EPTI'm really interested to see how the developers will look into this.
[D] TvP Cheese rush overpowered? - Page 9
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
I'm really interested to see how the developers will look into this. | ||
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Taefox
1533 Posts
Can anybody please post some replays bout this cheese rush ? | ||
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IronG
United States6 Posts
it really shows how you can win without really trying kinda sad | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On March 15 2010 00:32 -orb- wrote: Post a replay and your rank/league or you will be ignored. Clearly either 1: your opponents are trash or 2: you're not telling the truth Lol, it's Raven - mYm.Raven. He's not some random  He's pretty high ranked platinum still. | ||
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trickser
Germany139 Posts
On March 15 2010 01:54 IronG wrote: hmm pretty much i wanted to try this out i know it requires no skill what so ever and micro as well pretty much ive got 7 marines and all scvs except 2 in my base and did attack ground and won heres a replay http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&tab=upcoming&show=details&id=114609 Ok is this an accurate execution of the build? If so the rush hits protss at 5:00 . I tested out a game where i went 2 gateway, and at the time the push occured i had 6 zealots + 2 halfway done and lots of probes + gas and a cybernetics core warping in. Are people honestly telling me they cant defend a rush consisting of 7 rines and 12 scvs with 6 zealots and 14 probes? That would be really ridicoulous. http://www.mediafire.com/file/yzwgmynjejn/2010-03-05 22-43-18.SC2Replay Here the replay. | ||
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Ideas
United States8170 Posts
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
On March 14 2010 06:14 kimchiterran wrote: This is why we need some low ground vs high ground penalty for range units, back in game. I'd say 50% of damage reduction will do fine (as I totally agree with Blizzard on not having "random" penalties in a competitive game, like we had in Broodwar). Raven As was discussed in some other big posts, 50% damage reduction is very hard to balance. 50% damage reduction doesn't necessarily mean kill in twice as many hits, which can easily lead to chaotic and unbalance-able damage interactions. Edit: just realized I'm a zealot now! | ||
Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
I'm just putting this out there because people apparently love comparing SC2 to SC1, so why not find the equivalent in SC1, and show that it's also pretty hard to stop it in SC1 too (even harder considering goons don't outrange marines), so that'll hopefully stop this silly discussion over a build that, although it exists, will certainly never become the standard. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:32 Mystlord wrote: :/ Was this rush impossible to pull off in SC1 or something? Because cheese is cheese. I'm pretty sure that a Goon or two + Probes in SC1 can't hold off 6-8 Rines + SCVs. I'm just putting this out there because people apparently love comparing SC2 to SC1, so why not find the equivalent in SC1, and show that it's also pretty hard to stop it in SC1 too (even harder considering goons don't outrange marines), so that'll hopefully stop this silly discussion over a build that, although it exists, will certainly never become the standard. Because stalkers are worthless, warpgates are nerfed, and SCV AI is ridiculous now. | ||
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:32 Mystlord wrote: :/ Was this rush impossible to pull off in SC1 or something? Because cheese is cheese. I'm pretty sure that a Goon or two + Probes in SC1 can't hold off 6-8 Rines + SCVs. I'm just putting this out there because people apparently love comparing SC2 to SC1, so why not find the equivalent in SC1, and show that it's also pretty hard to stop it in SC1 too (even harder considering goons don't outrange marines), so that'll hopefully stop this silly discussion over a build that, although it exists, will certainly never become the standard. Tempest showed us that a well-placed shield battery gives a single dragoon much dignity  It's very difficult to compare this rush to a rush of comparable power in BW (BBS) because BBS is all-in. This build isn't... According to most people who've actually tried this, the only viable "survival" build against this T rush is forge-first, which allows T to cancel the push and FE for a game-winning advantage! Thus, the comparable BW timing would be a 10/10 rax or 10/11 rax that showed up against a say... 12-gate (timing-wise). Since the economic build for P with chrono-boost in SC2 is 14/14 I think this seems about right... In BW, this is, of course, an auto-loss for P... 12/12 gate is far too late to defend against a 10/10 rax. | ||
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kimchiterran
Poland81 Posts
On March 15 2010 00:32 -orb- wrote: Post a replay and your rank/league or you will be ignored. Clearly either 1: your opponents are trash or 2: you're not telling the truth Hey, I answered that one already, are you even reading the posts? Raven | ||
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KunfO
