:56:08
March 13 2010 12:54 GMT
#8
why dont nerf terran then ? they got something working for them , let break it .

after all they dont play protoss or zerg so they got no reason to get some rush working for them .

in fact im 6-2 using this build , 2 loss was from 2 gateway + many probe send for def . you need to send probe for survive . but since you need probe that probably imbalanced . we need to nerf scv to 30 hp and add let say 10 sec for marine .

you protoss user have think about canon maybe ? and you can alway get the +1 attack at the same time .

after all maybe that the same reason for protoss , you play it too much like starcraft 1 and dont understand the race yet .
jamvng
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada244 Posts
March 13 2010 13:31 GMT
#9
if protoss scouts properly and get cannons, the cheez fails
Feefee
Profile Joined November 2009
Canada556 Posts
March 13 2010 13:44 GMT
#10
I take it this happens before toss can get sentries out? or is this more of a scrap station (i.e. map dependant) cheese?
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 14:43:38
March 13 2010 14:42 GMT
#11
On March 13 2010 21:54 Oddysay wrote:
why dont nerf terran then ? they got something working for them , let break it .

after all they dont play protoss or zerg so they got no reason to get some rush working for them .

in fact im 6-2 using this build , 2 loss was from 2 gateway + many probe send for def . you need to send probe for survive . but since you need probe that probably imbalanced . we need to nerf scv to 30 hp and add let say 10 sec for marine .

you protoss user have think about canon maybe ? and you can alway get the +1 attack at the same time .

after all maybe that the same reason for protoss , you play it too much like starcraft 1 and dont understand the race yet .

wow that is some seriously broken english, pretty hard to tell what you mean

On March 13 2010 22:31 jamvng wrote:
if protoss scouts properly and get cannons, the cheez fails


did you read the OP at all?

On March 13 2010 21:10 Waxangel wrote:And the terran response to scouting a forge is to simply expand ASAP for the huge build order advantage.

43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3103 Posts
March 13 2010 15:18 GMT
#12
*ahem*

BUFF STALKERS!

But, yeah, I think having Stalkers that actually did decent damage versus light would go a long way towards making this cheese more easily counterable by Protoss. With micro Stalkers should be the perfect counter to this kind of thing.

Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
Radiohead[YG]
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia52 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 15:21:08
March 13 2010 15:19 GMT
#13
I have been talking to kkong about this topic lately. Kkong is ranked the 4th in his platinum division ladder at the moment. I suppose everyone on TL.net knows him, yeah?

Basically this is what he told me - there is no way of stopping it, regardless of which build you take, 1 gate or 2 gate opening.

The only way to stop it is to take 1 gate -> forge build, and get cannons ASAP. Then again, if the Terran sees it - which he definately will, since there is no way of preventing the scv from scouting your base in the early game - all he has to do is just expand, and take advantage of having more resource.

There has to be something done quickly about this matter, since this has been happening in just about every T vs P game that's been played for the past few days, at least amongst the Korean players. The survival rate for the Protoss has been less than 10% - and I'm not kidding or exaggerating.
A pig in a cage on antibiotics
theuser
Profile Joined June 2008
Romania176 Posts
March 13 2010 15:20 GMT
#14
Time for Protoss to be on the defensive for once! it deserves it! Terran uber alles!
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 13 2010 17:59 GMT
#15
I've done this vs 1 gate core in BW too... It's easy to stop just pull all your probes and pump zealots out and you'll be fine. All you have to do is survive with anything at all and you're ahead because you have more tech.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 18:06:12
March 13 2010 18:03 GMT
#16
Time to start abusing this build and i mean it - let Blizz see how powerful it is
RPGabe
Profile Joined January 2010
United States192 Posts
March 13 2010 18:22 GMT
#17
I watched Orb lose a game to this last night, and he was very very upset. He blamed the slower gateway timing along with the warp gate nerf for why this strategy was "unstoppable".

Of course, he determined it was unstoppable after not scouting and losing to it in one game.
rackdude
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States882 Posts
March 13 2010 18:40 GMT
#18
On March 13 2010 22:31 jamvng wrote:
if protoss scouts properly and get cannons, the cheez fails


But he ends up economically behind, so you still have an advantage, marines out to contain, and you can expand. More troops, more minerals, and a safe transition. Fair?

(I just switched to Tarran because I was having trouble with this as P. LOLOLOL no one else can stop it too so I feel better
Sweet.
wintergt
Profile Joined February 2010
Belgium1335 Posts
March 13 2010 18:43 GMT
#19
Post some replays plz?
here i am
jamvng
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada244 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 18:48:51
March 13 2010 18:47 GMT
#20
On March 13 2010 23:42 TheAntZ wrote:

Show nested quote +
On March 13 2010 22:31 jamvng wrote:
if protoss scouts properly and get cannons, the cheez fails


did you read the OP at all?

Show nested quote +
On March 13 2010 21:10 Waxangel wrote:And the terran response to scouting a forge is to simply expand ASAP for the huge build order advantage.



LOL oooooooppsss i actually did..but tht was the first time i looked at the thread and then i went to play sc2 and forgot tht the OP said it

ive been doin another cheese build:
(ive said it previously already) 2 rax proxy rite off in the beginning with a rax at 9 and another rax at 10 and then pumping marines against T and P..and I've been winning non stop unless toss gets cannons rly early or terran gets a bunker...i duno if its because it CANT be stopped or ppl just arent scouting properly and its the same as any proxy rax cheese in BW
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
March 13 2010 18:53 GMT
#21
Wow... I noticed a lot of Ps opening with a forge in the PlayXP Tournament GTR just posted. I was really confused by it but I guess it's necessary to stop this rush . Sounds pretty bad.
starleague.mit.edu
Thorgouge
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6 Posts
March 13 2010 19:15 GMT
#22
Some replays of this would be nice to check out if anyone has some.
HTX
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany265 Posts
March 13 2010 19:17 GMT
#23

New game new BOs. Whats so bad that Protoss have to spend 150 for Forge or pull Probes to defend vs SCV? If you scout DTs you have to spend money on detection and P can go Expansion anyways. No one complains because we are used to it from SC1.
The internet: a horrible collective liar
jamvng
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada244 Posts
March 13 2010 19:18 GMT
#24
so why is it tht in BW u can stop this build and SC2 u cant? or is it just ppl arent playing properly?
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
March 13 2010 19:20 GMT
#25
On March 14 2010 04:17 HTX wrote:

New game new BOs. Whats so bad that Protoss have to spend 150 for Forge or pull Probes to defend vs SCV? If you scout DTs you have to spend money on detection and P can go Expansion anyways. No one complains because we are used to it from SC1.

The difference is if you build a forge, the Terran makes an expansion and ends up way ahead. Read the OP.

The difference of spending money on detection against DT rush is that in SC1, the Protoss could fast expand, but in doing so allows Terran to expand also. This build is essentially win straight up, or end up with a huge economic advantage.

Pulling probes won't necessarily help because the new AI allows SCVs to block incredibly well so that none of your units (including probes) can get to the marines to take them out.
saritenite
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Singapore1680 Posts
March 13 2010 19:24 GMT
#26
The day that Protoss goes forge first against Terran...I've been waiting for this.
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18918 Posts
March 13 2010 19:25 GMT
#27
On March 14 2010 04:20 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 04:17 HTX wrote:

New game new BOs. Whats so bad that Protoss have to spend 150 for Forge or pull Probes to defend vs SCV? If you scout DTs you have to spend money on detection and P can go Expansion anyways. No one complains because we are used to it from SC1.

The difference is if you build a forge, the Terran makes an expansion and ends up way ahead. Read the OP.

The difference of spending money on detection against DT rush is that in SC1, the Protoss could fast expand, but in doing so allows Terran to expand also. This build is essentially win straight up, or end up with a huge economic advantage.

Pulling probes won't necessarily help because the new AI allows SCVs to block incredibly well so that none of your units (including probes) can get to the marines to take them out.

Can't protoss go Forge -> expand, a la pvz? Is there something incredibly not-viable about it?
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4838 Posts
March 13 2010 19:29 GMT
#28
On March 14 2010 04:17 HTX wrote:

New game new BOs. Whats so bad that Protoss have to spend 150 for Forge or pull Probes to defend vs SCV? If you scout DTs you have to spend money on detection and P can go Expansion anyways. No one complains because we are used to it from SC1.

In SC1, the Terran is already on two bases with factory tech when he has to buy his statics.
My strategy is to fork people.
daz
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Canada643 Posts
March 13 2010 19:44 GMT
#29
On March 14 2010 04:17 HTX wrote:

New game new BOs. Whats so bad that Protoss have to spend 150 for Forge or pull Probes to defend vs SCV? If you scout DTs you have to spend money on detection and P can go Expansion anyways. No one complains because we are used to it from SC1.


it seems like you have no idea how to play either game, or you just didn't read the op. read op before posting please
Some eat to remember, some smash to forget. 2009msl.com
HTX
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany265 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 19:57:16
March 13 2010 19:46 GMT
#30
´
it seems like you have no idea how to play either game, or you just didn't read the op. read op before posting please

Actually i read it and he says its difficult and not impossible, so my response is that we should get used to new strategies. I tried to explain before that the gameflow has changed. Now we have other races at certain points which can contain the opponent and use it to macro up.


Honestly I cant see the T get such a huge advantage when all scvs are pulled of. But before we fight about uncertain things lets wait until someone posts a rep to see how long does it take P to recover if the Forge is used.
The internet: a horrible collective liar
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
March 13 2010 20:00 GMT
#31
--- Nuked ---
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
March 13 2010 20:21 GMT
#32
Someone did this to me and with the warp gate nerf it's literally 100% unstoppable t_t

SCVs are like 2x as good as probes and if you block off your rines with them so zealots can't get in it's ridiculous
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
AmstAff
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany949 Posts
March 13 2010 20:29 GMT
#33
patch 0.8:
building time for marines increased to XXX secs (500%) problem solved.

why always nerf P? lets just nerf every race totally stupid and randomly without thinking about the other matchups until every unit needs 10mins to build.
after 2 years i reached it = marine icon
squ1d
Profile Joined June 2007
United States178 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 20:32:34
March 13 2010 20:32 GMT
#34
On March 14 2010 05:29 MeProU_Kor wrote:
patch 0.8:
building time for marines increased to XXX secs (500%) problem solved.

why always nerf P? lets just nerf every race totally stupid and randomly without thinking about the other matchups until every unit needs 10mins to build.


Because they're retarded. Let's nerf this:

Increase build time of Barracks and Reactor by 1000%.
Increase build time of Spawning Pool by 500%.

And see what it does. Retarded choices generate retarded gameplay.
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
March 13 2010 20:52 GMT
#35
Look like forge defense is the only way to survive atm. So now the PvT mu is all about Toss trying to claw their way back from an econ disadvantage.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
March 13 2010 20:54 GMT
#36
On March 14 2010 05:32 squ1d wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 05:29 MeProU_Kor wrote:
patch 0.8:
building time for marines increased to XXX secs (500%) problem solved.

why always nerf P? lets just nerf every race totally stupid and randomly without thinking about the other matchups until every unit needs 10mins to build.


Because they're retarded. Let's nerf this:

Increase build time of Barracks and Reactor by 1000%.
Increase build time of Spawning Pool by 500%.

And see what it does. Retarded choices generate retarded gameplay.


On my stream I was saying blizzard is mentally handicapped for choosing the only solution suggested for PvP that also fucks with the other matchups and people were like "lol you think blizzard is retarded yet they made this game" or something along those lines.

But look at it... they honestly make the dumbest choices with these patches
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Carnac
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Germany / USA16648 Posts
March 13 2010 21:00 GMT
#37
they are trying out various things, calm down
ModeratorHi! I'm a .signature *virus*! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
duckhunt
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada311 Posts
March 13 2010 21:04 GMT
#38
koreans are so sad, they will do anything for a win LOL it doesnt make you a better player to scv rush, anyway most people play super greedy early game ( zergs going 13hatch expo for instance, you can send the scv that built your 11rax and rally rines to z and bunker him before his pool is done ) so maybe this can be dealt with faster scouting and chrono boosting zeals? T_T i dno i havent seen it.. maybe if i lose to cheese and get mad today i will use this strat lol
kimchiterran
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland81 Posts
March 13 2010 21:14 GMT
#39
This is why we need some low ground vs high ground penalty for range units, back in game. I'd say 50% of damage reduction will do fine (as I totally agree with Blizzard on not having "random" penalties in a competitive game, like we had in Broodwar).

Raven
kimchi makes perfect~
VorcePA
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1102 Posts
March 13 2010 21:18 GMT
#40
On March 14 2010 06:04 duckhunt wrote:
koreans are so sad, they will do anything for a win LOL it doesnt make you a better player to scv rush, anyway most people play super greedy early game ( zergs going 13hatch expo for instance, you can send the scv that built your 11rax and rally rines to z and bunker him before his pool is done ) so maybe this can be dealt with faster scouting and chrono boosting zeals? T_T i dno i havent seen it.. maybe if i lose to cheese and get mad today i will use this strat lol


Errrr.... "people" are so sad. The problem with making a game competitive is that people will do -anything- to win. Is that bad? No. Remember, this is a beta. The point of a beta test is to balance it to such an extent that it is generally a fun experience and so that the gameplay is deep.

Having an unstoppable build like the one in this thread is fun for terran players for about a week, but that will get boring to the masses, and it will never be fun for toss players if they go in to a game always knowing that they're going to lose. It's good this was caught during beta, and I have little doubt Blizzard will find some way to fix the timings so that terran players can still pull this cheese rush off, but also give protoss players a fighting chance.
Shitposting
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 21:38:39
March 13 2010 21:26 GMT
#41
I started doing this cheese today. I've won 5 or 6 times in a row, NO loss.
I went from silver league to gold one.
Thank you, this cheese worked vs all silver and gold players that I played against.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1083/screenshot001co.jpg
theqat
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States2856 Posts
March 13 2010 21:53 GMT
#42
Yep, Stalkers need buffin
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
March 13 2010 22:03 GMT
#43
surprisingly, this is probably a syndrome of the AI being too good in SC2, not marines or zealots or what not being OP =/

and @ people saying koreans are sad for abusing the best builds, guess you've never played games early beta/or new RTS games - that is literally all you are supposed to do find the best cheese builds, and abuse it, and then a counter is found, and it turns into a pure build order game where you have to accept slight advantages/disadvantages

which is very sad. But as all the optimists say..."this is just beta!"
and all the cynicists know better.
Sup
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 22:17:59
March 13 2010 22:17 GMT
#44
On March 14 2010 06:04 duckhunt wrote:
koreans are so sad, they will do anything for a win LOL it doesnt make you a better player to scv rush, anyway most people play super greedy early game ( zergs going 13hatch expo for instance, you can send the scv that built your 11rax and rally rines to z and bunker him before his pool is done ) so maybe this can be dealt with faster scouting and chrono boosting zeals? T_T i dno i havent seen it.. maybe if i lose to cheese and get mad today i will use this strat lol

Yeah, koreans are playing to win and that's why they were so weak in SC1.

You clearly do NOT understand how games evolve - people always play the best strategies over and over, until someone finds counter to that strategy.

Imagine that if Koreans didn't use carriers on katrina "BECAUSE THEY ARE OP111!111!" there would be no Flash build. That's a sad thought
MadLag
Profile Joined March 2010
Poland82 Posts
March 13 2010 22:28 GMT
#45
didnt morrow tried this in zotac finals and failed pretty bad (it was vs zerg tho ) ??
kimchiterran
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland81 Posts
March 13 2010 22:40 GMT
#46
Ok, I played several test games and I totally disagree it cannot be defended 100% of the time. 2 gate (even late second gate, with cyber/gas canceled) is playable counter. Zealots + probes are doing just fine.

Raven
kimchi makes perfect~
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
March 13 2010 22:42 GMT
#47
Best thing anyone can do at the moment is to abuse this build to the brim till blizzard realize how op it is hopefully give a better balance next patch. Unfortunately for me, most Terran I play against are idiots so I'm still able to claw my way back up after the disadvantage.
LuDwig-
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Italy1143 Posts
March 13 2010 22:43 GMT
#48
this issue should make blizzard team discuss and understand that is not viable a game where terran simply has thisuhuge leap from the opponents -.-
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120015&currentpage=98<--Search the HotBid's Post
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
March 13 2010 22:56 GMT
#49
On March 14 2010 07:40 kimchiterran wrote:
Ok, I played several test games and I totally disagree it cannot be defended 100% of the time. 2 gate (even late second gate, with cyber/gas canceled) is playable counter. Zealots + probes are doing just fine.

Raven


Please give a replay, because I'm 99% sure the terran you played against was terrribad or something.

Your zealots and probes shouldn't ever be able to get to the marines if the terran is microing correctly, and scvs (esp with marines behind) always beat probes in fights (by a huge margin)
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Mastermind
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada7096 Posts
March 13 2010 23:00 GMT
#50
On March 14 2010 03:22 RPGabe wrote:
I watched Orb lose a game to this last night, and he was very very upset. He blamed the slower gateway timing along with the warp gate nerf for why this strategy was "unstoppable".

Of course, he determined it was unstoppable after not scouting and losing to it in one game.

lol, ya, that guy is the biggest cry baby ever. I cant stand watching his stream anymore because all he does is whine and complain when he loses.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
March 13 2010 23:11 GMT
#51
To be honest, it IS the beta, Blizz isn't automatically going to see corellations like, stop warpgate rush in PvP --> Everyone goes BBS in TvP.
kimchiterran
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland81 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-13 23:15:40
March 13 2010 23:14 GMT
#52
@-orb-

I played several games in a row vs Tarson just to see if it's really 100% uncounterable. He's top6 in his platinum div (2077 ranking), I'm top4 in mine (2046 ranking). And damn, I'm not even a P user (I played P, Tarson used T).

The only case you have absolutely zero chance is when you force to keep mining gas and making gas units and/or using no probes for defense (you should use at least the same amount than T got the scvs) . Zealots are cutting the scvs and probe's damage is just fine to support to make it effective counter.

Please show me unbeatable rush played on top level, so far I saw no single replay of this here and yet everyone got convinced it's true. After having it played it does not really feel like "90% win ratio opening" when used by top players, but I'd love to change my mind if I see the 100% proven, unbeatable varation of this opening and play another series to make the final statement.

Raven
kimchi makes perfect~
trickser
Profile Joined October 2006
Germany139 Posts
March 13 2010 23:24 GMT
#53
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.

Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame.
Heart Catch Pre-Cure. Saa Mina De! Heart Catch Pre-Cure Hanasaka Seyo!
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
March 13 2010 23:25 GMT
#54
haha I it's funny to see so many people whose first response to a thread like this is defending the balance like it's something that comes ingrained in Blizzards games without any effort.

This is beta, of course there are going to be things like this. It'll get fixed and the game will move on.
Until then, abuse it so it gets fixed faster.

(somehow I have a feeling that most fun and creative play will happen in Beta.. once the launch is official and the balance changes become minimal, the Korean era starts)
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
March 13 2010 23:59 GMT
#55
On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.

Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame.

Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this
fantomex
Profile Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
March 14 2010 00:05 GMT
#56
Another bullshit thread about a new "ultimate" strategy but not a single replay to show for it.

Post a few replays of this beating good protoss players.
Replay or GTFO
forelmashi
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
421 Posts
March 14 2010 00:22 GMT
#57
scvs in general are really good and fleixble.. cause you have mules to keep your econ alive
AmstAff
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany949 Posts
March 14 2010 00:33 GMT
#58
On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.

Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame.

Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this


ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too.
after 2 years i reached it = marine icon
Mikilatov
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States3897 Posts
March 14 2010 00:34 GMT
#59
On March 14 2010 08:00 Mastermind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 03:22 RPGabe wrote:
I watched Orb lose a game to this last night, and he was very very upset. He blamed the slower gateway timing along with the warp gate nerf for why this strategy was "unstoppable".

Of course, he determined it was unstoppable after not scouting and losing to it in one game.

lol, ya, that guy is the biggest cry baby ever. I cant stand watching his stream anymore because all he does is whine and complain when he loses.


I can attest to this firsthand. =P He gets all bent out of shape and hostile against anyone who complains about imbalances except when it hurts his own race choice. I've personally been BM'ed by him twice now, in game. =P
♥ I used to lasso the shit out of your tournaments =( ♥ | Much is my hero. | zizi yO~ | Be Nice, TL.
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18918 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 00:35:59
March 14 2010 00:35 GMT
#60
On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:
On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.

Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame.

Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this


ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too.


...
O.O
Are you serious? I have to pull a scv to deal with probe/drone harass 90% of my games (in sc1).
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
JamesLame
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden25 Posts
March 14 2010 00:35 GMT
#61
On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:
On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.

Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame.

Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this


ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too.

It's still possible to harass/kill the SCV with your scout or w/e just stand close to it and A move and it will auto target it even tho you wouldn't be able to target it manually.
wintergt
Profile Joined February 2010
Belgium1335 Posts
March 14 2010 00:43 GMT
#62
On March 14 2010 09:05 fantomex wrote:
Another bullshit thread about a new "ultimate" strategy but not a single replay to show for it.

Post a few replays of this beating good protoss players.

Ye seriously I'm starting to think it's all a joke.
here i am
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
March 14 2010 00:48 GMT
#63
My last 6 PvT games I've just played, every single T went this build (I'm Plat top 8), and I've lost every one of them no matter what I did, 1 gate, 2gate, etc. I guess I'll have to start going forge first like the Korean P's just so I don't insta-lose.
KunfO
Profile Joined March 2010
United States81 Posts
March 14 2010 00:53 GMT
#64
On March 14 2010 09:48 teamsolid wrote:
My last 6 PvT games I've just played, every single T went this build (I'm Plat top 8), and I've lost every one of them no matter what I did, 1 gate, 2gate, etc. I guess I'll have to start going forge first like the Korean P's just so I don't insta-lose.


Mind posting a replay or two? I haven't seen this nor had it done to me yet and I'm curious just how badly this beats boosted 2 gate
Rothbardian
Profile Joined January 2010
United States497 Posts
March 14 2010 01:00 GMT
#65
On March 14 2010 04:20 Ryuu314 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 04:17 HTX wrote:

New game new BOs. Whats so bad that Protoss have to spend 150 for Forge or pull Probes to defend vs SCV? If you scout DTs you have to spend money on detection and P can go Expansion anyways. No one complains because we are used to it from SC1.

The difference is if you build a forge, the Terran makes an expansion and ends up way ahead. Read the OP.

The difference of spending money on detection against DT rush is that in SC1, the Protoss could fast expand, but in doing so allows Terran to expand also. This build is essentially win straight up, or end up with a huge economic advantage.

Pulling probes won't necessarily help because the new AI allows SCVs to block incredibly well so that none of your units (including probes) can get to the marines to take them out.


This is BS. Protoss is ahead economically in the early game due to CB. It takes two expo's and a little time before Terran catches up. At that point you go for Robo units, and Zealots.

Anyways, perhaps Protoss can't be so economically greedy anymore, and has to scout earlier?

Stalkers outrange Marines, so just micro....
"A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3
threehundred
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada911 Posts
March 14 2010 01:23 GMT
#66
7 pylon 8/10 gateway instead of 11+?

i mean on unblockable maps (well not really because you could micro a marine between a rax and a building (eg. supplydepot/command center in sc1) new terrans had to go 8 rax instead of 10/11 rax when opening against most opponents.
KimTaeyeon MEDIC MU fighting! ^^;;
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
March 14 2010 01:24 GMT
#67
Lol @ people who are still skeptical when the entire Korean scene (which is miles ahead of the silver/gold US players) has already shifted. These are the same people who didn't believe the PvP warp rush build was overpowered when it was first brought to attention on TL.
threehundred
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada911 Posts
March 14 2010 01:25 GMT
#68
I exclusively play terran and will never really use this build unless i want to mix-up my game play. I won't learn anything by proving I can win within the first few minutes because of auto surround and rally'ed attack move units.
KimTaeyeon MEDIC MU fighting! ^^;;
nujgnoy
Profile Joined December 2009
United States204 Posts
March 14 2010 01:26 GMT
#69
I have opinions for both sides:

1. Why do terrans do this? Protoss has 2 units that counter an entire tier of units. Colo hard counters all clumped bio and immortal counters tanks and thors. Basically, once robo is up and functioning the game gets really difficult for the terran to move out (as of now). Terran has to go starport to counter colo and ghost to counter immortal, but the problem is that protoss is so much more flexible. Immortal counters tanks, but it's still really good against bio because of it counters mauds. One colo can do huge damage to clumped units with the huge range and mobility. Ghost can't do much against colo, and while banshees are great, they're so gas heavy that the protoss can counter banshees with stalkers, because 1 banshee = 2 stalkers in terms of gas. Terrans can get better at 1) mechanics or 2) strategy to win, and it's just easier to change your strategy than to improve mechanics (much earlier gratification as well). I'm not saying that colo/immortal are imba, but rather that they're really difficult to deal with as a new terran, and some may choose to take the easy way. It's not just the terrans; the reason why warp gates were nerfed was that people used it to its fullest extent, proxying everywhere advantegeous. This type of behavior is present in all players, and doesn't involve race-specific identity.

2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.

Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
March 14 2010 01:30 GMT
#70
On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:
On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.

Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame.

Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this


ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too.


Uhm what? There is one stage in the construction time in SCBW where the scv goes inside the building and for all I knows it's totally random when that happens. I think there is at least 3 or 4 other positions it can build at which is attackable by melee units. By this information it would be 20% chance of that this constructing position occurs everytime the scv switches position. Also I'm pretty sure the scv cannot go to the same position 2 times in a row.
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
huameng
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States1133 Posts
March 14 2010 01:31 GMT
#71
On March 14 2010 10:26 nujgnoy wrote:
2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.



hahaha what the fuck are you talking about? We don't want there to be a totally abusable strategy that terrans have... but agree only to use in really important matches so blizzard doesn't nerf it. We should abuse anything and everything we can get our hands on... that's the whole point of the beta! You know the goal is to balance the game, right?
skating
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18918 Posts
March 14 2010 01:32 GMT
#72
On March 14 2010 10:26 nujgnoy wrote:


2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.


I disagree with this completely. If anything, we should abuse it as much as humanely possible while we can in the beta so that it can be balanced accordingly. Should we not abuse strategies like this in the beta stage, then its likely to leak out into competitive gameplay when the game is released and likely the competitive scene will lose respect for the game. The whole purpose of the beta is to balance the game and make it as good as possible for release. Do that by abusing units/strategies until it gets balanced or an effective counter is found.
ヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノDELETE ICEFROGヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(⌐■_■)ノヽ(
Rothbardian
Profile Joined January 2010
United States497 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 01:44:53
March 14 2010 01:42 GMT
#73
On March 14 2010 10:24 teamsolid wrote:
Lol @ people who are still skeptical when the entire Korean scene (which is miles ahead of the silver/gold US players) has already shifted. These are the same people who didn't believe the PvP warp rush build was overpowered when it was first brought to attention on TL.


Yeah, my 1650 in Platinum is obviously Silver/Gold....

Most cheeses win you the game, the first time you play an opponent. This type of Cheese works all the time in SC1 also, especially against players who are doing standard builds.
"A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3
nujgnoy
Profile Joined December 2009
United States204 Posts
March 14 2010 01:42 GMT
#74
On March 14 2010 10:32 Comeh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 10:26 nujgnoy wrote:


2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.


I disagree with this completely. If anything, we should abuse it as much as humanely possible while we can in the beta so that it can be balanced accordingly. Should we not abuse strategies like this in the beta stage, then its likely to leak out into competitive gameplay when the game is released and likely the competitive scene will lose respect for the game. The whole purpose of the beta is to balance the game and make it as good as possible for release. Do that by abusing units/strategies until it gets balanced or an effective counter is found.


As my second sentence says, my assumption is that this WILL be corrected. It's made headlines in korean sites already. I agree, for the sake of the game, imbalances should be abused. But, what I want to address here is that players are abusing it for the wrong reason: to win.

I'm arguing here that terran players shouldn't do this strategy for their own sake as well because it will NOT work in the future. Then they will be behind in mechanics and have no strategy.
forelmashi
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
421 Posts
March 14 2010 01:50 GMT
#75
winning is the only thing that matters
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
March 14 2010 01:53 GMT
#76
On March 14 2010 09:35 JamesLame wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:
On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:
On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.

Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame.

Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this


ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too.

It's still possible to harass/kill the SCV with your scout or w/e just stand close to it and A move and it will auto target it even tho you wouldn't be able to target it manually.

that works, you can also use the hit bars to see what side the scv is on which makes it easier

all t rushes are really really strong now, for some reason blizz seems to think that a good way to balance a matchup is to let one race have overpowered allins and give the other race a dominant late game.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Yasser
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany27 Posts
March 14 2010 01:55 GMT
#77
nice i definitly try this out, as an random player tvp is one of the hardest mu at the moment(talking about no chees ofc).
AmstAff
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany949 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 02:00:30
March 14 2010 01:56 GMT
#78
On March 14 2010 09:35 Comeh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:
On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:
On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.

Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame.

Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this


ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too.


...
O.O
Are you serious? I have to pull a scv to deal with probe/drone harass 90% of my games (in sc1).


u saw what i quoted?
all i wanted to say was:
if i could handle probe harass in sc1,
IT SHOUDL BE no problem for terrans in sc2, since the scv doesnt slide wide enough to get attacked now most of the time + probes lost range.

edit
idra upload some replays for the actual patch plz =)
after 2 years i reached it = marine icon
alphafuzard
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1610 Posts
March 14 2010 02:00 GMT
#79
On March 14 2010 10:42 nujgnoy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 10:32 Comeh wrote:
On March 14 2010 10:26 nujgnoy wrote:


2. Terrans shouldn't abuse this. Obviously, Blizzard isn't going to let a strategy like this shape the future of SC2 gaming. The more people abuse the strategy, the more likely that SCVs or marines will be nerfed. And this does nothing to improve your skill. You're gonna be terrible once the strategy fails or becomes nerfed. Except because of the abuse marines will have longer buildtime or scvs will have less health. We saw what happened to warp gates when protoss players used it to death; if we don't want the similar thing to happen to rax/marines/scvs, we should develop a more legitimate and stable way to progress the game.


I disagree with this completely. If anything, we should abuse it as much as humanely possible while we can in the beta so that it can be balanced accordingly. Should we not abuse strategies like this in the beta stage, then its likely to leak out into competitive gameplay when the game is released and likely the competitive scene will lose respect for the game. The whole purpose of the beta is to balance the game and make it as good as possible for release. Do that by abusing units/strategies until it gets balanced or an effective counter is found.


As my second sentence says, my assumption is that this WILL be corrected. It's made headlines in korean sites already. I agree, for the sake of the game, imbalances should be abused. But, what I want to address here is that players are abusing it for the wrong reason: to win.

I'm arguing here that terran players shouldn't do this strategy for their own sake as well because it will NOT work in the future. Then they will be behind in mechanics and have no strategy.

???
if people abused it and lost, it wouldn't be an imbalance
if people didn't abuse it, then it wouldn't get properly nerfed
i don't understand your point
more weight
JamesLame
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden25 Posts
March 14 2010 02:20 GMT
#80
Been trying it out vs every P I've met 100% win as of now (6games). Hasn't mattered what map it was or build they went, tho I haven't met anyone going forge yet...
Pulimuli
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Sweden2766 Posts
March 14 2010 02:21 GMT
#81
this is an all-in build, it should be difficult to stop. Just like BBS is in SC:BW, the protoss needs to make some early gates and use probes to defend, if P could just do a regular bo and rape this bo it wouldnt be that effectie. To counter an all-in you have to sacrifice some of your own eco, simple as that.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 14 2010 02:23 GMT
#82
On March 14 2010 10:53 IdrA wrote:
all t rushes are really really strong now, for some reason blizz seems to think that a good way to balance a matchup is to let one race have overpowered allins and give the other race a dominant late game.


I don't think protoss has a dominant late game at all, and perhaps this is a really strong allin, but it's probably a matter of learning how to scout it early enough to respond without being forced into a certain opening. Perhaps it's because I use mech T that love to drive the game into lategame where I feel I have a massive advantage. I do agree that bio is complete trash past earlygame, so perhaps this is what you're referring to?

In any case, as protoss I'd move out with that first stalker if I didn't scout gas on terran, since it's almost a sure sign of an allin. (If I get blocked out I'd be looking for rax addon). Those early stalkers can probably be micro'd all the way back to your base for a decent amount of damage/major delay to the allin. I think that'd be enough time to prepare what you need to deflect it. I haven't been playing protoss so perhaps I'm not aware of how hard this actually is to stop, but I feel like that'd help tremendously.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
March 14 2010 02:26 GMT
#83
You can't rly blame terrans for cheesing like this. We're just sick and tired of dealing with immortals and collosi...
im deaf
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 03:10:47
March 14 2010 02:30 GMT
#84
On March 14 2010 11:26 imBLIND wrote:
You can't rly blame terrans for cheesing like this. We're just sick and tired of dealing with immortals and collosi...


That's the saddest shit I've ever read. "We're not good enough to learn how to play, so we cheese instead." Get good and stop making all terrans look bad. I'm so tired of seeing this kind of talk on these forums.

To avoid double posting:

On another note I did just test this myself, somehow managing to get sc2 to run on my laptop (though it was like 3 fps lol). I played with my friend who isn't a terran player, but it's not that hard to execute this... I didn't even micro past casting guardian shield and I dismantled this strategy so hard with 1 gate core. It's a bad allin and easily scoutable. This is how you scout it:

-2 rax with no gas is almost 100% this allin. I don't know any build that exists that's 2 rax no gas.
-1 rax with gas but no factory, addon, ebay, or anything gas related (he probably is proxying that 2nd rax somewhere, or proxing a fact somewhere too, in which case you should still play safe)
-2 rax with gas but doesn't put scvs ON gas (why get gas when you're going allin?)

These things are completely suspicious and I think give away the allin. I'm not sure what all the variations/fakes of this there are, but I doubt you'll be blindsided if you know what to look for.

As for stopping it: Sentry immediately, 2nd gate, pull probes when he shows up (chrono your gates) and just get sentries as much as you can. Sentries rape marines so hard it's not funny, and they're pretty good vs everything so if he's an idiot and doing something weird you didn't waste all that money. I'll play it a few more times when I'm back at school on my desktop and stream it and upload replays if I get the time.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
March 14 2010 04:05 GMT
#85
On March 14 2010 10:53 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 09:35 JamesLame wrote:
On March 14 2010 09:33 MeProU_Kor wrote:
On March 14 2010 08:59 Kaniol wrote:
On March 14 2010 08:24 trickser wrote:
Can someone please post a replay? Everytime these threads pop up there are no replays to look at.

Also would be easy to fix by lowering scv healt to 50 or 40. Would also not change any of the other matchups or PvT mid to lategame.

Then make SCVs untargetable when building, because 60 hp is what compensates for this


ever played t in sc1? most of the times the scv even doesnt slide wide enough out of the building to get attacked. i think probes lost range too.

It's still possible to harass/kill the SCV with your scout or w/e just stand close to it and A move and it will auto target it even tho you wouldn't be able to target it manually.

that works, you can also use the hit bars to see what side the scv is on which makes it easier

all t rushes are really really strong now, for some reason blizz seems to think that a good way to balance a matchup is to let one race have overpowered allins and give the other race a dominant late game.


its so wierd seeing u hate on terran :O
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
fadeless
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
38 Posts
March 14 2010 04:13 GMT
#86
whoa
Done this on bnet first time. Instant win - -
Rothbardian
Profile Joined January 2010
United States497 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 04:22:19
March 14 2010 04:20 GMT
#87
On March 14 2010 13:13 fadeless wrote:
whoa
Done this on bnet first time. Instant win - -

No shit. Most Cheese wins you the game......when your opponent has no idea it's coming. I've lost to a few proxy Protoss who send their probe immediately to my base before I even scout. So naturally, now I just scout my base when I play against Protoss. Haven't lost to it since.

/sigh
"A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3
EmeraldSparks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1451 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 04:33:09
March 14 2010 04:32 GMT
#88
the fact that the only two people saying the cheese is easy to counter are the guy who said pvp warpgates is easy to counter and the guy who said his build stomped all bio, all the time, forever only make me more confident that this is actually a problem
But why?
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 14 2010 04:34 GMT
#89
On March 14 2010 13:32 EmeraldSparks wrote:
the fact that the only two people saying the cheese is easy to counter are the guy who said pvp warpgates is easy to counter and the guy who said his build stomped all bio, all the time, forever only make me more confident that this is actually a problem


The fact that I played a game vs this with a laptop that can barely even load up sc2 in the first place and won means it's a horrible allin.

Also I switched to terran, but my protoss vs bio is undefeated.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
EmeraldSparks
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States1451 Posts
March 14 2010 04:36 GMT
#90
On March 14 2010 13:34 Floophead_III wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 13:32 EmeraldSparks wrote:
the fact that the only two people saying the cheese is easy to counter are the guy who said pvp warpgates is easy to counter and the guy who said his build stomped all bio, all the time, forever only make me more confident that this is actually a problem


The fact that I played a game vs this with a laptop that can barely even load up sc2 in the first place and won means it's a horrible allin.

Also I switched to terran, but my protoss vs bio is undefeated.

I'm pretty sure you tested it out, got stomped by Zatic build several times in a row, then grudgingly conceded that your build did not, in fact, stomp all bio, all the time, as you had previously claimed, and then the thread was closed because you had spent four pages claiming that you could stomp Zatic easy.
But why?
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 14 2010 04:46 GMT
#91
I got cocky in my original post and said that it raped all bio builds easily. There are little adjustments you have to make to counter certain types of 1 base early rushes, but after some practice with TorcH I learned how to beat it. Those were also practice games. I have never lost a ladder game to a bio player. That's more accurate.

Regardless, we're getting off topic.

The point is that this rush only works right now because nobody has any clue it's coming. Proper scouting and knowing that it exists means you can correctly prepare. Pretty much all you have to do is as soon as you scout 2 rax no gas just start adding gates/pumping snowglobes. I think people lose to this also because they don't know to pull all their probes. You're facing like 12 scvs. Pull some damn probes.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Rothbardian
Profile Joined January 2010
United States497 Posts
March 14 2010 04:47 GMT
#92
Hey guys! I just found out, if you listen to Joe Satriani while playing SC II you become invincible and never lose a game!! Funnies aside.

If you scout you will win. If you don't you will lose. That is the way of all cheese.
"A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 14 2010 04:48 GMT
#93
On March 14 2010 13:47 Rothbardian wrote:
If you scout you will win. If you don't you will lose. That is the way of all cheese.


Amen.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Meta
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States6225 Posts
March 14 2010 05:04 GMT
#94
Clearly they must re-establish the shield battery. The least used building ever does have it's niche in stopping all-ins. Tempest's 36 kill goon comes to mind.
good vibes only
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 14 2010 05:41 GMT
#95
While I slightly agree with floophead. I still feel there's a problem here. Possibly bring back gate build times to their original state.

