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Well the ultimate question is:
Mech or Bio?
i feel like Bio is good early and mid game, with fast emp tech it is strong but gets owned by mass collosus - perhaps adding vikings is the solution? MMM+ghosts+vikings
when meching, tanks+hellions is strong but later in the game hellions become useless (collosi melt them) and emp tech is later too. what's a good unit combo when meching? tanks+hellions+some infantry into tanks+thors+emp+vikings? the gas requirements are huge though
i've tried both strats and can't decide what is better. i feel the mech will be the way though.
thoughts? ideal BOs, tech routes?
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As a toss player i would say bio combo is hardest to play
adding vikings is good but i dunno...
I like to play Void Rays + mass speedzealots at the moment.... what u think is hardest to counter for Terran?
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i think in this version mech isnt a great choice. Protoss always gets an observer early in your base and all he has to do to counter your mech is to build a second robo and pump immortals only. I guess u get stomped then.
Other Reaons why mech suck:
a) U cant put pressure on your enemy in the beginning, without a ghost u arent even capable of fighting a mixed p force with immortals..
b) Void Rays are more dangerous then
c) charging zealots, blinking stalker, immortals - is the siege tank really a good against these? For Stalker u dont need tanks, marauder does the job aswell
Why mech could be good:
a) u can better fast expand with a early siege tank, 1rax fe vs Ingatemasspump Protoss is extremly difficult. Bunkers blow because immortal melt it and Planetary fortress is a big eco loss... no mules
b) a 200 army of hellions tanks and thors is one hell of a damage output
c) mass range 9 colossi and psi storm isnt that bad if u go mech
well i really dont know whats the deal in TvP, this matchup is really difficult to understand in the current state imo, i only can say vikings and mmm+ghost is working for me, but i dont "like" this unitcombo gameplaywise.
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bio with mech support is the best atm I believe
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maybe bio + thors are good in Tvp, tanks splash your own marines/marauder to death if u dont focus well, thats what thors doesnt do =), u could try then to stun colossi with thorabilty but this is kinda hard, cuz it takes some time until they unleash the 500 dmg.
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The terran bio push with emp seems to be slightly stronger than the protoss push if done properly. But toss should be able to fend it off because of their closer production line. I like to get cloak and nuke as i'm pushing so I can throw a knife in their pylon infrastructure if they hold the push off. You should be following up that push with an expansion and some bunkers and tanks either for defense or contain. It's an interesting game vs P if they stop the push and you have an earlier expansion (they saturate theirs far faster and usually win if you get an expansion at the same time)
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bio is good but collosi absolutely melt them even though you cast some good emps. i dunno if you can win vs a good macro toss with bio. anyway you need 4 sieged tanks to ONE shot a collosus AFTER you've EMPed it, so vikings are probably the better choice as is thor. as ogeraffe said, tvp is one damn matchup to understand 
keep the ideas coming!
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On February 28 2010 07:55 PredY wrote:bio is good but collosi absolutely melt them even though you cast some good emps. i dunno if you can win vs a good macro toss with bio. anyway you need 4 sieged tanks to ONE shot a collosus AFTER you've EMPed it, so vikings are probably the better choice as is thor. as ogeraffe said, tvp is one damn matchup to understand keep the ideas coming!
Vikings rape Colossus. The side effect of this is that they'll be using a lot of their gas on stalkers, which means less Colossus in the first place :p Also, since you have air (They might go Void...), you can drop the shit out of them and on maps like LT you can cliff abuse their Nat. Bring 2 Drops one with 2 tanks the other with 6 marines and scan their obs if you start getting shot. Their Colossus should be away from their base with your push + Viking play.
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On February 28 2010 07:55 PredY wrote:bio is good but collosi absolutely melt them even though you cast some good emps. i dunno if you can win vs a good macro toss with bio. anyway you need 4 sieged tanks to ONE shot a collosus AFTER you've EMPed it, so vikings are probably the better choice as is thor. as ogeraffe said, tvp is one damn matchup to understand keep the ideas coming!
Edit: Double Post.
