On March 14 2010 17:08 cartoon]x wrote:
I don't play the Beta. I am theory crafting. But I do know that David Kim opens every PvT game with stalkers ^_^.

Things change dramatically since then. Barrack build faster while gateway build slower and warp tech take almost 3 times as long to finish thus reduce the number of units have when Terran hit you with his marine ball.

Arco

United States2090 Posts

March 14 2010 08:19 GMT

#123

They should just add Shield Battery effect to Nexus. Sounds like it would be a simple solution to this problem.

In SC1 and SC2 all races except SC2 protoss have an early defense structure that comes from normal tech means.

SC1:
Spawning Pool > Sunken Colony
Barracks > Bunker
Gateway > Shield Battery

SC2:
Spawning Pool > Spine Crawler
Barracks > Bunker
Gateway > ???

Even in SC1, gate>core was 'viable' (re: survivable) in PvZ without getting a Forge right away, this just seems dumb to force you into going Forge first to defend against a ridiculously powerful all-in. Not to mention, on maps like Desert Oasis and Scrap Station where your natural isn't sharing a choke with your main, you'd have to get Cannons in base and FE would be impossible.

When the Dark Pylon/Obelisk was scraped, why didn't they reimplement its abilities somewhere? You could speed up units, cloak a unit, and restore caster energy. Two of the three abilities could definitely be applied to help protect against this rush. I'm not fans of them, but they used to exist. I think they should just add Shield Restoration to Nexus. This seems like a logical solution, and gives a more "strategic" choice to using Chrono Boost vs x ability.

I think this seems like the most plausible solution without effecting other matchups. Obviously other ideas would be to buff stalkers and/or add Blink to Cybernetics Core, which would have an actual (negative?) impact on other MUs. (Though, my bias as Protoss says Stalkers could use the help all around

)

cartoon]x

United States606 Posts

March 14 2010 08:20 GMT

#124

The slower gateway I believe was a compensation for chrono boost. The warp ins are indeed a major setback. But I am not convinced the method I described won't successfully delay the opponent enough for you to get cannons. I would at least be willing to try it.

Deleted User 61629

1664 Posts

March 14 2010 08:35 GMT

#125

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Jyxz

United States117 Posts

March 14 2010 08:37 GMT

#126

yeah stalkers are so weak its just plan stupid, they should do like twice the damamge they do

cartoon]x

United States606 Posts

March 14 2010 08:42 GMT

#127

On March 14 2010 17:35 Inori wrote:

Show nested quote +

So the whole wall blocking was to get cannons? Did you actually read at least the OP?

If he has pulled workers off and is at your base with them, it is perfectly fine to get cannons. At that point, cannons no longer represent an economic disadvantage. He has lost the economic advantage by pulling workers. The issue with going cannons off the bat is if he does not do the worker pull. In that instance, you are behind and have done the wrong build order.

Rothbardian

United States497 Posts

March 14 2010 08:43 GMT

#128

By the time the Terran has 8-12 Marines, you should have plenty of Zealots. Make the Marines dance, and out comes your Colo. Seriously, if a Terran is waiting until they get 8-12 Marines AND pulling SCV, that should be auto-win for Toss. I should know, I've tried early pushes against a fast teching Toss with less marines than that and still have a lot of trouble stopping it. An early Marine push is not all-in, fyi.

Chronoboost your Gateways after you do the first few on your Nexus. For some odd reason I suspect this "all-in" isn't a 12 Marine push LOL.

cartoon]x

United States606 Posts

March 14 2010 08:50 GMT

#129

Yamoth: The rush, according to the OP, involves pulling nearly all the SCVs off mining. But according to you, they only pull 4 or 5 SCVs. So who's right?