I have to admit it is pretty easy to roflstomp unsuspecting protoss with this builds. Even with 3 gates up and several "snow globes" i still roll over the toss.

Then again just out of pure disgust with the build I rarely go it unless I lost the previous game and am nerd raging.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
March 14 2010 05:44 GMT
#96
Sorry I don't have the beta , but how strong are cannons at stopping this? Is there any possibility of a forge FE and just go 2base vs 2base? Or do marines overwhelm cannons too easily?
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 14 2010 05:45 GMT
#97
Some maps it's just hard to forge expand cause not every map has a natural. It's also extremely risky to go that build, have terran scout it, and then have them punish you for it.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
ShineShineBear
Profile Joined November 2009
United States62 Posts
March 14 2010 06:01 GMT
#98
What do you guys think of setting SCV hp to 50?
Inschato
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Canada1349 Posts
March 14 2010 06:04 GMT
#99
On March 14 2010 14:04 Meta wrote:
Clearly they must re-establish the shield battery. The least used building ever does have it's niche in stopping all-ins. Tempest's 36 kill goon comes to mind.

Maybe if they added the shield recharge spell to the nexus, it might give protoss some question of whether to chrono boost to get more units in, or recharge to save current units?
3.
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 14 2010 06:05 GMT
#100
Interesting suggestion, but I think it's unnecessary.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 14 2010 06:09 GMT
#101
Honestly, you can't beat this without pulling all your probes, and you will lose a lot, but you'll be ahead and it's an easy win from there on out. There's no reason to change the game because this allin exists. It's a losing allin if scouted, and it's pretty hard to keep it from being spotted. You might as well proxy BBS.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
March 14 2010 06:28 GMT
#102
On March 14 2010 15:09 Floophead_III wrote:
Honestly, you can't beat this without pulling all your probes, and you will lose a lot, but you'll be ahead and it's an easy win from there on out. There's no reason to change the game because this allin exists. It's a losing allin if scouted, and it's pretty hard to keep it from being spotted. You might as well proxy BBS.


Not sure what you are talking about, against a good Terran micro, pulling prob does really do much since the Terran will just pull back and forth causing you to loose mining time.
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
March 14 2010 06:34 GMT
#103
Floophead if it's so possible to stop explain to me why the top protoss in the PlayXP tournament in Korea was opening a blind 3 cannons before gateway vs terran :/
starleague.mit.edu
metaldragon
Profile Joined October 2009
United States251 Posts
March 14 2010 06:34 GMT
#104
the terran is losing more mining time...its just like floophead said. Pull probes, live,win!
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 14 2010 06:42 GMT
#105
On March 14 2010 15:28 Yamoth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 15:09 Floophead_III wrote:
Honestly, you can't beat this without pulling all your probes, and you will lose a lot, but you'll be ahead and it's an easy win from there on out. There's no reason to change the game because this allin exists. It's a losing allin if scouted, and it's pretty hard to keep it from being spotted. You might as well proxy BBS.


Not sure what you are talking about, against a good Terran micro, pulling prob does really do much since the Terran will just pull back and forth causing you to loose mining time.


Force field behind him, kill him, you've won.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
March 14 2010 07:02 GMT
#106
A good timing push from the Terran can hit before sentry have enough energy and even if it is up, they can just wait for it to run out. Remember they got scv blocking also and reinforcement streaming in while your zealot and prob are busy. Like I say before, the only really viable way to defend this seems to be to build 2 cannons.
ROOTFayth
Profile Joined January 2004
Canada3351 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 07:18:05
March 14 2010 07:17 GMT
#107
I don't believe they changed warpgate to fix PvP, WHY would you ever need to balance a mirror MU, it is already balanced by definition, it doesn't make sense at all that a warp gate rush would be unstoppable?

As for the TvP rush, I haven't tried it and I'm not really interested in trying it, seems pretty damn mindless to me, but I'm guessing it's pretty hard to beat, and the only reason for that is the new improved AI of peons
geno
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States1404 Posts
March 14 2010 07:20 GMT
#108
On March 14 2010 16:17 Fayth wrote:
I don't believe they changed warpgate to fix PvP, WHY would you ever need to balance a mirror MU, it is already balanced by definition, it doesn't make sense at all that a warp gate rush would be unstoppable?

As for the TvP rush, I haven't tried it and I'm not really interested in trying it, seems pretty damn mindless to me, but I'm guessing it's pretty hard to beat, and the only reason for that is the new improved AI of peons

It has nothing to do with balance, it has to do with diversity and entertainment in the game. If only one build becomes viable, even if its clearly balanced because its a mirror, it makes the game very stale and uninteresting.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 07:35:38
March 14 2010 07:29 GMT
#109
Hmm... If you saw it coming, you could actually wall off your ramp with a pylon and rally your units inside your base. Then delay him with the stalkers that are outside your base. Let's say you leave enough room to wall it off with a single pylon. You scout his mass of workers moving across the map. You build the pylon and close the ramp, and it should complete by the time he arrives. Then, you could attempt to pick off marines with your stalkers while you dance around outside your base, delay him and keep building. By the time he kills the pylon you'll have some more guys, maybe enough to deal with him?

On March 14 2010 16:17 Fayth wrote:
I don't believe they changed warpgate to fix PvP, WHY would you ever need to balance a mirror MU, it is already balanced by definition, it doesn't make sense at all that a warp gate rush would be unstoppable?

Balance also means having a number of strats which are equally viable.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
March 14 2010 07:31 GMT
#110
On March 14 2010 16:17 Fayth wrote:
I don't believe they changed warpgate to fix PvP, WHY would you ever need to balance a mirror MU, it is already balanced by definition, it doesn't make sense at all that a warp gate rush would be unstoppable?
If theres an rts game with just 1 faction, any set of unit stats is as good as any then?

If a mirror plays stupidly its as much a problem as with any matchup.

As for the TvP rush, I haven't tried it and I'm not really interested in trying it, seems pretty damn mindless to me, but I'm guessing it's pretty hard to beat, and the only reason for that is the new improved AI of peons

Thats a stupid simplification, like that would be the only thing changed from SC. Stats of every earlygame unit/building affects the rushes strength, not just AI of 1 unit. And its useless to blame the AI anyway, since the AI quite surely wont change.
If you have to ask, you don't know.
Rothbardian
Profile Joined January 2010
United States497 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 07:39:42
March 14 2010 07:38 GMT
#111
On March 14 2010 16:31 JohannesH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 16:17 Fayth wrote:
I don't believe they changed warpgate to fix PvP, WHY would you ever need to balance a mirror MU, it is already balanced by definition, it doesn't make sense at all that a warp gate rush would be unstoppable?
If theres an rts game with just 1 faction, any set of unit stats is as good as any then?

If a mirror plays stupidly its as much a problem as with any matchup.

Show nested quote +
As for the TvP rush, I haven't tried it and I'm not really interested in trying it, seems pretty damn mindless to me, but I'm guessing it's pretty hard to beat, and the only reason for that is the new improved AI of peons

Thats a stupid simplification, like that would be the only thing changed from SC. Stats of every earlygame unit/building affects the rushes strength, not just AI of 1 unit. And its useless to blame the AI anyway, since the AI quite surely wont change.


So then what is your solution? To nerf, the weakest race at the moment? It's most basic unit?

I highly doubt this all-in is "invincible". You just have to scout it, and adjust accordingly like any all-in. They lose a lot of mining time while they traverse the map, not to mention if they have 1-2 rax AND OC, and they pull enough SCV to keep production you should be able to rape that. That is a lot of SCV/Marine missing from an All-in and coming late too. Look at SC I when Boxer pulled the SCV/Marine all-in on Yellow. He didn't wait around at all. First 3-4 marines and go.

Stalkers also outrange Marines. Read that again: Stalkers outrange Marines.
"A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 07:41:41
March 14 2010 07:39 GMT
#112
^ Yes, I agree.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
March 14 2010 07:41 GMT
#113
On March 14 2010 16:38 Rothbardian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 16:31 JohannesH wrote:
On March 14 2010 16:17 Fayth wrote:
I don't believe they changed warpgate to fix PvP, WHY would you ever need to balance a mirror MU, it is already balanced by definition, it doesn't make sense at all that a warp gate rush would be unstoppable?
If theres an rts game with just 1 faction, any set of unit stats is as good as any then?

If a mirror plays stupidly its as much a problem as with any matchup.

As for the TvP rush, I haven't tried it and I'm not really interested in trying it, seems pretty damn mindless to me, but I'm guessing it's pretty hard to beat, and the only reason for that is the new improved AI of peons

Thats a stupid simplification, like that would be the only thing changed from SC. Stats of every earlygame unit/building affects the rushes strength, not just AI of 1 unit. And its useless to blame the AI anyway, since the AI quite surely wont change.


So then what is your solution? To nerf, the weakest race at the moment? It's most basic unit?

I highly doubt this all-in is "invincible". You just have to scout it, and adjust accordingly like any all-in. They lose a lot of mining time while they traverse the map, not to mention if they have 1-2 rax AND OC, and they pull enough SCV to keep production you should be able to rape that. That is a lot of SCV/Marine missing from an All-in and coming late too. Look at SC I when Boxer pulled the SCV/Marine all-in on Yellow. He didn't wait around at all. First 3-4 marines and go.

Stalkers also outrange Marines. Read that again: Stalkers outrange Marines.

stalkers actually do negative damage. when you shoot a marine with a stalker it gains health.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
March 14 2010 07:43 GMT
#114
On March 14 2010 16:29 cartoon]x wrote:
Hmm... If you saw it coming, you could actually wall off your ramp with a pylon and rally your units inside your base. Then delay him with the stalkers that are outside your base. Let's say you leave enough room to wall it off with a single pylon. You scout his mass of workers moving across the map. You build the pylon and close the ramp, and it should complete by the time he arrives. Then, you could attempt to pick off marines with your stalkers while you dance around outside your base, delay him and keep building. By the time he kills the pylon you'll have some more guys, maybe enough to deal with him?

Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 16:17 Fayth wrote:
I don't believe they changed warpgate to fix PvP, WHY would you ever need to balance a mirror MU, it is already balanced by definition, it doesn't make sense at all that a warp gate rush would be unstoppable?

Balance also means having a number of strats which are equally viable.


The mass of marine will burn down that pylon in matter of seconds. Not to mention stalker does crap damage against marine.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 07:49:28
March 14 2010 07:43 GMT
#115
If marines are firing at the pylon, you should be firing at the marines? If the marines turn to fire at you, you run? I do realize they will burn it down, but I'm not so sure it will happen in a "matter of seconds". Do you not think you could buy yourself enough time to get maybe 2 more units in play?

What about building your cybernetics core / gateway at your ramp as an opening, and attempting to wall off the ramp with a third gateway instead of a pylon?
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
March 14 2010 07:51 GMT
#116
Won't work, the marine will focus fire on the pylon and shut down your unit production completely. Remember, this marine all in is not a small pack of marine. The marine all in consist of at least 8 to 12 marine with only like 4 or 5 scv. While everything happen, the Terran player can continuously reinforce his ball with more and more marine especially if he proxy rax. For the record, if you start producing stalking against a marine ball, you loose automatically.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 08:01:06
March 14 2010 07:56 GMT
#117
You can't build your two pylons far enough back to where they power the gateways and cybernetics cores blocking your ramp but are out of range of the marines?
If you went stalkers, reinforcements shouldnt be a problem. You would pick those off if they tried to reinforce while you were harassing the marine ball. If you can delay him long enough to get cannons, he is at a disadvantage, since he has pulled workers off.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 08:01:56
March 14 2010 07:59 GMT
#118
then they would just burn down the gateway with little no to resistance from the toss. generally, it is a bad idea for a toss to wall itself off from terran since all terran units are range so they can focus fire alot more effectively than toss. reason why toss able to deal with stuff like this before was because the warp finished faster and toss able to pump out enough unit to either kill or chase the marine ball away. Toss wall in actually benefit terran cause it will make it easier for terran to funnel toss units.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 08:07:43
March 14 2010 08:01 GMT
#119
Hmm... Well, I believe the idea of the wall is to delay them, with the help of stalkers. You will not be going zealots, or fighting melee style on your ramp. You aren't being funneled, you are firing from on top the hill / behind the ball with stalkers, and teching to cannons.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
March 14 2010 08:06 GMT
#120
On March 14 2010 17:01 cartoon]x wrote:
If they are firing on the gateway then you are firing on them with your stalkers.


What part of stalker does crap damage against marine do you not understand. Seriously, do you even play the beta or are you just theory crafting?
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
March 14 2010 08:08 GMT
#121
I don't play the Beta. I am theory crafting. But I do know that David Kim opens every PvT game with stalkers ^_^.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
March 14 2010 08:15 GMT
#122
On March 14 2010 17:08 cartoon]x wrote:
I don't play the Beta. I am theory crafting. But I do know that David Kim opens every PvT game with stalkers ^_^.


Things change dramatically since then. Barrack build faster while gateway build slower and warp tech take almost 3 times as long to finish thus reduce the number of units have when Terran hit you with his marine ball.
Arco
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2090 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 08:40:35
March 14 2010 08:19 GMT
#123
They should just add Shield Battery effect to Nexus. Sounds like it would be a simple solution to this problem.

In SC1 and SC2 all races except SC2 protoss have an early defense structure that comes from normal tech means.

SC1:
Spawning Pool > Sunken Colony
Barracks > Bunker
Gateway > Shield Battery

SC2:
Spawning Pool > Spine Crawler
Barracks > Bunker
Gateway > ???

Even in SC1, gate>core was 'viable' (re: survivable) in PvZ without getting a Forge right away, this just seems dumb to force you into going Forge first to defend against a ridiculously powerful all-in. Not to mention, on maps like Desert Oasis and Scrap Station where your natural isn't sharing a choke with your main, you'd have to get Cannons in base and FE would be impossible.

When the Dark Pylon/Obelisk was scraped, why didn't they reimplement its abilities somewhere? You could speed up units, cloak a unit, and restore caster energy. Two of the three abilities could definitely be applied to help protect against this rush. I'm not fans of them, but they used to exist. I think they should just add Shield Restoration to Nexus. This seems like a logical solution, and gives a more "strategic" choice to using Chrono Boost vs x ability.

I think this seems like the most plausible solution without effecting other matchups. Obviously other ideas would be to buff stalkers and/or add Blink to Cybernetics Core, which would have an actual (negative?) impact on other MUs. (Though, my bias as Protoss says Stalkers could use the help all around )
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 08:22:25
March 14 2010 08:20 GMT
#124
The slower gateway I believe was a compensation for chrono boost. The warp ins are indeed a major setback. But I am not convinced the method I described won't successfully delay the opponent enough for you to get cannons. I would at least be willing to try it.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
March 14 2010 08:35 GMT
#125
--- Nuked ---
Jyxz
Profile Joined November 2009
United States117 Posts
March 14 2010 08:37 GMT
#126
yeah stalkers are so weak its just plan stupid, they should do like twice the damamge they do
This is Jimmy
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 08:44:03
March 14 2010 08:42 GMT
#127
On March 14 2010 17:35 Inori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 17:20 cartoon]x wrote:
The slower gateway I believe was a compensation for chrono boost. The warp ins are indeed a major setback. But I am not convinced the method I described won't successfully delay the opponent enough for you to get cannons. I would at least be willing to try it.

So the whole wall blocking was to get cannons? Did you actually read at least the OP?

If he has pulled workers off and is at your base with them, it is perfectly fine to get cannons. At that point, cannons no longer represent an economic disadvantage. He has lost the economic advantage by pulling workers. The issue with going cannons off the bat is if he does not do the worker pull. In that instance, you are behind and have done the wrong build order.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Rothbardian
Profile Joined January 2010
United States497 Posts
March 14 2010 08:43 GMT
#128
By the time the Terran has 8-12 Marines, you should have plenty of Zealots. Make the Marines dance, and out comes your Colo. Seriously, if a Terran is waiting until they get 8-12 Marines AND pulling SCV, that should be auto-win for Toss. I should know, I've tried early pushes against a fast teching Toss with less marines than that and still have a lot of trouble stopping it. An early Marine push is not all-in, fyi.

Chronoboost your Gateways after you do the first few on your Nexus. For some odd reason I suspect this "all-in" isn't a 12 Marine push LOL.
"A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 08:51:00
March 14 2010 08:50 GMT
#129
Yamoth: The rush, according to the OP, involves pulling nearly all the SCVs off mining. But according to you, they only pull 4 or 5 SCVs. So who's right?
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 14 2010 09:01 GMT
#130
There are multiple marine allins. The one in the OP is 6 marine + all scv. It's not a good allin and it's easily stopped. You're going to notice he doesn't get gas, which means marine allin, which means get mass sentry and be ready to pull probes. In addition if you are scouting correctly you'll see him leave his base (always place a probe outside his main to check for when he's pushing). This strategy is complete cheese trash.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 09:10:10
March 14 2010 09:05 GMT
#131
--- Nuked ---
nodule
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada931 Posts
March 14 2010 09:05 GMT
#132
+2 stalker base damage
-5s gateway build time
+5s reactor build time

ho hum...
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 11:01:13
March 14 2010 09:12 GMT
#133
Your response is basically a crock of shit. You build the gateway when you see he has pulled SCVs. If he turns around at that point, you can cancel the gateway. This exchange ends with you having an economic advantage. Soon after you biuld the gateway, at around the time he's halfway to your base, you will have enough money to put down a forge. Again, at this point, if he scouts this and turns back you can just as easily cancel your forge. And you will gain a substantial advantage by him pulling off workers, and then aborting. So your response is not reasonable.
In terms of your stalkers delaying him, I think you could get cannons. If it is a 8 marine / all scv rush, it takes a fair bit of time to kill a gateway while being harassed. The forge will probably get up shortly after he arrives at your base. Now, if he's brought that many SCVs, all you have to do is survive and you're going to win. So by all means, build them by your other gateway near your nexus.
I like the guys suggestion up there of recognizing the zero gas build and going for sentries. That would actually be the first thing I tried. That or laying down a forge right when I saw the no gas build.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
March 14 2010 09:15 GMT
#134
With mule even all scvs off minerals may not nessessarily be all in as long as they have enough energy for mule calldowns to allow constant scv reproducrtion. But from what i understand the amount of SCV left on minerals is enough to allow both repopulation of SCVs AND continued production of marines from the rax.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
Feefee
Profile Joined November 2009
Canada556 Posts
March 14 2010 09:41 GMT
#135
I hope this is beatable somehow^^; I like the current state of TvP...
kimchiterran
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland81 Posts
March 14 2010 09:44 GMT
#136
So... wall of text and still no single replay?

Raven
kimchi makes perfect~
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
March 14 2010 09:51 GMT
#137
On March 14 2010 17:43 Rothbardian wrote:
By the time the Terran has 8-12 Marines, you should have plenty of Zealots. Make the Marines dance, and out comes your Colo. Seriously, if a Terran is waiting until they get 8-12 Marines AND pulling SCV, that should be auto-win for Toss. I should know, I've tried early pushes against a fast teching Toss with less marines than that and still have a lot of trouble stopping it. An early Marine push is not all-in, fyi.