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Can anyone please give me a list of unit counter for me? say for example..
vikings >colossus
with all the protoss units ? I want to bookmark it . Thanks
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Mech is better. Helions are the best harass unit in the game (splash + insane speed + 2 shot drones/probes + minerals only and build with a reactor). Tanks rape everything on the ground. EVERYTHING. Immortals are strong but in low numbers helions/marines are great for taking their shields down quickly and then tanks completely slaughter them. In higher numbers you should have ghosts with EMP out which basically make the tanksplash kill everything instantly. Bio isn't bad in TvP as an opener/pressure build, but you will get completely pancaked if you try to do an extended bio build. I think maybe with some good harass with medivacs and good use of tanks you might be able to make it work, but it'd still get demolished by storm/collosi in head to head combat. Toss also has far superior production with warpgates and chrono, so you really want something that can slaughter him since he's going to reinforce faster. Bio doesn't do that, mech does.
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On February 28 2010 08:26 Floophead_III wrote:
Mech is better. Helions are the best harass unit in the game (splash + insane speed + 2 shot drones/probes + minerals only and build with a reactor). Tanks rape everything on the ground. EVERYTHING. Immortals are strong but in low numbers helions/marines are great for taking their shields down quickly and then tanks completely slaughter them. In higher numbers you should have ghosts with EMP out which basically make the tanksplash kill everything instantly. Bio isn't bad in TvP as an opener/pressure build, but you will get completely pancaked if you try to do an extended bio build. I think maybe with some good harass with medivacs and good use of tanks you might be able to make it work, but it'd still get demolished by storm/collosi in head to head combat. Toss also has far superior production with warpgates and chrono, so you really want something that can slaughter him since he's going to reinforce faster. Bio doesn't do that, mech does.
Ghost own HT. :p
Also, Chargelots will decimate a siege tank line. You will have to focus fire them and not get the Colossus/Immortals.
Colossus get owned by Vikings. Simply micro your Vikings with 9 range. They'll have to focus on getting stalkers, so they'll have less gas for Colossus and Bio rapes Stalkers. So, you not only have more Vikings, but you made them sacrifice more intensive gas units.
Also...whaaaaa. Terran can outproduce Protoss. 6-8 Rax/2 SP/1Fac with add-ons is like Sauron Zerg :p
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TvP doesn't have clear cut unit counters because micro and positioning is heavily involved on the terran side. On the other hand protoss don't seem to have to much micro at all. There ARE some guidelines
Ghost - Necessary support, up to 100dmg aoe is ridiculously good. Also do good dmg vs zealots
EMP > Stalker/Immortal/Zealot/High Templar/Sentry < High Templar
Marines > Voidray and Immortal < Zealots/Collosus
- good filler for all armies
Maruader > Stalker and early Zeal with micro (but not by too much unless you emp or stim) < Collosus/Immortal/Zeal
Stim - Massive improvement vs zealots/stalkers/immortals/warp ray
Hellions > Zealots/Sentry/Probes < anything (even zeal if microed wrong)
- having some in your army mix is not bad, they can sometimes sneak past a heavy fight after zealots are dead and snipe mineral lines
Tanks > Stalkers/Sentry < anything up close
- they add ridiculous dps and are extra effective if the enemy lacks zealots
Medivac - Light support necessary for continuous stim
Vikings > Collosus/Mothership < Stalkers
- good support dps vs zealots
Banshees > Zeal/Immortal/Collosus < Pheonix/Cannons/Observers
Raven > DT/Observers < Pheonix/Blink
- also defense turrets is decent support vs stalkers, a good missile wins game and turrets are decent probe harassers or battlefield dps
Battlecruiser > All with yamato < Warpray and mass Storm are the best counters
Bunkers - Very good protection against collosus and generally good defense. The upgrades research fast and are quite effective in assisting a contain or FE defense (has salvage rememeber) < Immortals
Turrets > Collosus/DT/Observer
If you can snipe the enemy observers do so. TvP is heavily based around vision as removing collosus range advantage and keeping tank range advantage is essential. Watchtowers are incredibly powerful if used correctly and can determine whether you get emp off or they get storm off. Seriously though this match-up is stupid easy for protoss both micro and macro wise as they have all the advantages and generally stronger units (observers are so good as is chrono boost).
