|
Bio , ghost, viking seems to be the strongest option by far. It is mineral heavy which is good as ghosts and vikings will take alot of gas. Mech and ghosts don´t go well together.
Also bio is good as it negates the immortal which is a otherwise great unit, it does make the colossus stronger but that´s gas heavy and countered nicely by vikings which in turn force the protoss down a path they dont want to ie making stalkers.
Mech can be countered pretty well by toss with immortals, zealot charge, blink, carriers etc and is less mobile and more gas heavy then bio. Bio´s only counters are colossi and templar which are both gas and tech heavy and countered well by vikings and ghosts. Vikings also give you air dominance which can be used to harass as well. Bio is just superior.
|
I feel like Bio is the way to go. You just need really good control and awareness when you actually push out. If he has HTs you need Ghosts, if he has Colossus I'd spend almost all your gas on Vikings
|
On March 13 2010 09:46 Markwerf wrote:
Bio , ghost, viking seems to be the strongest option by far. It is mineral heavy which is good as ghosts and vikings will take alot of gas. Mech and ghosts don´t go well together.
Also bio is good as it negates the immortal which is a otherwise great unit, it does make the colossus stronger but that´s gas heavy and countered nicely by vikings which in turn force the protoss down a path they dont want to ie making stalkers.
Mech can be countered pretty well by toss with immortals, zealot charge, blink, carriers etc and is less mobile and more gas heavy then bio. Bio´s only counters are colossi and templar which are both gas and tech heavy and countered well by vikings and ghosts. Vikings also give you air dominance which can be used to harass as well. Bio is just superior.
This is so wrong it makes me want to cry. Immortals are the only "counter" to mech and they don't really counter it so much as hold their own. Chargelots melt so fast to hellions it's incredible, and tanks do full damage to them in siege now which means they are almost useless except as meatshields. Blink is worthless, completely. It doesn't prevent your stalkers from dying instantly and also doing no damage because stalkers really do suck. Carriers aren't a counter, they're a different style of play. You need to build starports and a fleet beacon for carriers, then not die to a push. Terran can make vikings which do just fine vs carriers, and thors do ok as well.
Mech is gas heavy aside from the reactor built 100 mineral killing machines called hellions. If you have too many minerals, build more hellions. If you aren't making tons of them all the time, you're playing wrong.
The one thing I'll give you is that mech is immobile. You really need to utilize hellions and dropships and even nukes to keep protoss on the defensive. Hellions are the best harass unit in the game with regards to killing workers imo.
Stalker/collosus does fine as a midgame army vs bio. In fact zealots aren't even useful until you have charge anyways, so you should pretty much be making stalker/collosus and maybe a couple immortals and sentries. I have never lost to a bio army in midgame for a reason, it's bad.
|
The best part of meching vs P is how many damage upgraded Hellions you get to play around with for worker harassment
|
Has anyone tried mass hellion + thor/ghost?
|
Personally I only like Hellions as a mech unit vs P. I hate tanks due to their immobility, the gas the take up and the fact that they don't easily solve any of my problems. My problems are generally Storm, Colossus and Charge Zeals. In mass yes Tanks are great, but getting that mass is very tough since taking a third base is virtually impossible on nearly all the maps + by then your inviting your opponent to just make Carriers. I dislike Thors cause they are slow and bulky and also gas heavy and super easily countered by... everything other than Stalkers.
Hellions on the other hand are difficult for Protoss to counter since all their Gateway units lose to them -- Stalkers included. Immortals are a soft counter and Colossus are a hard counter but come out much later (He has to spend a lot of gas on early units or he just dies to hellions, so the Colossus should be fairly late) and are easily answered with the bazillion Vikings you can afford since your army is Mineral heavy.
|
From what I've seen of your games, Cow, you usually build a bunch of hellions before transitioning into MMM/Medivac/Viking. Why do you bother with the bio at all rather than simply building more Hellions, Ghosts, Vikings and possibly Ravens?
|
On March 13 2010 10:50 CowGoMoo wrote:
Personally I only like Hellions as a mech unit vs P. I hate tanks due to their immobility, the gas the take up and the fact that they don't easily solve any of my problems. My problems are generally Storm, Colossus and Charge Zeals. In mass yes Tanks are great, but getting that mass is very tough since taking a third base is virtually impossible on nearly all the maps + by then your inviting your opponent to just make Carriers. I dislike Thors cause they are slow and bulky and also gas heavy and super easily countered by... everything other than Stalkers.
Hellions on the other hand are difficult for Protoss to counter since all their Gateway units lose to them -- Stalkers included. Immortals are a soft counter and Colossus are a hard counter but come out much later (He has to spend a lot of gas on early units or he just dies to hellions, so the Colossus should be fairly late) and are easily answered with the bazillion Vikings you can afford since your army is Mineral heavy.
I usually open with a hellion drop since I find players are totally unaware of how to defend it, and I can outmicro almost anybody with those death buggies. However then I transition into tanks and usually end up taking my expo unless they're going for an allin counter (which they often do). I find about 6 tanks is the good critical amount to where you really start to slaughter everything, but by themselves they don't do too much early, you gotta have hellions or marines or something else there.
Personally I think bio/ghost/viking is probably possible, but it's only a matter of time before people learn how to play vs it. I also forsee a major stalker buff in the future for protoss and perhaps that will make it less effective. I wonder how well archons do vs bio armies though, mixed with speedzeals and HTs maybe that's safer and more effective? I'd like to play some games vs you just to see how my style holds up. I haven't had that pleasure yet =D
|
archons aren´t viable because of ghosts really.