Chronoboost your Gateways after you do the first few on your Nexus. For some odd reason I suspect this "all-in" isn't a 12 Marine push LOL.

fast possible robo bay starts around the time the rush is approaching your base. dont post if you havent actually played the game.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
ProoM
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Lithuania1741 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 10:01:16
March 14 2010 09:59 GMT
#138
protoss'es can get forge if they scout 2 rax, then when they see scvs coming just make cannons @ his expansion, and even if T decides not to attack, some mining time is lost, money on 2nd rax spent and protoss can expand to his natural with no problems. If T tries to expand by cutting units for reinforcements in contain, protoss breaks out easily and expands himself, takes the map control etc. etc. :}
IMBA - International Mountain Bicycling Association.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 10:20:34
March 14 2010 10:16 GMT
#139
I agree Raven, we need a replay to really settle this.
Forge on sight of two rax would be inconvenient. Maybe if your probe stays alive long enough and you dont spot gas going up, forge is reasonable.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
kimchiterran
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland81 Posts
March 14 2010 10:23 GMT
#140
So far I easily defended all variations of this rush just with base 2 gate zealots opening (no forge). Late second gate still makes it suitable. I chrono boosted my gates and used part of the probes to fight of course. And I'm not even a Protoss user.

Raven
kimchi makes perfect~
Rothbardian
Profile Joined January 2010
United States497 Posts
March 14 2010 10:27 GMT
#141
On March 14 2010 18:51 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 17:43 Rothbardian wrote:
By the time the Terran has 8-12 Marines, you should have plenty of Zealots. Make the Marines dance, and out comes your Colo. Seriously, if a Terran is waiting until they get 8-12 Marines AND pulling SCV, that should be auto-win for Toss. I should know, I've tried early pushes against a fast teching Toss with less marines than that and still have a lot of trouble stopping it. An early Marine push is not all-in, fyi.

Chronoboost your Gateways after you do the first few on your Nexus. For some odd reason I suspect this "all-in" isn't a 12 Marine push LOL.

fast possible robo bay starts around the time the rush is approaching your base. dont post if you havent actually played the game.


I have played the game. If you read what I posted, your Zealots should make the Marines dance, which buys you time to get your higher tech units out.

I'm 101-68 with 1650 ELO in Platinum. Not that, that means much, but whatever.
"A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
March 14 2010 10:28 GMT
#142
Are scvs still 60 hp? I mean why would they? The early game rushes as P and Z are very ineffective in comparison with sc1, where 60 hp scvs where a neccesity. Why such a big boost for scv? The current abuse is a natural consequence of scvs being so strong compared to other miners.
RivalryRedux
Profile Joined July 2009
United States173 Posts
March 14 2010 10:37 GMT
#143
I'm curious how early this rush is hitting if done correctly. From my experience as Terran, 6 marines + scvs should be at your ramp at around 4:15 to 4:30 game time (not proxy) which would be enough time to have 4-6 zealots if you two gate.

Vexki
Profile Joined February 2010
Australia36 Posts
March 14 2010 11:00 GMT
#144
Do any of the people suggesting canons realise that a forge + 2 canons is 450 minerals while a command center is 400 minerals? Or that the terran player also has a scout with which they can see you spending all your minerals on canons at which point they can just decide to expand? Or that all of these points were covered on like the first page? If the terran player gets to 8 marines and sees you have gone for canons they can expand at about 5:00 to 5:30. You will not have the tech or the minerals to stop this expansion if you made canons, you will have to wait until the midgame unless you feel like sending your units in to die.

2 options:
a) Protoss player doesn't get early canons, terran player wins outright
b) Protoss player does get early canons, terran player easily sees this and expands instead, protoss player can't do anything about this while terran gets ahead in economy.

sib-pelle
Profile Joined November 2008
Sweden162 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 16:08:21
March 14 2010 11:01 GMT
#145
I want to see some replays please
Jangbi fanboy & Gaming Community Scientist
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 11:24:04
March 14 2010 11:03 GMT
#146
Presuming you've walled yourself in in response to his pulling SCVs, you don't actually build the forge until he's about halfway to your base. In this instance him scouting you is much less of a concern since you're opening with stalkers.
The option for the terran going fast expand does seem to eliminate the possibility of scouting no gas and laying down a forge, though. Sentries are still an interesting suggestion.

Also: couldn't you hide your forge, get a sentry, and build cannons while he's delayed by forcefield? You would do this upon sighting no gas
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
dacthehork
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2000 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 12:01:28
March 14 2010 12:00 GMT
#147
The key to executing this build.

10 supply depot
11 Barracks
12 Barracks
Constantly produce marines
you will need another supply depot

When you have 5 ish marines you make the orbital command. keep mining until orbital is like 70% done, Send ALL SCVs, send all marines.

Keep the SCVs in front of the marines, dont send them in attack move, but use them defensively. You need as much damage as possible from the marrines. With proper micro Terran wins EVERY time.

MAKE SURE YOU GET A LARGER FORCE OF MARINES 8-9 is good and DONT use the SCVs offensively, keep them just in front of the marines and if possible micro them as good as possible (use mineral trick to pull back damaged ones)

You can beat any protoss force possible at this point. The ranged + melee vs all melee advantage is too high.
Warturtle - DOTA 2 is KING
HyDRa
Profile Joined May 2003
Sweden70 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 12:18:23
March 14 2010 12:16 GMT
#148
Ops. delete.
Mot Sherwoodskogen!
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
March 14 2010 13:23 GMT
#149
On March 14 2010 19:23 kimchiterran wrote:
So far I easily defended all variations of this rush just with base 2 gate zealots opening (no forge). Late second gate still makes it suitable. I chrono boosted my gates and used part of the probes to fight of course. And I'm not even a Protoss user.

Raven


Replay?
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
x2fst
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
1272 Posts
March 14 2010 13:58 GMT
#150
pre-beta some made the prediction that the foreigner scene would lead the charge when it came to innovation in sc2. afaik that was based on the opinion that koreans dominate scbw with mechanics while foreigners tend to exhibit more flair, as well as other assumptions about how each group would react to the differences between scbw and sc2

so it’s interesting that the 2 biggest stories regarding strategy or imbalance i’ve heard of have been pvp warpgates and the tvp rine+scv rush, which afaik were both developed on the asia server. it seems logical that the obvious imbalances in the game would be discovered by the more creative community heh, so....
muda, is a crime for me to wear a shirt, cos I is so good lookin
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
March 14 2010 14:12 GMT
#151
On March 14 2010 22:58 x2fst wrote:
pre-beta some made the prediction that the foreigner scene would lead the charge when it came to innovation in sc2. afaik that was based on the opinion that koreans dominate scbw with mechanics while foreigners tend to exhibit more flair, as well as other assumptions about how each group would react to the differences between scbw and sc2

so it’s interesting that the 2 biggest stories regarding strategy or imbalance i’ve heard of have been pvp warpgates and the tvp rine+scv rush, which afaik were both developed on the asia server. it seems logical that the obvious imbalances in the game would be discovered by the more creative community heh, so....

just because its publicized there doesnt mean it was developed there, i dunno about the rine allin but warpgates were being abused quite early on the us server
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
x2fst
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
1272 Posts
March 14 2010 14:35 GMT
#152
true... u got an opinion on that in general?
muda, is a crime for me to wear a shirt, cos I is so good lookin
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
March 14 2010 14:57 GMT
#153
ive played like 7 games on asia and i avoid watching artosis replays on principle, i dont really have any idea how they play. id imagine foreigners would be more creative, but the top koreans are largely war3 players, and amongst americans the war3 players seem to be quick to pick up abusive cheesy stuff (out of necessity since they suck ass beyond it).
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
TurboMaN
Profile Joined October 2005
Germany925 Posts
March 14 2010 15:11 GMT
#154
Its easy to use vs Protoss with normal builds, Terrans with 1 Rax and Wall and vs Zerg with 12 Hatch.

9 pool is difficult but possible to win if zerg doesnt micro well
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
March 14 2010 15:23 GMT
#155
Sentry, forcefield -> works.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
March 14 2010 15:28 GMT
#156
On March 15 2010 00:23 G.s)NarutO wrote:
Sentry, forcefield -> works.


If the build is executed properly it is impossible to have a sentry out already
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
March 14 2010 15:32 GMT
#157
On March 14 2010 19:23 kimchiterran wrote:
So far I easily defended all variations of this rush just with base 2 gate zealots opening (no forge). Late second gate still makes it suitable. I chrono boosted my gates and used part of the probes to fight of course. And I'm not even a Protoss user.

Raven


Post a replay and your rank/league or you will be ignored.

Clearly either 1: your opponents are trash or 2: you're not telling the truth
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 16:22:13
March 14 2010 16:21 GMT
#158
so I felt like testing the timings out in single player.
I used a stopwatch instead of the replay bar since I don't actually have access to my working replays. I'll just add +5 seconds to my terran rush timing and I think it should be ok.

So I tried the 10rax 11supply 11rax 16 supply.
Scouted with scv that finished first barracks. Moved out with all but 4 scvs when 6 marines popped.
I got to cross position LT at 3:15 + 5second extra = 3:20 rush timing.

No scout for any of the protoss builds. For both sentry builds I stopped gas at exactly 100 for 1 sentry.
+ Show Spoiler +

Fast sentry
8 pylon
11 gateway
I chrono boosted my sentry and my zealot one time each. 2nd zealot was starting around 3:25 so I'll overestimate and say Protoss has 2zealots + sentry @ 3:20.

+ Show Spoiler +

Another fast sentry build
9pylon
12 Gate
@3:20 I had 1 sentry 1 zealot, 1 half done with chronoboost on gate, and 1 more starting.
Again overestimating you get 2 zealots + sentry @ 3:20.

+ Show Spoiler +

2gate zealots
No gas or core. I got out 6 zealots by 3:20. That seems like a lot especially if you bring probes too.
IronG
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6 Posts
March 14 2010 16:54 GMT
#159
hmm pretty much i wanted to try this out
i know it requires no skill what so ever
and micro as well
pretty much ive got 7 marines and all scvs except 2 in my base
and did attack ground and won
heres a replay

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&tab=upcoming&show=details&id=114609
amanet
Profile Joined December 2007
Croatia334 Posts
March 14 2010 17:01 GMT
#160
nice example
kasumimi
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Greece460 Posts
March 14 2010 17:11 GMT
#161
This a direct result/evolution from the chain nerfs protoss received (gateway build time - warpgate).

I'm really interested to see how the developers will look into this.
Taefox
Profile Joined March 2010
1533 Posts
March 14 2010 17:18 GMT
#162
Sorry but
Can anybody please post some replays bout this cheese rush ?
@taefoxy
IronG
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6 Posts
March 14 2010 17:34 GMT
#163
ive posted one on page 8
it really shows how you can win without really trying
kinda sad
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
March 14 2010 17:44 GMT
#164
On March 15 2010 00:32 -orb- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 19:23 kimchiterran wrote:
So far I easily defended all variations of this rush just with base 2 gate zealots opening (no forge). Late second gate still makes it suitable. I chrono boosted my gates and used part of the probes to fight of course. And I'm not even a Protoss user.

Raven


Post a replay and your rank/league or you will be ignored.

Clearly either 1: your opponents are trash or 2: you're not telling the truth

Lol, it's Raven - mYm.Raven. He's not some random

He's pretty high ranked platinum still.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
trickser
Profile Joined October 2006
Germany139 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 18:24:13
March 14 2010 18:22 GMT
#165
On March 15 2010 01:54 IronG wrote:
hmm pretty much i wanted to try this out
i know it requires no skill what so ever
and micro as well
pretty much ive got 7 marines and all scvs except 2 in my base
and did attack ground and won
heres a replay

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&tab=upcoming&show=details&id=114609



Ok is this an accurate execution of the build? If so the rush hits protss at 5:00 . I tested out a game where i went 2 gateway, and at the time the push occured i had 6 zealots + 2 halfway done and lots of probes + gas and a cybernetics core warping in.

Are people honestly telling me they cant defend a rush consisting of 7 rines and 12 scvs with 6 zealots and 14 probes? That would be really ridicoulous.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/yzwgmynjejn/2010-03-05 22-43-18.SC2Replay

Here the replay.
Heart Catch Pre-Cure. Saa Mina De! Heart Catch Pre-Cure Hanasaka Seyo!
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8097 Posts
March 14 2010 19:05 GMT
#166
my asshole friend did this to me like 6 times in a row last night. the last game i just proxy 2-gated vs him and won
Free Palestine
love1another
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1844 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 19:34:08
March 14 2010 19:32 GMT
#167
On March 14 2010 06:14 kimchiterran wrote:
This is why we need some low ground vs high ground penalty for range units, back in game. I'd say 50% of damage reduction will do fine (as I totally agree with Blizzard on not having "random" penalties in a competitive game, like we had in Broodwar).

Raven

As was discussed in some other big posts, 50% damage reduction is very hard to balance. 50% damage reduction doesn't necessarily mean kill in twice as many hits, which can easily lead to chaotic and unbalance-able damage interactions.
Edit: just realized I'm a zealot now!
"I'm learning more and more that TL isn't the place to go for advice outside of anything you need in college. It's like you guys just make up your own fantasy world shit and post it as if you've done it." - Chill
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 19:34:38
March 14 2010 19:32 GMT
#168
:/ Was this rush impossible to pull off in SC1 or something? Because cheese is cheese. I'm pretty sure that a Goon or two + Probes in SC1 can't hold off 6-8 Rines + SCVs.

I'm just putting this out there because people apparently love comparing SC2 to SC1, so why not find the equivalent in SC1, and show that it's also pretty hard to stop it in SC1 too (even harder considering goons don't outrange marines), so that'll hopefully stop this silly discussion over a build that, although it exists, will certainly never become the standard.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
March 14 2010 19:37 GMT
#169
On March 15 2010 04:32 Mystlord wrote:
:/ Was this rush impossible to pull off in SC1 or something? Because cheese is cheese. I'm pretty sure that a Goon or two + Probes in SC1 can't hold off 6-8 Rines + SCVs.

I'm just putting this out there because people apparently love comparing SC2 to SC1, so why not find the equivalent in SC1, and show that it's also pretty hard to stop it in SC1 too (even harder considering goons don't outrange marines), so that'll hopefully stop this silly discussion over a build that, although it exists, will certainly never become the standard.

Because stalkers are worthless, warpgates are nerfed, and SCV AI is ridiculous now.
love1another
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States1844 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 19:41:48
March 14 2010 19:38 GMT
#170
On March 15 2010 04:32 Mystlord wrote:
:/ Was this rush impossible to pull off in SC1 or something? Because cheese is cheese. I'm pretty sure that a Goon or two + Probes in SC1 can't hold off 6-8 Rines + SCVs.

I'm just putting this out there because people apparently love comparing SC2 to SC1, so why not find the equivalent in SC1, and show that it's also pretty hard to stop it in SC1 too (even harder considering goons don't outrange marines), so that'll hopefully stop this silly discussion over a build that, although it exists, will certainly never become the standard.

Tempest showed us that a well-placed shield battery gives a single dragoon much dignity It's very difficult to compare this rush to a rush of comparable power in BW (BBS) because BBS is all-in. This build isn't...

According to most people who've actually tried this, the only viable "survival" build against this T rush is forge-first, which allows T to cancel the push and FE for a game-winning advantage! Thus, the comparable BW timing would be a 10/10 rax or 10/11 rax that showed up against a say... 12-gate (timing-wise). Since the economic build for P with chrono-boost in SC2 is 14/14 I think this seems about right...

In BW, this is, of course, an auto-loss for P... 12/12 gate is far too late to defend against a 10/10 rax.
"I'm learning more and more that TL isn't the place to go for advice outside of anything you need in college. It's like you guys just make up your own fantasy world shit and post it as if you've done it." - Chill
kimchiterran
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland81 Posts
March 14 2010 19:55 GMT
#171
On March 15 2010 00:32 -orb- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2010 19:23 kimchiterran wrote:
So far I easily defended all variations of this rush just with base 2 gate zealots opening (no forge). Late second gate still makes it suitable. I chrono boosted my gates and used part of the probes to fight of course. And I'm not even a Protoss user.

Raven


Post a replay and your rank/league or you will be ignored.

Clearly either 1: your opponents are trash or 2: you're not telling the truth


Hey, I answered that one already, are you even reading the posts?

Raven
kimchi makes perfect~
KunfO
Profile Joined March 2010
United States81 Posts
March 14 2010 20:00 GMT
#172
Has anyone tried spamming fast boosted sentries and just spamming forcefield on your ramp + killing off the SCV's...?
ExileStrife
Profile Joined February 2009
United States170 Posts
March 14 2010 20:19 GMT
#173
I know the focus is on the all-in marine + SCVs, but I feel like there's another variant of the cheese rush that I've been losing to constantly. It is 4-to-6 marines, 2-or-so marauders, and no SCVs. The timing is pretty much the same, but this time they have dryad slow to make it so your zealots never get an attack in. I have even lost to it when they research stim and go in without dropship support -- it is impossible to run the zealots away and wait for the stim to wear off because the marauders can slow you down.
AdahnSC
Profile Joined March 2010
United States376 Posts
March 14 2010 20:20 GMT
#174
Has anyone tried keeping a probe at a xel naga tower or near the enemy base and then building a forge but canceling it if you dont see a rush coming? Then as a replacement for the forge and cannons you were going to build just build two more gateways.

also i think sentries go well with this build for forcefield blocking (since your forge is late and cannons might not finish in time), killing the scouting scv with range, and because they cost very little minerals while cannons are high in minerals.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 20:48:24
March 14 2010 20:35 GMT
#175
On March 14 2010 23:57 IdrA wrote:
ive played like 7 games on asia and i avoid watching artosis replays on principle, i dont really have any idea how they play. id imagine foreigners would be more creative, but the top koreans are largely war3 players, and amongst americans the war3 players seem to be quick to pick up abusive cheesy stuff (out of necessity since they suck ass beyond it).

hah.. that's not true at all. it's just a blanket assumption people make with no real experience to back it up. you clearly have no idea how much micro a good warcraft 3 player needs. The reason sc1 players aren't dominating isn't because of higher skill. (that's absurd and makes no sense). In my opinion, it's because of two reasons. Firstly, they're playing the game as if it's starcraft 1, and that just doesn't work. Secondly; and I think this is actually the bigger reason; their micro is nowhere near the level of the average warcraft 3 player. Now I'm not talking about the pro level. On the pro level, I completely agree the sc pros will dominate over the wc3 pros.. that seems obvious. I am talking about the amateur level... and by amateur, I mean most high ranked platinum players. That's amateur. Most amateur warcraft 3 players are far more skilled in micro than the amateur sc1 player. The micro you see in starcraft 2 is VERY similar to the micro of warcraft 3; and really not similar to the micro of starcraft 1. Having played both games for years, I can tell you this. The starcraft 1 players have an advantage in APM, macro, and have a more intuitive grasp of gameflow, but their micro instincts are, on average, severely lacking compared to the warcraft 3 players.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
fantomex
Profile Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
March 14 2010 20:51 GMT
#176
After having tried it... it does seem a little OP. Would still like to see some replays again good Protoss players that see it coming.
Replay or GTFO
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 21:17:37
March 14 2010 21:07 GMT
#177
On March 15 2010 05:19 ExileStrife wrote:
I know the focus is on the all-in marine + SCVs, but I feel like there's another variant of the cheese rush that I've been losing to constantly. It is 4-to-6 marines, 2-or-so marauders, and no SCVs. The timing is pretty much the same, but this time they have dryad slow to make it so your zealots never get an attack in. I have even lost to it when they research stim and go in without dropship support -- it is impossible to run the zealots away and wait for the stim to wear off because the marauders can slow you down.