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i find the easiest way to counter robo units is just to make tons of marines from 2 rax reactor and continually pumping marauders from 1 rax. if they go stalker heavy opening just switch it around and add a 4th rax midgame for rines.
i dislike making ghosts, they tie up way too much gas and delay your tech a lot. i find it better to just mass rines get stim and a few medivacs to deal with immortals. then again im not very aggressive early game, i just focus on getting my nat up.
i've only encountered one protoss that would go ht tvp vs bio so i have no idea how effective it's going to be vs that.
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If you're committing to more than 2 raxes before expo I'll simply get a collosus and expand myself before you do and I'll have a tech, eco, and military advantage, which in most cases is called winning. Marine heavy builds are completely terrible vs toss, if anything a few marines and marauders are all you need to get an expo up safely, then you should transition to factory units asap. I find you can 1 fact expo completely safely tvp though, and it gives you a far faster expansion which is safe from everything a protoss can do (immortals are annoying but in low numbers even a handful of marines eat the shields which makes them pretty much tank fodder).
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I honestly think they shud nerf down colossus, well they should just move much slower, cuz it's just retarded now 
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nono i 2 rax expo. i used to 3 rax because the longer addon time would cut into marine production too much and leaves you very open for an extended period of time. i do add a 3rd rax after cc though to keep rine production up and minerals down.
going tanks just seems to take way too long and even when you get tanks you have to push very slowly because you dont have mines and i'm pretty sure tanks take longer to siege now. if you 2 rax expo you already have infrastructure invested for bio and if you 1 rax expo you are pretty open to a midgame tech switch to warp rays, though i guess you should be able to scout it, terran don't come close to being able to switch tech as fast a protoss thanks to the necessity of addons and protoss' chrono boost.
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MMM and thor and ghost
thor can freeze the colossus
ghost obviously destroy all shield but for most part nullify the hts
and then the MMM clean up the toss army
this is basically how im playing atm, doesnt work so well cause i didnt get good enough at micro/macro yet but i think its a pretty solid game plan
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You can 100% deny toss the scout by making ur rax+supply depot down the ramp. And then do double reactor rax rush if u see the toss is teching and add 3th rax with either tech lab or another reactor and rush him before he gets colossus.
To even stand chance against the marine rush (he will have no clue what you are doing, you could be teching for all he knows) he needs to either have enough sentry to forcefield his ramp until he has colossus, or have 3-4 cannons placed so they cant be shoot from lowground with scan.
I have taken down alot of top platinum toss on eu this way and only time it failed was when a guy made 4 gate lots/sentrys and that was just poor scouting on my part.
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I've come up with 2 very viable mech openings vs protoss. I'll post up the BOs themselves in another thread when I can compile my replays and write out the BOs. Basically, they're a 1 fact expand and a 3 helion drop into expand. Both of which I've been safe vs early immortals and both of which I've transitioned into winning games multiple times. Ghosts are also very much a viable part of my play if I see robotics, and nukes as well. Nukes are so sweet =D
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I almost primarily go Banshees for early pressure and to scout, then I usually expand + bio(quick ghosts) then start adding in Thors/Tanks/Helions/Vikings/Etc..
Without vultures+mines/goliaths you can't really go pure mech anymore.
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Yes you can. I do it every game. Why do people say wrong things?
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Colos rape bio silly, making tech heavier unit mixes imperative. It's really annoying, I haven't found a good bo as far as tech timing/expo timing yet to fight colos. No matter what I end up trying, it results in fending off the first 1-2 colos, securing my expo if I haven't already, building up until I decide I need to be aggressive a bit to secure a 3rd base, dropping/vikinging/bansheeing/hellioning their 3rd base if they have one as I move out, and then getting completely raped by 6 colos and then they just attack my now mostly undefended nat and walk me over. It's quite annoying. Any ground-based army just gets chewed up in an instant by 6 colos, the splash is too strong.
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It'll be interesting to see if TvP ends up having an optimal unit combo like SC1 because right now you can use just about anything and win if you play well, but none of the choices are easy.
Am I the only one that finds 1rax cc a safe opening? With constant marine production and a wall, protoss can't break you early. You'll have tanks, a bunker or two, and a planetary fortress if necessary (if you scout no expand) to defend the colossus/immortal + zealot/sentry/stalker attack that protoss loves to do. You can transition into whatever from that point too. I like tanks, but you could probably defend yourself with pure bio and vikings.