Floophead_III

United States1832 Posts

March 14 2010 09:01 GMT

#130

There are multiple marine allins. The one in the OP is 6 marine + all scv. It's not a good allin and it's easily stopped. You're going to notice he doesn't get gas, which means marine allin, which means get mass sentry and be ready to pull probes. In addition if you are scouting correctly you'll see him leave his base (always place a probe outside his main to check for when he's pushing). This strategy is complete cheese trash.

Deleted User 61629

1664 Posts

March 14 2010 09:05 GMT

#131

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nodule

Canada931 Posts

March 14 2010 09:05 GMT

#132

+2 stalker base damage
-5s gateway build time
+5s reactor build time

ho hum...

cartoon]x

United States606 Posts

March 14 2010 09:12 GMT

#133

Your response is basically a crock of shit. You build the gateway when you see he has pulled SCVs. If he turns around at that point, you can cancel the gateway. This exchange ends with you having an economic advantage. Soon after you biuld the gateway, at around the time he's halfway to your base, you will have enough money to put down a forge. Again, at this point, if he scouts this and turns back you can just as easily cancel your forge. And you will gain a substantial advantage by him pulling off workers, and then aborting. So your response is not reasonable.
In terms of your stalkers delaying him, I think you could get cannons. If it is a 8 marine / all scv rush, it takes a fair bit of time to kill a gateway while being harassed. The forge will probably get up shortly after he arrives at your base. Now, if he's brought that many SCVs, all you have to do is survive and you're going to win. So by all means, build them by your other gateway near your nexus.
I like the guys suggestion up there of recognizing the zero gas build and going for sentries. That would actually be the first thing I tried. That or laying down a forge right when I saw the no gas build.

DeCoup

Australia1933 Posts

March 14 2010 09:15 GMT

#134

With mule even all scvs off minerals may not nessessarily be all in as long as they have enough energy for mule calldowns to allow constant scv reproducrtion. But from what i understand the amount of SCV left on minerals is enough to allow both repopulation of SCVs AND continued production of marines from the rax.

Feefee

Canada556 Posts

March 14 2010 09:41 GMT

#135

I hope this is beatable somehow^^; I like the current state of TvP...

kimchiterran

Poland81 Posts

March 14 2010 09:44 GMT

#136

So... wall of text and still no single replay?

Raven

IdrA

United States11541 Posts

March 14 2010 09:51 GMT

#137

On March 14 2010 17:43 Rothbardian wrote:
By the time the Terran has 8-12 Marines, you should have plenty of Zealots. Make the Marines dance, and out comes your Colo. Seriously, if a Terran is waiting until they get 8-12 Marines AND pulling SCV, that should be auto-win for Toss. I should know, I've tried early pushes against a fast teching Toss with less marines than that and still have a lot of trouble stopping it. An early Marine push is not all-in, fyi.

Chronoboost your Gateways after you do the first few on your Nexus. For some odd reason I suspect this "all-in" isn't a 12 Marine push LOL.

fast possible robo bay starts around the time the rush is approaching your base. dont post if you havent actually played the game.

ProoM

Lithuania1741 Posts

March 14 2010 09:59 GMT

#138

protoss'es can get forge if they scout 2 rax, then when they see scvs coming just make cannons @ his expansion, and even if T decides not to attack, some mining time is lost, money on 2nd rax spent and protoss can expand to his natural with no problems. If T tries to expand by cutting units for reinforcements in contain, protoss breaks out easily and expands himself, takes the map control etc. etc. :}

cartoon]x

United States606 Posts

March 14 2010 10:16 GMT

#139

I agree Raven, we need a replay to really settle this.
Forge on sight of two rax would be inconvenient. Maybe if your probe stays alive long enough and you dont spot gas going up, forge is reasonable.

kimchiterran

Poland81 Posts

March 14 2010 10:23 GMT

#140

So far I easily defended all variations of this rush just with base 2 gate zealots opening (no forge). Late second gate still makes it suitable. I chrono boosted my gates and used part of the probes to fight of course. And I'm not even a Protoss user.

Raven