I am fairly certain this is the reason david kim opens stalkers. In order to help kill marauders. He seems to get 3 of them, and go straight to his opponents base and tries to pick off marines / marauders. You can get a kill this way, 2 if you're lucky; you will put some damage on his troops at least, take a bit of damage, and run. If you escape without losing a stalker your shields begin to recharge and you'll be at a slight advantage; moreso considering in the coming fight those stalkers won't be taking damage, it will be the zealots. it's at this point he switches to zealots. Pretty sure he chrono boosts his gateways as much as possible during these early stages. So he'll have 3 stalkers, some number of zealots depending on the timing of the opponents rush, and at some point an added sentry. This should be able to deal with the push. Clearly the enemy will be targeting the zealots first. A few stalkers will help with the run and fire tactic the MM will do on you. On that note you should pick off the marauders first, since stalkers do better damage to them. Against the really early rush you will pull probes as well. As time goes on I believe David Kim adds 2 or so more sentries and keeps pumping zealots, and will use force field to prevent the enemy from running. At that point the fight is mostly a matter of micro and positioning.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 21:27:58
March 14 2010 21:25 GMT
#178
I here stand in aw of your theory crafting and the fact that you can't seems to understand how much things changed since the infamous David Kim game that you keep mentioning about.
kasumimi
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Greece460 Posts
March 14 2010 21:28 GMT
#179
Today I played 3 ladder games. All terran.
Two first games I scouted too late and lost with this cheese. Third game I put down a forge cause it was a 4 player map and I was paranoid and didn't want to risk again. Turns out the last guy played normally and beat me in the face with M&M cause I was so far behind in tech cause of the forge and cannon.

Thank god this is beta.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 21:46:16
March 14 2010 21:41 GMT
#180
On March 15 2010 06:25 Yamoth wrote:
I here stand in aw of your theory crafting and the fact that you can't seems to understand how much things changed since the infamous David Kim game that you keep mentioning about.

How do you recommend dealing with the marauder / marine push? The game I'm referencing was after the gateway nerf but before the warp in nerf.
Anyway, I don't have the game so all I can do is theory craft. So you can expect me to keep theory crafting. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm arrogant in my beliefs.. I am willing to listen to alternatives
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
CieZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States50 Posts
March 14 2010 21:47 GMT
#181
@cartoon

No offense dude, but if you haven't played the game, don't use five patch old replays to try and theory craft.... I don't think you realize that since the nerfs to protoss, the marine + SCV rush comes too early if it is done properly, you can't get 3 stalkers out, get to his base and harass him before his push moves out... In the replays you've seen of David Kim the T barracks built SLOWER than a toss gateway, the build times have been pretty much reversed now.

Maybe I am just bitter because of having to deal with Colossus/Immorals/DTs/storms for so long as a terran player (with horrible mech to choose from) but it is kind of nice to actually see a strat that gives T an advantage in this match-up... T vs P was pretty retarded from the T perspective. Against good toss it went something like this:

"Observer sees T army, Toss player pre-casts feedback on Ghosts and then A-moves his army in. T player loses. YAY!!!"
rrowland
Profile Joined March 2010
United States84 Posts
March 14 2010 21:51 GMT
#182
How exactly do you scout this?

Oh! He's walling... and... making SCVs... He must be cheese rushing!
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 22:02:53
March 14 2010 21:55 GMT
#183
On March 15 2010 06:47 CieZ wrote:
@cartoon

No offense dude, but if you haven't played the game, don't use five patch old replays to try and theory craft.... I don't think you realize that since the nerfs to protoss, the marine + SCV rush comes too early if it is done properly, you can't get 3 stalkers out, get to his base and harass him before his push moves out... In the replays you've seen of David Kim the T barracks built SLOWER than a toss gateway, the build times have been pretty much reversed now.

Maybe I am just bitter because of having to deal with Colossus/Immorals/DTs/storms for so long as a terran player (with horrible mech to choose from) but it is kind of nice to actually see a strat that gives T an advantage in this match-up... T vs P was pretty retarded from the T perspective. Against good toss it went something like this:

"Observer sees T army, Toss player pre-casts feedback on Ghosts and then A-moves his army in. T player loses. YAY!!!"

Well, part of why I go on theory crafting is so that I can learn where I am right and where I am wrong from players who do have the game, since I cannot play the game. Although I do have a cracked version of the game which I play offline to practice build orders. So I am more than glad to have someone correct me. At the same time, when a player who has the game puts forward an explanation which isn't comprehensive, and concludes "the game is broken, imba!", I like to test how much they really know, vs. how much they're just whining. And there is so much whining imba on this forum, and so little constructive problem solving, it is difficult to tell who knows their stuff vs. who is a crybaby. Anyway, my 3 stalker harass is not talking about the scv / marine rush, it's talking about a marauder marine rush. For the scv / marine rush, I am not certain what to do.. , although there are some things I would try, but they don't involve a 3 stalker harass. I am fairly certain you can have 3 stalkers harassing him by the time he has 2 marauders and is ready to move out.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 14 2010 21:58 GMT
#184
It's amazing how much nonsense has been said in this thread. I'm going to do some legit testing vs this since I'm back at school and have my desktop computer to work with. I stand by that it's a terrible allin and easily spotted and defended against without forge.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
March 14 2010 22:02 GMT
#185
Anyone who tests this should post replays
starleague.mit.edu
CieZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States50 Posts
March 14 2010 22:09 GMT
#186
Yeah, there are always going to be a lot of people crying imba in pretty much any community for any game. I just don't think you can cry imba unless something is very obviously broken for a very long period of time, or just so ridiculously broken that the entire game is ruined. It took T players a while to think up the idea to rush with SCVs + Marines, the build was specifically designed to counter what is considered protoss "standard" play, so I think it is silly when protoss cry about not being able to use their "standard" play to beat a strat that was 100% designed to beat it... Its like paper saying nerf scissors, rock is fine.

Even if toss goes forge first, which seems to be the accepted counter to the T SCV/rine rush, I don't see why it is such a hopeless game for the toss. Toss mid/late game is so hilariously overpowered vs T it is stupid. They can roll you with Colossus/Immortals/Lots/Stalker, in which case you need vikings + perfect micro on spreading your bio out + EMPs, or they can go for HTs and unless you hit pretty much every HT with EMP, you're screwed. The way it stands right now, mech is such an iffy choice for T to go because it is just... well... weak.

Like I said earlier, I might just be bitter about losing to protoss who just A-Move their armies when I'm having to do fifteen thousand things to counter one A-moved colossus with a random mix of other units in front of it. (LOL 9 RANGE COLOSSUS NOT OP?)

Sorry about getting confused on which strat you were talking about using against which build. From trying an early marine/maru push against some protoss I've lost to 4 warp-gate mass stalkers (after patch) simply because the toss could replenish his units quicker than I could mine, and hitting + running with stalkers is effective against marines once you've picked off the Maraus, maybe even send in like 2-3 probes to mess with the marine AI.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-14 22:21:31
March 14 2010 22:15 GMT
#187
Yeah I was just starting to think more about that. What's so bad about a fast expand when he's not even gotten his gas yet? Upon sighting no gas you can throw down a forge, build 2 cannons, allow him to expand, and tech to zealots / DTs / warp prism? Or like you say, fast tech to standard and then push out and expand.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
AmstAff
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany949 Posts
March 14 2010 22:24 GMT
#188
http://www.mediafire.com/?zdk3wjutiny
http://www.mediafire.com/?y2mmtktr0kl

2 different replays. i think if you dont scout them on first spot it could be very, very hard to defend, maybe impossible if both are of equal skill level.
in one replay he did a 2 rax build and attacked with 8 marines + scvs. the other one was some different all in. that guy made a rax in his mainbase and proxyed 2 more near my natural. dunno if this helps, but since this thread it seems like a trend to scv rush and it seems to work. at least in my division because all t made much points^^
platinum 1750 points here, so im not that good adn maybe it wont help.
after 2 years i reached it = marine icon
Paladia
Profile Joined August 2003
802 Posts
March 14 2010 22:29 GMT
#189
On March 15 2010 07:09 CieZ wrote:
Yeah, there are always going to be a lot of people crying imba in pretty much any community for any game. I just don't think you can cry imba unless something is very obviously broken for a very long period of time, or just so ridiculously broken that the entire game is ruined.
[..]
Protoss who just A-Move their armies when I'm having to do fifteen thousand things to counter one A-moved colossus with a random mix of other units in front of it. (LOL 9 RANGE COLOSSUS NOT OP?)
I wonder who is really crying.
I can no longer rest under the tree of wisdom, since you have axed down the roots feeding it.
CieZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States50 Posts
March 14 2010 22:29 GMT
#190
Yeah, if the build isn't scouted it SHOULD beat a "standard" protoss opening because that is SPECIFICALLY what it was designed to do, which is why I don't think people can cry imba. Now if that build lets the T get +3 bases up on the toss, then yeah it is obviously a hopeless game and if the build is THAT strong something should be changed.

I have not tried this myself yet, and have not watched replays of what happens when the toss goes forge + cannons to stop the rush, but is the toss really THAT far behind that it is hopeless? As was mentioned before, the T player still has yet to even start collecting gas, and if the toss keeps scouting up, or realizes that the strategic thing for the T to do is to back off and expo, then the toss can throw up a counter-expo, thus transitioning into a 2-base vs 2-base game like a lot of TvPs go into. I mean toss already has 2 extremely powerful answers to T bio, and immortals which just romp all over mech, is it REALLY necessary that they have map control the whole game and get to expo first? Finally T comes up with a strat that gives them more of a fighting chance in the match-up and toss cries imba cuz they're too used to one build-order that counters everything T can possibly do with an A-moved army? (Colossus + Immoral from robo is fun for T to deal with...)
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-15 03:12:49
March 15 2010 01:56 GMT
#191
Yeah, I have to agree.
Edit: I watched the two replays of this.
On the game on scrapyards the protoss player stops the rush easily despite having made a few mistakes. For one thing, he didn't even fully use his chrono boost to fast build zealots after having scouted the rush. For another thing, he did not have perfect zealot micro. Despite this he still won the game with a standard opening build, without even having to pull probes.
In the second game the protoss player went fast robotics facility on a very large map, and his opponent built two proxy barracks. His opponent was busy pumping marines while he had 1 stalker and 1 zealot, and pretty much skipped over building early units. He once again was hoarding nexus power, not using his chrono boost, and when he did start boosting it was used on the cybernetics core for warp gates, and not on zealots. The proxy barracks could of easily been scouted using the towers in the middle of the map. Infact, there is no good place to build a proxy barracks on this map which cannot be scouted by towers. If you sensed this might be coming, you could simply move to the tower outside your base with a scouting probe, and you'd see the barracks as it was being built. The rush was relatively successful, the protoss player lost a ton of probes, but still managed to survive. I didn't watch the game drag on, but it dragged on for a while. That the protoss even lasted this long despite the build order he used is really impressive to me.
Conclusion: this rush is very stoppable. To be honest, it's far weaker than I had expected considering how much people are crying. A protoss who scouts this and continues to pump zealots from two gateways while chrono boosting them, and then micros properly during the battle should have no problem winning. This is probably more dangerous on a close spawn map, like next door on LT or something. As T that is the only time I would even consider using it. With good micro and fully chrono boosted gateways from the P, I'm not sure who would have the edge. On such small maps, waiting to go gas and instead going 3 gateway may work better. I would need to see a replay on a map like this to know how it plays out
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 15 2010 02:25 GMT
#192
I found one of the best defenses against this rush (from the protoss perspective) is a counter by in base proxying on the terran.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
CieZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States50 Posts
March 15 2010 02:59 GMT
#193
Well how long did the T wait to attack in each replay? If he didn't go in until the toss had a robo up and warp gate researching it seems like the T waited way too long. From what I understood the best the toss could do based on the timing of each attack was 6 zealots vs 12 SCVs + 6 marines, in which case if the T player micros, he will win. If that is the case though it just sounds like if the toss pulled his probes he would win easily... There would just be too much stuff to block with SCVs, and the marines couldn't kill everything quickly enough.

I do agree that there seems to be way too much whining about the strat though, I guess some toss just got too comfortable being able to tech to collos with like 1 zealot against T and faceroll their way through games. As long as it is scouted it is a REALLY freaking obvious strat. No gas? HMMMM wonder what he could be doing? 1 base BC tech obviously.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-15 03:26:52
March 15 2010 03:11 GMT
#194
it was about 6 zealots vs 12 scvs and 6 marines. basically the player attack / moved / attacked / moved his zealots, taking down the life of the SCVs while forcing the marines to retreat. The SCVs died and I think over half of the marines died. All the zealots died. At this point the game was relatively even and the player switched to stalkers. The terran I guess didn't have perfect micro, but neither did the protoss. The other replay doesnt really count because he basically went straight to robotics facility. But when the attack was starting, the robotics facility had just started building and he only had like 2 maybe 3 units. Keep in mind the protoss player in the first game didnt even pull probes. If you had to you could run the probes behind the marines and prevent them from retreating, then slaughter them with zealots. If you quickly clone your zealots to attack different marines, then use your probes, I can't see any good way the T will win.. not only that, you can use that mechanic of reducing threat on your probes. What is that, like spam stop or move or something? Use that while you block the marine pathing as they try to retreat and you probably will barely lose any probes on top of it all.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
March 15 2010 03:17 GMT
#195
Ever since this post i've been incorporating this into my TvP. I do my standard Marines with 2 ghosts EMP timing push, but bring about 3/4 of my mineral SCVs with me (I don't touch the gas ones). While my army is heading towards their base I pump SCV, and only get as many ghosts/marines as I can without interrupting SCV production. I keep 50 energy for a single scan because it can help during my first push and make sure I drop mules every time I can. My win rate with the first push is much higher than the chance of me loosing my initial army. And even if I do, by the time I look at my base I usually have 2 ghosts and a handful of marines already back and my mineral line at a fairly decent saturation. It is not all in at all. If it fails the game becomes much longer, but counter attacks are usually do little damage because I have 2-3 emp ready by the time they ge to my base. Altho my winrate was fine with my push as it was the SCVs taking hits because they are higher on the priority list than my marines gives my army much much more survivability.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
Antimage
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1293 Posts
March 15 2010 04:03 GMT
#196
I've read the first ~10 posts, and the last ~15 posts in here, and I have to say that I really don't think it's imbalanced.

I played against it once (as toss), and was caught off-guard and lost because I had never seen it before.

I think the proper response to this is to start putting up a forge along with your 1-gate core, while delaying your second gas by a few seconds, if you can't keep a probe inside their base and only have one below their ramp.

If you see them moving out with an obscene amount of scv's and marines, then put a cannon or two down. The timing should work out well so that you will have your cannons up before they arrive. Granted, I haven't tried this personally but I do find that I have a gas shortage and mineral excess if I'm teching straight robo.

If the push doesn't come, then you've only invested 150 minerals that you were going to put in later anyway. Since there is already a huge advantage to protoss with robo tech vs terran infantry, I don't see this as a huge disadvantage. If the push comes and you fend it off, you can either tech colossus and finish him off or expand to your nat to play safer.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 15 2010 04:27 GMT
#197
Alright, I just played a lot of games vs a friend (who was playing on a mutual friend's account who is in copper, the guy I'm playing with is better than that). I don't know if there may be some variation which just straight up rapes what I do, but I manage to counter it without a forge with enough of an advantage at the end that I've clearly won.

The trick is, if you spot 2 rax no gas, get a sentry first. Chrono boost that gate and get another sentry out just after. You'll need the force fields to block your ramp and buy some time. Basically you just wanna stall for as long as possible so they lose their advantage. Once they finally break through you need to pull all your probes and just go for it. It's not pretty, but it wins without any major adjustment before the cyber core is up.

Another note is that I tested 9 pylon 12 gate and it did horribly compared to my opening of 10 pylon 11 gate. I think I might end up with like, 1 probe less or something but being safe vs cheese is worth it.

The last game we played is here: http://www.mediafire.com/?oje3ymoyznr

Basically, the reason this works is because it takes a very specific and well thought through response which nobody knows yet. I think perhaps the maps play a large part in it as well. I didn't even have to play well to stop this cross spots on LT. Steppes is just about as retarded as you can get with rush distance, so that's why my final tests were performed there.

Last note: I know people will say "what about maps like scrap station that have a huge ramp that forcefields can't block?" The fact is, the rush distance on that map is so ridiculous that you will have a lot more out when he hits you, and it's just not that hard to deal with.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Jyxz
Profile Joined November 2009
United States117 Posts
March 15 2010 04:29 GMT
#198
i 100% agree, that stalkers should be the meat in almost every match up, they play the role of the main fighting unit perfectly, yet to be honest 95% of times they are built its a mistake because they are truly weak beyond belief.
This is Jimmy
positronix
Profile Joined March 2010
United States39 Posts
March 15 2010 04:31 GMT
#199
how fast can protoss get a sentry? 1 force shield should counter this perfectly.
Game design should be art, not a cash cow
fantomex
Profile Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
March 15 2010 04:47 GMT
#200
Most of the replays in this thread haven't really captured whats being talked about.
Replay or GTFO
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
March 15 2010 05:00 GMT
#201
On March 15 2010 13:31 positronix wrote:
how fast can protoss get a sentry? 1 force shield should counter this perfectly.


not fast enough on smaller maps. sentry needs build reduction by about 1/4 (1/8th?) anyways, imo.
starleague forever
fantomex
Profile Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-15 05:03:10
March 15 2010 05:02 GMT
#202
http://www.warp-whistle.com/replays/Early Marine and SCV Rush 2010-03-14 21-59-44.SC2Replay
Replay or GTFO
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
March 15 2010 05:19 GMT
#203
On March 15 2010 14:02 fantomex wrote:
http://www.warp-whistle.com/replays/Early Marine and SCV Rush 2010-03-14 21-59-44.SC2Replay

The protoss in that game was quite bad

Anyone interested in working on this with me? Lorelei.teamliquid on SC2 (US), or PM me here.
Louder
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States2276 Posts
March 15 2010 05:32 GMT
#204
Zealots should never have had their shields nerfed, and Stalkers have always been weak useless pieces of shit vs just about anything.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 15 2010 06:57 GMT
#205
On March 15 2010 14:00 a176 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2010 13:31 positronix wrote:
how fast can protoss get a sentry? 1 force shield should counter this perfectly.


not fast enough on smaller maps. sentry needs build reduction by about 1/4 (1/8th?) anyways, imo.


Watch my replay. I do it in time.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
March 15 2010 09:21 GMT
#206
Make stalkers do extra damage vs light and change workers to low priority targets again. Sure this will make the scvs slightly stronger in the attack but it will make probes actually USEFUL in battles. Basically you could make the stalker tank marine fire while probes are going to work on them and the stalker(s) helping to kill the marines. Once marines are gone you can take care of scvs.
goszar
Profile Joined February 2010
Belarus119 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-15 13:57:47
March 15 2010 13:56 GMT
#207
My friend gave me the korean replay pack with this strat. I tried, and it seems almost unstoppable for Gold league. I think that correct execution is to attack with 10 marines and about 16 SCVs while rallying more marines. I will play this on all maps against all races to see how far into Platinum i can get. Yesterday I went about 10-2 with this only losing to Zergs on Scrap Station and Desert Oasis, both times they noticed the allin and built Spine Crawlers.
I loved one of the replays from that korean pack where Protoss had 6 zealots with two more warping and pulled probes, but still lost.
As for Desert Oasis, I will try to do the double-cheese: fly to yellow minerals and start from there, then go all-in. This should be even better because you save the traveling time from the starting position to the middle of the map.
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
March 15 2010 17:23 GMT
#208
fly time cost you time and any decent player with an once worth of skill will notice and empty base and went looking for you.
Whiplash
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States2928 Posts
March 15 2010 18:27 GMT
#209
On March 16 2010 02:23 Yamoth wrote:
fly time cost you time and any decent player with an once worth of skill will notice and empty base and went looking for you.


uh... what?