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I really think terrans need to work on the FE possibilities. I think if they start walling their natural choke, with a few turrets for void ray defense, it would be a good strat.
I'm really curious to see how faster hellions could impact this matchup, now that factory and rax build time is decreased.
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I have never even tried mech in TvP outside of Hellion openings.
I think Hellion + Marauder can work pretty well and I might do this more simply because it gives a lot of opportunities to scout and keep the opponent in check. Would play similar to my TvZ build but I would need a Dropship to do effective harassment. My normal mass Marine blob + EMP +Vikings usually results in me hard core turtling and then just pushing out for a big single blow.
I uploaded a rep pack if anyone is interested =)
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=586542
(Same link as the 1 I put in the official replay thread)
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On February 28 2010 14:28 Floophead_III wrote:
Yes you can. I do it every game. Why do people say wrong things?
upload a replay or something?
it's hard to imagine going pure mech is viable right now as protoss can keep up macro-wise with 3 rax cranking constant marine marauder. if you cut units to build an appropriate factory infrastructure (which i'd imagine is around 3 factories as well) it leaves you open for a very long period of time. i suppose you can turtle better with a few siege tanks as opposed to bio but at least with a bio army you can threaten a push whereas a mech push would require a lot longer buildup to be as threatening.
at this stage 2-3 colossus + zealot immortal mix seems manageable if you have a lot of bio and dodge colossus swipes like you would with lurker spines. the amount of dps you get with a large amount of bio is just sick and there's almost no way a pure mech army can keep up with protoss mobility right now.
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Helions are the one of the fastest ground units in the game. Mech also does massive amounts of splash which means as army sizes go up, your damage output scales exponentially. I'll post up a couple of replays in my own thread to demonstrate BOs and proper mech pushes. I think I have enough to make a legitimate guide.
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my issue isn't with damage it's with the method of getting to pure mech without dying and how to push effectively vs a protoss army.
i mean it sounds pretty good when you are pushing a protoss who puts his army between your base and his base but what if he goes splits his army with a majority of it at your flank away from his base? how do you push then assuming that you dont have enough units to cover half the map? if you slow push his base you get delayed and / or caught in a massive flank (no mines!), if you unsiege and roll out you get massive flank or backstab (no mines!), if you slow push towards his main army you get delayed while essentially gaining no ground. unless it's a fairly congested map there's no way for you to control protoss unit movement (no mines!) or delay a flank (no mines!)
not to mention immortals 3 hit kill just about any terran ground unit other than thor and tank metal like crazy. and you're open to a void ray tech switch (not even a full on switch) 4 of which kill your cc's in about 20 seconds according to another thread. it just seems so vulnerable.
also just thinking about how well immortals can tank is making me cringe. it takes at least 10 shots from any unit to just take it's shield down while it's 3 hit killing nearly every terran ground unit.
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On February 28 2010 15:38 CowGoMoo wrote:I have never even tried mech in TvP outside of Hellion openings. I think Hellion + Marauder can work pretty well and I might do this more simply because it gives a lot of opportunities to scout and keep the opponent in check. Would play similar to my TvZ build but I would need a Dropship to do effective harassment. My normal mass Marine blob + EMP +Vikings usually results in me hard core turtling and then just pushing out for a big single blow. I uploaded a rep pack if anyone is interested =) http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=586542(Same link as the 1 I put in the official replay thread)
Great replays Cow.. I was struggling against top protoss.. now I have more of an idea. thank you 
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On February 28 2010 17:10 Floophead_III wrote:
Helions are the one of the fastest ground units in the game. Mech also does massive amounts of splash which means as army sizes go up, your damage output scales exponentially. I'll post up a couple of replays in my own thread to demonstrate BOs and proper mech pushes. I think I have enough to make a legitimate guide.
Looking forward to this
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Awesome play ^_^
Did you play SC or War3 before?
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thanks!
broodwar yes and dota
but i still think mech sucks, i just got rolled from dracos (nearly) immortals only on kulas ravine. i tried a fast expansion 6-8 rines 2 bunker and 2 fax tanks even stopped scv production to hold his attack but bunker and tanks just melt due to the immortals :\
little frustrating to start always with M&M against p (in other words: boring)
if u guys got some awesome tvp reps, up it!