As for the decision between mech and bio as in which do you upgrade it comes down to what you prefer as your core army I guess, hellions or marine/marauder. Personally i prefer marine/marauder as it just feels stronger in general then massing mech, most because siege tanks are not as great as they used to be. They take way more careful positioning and are very vulnerable to stalkers and immortals.
|
I don't think you realize how careful you had to be with tanks in TvP in sc1. This feels much easier cause my unsieged tanks don't suck horribly. I do agree, for the time being it probably comes down to style.
|
Yeah floop, I found it funny that an unsieged tank does 24~ dps to armored targets, vs. a sieged tank only doing 20 (but that number doesn't include splash).
They aren't completely awful unsieged at this point against the right targets.
|
On March 13 2010 13:21 RPGabe wrote:
Yeah floop, I found it funny that an unsieged tank does 24~ dps to armored targets, vs. a sieged tank only doing 20 (but that number doesn't include splash).
They aren't completely awful unsieged at this point against the right targets.
splash makes a HUGE diff though..with a large number of tanks doing splash..thts a lot of extra dmg.
but yah there isn't a "best" build bio, mech, biomech...it is rly just personal preference...at least rite now. it will also depend ALOT on the map. being able to secure that 3rd expansion is pretty important for mech, as well as good positions that tanks would be able to defend.. bw had a lot of well designed maps (well the korean designed ones haha), and blizzard has learned a lot. but the metagame for sc2 will be greatly affected by the types of maps made.
bio is a lot more mobile, while i think mech is stronger in terms of power wen massed up and wen u have the resources and have the position.
|
apparently blizz is right now working on buffing mech. hopefully more mech in tvp and tvt then! just like in bw and i agree, on maps where it's hard to get 3rd like desert oasis or blistering sands in hard to go pure mech. but on maps like kulas ravine or LT it's pretty much viable i think. but be aware of the bloody P air
|
On March 13 2010 19:49 PredY wrote:apparently blizz is right now working on buffing mech. hopefully more mech in tvp and tvt then! just like in bw and i agree, on maps where it's hard to get 3rd like desert oasis or blistering sands in hard to go pure mech. but on maps like kulas ravine or LT it's pretty much viable i think. but be aware of the bloody P air
whered u get info bout a buff for mechs?
tried mech today against toss..if they go carriers (scan a lot), start getting vikings, if toss is only just switching tech..go for a timing push rite away before he can get his carriers out and u shud be fine. against void rays, a good number of rines is good enuff (as well as pushing with turrets)
|
Q. Great job with Terran. Mech seems weaker and less reliable than a bio build at the moment. Any plans to buff mech?
A. We are looking at Terran mech build now. Actually right now. The balance guys are currently testing some fixes we tried this morning. We will get something to you guys as soon as we can.
That is from the Q&A from yesterday.
|
On March 13 2010 21:32 FictionJV wrote:
Q. Great job with Terran. Mech seems weaker and less reliable than a bio build at the moment. Any plans to buff mech?
A. We are looking at Terran mech build now. Actually right now. The balance guys are currently testing some fixes we tried this morning. We will get something to you guys as soon as we can.
That is from the Q&A from yesterday.
link?
|
On March 13 2010 21:43 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 21:32 FictionJV wrote:
Q. Great job with Terran. Mech seems weaker and less reliable than a bio build at the moment. Any plans to buff mech?
A. We are looking at Terran mech build now. Actually right now. The balance guys are currently testing some fixes we tried this morning. We will get something to you guys as soon as we can.
That is from the Q&A from yesterday.
link?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=115747
|
i think MMM + ghost will be crushed earlier or later. if the protoss handles his high templar well u cant emp all in right time and he get 1-2 storms off and all ure marines are dead meat and completely useless, thats why i use Marauder(+medivacs)+Hellion+Ghost at the moment, with some tanks after second expansion or earlier tanks if he goes colossi. so after one expansion i got 2 factorys and 2-3 rax and 1 starport, so its a mixture of bio and mech but i think a good one. Hellions are great in big fights cuz of their splash dmg and 80 hp > 55 hp (from a marine), and they MELT zealots like shit.
i think u wont win in the longrun with marine/marauder if u enter mid/lategame, marines are just too bad then, thats my experience/guess
|
On March 14 2010 00:33 OgerAffe wrote:
i think MMM + ghost will be crushed earlier or later. if the protoss handles his high templar well u cant emp all in right time and he get 1-2 storms off and all ure marines are dead meat and completely useless, thats why i use Marauder(+medivacs)+Hellion+Ghost at the moment, with some tanks after second expansion or earlier tanks if he goes colossi. so after one expansion i got 2 factorys and 2-3 rax and 1 starport, so its a mixture of bio and mech but i think a good one. Hellions are great in big fights cuz of their splash dmg and 80 hp > 55 hp (from a marine), and they MELT zealots like shit.
i think u wont win in the longrun with marine/marauder if u enter mid/lategame, marines are just too bad then, thats my experience/guess
completely agree with this althought i think 2 or 3rax tops and then factories is better. because mech + ghosts melts P ground and your marines scare him off from going voidrays. if he goes carriers then go vikings.
|
Well i think 3 Fax is enough with ~2Expansions, two with techlab and one with reactor, i prefer adding more raxes because:
- u can fast swtich to marines if u see voidrays/phoenix
- Marauder with medivac are a great meatshield for securing the tanks, u shouldnt forget that! they are better than hellion only. Especially if his immortalcount is high, then a Marauder/hellion/tank mix is better than tank/hellion and tank/thor/hellion imo
and yea ure right, if he goes carrier the only choice is vikings =]
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