I faced this build before, it's pretty dam powerful. Since in sc2 scvs are a lot easier to keep alive (they move inside big buildings they are creating) They should seriously nerf their health down to 50 hp or something and have marine health down to 40 with 15 for the upgrade. Terran early game pushes in pvt are very powerful atm.

I agree with louder in the zealot hp nerf should have never happened and stalkers are useless pieces of crap.
Cinematographer / Steadicam Operator. Former Starcraft commentator/player
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-15 19:24:03
March 15 2010 19:19 GMT
#210
On March 15 2010 22:56 goszar wrote:
My friend gave me the korean replay pack with this strat. I tried, and it seems almost unstoppable for Gold league. I think that correct execution is to attack with 10 marines and about 16 SCVs while rallying more marines. I will play this on all maps against all races to see how far into Platinum i can get. Yesterday I went about 10-2 with this only losing to Zergs on Scrap Station and Desert Oasis, both times they noticed the allin and built Spine Crawlers.
I loved one of the replays from that korean pack where Protoss had 6 zealots with two more warping and pulled probes, but still lost.
As for Desert Oasis, I will try to do the double-cheese: fly to yellow minerals and start from there, then go all-in. This should be even better because you save the traveling time from the starting position to the middle of the map.

Desert Oasis is a piece of crap. I played NadagastAxslav yesterday and he did that AND bunkered below my minerals lol, which prevented me from mining from some of them until I cleaned it up. It was actually a pretty cool game because I ended up winning, but I remember saying to myself outloud "this map is bullshit".

He didn't send all his SCVs though, and I think the cheese is weaker if you do the lift off. Better to transition into a slightly later but bigger push off it if you 'waste' time lifting like that, as the extra mineral rate won't help much without you spending some time there first.

e: I think it was Axslav, not Nadagast, sorry
sCuMBaG
Profile Joined August 2006
United Kingdom1144 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-15 19:45:46
March 15 2010 19:45 GMT
#211
On March 16 2010 02:23 Yamoth wrote:
fly time cost you time and any decent player with an once worth of skill will notice and empty base and went looking for you.


by then he has a nearly finished or long finished rax (depending on which gold expo toss scouts first)...

when he gets scouted he just has to immidiately attack with his 1-4 rines + all scvs but 2 or 3.
i think it might even work..
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
March 15 2010 19:56 GMT
#212
On March 15 2010 04:32 Mystlord wrote:
:/ Was this rush impossible to pull off in SC1 or something? Because cheese is cheese. I'm pretty sure that a Goon or two + Probes in SC1 can't hold off 6-8 Rines + SCVs.

I'm just putting this out there because people apparently love comparing SC2 to SC1, so why not find the equivalent in SC1, and show that it's also pretty hard to stop it in SC1 too (even harder considering goons don't outrange marines), so that'll hopefully stop this silly discussion over a build that, although it exists, will certainly never become the standard.


it's not just that Terran can kill a fast core toss but the op is saying that Koreans are asserting all builds except forge first die. This must include 2gate zeal as that should be the first thin they turn to vs allin. So the equivalent in sc1 is 2rax allin rapes even 10/12 gate zeal.

Sry for any typos stupid phone keyboard blows
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
March 15 2010 20:06 GMT
#213
On March 15 2010 14:32 Louder wrote:
Zealots should never have had their shields nerfed, and Stalkers have always been weak useless pieces of shit vs just about anything.


words of truth
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Mauzel
Profile Joined December 2009
United States421 Posts
March 15 2010 20:10 GMT
#214
Maybe you could stop terran from scouting by placing probes at ramp and just accept the mineral loss?

This way they won't know if you went forge first or not, so the expo is no longer safe, and the all-in might die to forge-first.

That said, they could probably just play standard and screw you over due to your economic disadvantage of pulling probes to stop scout.

They might also counter your build order choice by chance.

Maybe this will bel ike
Gedrah
Profile Joined February 2010
465 Posts
March 15 2010 20:12 GMT
#215
On March 16 2010 05:10 Mauzel wrote:
Maybe you could stop terran from scouting by placing probes at ramp and just accept the mineral loss?

This way they won't know if you went forge first or not, so the expo is no longer safe, and the all-in might die to forge-first.

That said, they could probably just play standard and screw you over due to your economic disadvantage of pulling probes to stop scout.

They might also counter your build order choice by chance.

Maybe this will bel ike


All he has to do is right click on the minerals and the SCV will go right past the Probes.
What is a dickfour?
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
March 15 2010 20:33 GMT
#216
On March 16 2010 05:12 Gedrah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2010 05:10 Mauzel wrote:
Maybe you could stop terran from scouting by placing probes at ramp and just accept the mineral loss?

This way they won't know if you went forge first or not, so the expo is no longer safe, and the all-in might die to forge-first.

That said, they could probably just play standard and screw you over due to your economic disadvantage of pulling probes to stop scout.

They might also counter your build order choice by chance.

Maybe this will bel ike


All he has to do is right click on the minerals and the SCV will go right past the Probes.


Workers actually slide through other workers if you tell them to mine, I'm surprised not more know about this.
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
LagT_T
Profile Joined March 2010
Argentina535 Posts
March 15 2010 21:29 GMT
#217
Is Bisu build (fast exp with cannons) a possibility against this strat?
"The tactics... no. Amateurs discuss tactics, professional soldiers study logistics." - Tom Clancy, Red Storm Rising
trickser
Profile Joined October 2006
Germany139 Posts
March 15 2010 21:37 GMT
#218
On March 16 2010 05:33 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2010 05:12 Gedrah wrote:
On March 16 2010 05:10 Mauzel wrote:
Maybe you could stop terran from scouting by placing probes at ramp and just accept the mineral loss?

This way they won't know if you went forge first or not, so the expo is no longer safe, and the all-in might die to forge-first.

That said, they could probably just play standard and screw you over due to your economic disadvantage of pulling probes to stop scout.

They might also counter your build order choice by chance.

Maybe this will bel ike


All he has to do is right click on the minerals and the SCV will go right past the Probes.


Workers actually slide through other workers if you tell them to mine, I'm surprised not more know about this.


Not if you dont have vision of the minerals.
Heart Catch Pre-Cure. Saa Mina De! Heart Catch Pre-Cure Hanasaka Seyo!
b0lt
Profile Joined March 2009
United States790 Posts
March 15 2010 21:42 GMT
#219
On March 16 2010 06:37 trickser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2010 05:33 Zoler wrote:
On March 16 2010 05:12 Gedrah wrote:
On March 16 2010 05:10 Mauzel wrote:
Maybe you could stop terran from scouting by placing probes at ramp and just accept the mineral loss?

This way they won't know if you went forge first or not, so the expo is no longer safe, and the all-in might die to forge-first.

That said, they could probably just play standard and screw you over due to your economic disadvantage of pulling probes to stop scout.

They might also counter your build order choice by chance.

Maybe this will bel ike


All he has to do is right click on the minerals and the SCV will go right past the Probes.


Workers actually slide through other workers if you tell them to mine, I'm surprised not more know about this.


Not if you dont have vision of the minerals.


Nope, it does it even if you mine minerals in fog in SC2.
ramen247
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States1256 Posts
March 15 2010 21:44 GMT
#220
this strategy is very OP and anyone who says otherwise is stupid.
i hate this ugly firebat. i want a marine.
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-15 22:08:11
March 15 2010 22:07 GMT
#221
On March 16 2010 06:29 LagT_T wrote:
Is Bisu build (fast exp with cannons) a possibility against this strat?

Oh god, don't start the flamewar with calling forge FE a "Bisu build"

Cannons are not a good option, because just like it was already mentioned - T can just expand faster when he sees you wasting money on forge and cannons.
Plus fast expo is very, veeery prone to banshee/reaper harass. Oh my god, cannons vs reapers is not something you want to do at all

Plus - forge FE was supposed to be PvZ strat in SC1, not PvT
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-15 22:09:05
March 15 2010 22:08 GMT
#222
I proved it's beatable with 1 gate core if scouted. It's strong, but it's not OP. Perhaps a little decrease on core build time would help, since now your core tech is much later due to later gateways. That being said, it's a cheese and it can be beaten.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
March 15 2010 22:16 GMT
#223
On March 16 2010 06:42 b0lt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2010 06:37 trickser wrote:
On March 16 2010 05:33 Zoler wrote:
On March 16 2010 05:12 Gedrah wrote:
On March 16 2010 05:10 Mauzel wrote:
Maybe you could stop terran from scouting by placing probes at ramp and just accept the mineral loss?

This way they won't know if you went forge first or not, so the expo is no longer safe, and the all-in might die to forge-first.

That said, they could probably just play standard and screw you over due to your economic disadvantage of pulling probes to stop scout.

They might also counter your build order choice by chance.

Maybe this will bel ike


All he has to do is right click on the minerals and the SCV will go right past the Probes.


Workers actually slide through other workers if you tell them to mine, I'm surprised not more know about this.


Not if you dont have vision of the minerals.


Nope, it does it even if you mine minerals in fog in SC2.


Really? Are you sure about this?
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
TheYellowDart
Profile Joined March 2010
United States13 Posts
March 15 2010 22:28 GMT
#224
I wanted to try the cheese myself.
Phok - silver - division 11
Rank 13th

http://www.mediafire.com/?2i2ymkvky5m

I think the replay sort of justifies the situation here... Desert oasis is a pretty big map and I was still able to pull it off. The rush was even scouted, and my build order was lack luster. I was on my laptop(I HATE playing on my laptop) at the time, so I knew the only way i'd be able to win was to cheese or do something unexpected because my apm play is so slow on a laptop. What's nice about a cheese like this on desert oasis is the resources on the island corners of the map. If you decide to do a cheese like this and fail, the fall-back strategy would be to just lift and re-tech on an island. I really think this cheese is VERY map dependent. But I did think of a really good counter to this cheese. You could wall off the terran's choke point somehow and stop the terran scvs from streaming to your base. Feedback would be great :D
I can smell what the rock is cooking.
LagT_T
Profile Joined March 2010
Argentina535 Posts
March 15 2010 22:30 GMT
#225
On March 16 2010 07:07 Kaniol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2010 06:29 LagT_T wrote:
Is Bisu build (fast exp with cannons) a possibility against this strat?

Oh god, don't start the flamewar with calling forge FE a "Bisu build"

Cannons are not a good option, because just like it was already mentioned - T can just expand faster when he sees you wasting money on forge and cannons.
Plus fast expo is very, veeery prone to banshee/reaper harass. Oh my god, cannons vs reapers is not something you want to do at all

Plus - forge FE was supposed to be PvZ strat in SC1, not PvT


Sorry about the Bisu build thing, I didn't know about the ignitability of the subject.
Regarding the plus, I don't care about the matchup, only if it works or not. How soon does the terran scout? Because to pull this off he has to skip gas, so reapers/banshees will be delayed.
"The tactics... no. Amateurs discuss tactics, professional soldiers study logistics." - Tom Clancy, Red Storm Rising
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 15 2010 22:57 GMT
#226
On March 16 2010 07:28 TheYellowDart wrote:
I wanted to try the cheese myself.
Phok - silver - division 11
Rank 13th

http://www.mediafire.com/?2i2ymkvky5m

I think the replay sort of justifies the situation here... Desert oasis is a pretty big map and I was still able to pull it off. The rush was even scouted, and my build order was lack luster. I was on my laptop(I HATE playing on my laptop) at the time, so I knew the only way i'd be able to win was to cheese or do something unexpected because my apm play is so slow on a laptop. What's nice about a cheese like this on desert oasis is the resources on the island corners of the map. If you decide to do a cheese like this and fail, the fall-back strategy would be to just lift and re-tech on an island. I really think this cheese is VERY map dependent. But I did think of a really good counter to this cheese. You could wall off the terran's choke point somehow and stop the terran scvs from streaming to your base. Feedback would be great :D


It should never work on oasis the rush distance is huge and you can block the ramp with a forcefield. You're silver league, which no offense, is full of terrible terrible people. It doesn't show anything.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
CieZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States50 Posts
March 15 2010 23:18 GMT
#227
Yeah, I think we've come to the conclusion that all the toss has to do to defend against this strat (unless all of our timings are completely off) is scout it, make two gateways, and pull probes.

The probes can move in behind the marines, blocking any sort of "kiting" they could do, the zealots tear through the SCVs, toss wins the fight and is way ahead. Definitely not an imba strat I don't think.
aLt)nirvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Singapore846 Posts
March 15 2010 23:24 GMT
#228
lmao i didnt understand it when "Giveyouhell"s opening was FORGE first and 3 cannons on steeps of war vs terran. i was thinking wtf noob how could this guy finish in top 8 of the korean XP 256 pple tournament!!!? Not to mention he had a sentry by then and 4 zealots as well. Then the terran rushed and managed to KILL all 3 cannons with his marines maruders and scvs from 3 rax.

i extracted it from the rep pack gtr posted so dl here if u just want to see that game
http://www.starcraft2replaysdb.com/others/giveyouhell hyberdubpvt.SC2Replay

sc2sea.com - The SEA / ANZ community
Zeridian
Profile Joined April 2009
United States198 Posts
March 15 2010 23:37 GMT
#229
it's funny that people posted on this thread, when some people were posting saying probe defense, people just ignored them
goszar
Profile Joined February 2010
Belarus119 Posts
March 15 2010 23:40 GMT
#230
Floophead_III
I agree that this strategy is beatable, especially on larger maps. But you should be very prepared for it.
I think that it is still very unhealthy for the medium skill level (think Gold League). Actually I believe that on this level two-gate zealots with chronoboost can't defend it - see one of the korean replays when SCV+marines beat around 10 zealots total and pulled probes: http://www.mediafire.com/file/i4tqhcnw5dn/korean.zip (the pack is even for old patch with fast warpgate).
If you are interested on how Gold players are beaten, see my replay pack: http://www.mediafire.com/file/25gkjyf2dmm/Recent.zip (I performed this incorrectly first few games and lost twice to Zergs on large maps).
My suggestion is to nerf SCV HP to 50.
CagedMind
Profile Joined February 2010
United States506 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 02:15:37
March 16 2010 02:14 GMT
#231
It's not just scv health that's doing this. Besides it's part of the game having a strong worker unit.

Is there a replay of anyone managing to defend this with 2gate vs a good marine scv rush?
your micro has been depleted
CagedMind
Profile Joined February 2010
United States506 Posts
March 16 2010 02:37 GMT
#232
On March 16 2010 07:08 Floophead_III wrote:
I proved it's beatable with 1 gate core if scouted. It's strong, but it's not OP. Perhaps a little decrease on core build time would help, since now your core tech is much later due to later gateways. That being said, it's a cheese and it can be beaten.

The terran in replay left 4 marines at expo. I'm not convinced in the least bit.
your micro has been depleted
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 16 2010 02:42 GMT
#233
On March 16 2010 11:37 CagedMind wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2010 07:08 Floophead_III wrote:
I proved it's beatable with 1 gate core if scouted. It's strong, but it's not OP. Perhaps a little decrease on core build time would help, since now your core tech is much later due to later gateways. That being said, it's a cheese and it can be beaten.

The terran in replay left 4 marines at expo. I'm not convinced in the least bit.


Oh did he? I hadn't watched the replay itself, I just assumed he didn't make any mistakes that go around. He's a pretty average player so that doesn't surprise me. I'll be glad to play some more with a better opponent so we have more definitive proof.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 04:40:21
March 16 2010 04:39 GMT
#234
I tried for like an hour today against Mystlord. It seems stoppable to me. I lost a few times until I figured out to save energy for chronoboosts and how to micro zealot/probe well against scv/marine, but after that I was consistently stopping his attacks when he built in his main (even wtih 1 gate before core). I lost a few more times when he started proxying near my base until I went pylon gate assimilator and if I saw he was proxying add a 2nd gate prior to getting the core. Zealot/Probe micro doesn't seem impossible versus it, although I sure felt like I had to be super careful with my units or SCVs surround and rape individual Zealots
GoodNewsJim
Profile Joined February 2010
United States122 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 06:02:02
March 16 2010 05:58 GMT
#235
SCV+marine rush worked in Starcraft 1 too. I did it all the time on 2 player maps. Its even more devastating vs zerg. If you do it right with 2 barracks, you can continuously build marines + scv at your main still while attacking.

I typically attack with my first 6 marines and 6-8 SCV. New marines rallied to the marines, new scv rallied to mineral. The funniest part of this build is that I don't even noticed being set back on units since SCV are continuously built.

PS: Bunkers are fun by their gates/pylons.

I'd say with zealots with lowered shield that it would be brutal.
God is real. Jesus is LORD
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 16 2010 06:00 GMT
#236
Yeah the push isn't unbeatable I feel. I've had it stopped several times just by good building placement at ramps and decent micro from opponents.

Definitely not my cup of tea build though.

I've also noticed that protoss can counter it well with some in base proxys to screw with the terran haha.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
dacthehork
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2000 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 06:07:22
March 16 2010 06:02 GMT
#237
rofl

I challenge anyone in this thread to some TvP and I will use this cheese succesfully (might take a warmup game or two), but this build is effective against pretty much any standard or non forge build if executed correctly.

I'll get on right now, warturtle.warturtle, please post in this thread, we will post replays and quote your things about how easy it is to stop.

FAce it the koreans are BETTER than usa atm and probably for the next few years, if they say its true some D iccup users on teamliquid cant really talk.

what you guys are facing is the build done sub optimally, the exact precise build for it to be 100% takes a little getting used to

You cant just throw a random number of marines, you need a certain number of marines to maximize the ranged damage bonus (all of them can attack at once), while microing SCVs in a way to also stall damage + micro damaged ones back using the opponents natural mineral patches.

seriously there are #1 ranked players on USA server who still click all the production buildings to make stuff.
Warturtle - DOTA 2 is KING
duckhunt
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada311 Posts
March 16 2010 06:19 GMT
#238
seriously there are #1 ranked players on USA server who still click all the production buildings to make stuff.


rofl
CieZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States50 Posts
March 16 2010 06:20 GMT
#239
@Dac - We're not trying to claim that we are the be-all, end-all SC2 pros. We're trying to logically debate whether or not the rush is OP. I don't think any of us want to see the game be released and have EVERY TvP match become LOLSCVRUSH!!! The point of the beta is to figure out what is OP and what isn't.

After we have been talking/testing/figuring out specific timings and such it seems to be the consensus that this strat isn't WHOAMG INSTA WIN ALWAYS. Yes the Korean's are better players, their culture promotes gaming while the US culture frowns upon it. They can make hundreds of thousands of US dollars professionally gaming. However, that does not mean that they ALWAYS think of the absolute best strats ever. Take the game SSBM (Super Smash Bros Melee) for example. The technique "Wavedashing" which went on to become almost absolutely essential to playing a lot of characters at a top level was discovered by some random home-run contest player (IIRC). So it is entirely possible that us "worse" US players think of a "better" counter to the rush. Koreans rely on an extremely high level of mechanical skill, while typically foreigners (such as ourselves) rely more on "cheese" strats because we can't beat people that much better mechanically in a "standard" game.

Also there is no "optimal number of marines to maximize the ranged damage" more marines = more damage. I think what you were going for was that there is a specific TIMING at which you need to hit the opponent.
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 06:23:44
March 16 2010 06:22 GMT
#240
On March 16 2010 15:02 dacthehork wrote:
rofl

I challenge anyone in this thread to some TvP and I will use this cheese succesfully (might take a warmup game or two), but this build is effective against pretty much any standard or non forge build if executed correctly.