Maybe i can hold the siege expand if i completly skip bunkers and pump marines out of a rax with reactor
:> i will test it!
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On March 01 2010 04:07 OgerAffe wrote:thanks! broodwar yes and dota but i still think mech sucks, i just got rolled from dracos (nearly) immortals only on kulas ravine. i tried a fast expansion 6-8 rines 2 bunker and 2 fax tanks even stopped scv production to hold his attack but bunker and tanks just melt due to the immortals :\ little frustrating to start always with M&M against p (in other words: boring) if u guys got some awesome tvp reps, up it! Maybe i can hold the siege expand if i completly skip bunkers and pump marines out of a rax with reactor :> i will test it!
You don't always have to do that. On Kulas, you can 2 Starport proxy with fast Banshee+Cloak, followed up by Viking. Yes, it is a little cheesy, but I'm just saying you don't always have to open bio. Also Nuke rush isn't bad....and you have a ghost anyways that you need. It keeps them on their toes. By the time you launch the nuke you should have 1-2 siege tanks + bunker with 4-6 marines around 8-8:30 min mark with Dropships. You could always throw in a hellion or two and harass while you nuke, so he has to multitask. I think it has a lot of potential :p (The nuke rush also isn't cheesy as you should have 27-30 SCV with Rax/Fac/SP + Orbital).
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u are not serious are u
sure banshees are an option but nukes? come on :>
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On March 01 2010 04:26 OgerAffe wrote:u are not serious are u sure banshees are an option but nukes? come on :>
Actually it works quite well...have you tried it? I had one ghost have like 50 kills one game. :p
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nope i didnt
but i stop trying mech starting now, i think i got at least 60 losses out from it, its disgusting
tanks are bad against immortals, bad against colossi and bad against zealots
mech starting suxx and its not even funny :D
MMM+viking ftw.
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(+ghost ofc)
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On March 01 2010 04:45 OgerAffe wrote:
nope i didnt
but i stop trying mech starting now, i think i got at least 60 losses out from it, its disgusting
tanks are bad against immortals, bad against colossi and bad against zealots
mech starting suxx and its not even funny :D
MMM+viking ftw.
Since you have ghost tech all ready, it's actually not bad to hold a ramp. Bunker + Marine + Siege Tank + Ghost is really effective. You have your dropships all ready too, so that opens up harass if they counter attack. They will need to have some type of detection ready, and most don't. When the nuke hits at like 8:30 if you can split their attention its deadly... you are also doing really well economically. You also have the nukes now to hold your ramp too. Lay one of those down and it gives you 30-45seconds extra. They are extremely cheap too, at 100M/G.
Other than that I agree with bio in general is stronger, but this is by no means a "mech" build. You have Rax/SP/Fac, and you can then transition to whatever you want and you have your 2 siege tanks as support. You can drop their expo line, or cliff abuse with the tanks, etc.
Since you have your ghost out early if they try a quick 6-7 min rush with Immortal you completely decimate it. Something to think about.
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bio gets owned by the new 3 nexus probe rush
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I faced a fast exp mech terran and my SC1 instinct of massing zealot + dragoon failed miserably. stalkers just don't cut it at all and zealots get completely owned by hellions. is immortal mass the way to go versus terran mech? he basically just turtled with his expansion until he had 12+ hellions and ~8 tanks and pushed. my army of zealots and stalkers got completely rolled even with a two sided flank.
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On March 01 2010 05:45 aquanda wrote:
I faced a fast exp mech terran and my SC1 instinct of massing zealot + dragoon failed miserably. stalkers just don't cut it at all and zealots get completely owned by hellions. is immortal mass the way to go versus terran mech? he basically just turtled with his expansion until he had 12+ hellions and ~8 tanks and pushed. my army of zealots and stalkers got completely rolled even with a two sided flank.
Did you have charge? Did you have blink? By the time he has 8 tanks you should at least have an immortal, or a colossus....Immortals rape mech, but you have to watch out for ghosts..