United States81 Posts
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ExileStrife
United States170 Posts
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AdahnSC
United States376 Posts
also i think sentries go well with this build for forcefield blocking (since your forge is late and cannons might not finish in time), killing the scouting scv with range, and because they cost very little minerals while cannons are high in minerals. | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
On March 14 2010 23:57 IdrA wrote: ive played like 7 games on asia and i avoid watching artosis replays on principle, i dont really have any idea how they play. id imagine foreigners would be more creative, but the top koreans are largely war3 players, and amongst americans the war3 players seem to be quick to pick up abusive cheesy stuff (out of necessity since they suck ass beyond it). hah.. that's not true at all. it's just a blanket assumption people make with no real experience to back it up. you clearly have no idea how much micro a good warcraft 3 player needs. The reason sc1 players aren't dominating isn't because of higher skill. (that's absurd and makes no sense). In my opinion, it's because of two reasons. Firstly, they're playing the game as if it's starcraft 1, and that just doesn't work. Secondly; and I think this is actually the bigger reason; their micro is nowhere near the level of the average warcraft 3 player. Now I'm not talking about the pro level. On the pro level, I completely agree the sc pros will dominate over the wc3 pros.. that seems obvious. I am talking about the amateur level... and by amateur, I mean most high ranked platinum players. That's amateur. Most amateur warcraft 3 players are far more skilled in micro than the amateur sc1 player. The micro you see in starcraft 2 is VERY similar to the micro of warcraft 3; and really not similar to the micro of starcraft 1. Having played both games for years, I can tell you this. The starcraft 1 players have an advantage in APM, macro, and have a more intuitive grasp of gameflow, but their micro instincts are, on average, severely lacking compared to the warcraft 3 players. | ||
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fantomex
United States313 Posts
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
On March 15 2010 05:19 ExileStrife wrote: I know the focus is on the all-in marine + SCVs, but I feel like there's another variant of the cheese rush that I've been losing to constantly. It is 4-to-6 marines, 2-or-so marauders, and no SCVs. The timing is pretty much the same, but this time they have dryad slow to make it so your zealots never get an attack in. I have even lost to it when they research stim and go in without dropship support -- it is impossible to run the zealots away and wait for the stim to wear off because the marauders can slow you down. I am fairly certain this is the reason david kim opens stalkers. In order to help kill marauders. He seems to get 3 of them, and go straight to his opponents base and tries to pick off marines / marauders. You can get a kill this way, 2 if you're lucky; you will put some damage on his troops at least, take a bit of damage, and run. If you escape without losing a stalker your shields begin to recharge and you'll be at a slight advantage; moreso considering in the coming fight those stalkers won't be taking damage, it will be the zealots. it's at this point he switches to zealots. Pretty sure he chrono boosts his gateways as much as possible during these early stages. So he'll have 3 stalkers, some number of zealots depending on the timing of the opponents rush, and at some point an added sentry. This should be able to deal with the push. Clearly the enemy will be targeting the zealots first. A few stalkers will help with the run and fire tactic the MM will do on you. On that note you should pick off the marauders first, since stalkers do better damage to them. Against the really early rush you will pull probes as well. As time goes on I believe David Kim adds 2 or so more sentries and keeps pumping zealots, and will use force field to prevent the enemy from running. At that point the fight is mostly a matter of micro and positioning. | ||
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
Two first games I scouted too late and lost with this cheese. Third game I put down a forge cause it was a 4 player map and I was paranoid and didn't want to risk again. Turns out the last guy played normally and beat me in the face with M&M cause I was so far behind in tech cause of the forge and cannon. Thank god this is beta. | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
On March 15 2010 06:25 Yamoth wrote: I here stand in aw of your theory crafting and the fact that you can't seems to understand how much things changed since the infamous David Kim game that you keep mentioning about. How do you recommend dealing with the marauder / marine push? The game I'm referencing was after the gateway nerf but before the warp in nerf. Anyway, I don't have the game so all I can do is theory craft. So you can expect me to keep theory crafting. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm arrogant in my beliefs.. I am willing to listen to alternatives | ||
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