I'll get on right now, warturtle.warturtle, please post in this thread, we will post replays and quote your things about how easy it is to stop.

FAce it the koreans are BETTER than usa atm and probably for the next few years, if they say its true some D iccup users on teamliquid cant really talk.

what you guys are facing is the build done sub optimally, the exact precise build for it to be 100% takes a little getting used to

You cant just throw a random number of marines, you need a certain number of marines to maximize the ranged damage bonus (all of them can attack at once), while microing SCVs in a way to also stall damage + micro damaged ones back using the opponents natural mineral patches.

seriously there are #1 ranked players on USA server who still click all the production buildings to make stuff.

Your general attitude does not really encourage people to take you up on your "kind" offer...

I never said it was "easy" to stop either, I merely said I think it's stoppable. I messaged you on SC2.
dacthehork
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2000 Posts
March 16 2010 06:24 GMT
#241
its not a kind offer

If you think this isnt IMBA come play me, warturtle.warturtle. I'm currently playing a bunch of TvP practice matches, and will post replays. If you want friendly debate then don't come in this thread saying how easy it is to stop because you beat some guy who didnt execute it properly.
Warturtle - DOTA 2 is KING
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 06:25:30
March 16 2010 06:25 GMT
#242
On March 16 2010 15:24 dacthehork wrote:
its not a kind offer

If you think this isnt IMBA come play me, warturtle.warturtle. I'm currently playing a bunch of TvP practice matches, and will post replays. If you want friendly debate then don't come in this thread saying how easy it is to stop because you beat some guy who didnt execute it properly.

Calm down.

I never came into the thread saying how easy it is to stop? Read my post again. I said I think it's stoppable. This isn't some site where we just fly off the handle and start acting aggressive over random things, so keep cool and we can have a civil discussion...
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
March 16 2010 07:16 GMT
#243
We played 7 games and I ended up going 5-2 in them.

I think it's eminently stoppable, even though I did lose the two games on blistering sands [that was partially my fault for trying something silly though].

As promised by him, here are the replays: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Insane/sc2/vswarturtle.zip
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 16 2010 07:24 GMT
#244
I'm glad to see that another good player took the time to shut down these loudmouths and prove that it's beatable. =D

Insane, what's your ID? I need a good protoss to practice vs.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 07:31:44
March 16 2010 07:31 GMT
#245
On March 16 2010 16:24 Floophead_III wrote:
I'm glad to see that another good player took the time to shut down these loudmouths and prove that it's beatable. =D

Insane, what's your ID? I need a good protoss to practice vs.

Lorelei.teamliquid [I'm done playing for tonight though... I'm only on in USA evenings because of work]
CieZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States50 Posts
March 16 2010 07:31 GMT
#246
Watched 3 of the replays between Insane and War. What war did was actually a bit different than what I've seen done, and what I've done myself. Upgrading to OC is just a waste of time... I have hit the toss base with more units, at the same time...

I definitely think the rush is beatable, don't get me wrong, but I would like to test it against a solid protoss player who plays as if it is coming.

Feel free to send me a message @ CieZ.zeic sometime... I also need a lot of practice vs. Protoss playing a more standard build.
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
March 16 2010 07:33 GMT
#247
On March 16 2010 16:31 CieZ wrote:
Watched 3 of the replays between Insane and War. What war did was actually a bit different than what I've seen done, and what I've done myself. Upgrading to OC is just a waste of time... I have hit the toss base with more units, at the same time...

I definitely think the rush is beatable, don't get me wrong, but I would like to test it against a solid protoss player who plays as if it is coming.

Feel free to send me a message @ CieZ.zeic sometime... I also need a lot of practice vs. Protoss playing a more standard build.

I'll take you up on it tomorrow evening then! I'm not saying what I did is the perfect counter or something (and in fact prior to this evening I had never played versus the build) and I'm still figuring it out myself!
Trap
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 07:36:19
March 16 2010 07:34 GMT
#248
Sorry but it's obvious warturtle's micro is really bad comparatively. Not to mention he never tried to bunker. He never even tried to hide that he was going for this build which makes it way more deadly if you wall. if you don't wall tvp you're saying, oh hey, I'm going to have so many marines, it won't matter if you pressure with zealots. big clue right there.
coffeetoss | "Team Liquid Fantasy Proleague: Tales of Miserable Failure and Deep Regret" -Kanil
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 07:40:22
March 16 2010 07:37 GMT
#249
On March 16 2010 16:34 Trap wrote:
Sorry but it's obvious warturtle's micro is really bad comparatively. Not to mention he never tried to bunker. He never even tried to hide that he was going for this build which makes it way more deadly if you wall. if you don't wall tvp you're saying, oh hey, I'm going to have so many marines, it won't matter if you pressure with zealots. big clue right there.


No offense intended to him, but he's a lower ranked player anyway, which I was worried someone would point out as invalidating it . I'm willing to try it versus anyone who's up for it though!

I don't really think bunker is a part of the strategy from what I've heard?

If you are close enough into the Protoss base for the bunker to do more than merely contain them in their base, and you've been there long enough to build a bunker, they're probably fucked anyway.
Merely containing with a bunker doesn't seem to be the goal, since you just suicided your economy and will certainly lose a long game if you just sit in his nat or whatever.



And yes it was obvious he was going for the build, but I didn't do any weird builds that specifically took advantage of it. I kept a probe to watch for his attack coming out, but I always scouted his base first and ascertained what he was doing.
I usually scout after pylon anyway, so it's not like I did much differently from normal.

I 13 gated and then gased afterwards in every game, I didn't do 10/10 gate and go "hahaghahguagha"
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27148 Posts
March 16 2010 07:37 GMT
#250
Well the point of the games was to show that the rush is stoppable (unlike what was claimed), so obviously Insane knew it was coming.
ModeratorGodfather
Trap
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States395 Posts
March 16 2010 07:45 GMT
#251
If he did the rush off a wallin would you have really built 2 zealots before a stalker? If he was smart and after you scouted it and killed his probe then proceeded to expand off MM/PF you would have been very far behind from building 2-3 sentries so quickly. The one time he decided to expand he should have been able to hold you off but he didn't get inside his bunkers (all 4 of them) in time.

The bunker isn't as for a contain, it's that inside your base they can bunker near your gates/core so your reinforcement zealots are useless. Just another point about how T's execution in those games was poor.
coffeetoss | "Team Liquid Fantasy Proleague: Tales of Miserable Failure and Deep Regret" -Kanil
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 07:52:15
March 16 2010 07:51 GMT
#252
On March 16 2010 16:45 Trap wrote:
If he did the rush off a wallin would you have really built 2 zealots before a stalker? If he was smart and after you scouted it and killed his probe then proceeded to expand off MM/PF you would have been very far behind from building 2-3 sentries so quickly. The one time he decided to expand he should have been able to hold you off but he didn't get inside his bunkers (all 4 of them) in time.

The bunker isn't as for a contain, it's that inside your base they can bunker near your gates/core so your reinforcement zealots are useless. Just another point about how T's execution in those games was poor.

In the final game (where he expanded) I totally overreacted to his 1 rax opening, because I thought he was just trying it but with a proxy ;D
Usually seeing that sort of opening I don't overreact that way, I was just so in the mindset of "he's doing marine/scv all-in".

On a lot of maps it's not possible to get the wallin up in time to prevent me from getting in. There are ways to make it more difficult to stop, but I don't think it's impossible.

And I never did make Stalkers (except in the game where it went longer), so I assume you mean Sentry :O [I prefer Zealot/Sentry as an opening to getting Stalkers on the whole]



My point is that he can't just magic a bunker out of nowhere. They take quite a while to build, and if he's sufficiently safely established that close to my base such that he can make the bunker, I'm probably in bad shape anyway.
Trap
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 08:07:46
March 16 2010 08:05 GMT
#253
Well, I think until you try it against a Terran who knows what they're doing, this argument is moot. The problem remains that T can threaten this rush, then not go through, and be at a large economic or tech advantage while being safe from a counter OR have a good shot at outright killing you if you scout it last on a 4 player map / T gets wall up / T proxies the 2nd rax.

Unfortunately I am on EU; otherwise I would be up for some games though :p
coffeetoss | "Team Liquid Fantasy Proleague: Tales of Miserable Failure and Deep Regret" -Kanil
dacthehork
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2000 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 08:29:44
March 16 2010 08:28 GMT
#254
rofl

Wow you're wrong, first of all I won the 2 games on blistering sands, if we go by these small sample size logic, 100% win rate on TvP blistering sands, the last FE I made a simple bunker mistake and wasnt trying the cheese at all and would have easily won that game otherwise. Also I tried it on desert oasis which is obviously a terrible map for it. I was more experimenting than anything. Also OB is not a bad investment, as it allows you to pull all SCVs.

If you discount the LT games where I was adapting to the sentry blocking (sending marines earlier fixed that, see blistering sands), against 2 gate you actually send marines later, I would have easily won steppes had I not mismicroed. So really those games are more signs that the build is really powerful. Also the last game if you watch the replay half my army bugged out trying to get past the bunker.

You are only 200 elo higher and have like 3x my games played, I don't know where you get off on this lower skill BS. It's pretty obvious this build is extremely powerful, and I'm sure if we played 10 more games I would go over 70%.

If you look at the last 3 serious attempts at it, I went 66%, with a mismicro not really a failing of the build causing the last fail.

saying 5-2 is a misnomer, as I used a completely different timing/build in the first 2 games, and desert oasis was not good for the build, and the final game I didnt even do the rush.

Using the modified BO I was 2-1 on decent size maps.
Warturtle - DOTA 2 is KING
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 08:41:10
March 16 2010 08:39 GMT
#255
I don't know why you're so defensive about everything. Did I say you're lower skilled? I said you're lower ranked, which you are (and you even just said so yourself while trying to prove me wrong)....

It was some other guy (Trap) who said your micro sucked. In fact, I'm about the only person who's not saying stuff like that.....

First Blistering Sands game I tried going 2nd gas before 2nd Gateway, which was a mistake in retrospect (and something I gave up in future games).
Second Blistering Sands game I played poorly in general, including trapping my own Zealot with my own buildings. I don't have a good excuse for why I did that, just poor play I suppose.

Also I'm pretty sure the reason you did the FE on the final game was because you lacked confidence in your ability to win with the rush, because I'm quite sure if you thought you would win with it you would've done it judging by your posts ^^


If we're allowed to just randomly discount games, then I went 5-0.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 16 2010 08:40 GMT
#256
That is the saddest shit I've ever seen. You beat him when he's never seen it before and didn't know how to react, then he learned how to react and beat you silly on a variety of maps, and in standard play. You have absolutely no idea how stupid you look right now.

That being said, I also ascertained that there may be slightly more powerful variants of this rush, and you can probably maximize it perfectly, but protoss should always be ok if he scouts and reacts accordingly. As far as koreans opening forge first, it's a sloppy fix, and it just goes to show that foreigners are no worse off than koreans when it comes to sc2.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
dacthehork
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2000 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 08:53:41
March 16 2010 08:44 GMT
#257
Also he knew it was coming.. he won the first 2 games, I adjusted timing then I won 2, then I picked desert oasis to see how it would feel, He won easily (obviously the map screwed up my timing (first time ever trying it on that map)) I made a large micro mistake on Steppes, then did a Fast Expand on the final game.

Conclusion? Inconclusive


You can't determine that from our 6 games of me using this rush. I would have kept playing 20-30 of them, I only FE the last game to test if his opening would be weak to it. I would expect at least 30-40 games on the same map to even slightly determine it, and watching replays to see if both players did reasonably perfect.

when you are testing the overall strength of a build you CAN discount certain games, for instance the first game I was supply capped and had micro problems due to right clicking too fast (in sc2 this gives an attack move command for some reason), Also I was attacking far too late in the LT games, after I modified the build and attacked earlier I had much more success. The build is really powerful but I needed more practice because I had never seen the double sentry block before while doing it. I slightly adjusted the build to attack earlier against 1 gate 1 core. If you watch the steppes game where I rushed, it was pretty successful until my micro mistake and somewhat clear that it would have done extremely well if I had not screwed it up.

When analyzing raw strength of builds, saying the first 2 matter, when I obviously attacked too late, and even insane agreed, doesnt make sense. With the earlier attack against 1 gate 1 core which we only had 3 real games of practice of I won 2-1, discounting Desert Oasis, which he had 3 sentries out before my attack even reached, showing the long rush distances heavily affecting timing.

To even test it on the various maps would require MANY games. The only conclusion from those games is that it seems likely with good micro the Terran can inflict heavy damage and usually win if he times it correctly, as the SCVs when properly microed are amazing.

floophead if you want to test it more versus me, add me warturtle.warturtle
Warturtle - DOTA 2 is KING
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
March 16 2010 10:09 GMT
#258
there you go, that is a much more reasonable tone. your ego isn't at stake here - people are just discussing a build in a beta build, there is nothing to prove =]
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
dacthehork
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2000 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 10:16:29
March 16 2010 10:15 GMT
#259
anyway I'm now 1750+ or w.e. so the whole lower ranked thing.. yeah

Just killed every protoss I played easily with this cheese, including some very very good players. It's also extremely hard to stop because it looks very much like a 1 rax fast expand if you hide the 2nd barracks
Warturtle - DOTA 2 is KING
MeruFM
Profile Joined February 2010
United States167 Posts
March 16 2010 10:50 GMT
#260
Gonna have to side with Insane on this one after watching the replays.
Even as a terran player, I could see how protoss can just do the first force field when half my scvs move up the ramp which he did not do. He already has 2 zealots there and a sentry there, with another coming.

As long as the protoss player see that the terran is making 2 rax, they'll just make an extra sentry.
Doesn't seem any more difficult to counter than early pool zerg attacks.

And warturtle so could have won that last game if he made a ghost or two. the sentry field +2 armor is just too much for a marine heavy group to fight properly.
Bane_
Profile Joined October 2005
United Kingdom494 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 22:39:44
March 16 2010 12:46 GMT
#261
It kinda feels like an scv change is going to happen one way or another since you now have people doing 9/11 scv rushes (backed up by 2 more that build and rally over so 11 in total) on the smaller maps like steppes of war and they can win because of that extra 20 life each worker has compared to their P and Z counterparts.
Spail
Profile Joined March 2010
Russian Federation6 Posts
March 16 2010 16:05 GMT
#262
Well actually dac fucked up first games, attacking with 4-5 marines and stuff. Push with 8 marines (and more on the way from terran's base) is harder to beat. Would like to see more replays with a better pefrormed push (I think dac has adjusted already). Also you didn't play on Scrap Station in this pack, wide ramp is really a pain in the ass in this situation.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 16 2010 16:07 GMT
#263
Crap station has a monster rush distance. Beating the rush there is elementary. I did it with a terrible build and no micro on a laptop last week.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
Spail
Profile Joined March 2010
Russian Federation6 Posts
March 16 2010 16:47 GMT
#264
On March 17 2010 01:07 Floophead_III wrote:
Crap station has a monster rush distance. Beating the rush there is elementary. I did it with a terrible build and no micro on a laptop last week.


What? No it doesnt. Rushing on this map takes as much time as on Blistering Sands for example.

Who did you play vs? Hope its not another bronze league guy.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
March 16 2010 19:45 GMT
#265
It's important to scout the map for the proxy racks. Doing this on the map pool out now is actually very easy.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-16 21:15:06
March 16 2010 21:14 GMT
#266
On March 16 2010 21:46 Bane_ wrote:
It kinda feels like an scv change is going to happen one way or another since you now have people doing 9/11 scv rushes (backed up by 2 more that build and rally over so 11 in total) on the smaller maps like steppes of war and they can win because of that extra 10 life each worker has compared to their P and Z counterparts.

20 extra life
Bane_
Profile Joined October 2005
United Kingdom494 Posts
March 16 2010 22:39 GMT
#267
On March 17 2010 06:14 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2010 21:46 Bane_ wrote:
It kinda feels like an scv change is going to happen one way or another since you now have people doing 9/11 scv rushes (backed up by 2 more that build and rally over so 11 in total) on the smaller maps like steppes of war and they can win because of that extra 10 life each worker has compared to their P and Z counterparts.

20 extra life


Thanks for the correction.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 16 2010 22:50 GMT
#268
It sounds like rush distances are too small on some maps then. This would help reduce the effectiveness of these allins and others as well. If you want macro starcraft, you gotta have macro maps.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
sikatrix
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada172 Posts
March 16 2010 23:26 GMT
#269
So I read the OP and a few of the last comments, and decided to try it and show my experience using this rush. Here is my first attempt which is very sloppy but still successful, vs a very angry toss; http://www.mediafire.com/?jjtrygytzzd
(I "perfect" it after that game, and games end ~6:50)
2nd http://www.mediafire.com/?nzttcnn2wmo
3rd http://www.mediafire.com/?ztzdouzznmk
4th http://www.mediafire.com/?jznmzgvfdan
Those are only a few of my recent last games, and were the "closest" to stopping it. All reps have somewhat sloppy play by me but i'm still able to pull it off, which imo is a problem. Also all reps are vs plat players, if that has any relevance.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 16 2010 23:32 GMT
#270
It's a new cheese that I would say 90% of protoss players have not been introduced to. Of course they're going to lose. This strategy is going to be effective until people learn how to stop it. That's the way almost all new strategies work.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
CieZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States50 Posts
March 17 2010 00:50 GMT
#271
The way I've played the rush, and seen the rush played, it is a complete all-in, which is why I said making an OC is useless. You pull ALL SCVs once you hit 8 marines. If you have been doing it properly you will roll out of your base with 30 total pop (22 SCV, 8 marines) and have enough minerals for 4-5 more marines to rally over.

After I finish my reading and discussion blog for one of my classes I'll test the rush against some one. I believe that as long as it is scouted it is definitely beat-able, but it would be interesting to try different counters/timings I think.
Mnijykmirl
Profile Joined February 2010
United States299 Posts
March 17 2010 01:43 GMT
#272
Inspired by the idea of Protoss vulnerability to these kinds of attacks, I've just been going for heavy marine aggression on a gamble anytime I scout Toss just straight teching or skimping on T1. And it pays off.

There's just too much one-gate tech, chronoboosting solely on probes, and generally lazy T1 on toss out there. First unit out is a stalker and they shoot straight for robotics with no scouting, minimal to no attempt at simcity, and the first reaction is "cheese- nerf" and/or insults.

Sikatrix of those games(I sure you can watch replays I'm just pointing it out to make a point)
-First toss was supply capped for 60 seconds to get his firs zealot out
-third toss waited 60 seconds to make his first zeal, then makes a stalker and forgets to use chrono
-fourth toss's first unit was a stalker, and had a robo out by the time your rush hit. That's 1 stalker defense straight to T2. You could have opened normally, scouted that, put a reactor on your rax and beat him that way if you wanted to.

All 3 have no practical attempt at scouting.
Only the second made a real chance at countering. He would have been better going for a sentry than a stalker, and then made -no- micro attempt at all on the battle.

This rush might be too strong with the slower gateway, but most toss are playing such sloppy T1s that I can't feel guilty.
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-17 01:53:26
March 17 2010 01:52 GMT
#273
pulling all SCVs will stop production from your racks...
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
ramen247
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States1256 Posts
March 17 2010 02:07 GMT
#274
On March 17 2010 10:52 cartoon]x wrote:
pulling all SCVs will stop production from your racks...



facepaaalm/////

i hate this ugly firebat. i want a marine.
CieZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States50 Posts
March 17 2010 02:23 GMT
#275
You move out with 22 SCVs, 8 Marines and you have at least 200 minerals saved. This lets you queue at least 4 more marines from the barracks, which you rally to your opponent's base to join the fight...