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I had charge and blink. i had my stalkers blink next to the tanks but they still got decimated pretty quick. i miss goons ;(
I'll have to try going double robo immortals against it next time. what unit should i mix in with the immortals? just zealots?
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On March 01 2010 06:11 aquanda wrote:
I had charge and blink. i had my stalkers blink next to the tanks but they still got decimated pretty quick. i miss goons ;(
Oh man that was so sweet to watch =D
You didn't really play wrong in that game, more immortals would've been nice but they don't hard counter mech as strongly as you'd think. Helions only take 20 dmg a shot and eat their shields pretty quickly. I think I just punished you for a fast third pretty effectively is all. It's less to do with army composition than timing.
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I've found that TvP Bio is really really really strong early game. It's EXTREMELY hard for me to beat a protoss in the late game if I attempt to mech, as well as if I can't put them away early with bio.
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Mech is strong.
very strong
the key is that you can switch to fast pumping vikings if they go air ( add a reactor ) and you keep building marines out of 1 rax early...(add a reactor there too if necessary)
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I managed a win TvP last night with Bio+Tanks, pushing with bunkers and sensor towers. And also a bit of air support. A few ravens and medivacs would be a good idea for that. There are more opportunities to take advantage of tanks using high ground and line-of-sight-cutting-off things like trees and smoke to let you get some solid tank shots in. I try to spread them out to make a good concave. Tanks aren't useless!
He didn't go Colossus but it might work to just micro your bio back and target fire the colossi with the tanks. If you rally and macro well you can keep a good stream of marines and marauders for the front lines.
( granted, I am only in copper league, but the competition isn't that easy. )
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I prefer mech cause colossus eat mnm for breakfast dinner n lunch. You can try and destroy him early before colossus but sentries reduce bio's damage by 2 which is 1/3rd of your marines damage.
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On March 01 2010 05:45 aquanda wrote:
I faced a fast exp mech terran and my SC1 instinct of massing zealot + dragoon failed miserably. stalkers just don't cut it at all and zealots get completely owned by hellions. is immortal mass the way to go versus terran mech? he basically just turtled with his expansion until he had 12+ hellions and ~8 tanks and pushed. my army of zealots and stalkers got completely rolled even with a two sided flank.
Stalkers arent goons, their the most useless unit throughout mid/late game. Just go mass zealots/immortal and a couple of storms? o_O
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On March 02 2010 12:13 TwoPac wrote:
I prefer mech cause colossus eat mnm for breakfast dinner n lunch. You can try and destroy him early before colossus but sentries reduce bio's damage by 2 which is 1/3rd of your marines damage.
Sentry's are easy to kill, and Vikings absolutely demolish Colossus. The great thing about MMM+Viking is that it Bio costs little to no gas, so all that gas can be spent on Medivacs/Vikings and Ghosts. They compliment each other, whereas the Protoss Army is too heavy on gas, so they cannot get out Senty's, Stalkers, Colossus, and Void Rays. You basically have total air domination and can drop all Protoss expo easy. Mass harass is deadly to toss. And you can easily get +3/+3 around 17-20min mark which is ridiculously devastating coupled with Stim+Medivac+Ghost.
Marines are cheap as hell too :p
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Bio+ghost+air(med/viking)
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I think mech will become more viable as people become more familiar with it. I also think the HSM will be a late game equalizer vs the Protoss Ball.
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Mech requires a lot more strategy and positioning and requires more "effort" (moreso than bio) to set up, but if done properly can do a lot more damage. Pushing with Tanks + turrets and expanding, hellions to harass... only major weakness is that there are no goliaths (thors just dont cut it for AA), so ur hav to scan to make sure if protoss is going air and counter it rite away (with thors or vikings).
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As a Protoss player, I'm very confident fighting mech with any sort of force. Hellions/tanks were meant to fight Zerg, they aren't too effective vs Protoss. Hellions are supposed to be good vs light, but they only have an edge on Zealots if they don't have charge and you micro well. Tanks get downed by immortals.
You can easily beat a toss by Marine rushing since most toss players go 1 gate core. After that, a MMM+ghost push does really well vs Protoss. A few banshees and vikings help too. Once you get a big ball of MMM, ghosts, banshees and vikings, you will be unstoppable unless you forget to EMP. Late game transition into BCs or Thors depending on Protoss's unit composition.