It is just better to play it this way than getting an OC because either way it is a complete all-in strat... You're not going to recover from losing 95% of your economy, plus not harvesting any gas, and losing all your military. Therefore it is way better to spend those minerals on extra marines/SCVs and just throwing everything at the enemy anyways... There is just no reason to leave anything behind if the outcome of the attack decides the outcome of the game.
GoodNewsJim
Profile Joined February 2010
United States122 Posts
March 17 2010 03:38 GMT
#276
On March 17 2010 11:23 CieZ wrote:
It is just better to play it this way than getting an OC because either way it is a complete all-in strat... You're not going to recover from losing 95% of your economy,


I play SCV+Marine rush by only pulling off 6 SCV. It doesn't significantly impact my economy, so I can keep making SCV+marines, and eventually even get tech units. Its nice to have extra mineral coming in so you can create bunkers all through the Protoss base.

I did it a lot in SC1 too when ladder speed was fast(more micro oriented), and River Styx was in the ladder pool.

The cool thing is that the strategy worked even better on Zerg in SC1 pre broodwar. With Broodwar, Lurkers countered a terran SCV+marine rush that stalls into a bunker wall supported by tanks.

Maybe the ALL in SCV+marine rush is what everyone is talking about, but I push in with 6marines + 6 SCV, and I don't even notice my economy being slowed down much since I'm still constantly making SCV+marines.

I'm just saying you can do this rush without going all in and it be successful.
God is real. Jesus is LORD
knyttym
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States5797 Posts
March 17 2010 04:18 GMT
#277
why do Terrans keep going for the orbital command? I really dislike that decision and it seems to slow your rush quite a bit.

Finally got to trying the build out in single player on steppes of war. I got 6 marines and scvs on opponents ramp at 4;13 in game time. The purpose was to compare it to Floophead's replay timings as he was able to stop an allin with his 1gate core build.

If you look at what you have at that time it's one sentry barely finished and one just starting. Your opponents rush came 30game seconds late because of that dumb OC. Also Terran can shave even more time off that speed if he can pull scvs faster so that it reaches their ramp as the 6th marines pops.

Antimage
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1293 Posts
March 18 2010 01:28 GMT
#278
Hmm

Sorry to bump this thread a little, but I've started to find another way to play pvt.

By opening pylon/gate/gas/pylon with a probe in their base, if I don't see a gas come up on their end, i put a forge down b4 and put a cannon at my ramp.

Once they get rid of my probe, I send another probe below their ramp to check if they're going to come at me with a bunch of marines and a shitload of workers.

If the masses of marines/scv's come, I will cannon up another 2 (the games I tried this in today, it didn't come to this as the forge/cannon they scout usually discouraged them) and fend it off.

If they don't come, then it means they just got a late gas in lieu of an orbital command or something, and I promptly put a nexus down at my nat.

The point is, in this opening, you're forced to play very defensively, and you will probably end up a little economically behind than you would if you played a regular game. Come mid-game, you should have an ob at their base to see what's going on and react properly.

I don't think this will set behind the Protoss player in an even matchup, as you pretty much have an instant win by the time your colossus comes out. Maybe the matchup is meant to be played this way? Where Terran will be able to pull out 1 or 2 vikings for your colossus in time, as EMP is obviously not an effective counter to it.

Just a thought, but let me know what you think. I'll be willing to try this out with people too, just PM me.
Spail
Profile Joined March 2010
Russian Federation6 Posts
March 18 2010 12:08 GMT
#279
I don't see any way to defend vs this rush with sentry. By the time T comes u have only 1 sentry, what u gonna do with it?
FortuneSyn
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1826 Posts
March 18 2010 12:43 GMT
#280
On March 18 2010 10:28 Antimage wrote:
Hmm

Sorry to bump this thread a little, but I've started to find another way to play pvt.

By opening pylon/gate/gas/pylon with a probe in their base, if I don't see a gas come up on their end, i put a forge down b4 and put a cannon at my ramp.

Once they get rid of my probe, I send another probe below their ramp to check if they're going to come at me with a bunch of marines and a shitload of workers.

If the masses of marines/scv's come, I will cannon up another 2 (the games I tried this in today, it didn't come to this as the forge/cannon they scout usually discouraged them) and fend it off.

If they don't come, then it means they just got a late gas in lieu of an orbital command or something, and I promptly put a nexus down at my nat.

The point is, in this opening, you're forced to play very defensively, and you will probably end up a little economically behind than you would if you played a regular game. Come mid-game, you should have an ob at their base to see what's going on and react properly.

I don't think this will set behind the Protoss player in an even matchup, as you pretty much have an instant win by the time your colossus comes out. Maybe the matchup is meant to be played this way? Where Terran will be able to pull out 1 or 2 vikings for your colossus in time, as EMP is obviously not an effective counter to it.

Just a thought, but let me know what you think. I'll be willing to try this out with people too, just PM me.


You don't need to wait for his gas as confirmation. Just see if he made 10 rax 11 supply 11 rax...
Antimage
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1293 Posts
March 18 2010 13:11 GMT
#281
nvm I think you just get too behind if you throw up a cannon after a forge... terran tech will come much faster. Going to try variations and hopefully post a replay or two ^^
DadE
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada44 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 13:40:24
March 18 2010 13:40 GMT
#282
I think that were just gonna have to face the fact that SC2 will be imba in some aspects when they release the game. IMO its prolly gonna take until blizz releases a SC2 expansion to even the game out. Just like Broodwar
Hmm... I should 2 hatch. muta this jerk
duckhunt
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada311 Posts
March 18 2010 13:56 GMT
#283
there hasnt been a patch in a while now, blizzard will DEFINITLY address this rush and also terran mech in the next patch, I am really excited to see how they are going to try to balance this out ^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^
GoDannY
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany442 Posts
March 18 2010 14:24 GMT
#284
I'm also curious what they'll do about the other races, see stalker discussion and protoss anti-air, zerg roach and infestor issues etc. etc.

I hope Blizzard will take their time to make a more or less fair balance instead of rushing for the release during summer just to get this piece in store...

They took so much time for development, keep a clear mind and finish it properly, otherwise it might be a mess!
Team LifeStyle - it's more than a game
professorjoak
Profile Joined July 2008
318 Posts
March 18 2010 18:05 GMT
#285
On March 17 2010 12:38 GoodNewsJim wrote:

I play SCV+Marine rush by only pulling off 6 SCV. It doesn't significantly impact my economy, so I can keep making SCV+marines, and eventually even get tech units. Its nice to have extra mineral coming in so you can create bunkers all through the Protoss base.

I did it a lot in SC1 too when ladder speed was fast(more micro oriented), and River Styx was in the ladder pool.


River Styx was an awesome map. Dual bridges and backdoor expansions. Truly ahead of its time. Yay nostalgia!

PS. Are you Crazy~Jim~Lizard? That's old school if you are.
"The different branches of Arithmetic -- Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision." --Lewis Carroll
2longbe4
Profile Joined April 2009
Poland24 Posts
March 18 2010 22:28 GMT
#286
I really hate this rush. I lost like 6 TvP's today and all of them was the marine scv rush. I even tried to stop it few times after scouting the reactor. Sentries doesnt work, mass zealots doesnt work, I just cant think of any strategy that would beat it. Any help?
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
March 18 2010 22:50 GMT
#287
There's no reactor in this build. A reactor build is much different and is countered differently.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
checo
Profile Joined November 2008
Mexico1364 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 23:14:36
March 18 2010 23:11 GMT
#288
On March 18 2010 21:08 Spail wrote:
I don't see any way to defend vs this rush with sentry. By the time T comes u have only 1 sentry, what u gonna do with it?


Block ramp and pump zealots like your life its on it XD, also ppl say the second one its almost done so you can block again and get more defense before he can come in, then hes not getting any stronger and you are ^^
El amor no mueve al mundo, ni hace brillar el sol, pero el amor hace latir este corazon....
LF9
Profile Joined November 2009
United States537 Posts
March 19 2010 10:22 GMT
#289
This cheese is actually ridiculously strong. Playing in Platinum on the Asian servers and having lots of games vs top T Koreans, I can tell you that this build is extremely common and dominating now.
Spail
Profile Joined March 2010
Russian Federation6 Posts
March 19 2010 13:02 GMT
#290
On March 19 2010 08:11 checo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2010 21:08 Spail wrote:
I don't see any way to defend vs this rush with sentry. By the time T comes u have only 1 sentry, what u gonna do with it?


Block ramp and pump zealots like your life its on it XD, also ppl say the second one its almost done so you can block again and get more defense before he can come in, then hes not getting any stronger and you are ^^


No its not almost done. Even if u block it 2nd time, what u gonna do with 2 sentry and 1 zealot, apart from writing 'gg'?
LF9
Profile Joined November 2009
United States537 Posts
March 19 2010 13:50 GMT
#291
On March 19 2010 22:02 Spail wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2010 08:11 checo wrote:
On March 18 2010 21:08 Spail wrote:
I don't see any way to defend vs this rush with sentry. By the time T comes u have only 1 sentry, what u gonna do with it?


Block ramp and pump zealots like your life its on it XD, also ppl say the second one its almost done so you can block again and get more defense before he can come in, then hes not getting any stronger and you are ^^


No its not almost done. Even if u block it 2nd time, what u gonna do with 2 sentry and 1 zealot, apart from writing 'gg'?

Exactly. But to clarify, no, the second one isn't close.
after.fallout
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16 Posts
March 19 2010 14:50 GMT
#292
now I am no plat, but from what I have seen in replays I think the build can be improved for T (talking about the 6 rine/22scv rush):

1. I think the second rax can be proxied. For example in blistering sands you could put it in the gold or in the 6 or 12 pos (whichever is the one next to the enemy backdoor). If you do this I think you can come in with 7 rines instead of 6.
2. Building an OC slows you down. If you screwed it up a little and you have 22 scvs before the 6 rines come out then you can get OC, but doing it beforehand slows down scv production too much
3. leave 4-6 scvs at base to keep mining and use the rest to defend the rines, never attack with them unless you can surround all enemy units (if his probes are in play, don't even try; if his probes don't come out then it really doesn't matter because you won)
4. On blistering sands at least, you can be attacking his backdoor while building up the rush. This way if he does happen to have 2 sentries you can just turn around and go finish the backdoor and come in with 8-10 rines instead of the 6-7 at the front.
Antimage
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1293 Posts
March 19 2010 15:03 GMT
#293
On March 19 2010 23:50 after.fallout wrote:
now I am no plat, but from what I have seen in replays I think the build can be improved for T (talking about the 6 rine/22scv rush):

1. I think the second rax can be proxied. For example in blistering sands you could put it in the gold or in the 6 or 12 pos (whichever is the one next to the enemy backdoor). If you do this I think you can come in with 7 rines instead of 6.
2. Building an OC slows you down. If you screwed it up a little and you have 22 scvs before the 6 rines come out then you can get OC, but doing it beforehand slows down scv production too much
3. leave 4-6 scvs at base to keep mining and use the rest to defend the rines, never attack with them unless you can surround all enemy units (if his probes are in play, don't even try; if his probes don't come out then it really doesn't matter because you won)
4. On blistering sands at least, you can be attacking his backdoor while building up the rush. This way if he does happen to have 2 sentries you can just turn around and go finish the backdoor and come in with 8-10 rines instead of the 6-7 at the front.


1. people are proxying raxes already ^^
2. OC ensures that even if your rush fails to kill toss for some reason, your mule will ensure that you remain ahead or on par.
3. you have to attack with them - thats how defending your units work =|
4. making 2 sentries means he wont be able to bring his high tech up because of lack of gas ^^ so either way, it's gg.
after.fallout
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16 Posts
March 19 2010 15:40 GMT
#294
1. Good to hear, I hadn't seen it done yet.
2. An OC at 22 is fine, just before that an OC takes just about the same time as 2 scvs. 2 less scvs means a smaller scv force (esp if you keep back with 4 of them). Could you use mules as extra meat?
3. I mean don't focus fire with them. They should never surround 1-2 zeals and leave the other 4 to walk around. They need to always be between the marines and the zealots.

Spail
Profile Joined March 2010
Russian Federation6 Posts
March 19 2010 19:38 GMT
#295
Can you tell me where do you get korean replays? Would like to see some games with forge 1st.
ShineShineBear
Profile Joined November 2009
United States62 Posts
March 20 2010 19:56 GMT
#296
I have been playing around with this concept a lot on the Terran and Protoss side and I think SCV hp should be reduced to 50hp because of this build. Nerfing the marines and barracks timing would change other MUs too drastically. Also buffing the zealot would throw off ZvP (but maybe making Stalkers specialize vs light would work),but bringing SCV hp to 50 seems to be a much better option. Seriously though SCVs don't need an extra 20hp just because they cannot regenerate life, and killing them while they build structures is not reliable unless the SCV exposes himself. However I still feel the marine SCV attack would still be strong even with the SCV HP reduction.
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
March 20 2010 21:35 GMT
#297
On March 21 2010 04:56 ShineShineBear wrote:
I have been playing around with this concept a lot on the Terran and Protoss side and I think SCV hp should be reduced to 50hp because of this build. Nerfing the marines and barracks timing would change other MUs too drastically. Also buffing the zealot would throw off ZvP (but maybe making Stalkers specialize vs light would work),but bringing SCV hp to 50 seems to be a much better option. Seriously though SCVs don't need an extra 20hp just because they cannot regenerate life, and killing them while they build structures is not reliable unless the SCV exposes himself. However I still feel the marine SCV attack would still be strong even with the SCV HP reduction.

If attacking building SCVs becomes too powerful from a HP reduction they could give the SCV some kind of a +1 armor buff while building. 'Scaffolding Security; armor increased by 1 while constructing a building' lol.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
CrownRoyal
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Vatican City State1872 Posts
March 20 2010 21:40 GMT
#298
scvs fucking go inside of buildings now anyway, make them 40hp
You're pretty when I'm drunk.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
March 20 2010 21:44 GMT
#299
On March 21 2010 06:40 CrownRoyal wrote:
scvs fucking go inside of buildings now anyway, make them 40hp


That's like the last part of building, scvs could also do that in SCBW, at least with command centers, dunno about other buildings
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
P00RKID
Profile Joined December 2009
United States424 Posts
March 20 2010 21:57 GMT
#300
Protoss loses to this if they do a greedy or bad BO, if they don't scout very well, and if they don't pull probes correctly. And there are a few things some people forget because they get caught off guard. Don't forget to drone drill. Click on minerals across the map so you probes move through SCVs to get to the marines, as it is sometimes what you need to do to help surround while you micro your zealots. If you get a sentry, hide it a bit behind ramp, and only block off ramp after half of the rush comes up and have entered. The T will be massively screwed if you also pull probes right then. 2nd sentry will come around shortly after and you can block again if need be.
"Does your butt hurt? 'cause you fell from heaven once the cast was over?" Artosis
Landsoul
Profile Joined February 2010
United States23 Posts
March 22 2010 20:38 GMT
#301
^ This.

You can easily push them back if you 2 gate as soon as you see this coming, pull probes, and have individual zealots chase individual marines, and 2-3 probes chase individual marines. Ignore SCV's, they won't do much damage at all. If the marines stop to fire they get raped and the SCV's just run around chasing your probes and zealots not doing much at all.

It turns into a chase game until one of the players gets overpowered by better micro.

The easiest counter to this is the faster realization that he is doing this rush by really good scouting.
Paladia
Profile Joined August 2003
802 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-23 14:05:49
March 23 2010 13:33 GMT
#302
Even if it can be countered, it requires much more skill and game knowledge to counter than to do it, hence it creates an unbalance of the game.

The game isn't only suppose to be balance for the 2% top players, else no one will play it. Right now this has about an estimated 95% success rate in anything but platinum league (and even there the success rate is way too high). Most likely this build will be heavily nerfed in the next patch, either by reducing SCV hp/damage and/or reduce Gateway time.
I can no longer rest under the tree of wisdom, since you have axed down the roots feeding it.
Antimage
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1293 Posts
March 23 2010 13:37 GMT
#303
On March 23 2010 05:38 Landsoul wrote:
^ This.

You can easily push them back if you 2 gate as soon as you see this coming, pull probes, and have individual zealots chase individual marines, and 2-3 probes chase individual marines. Ignore SCV's, they won't do much damage at all. If the marines stop to fire they get raped and the SCV's just run around chasing your probes and zealots not doing much at all.

It turns into a chase game until one of the players gets overpowered by better micro.

The easiest counter to this is the faster realization that he is doing this rush by really good scouting.


Personally, I would put my 2nd gate up while my robo builds and have a forge up after I put my core down, just in case, which will delay my robo for a few seconds.

I will have problems with earlier timing, but with proper zealot micro (and constant production + 1 sentry), even on non-ramp maps, I usually make it through.

Of course, the alternative is just to 2 gate or to proxy rush rofl. ^^
Mente
Profile Joined December 2009
United States288 Posts
March 23 2010 16:03 GMT
#304
On March 23 2010 22:37 Antimage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2010 05:38 Landsoul wrote:
^ This.

You can easily push them back if you 2 gate as soon as you see this coming, pull probes, and have individual zealots chase individual marines, and 2-3 probes chase individual marines. Ignore SCV's, they won't do much damage at all. If the marines stop to fire they get raped and the SCV's just run around chasing your probes and zealots not doing much at all.

It turns into a chase game until one of the players gets overpowered by better micro.

The easiest counter to this is the faster realization that he is doing this rush by really good scouting.


Personally, I would put my 2nd gate up while my robo builds and have a forge up after I put my core down, just in case, which will delay my robo for a few seconds.

I will have problems with earlier timing, but with proper zealot micro (and constant production + 1 sentry), even on non-ramp maps, I usually make it through.

Of course, the alternative is just to 2 gate or to proxy rush rofl. ^^


Yea I said that before. Counter their cheese with your own. And sadly, toss cheese is better lol.
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Esports World Cup
11:00
2025 - Final Day
Solar vs ClassicLIVE!
Cure vs TBD
Serral vs TBD
EWC_Arena13439
ComeBackTV 3169
TaKeTV 679
Hui .577
JimRising 304
Fuzer 263
3DClanTV 256
Rex251
EnkiAlexander 218
CranKy Ducklings127
Reynor108
BRAT_OK 62
SpeCial37
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena13002
Hui .577
JimRising 314
Fuzer 263
Rex 239
Reynor 116
UpATreeSC 56
BRAT_OK 55
SpeCial 36
StarCraft: Brood War
Nal_rA 5818
Horang2 5481
Shuttle 2743
Bisu 2128
BeSt 1207
Larva 921
EffOrt 877
Barracks 416
actioN 395
Mini 381
[ Show more ]
Stork 353
Soma 221
ggaemo 210
Snow 208
JYJ164
TY 125
Hyun 114
Soulkey 113
Backho 106
Rush 71
sorry 55
Sharp 46
sSak 33
Sacsri 19
Shinee 19
Aegong 14
soO 13
Terrorterran 12
Stormgate
BeoMulf76
Dota 2
Gorgc4160
XcaliburYe206
420jenkins105
KheZu93
League of Legends
febbydoto3
Counter-Strike
fl0m1669
sgares151
Other Games
gofns6887
singsing2104
B2W.Neo1367
Beastyqt620
ArmadaUGS102
QueenE82
KnowMe81
djWHEAT32
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV396
League of Legends
• Nemesis4690
Upcoming Events
OSC
57m
CranKy Ducklings
20h 57m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d
CSO Cup
1d 2h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 4h
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
1d 19h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Online Event
4 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.