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Right now I'm liking MM+Ghost push. 1 round of proper stim + emp has the potential to annihilate the P army in seconds, ending the game immediately. From there I'm still experimenting. Some players regard Mech as so useless that they use their 1 and only Factory to scout. Others build several and transition to Mech.
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I'm just curious, I've been hearing that most of the time, Terrans in the asian server have been meching. So is it because the North American server Terrans haven't been meching properly? or is Meching really weaker?
Are the current maps designed for mech? Because mech is rly a game of position, etc. I guess if the asian server has been doing it, they must figure mech is stronger than bio...
chck out this VOD for a TvP Mech match
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On March 11 2010 19:57 jamvng wrote:I'm just curious, I've been hearing that most of the time, Terrans in the asian server have been meching. So is it because the North American server Terrans haven't been meching properly? or is Meching really weaker? Are the current maps designed for mech? Because mech is rly a game of position, etc. I guess if the asian server has been doing it, they must figure mech is stronger than bio... chck out this VOD for a TvP Mech match
Good question. Maybe there's some strange 2x Colossus timing using chrono that shuts down bio/ghost rushes that some of us haven't run into/figured out yet. Heh.
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On February 28 2010 09:46 MorroW wrote:
MMM and thor and ghost
thor can freeze the colossus
ghost obviously destroy all shield but for most part nullify the hts
and then the MMM clean up the toss army
this is basically how im playing atm, doesnt work so well cause i didnt get good enough at micro/macro yet but i think its a pretty solid game plan
vikings are more effective than thors imo.
Thors suck, they die super fast move super slow and fuck up alot because how how big they are.
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i've been having some succes going biomech (not many games thought yet, maybe it will prove weak), that means MMM + tanks + hellions + emp, lately. i have won quite a lot of games with pure mech + emp too but air (phoenix + void ray) eats it :l
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On February 28 2010 08:22 boaecho wrote:
Can anyone please give me a list of unit counter for me? say for example..
vikings >colossus
with all the protoss units ? I want to bookmark it . Thanks
It tells you this in game. Press F11 I believe.
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On March 12 2010 07:27 PredY wrote:
i've been having some succes going biomech (not many games thought yet, maybe it will prove weak), that means MMM + tanks + hellions + emp, lately. i have won quite a lot of games with pure mech + emp too but air (phoenix + void ray) eats it :l
so u hav gone pure mech? how much stronger (if it is stronger) is mech than bio against protoss ground units in ur opinion then? is it possible to transition quickly to vikings to counter air units if u can scout/scan protoss going stargates?
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On March 12 2010 14:15 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 07:27 PredY wrote:
i've been having some succes going biomech (not many games thought yet, maybe it will prove weak), that means MMM + tanks + hellions + emp, lately. i have won quite a lot of games with pure mech + emp too but air (phoenix + void ray) eats it :l so u hav gone pure mech? how much stronger (if it is stronger) is mech than bio against protoss ground units in ur opinion then? is it possible to transition quickly to vikings to counter air units if u can scout/scan protoss going stargates?
yeah my strat is 1rax, 1factory pressure expand. i build couple of marines, tech lab for marauders and hellions (you can get the upgrade or not, depends if you want quicker siege tanks). i move out with 2marines 2/3 marauders and 2/3 hellions. usually just to scare him so he stays back and waits for immortals (which he does anyways). meantime i begin my expo.
1st problem with this build - is when he moves out with 2 or sometimes 3 immortals. you have about 5marauders, some marines, 4 hellions, and a tank with siege. basically i immediately start building bunker or two, but even then the toss can eat you. i usually survive just so-so, either with me having advantage and killing all his units or him stalling me enough to get his expo and get ahead.
then i proceed to build more factories. i usually have 2 facts with tech lab and 1 with reactor, getting exp gas and build ghosts. now it depends on the maps, but try to harass with your hellions (even use dropship). when you got a nice force, try to get 3rd expo. if you macro well, tanks and hellions with well casted emps DEMOLISH EVERYTHING on the ground. the only answer to this is to overexpand and overmass the terran (but don't be too much greedy!!) or go air.
and air is the 2nd main problem of mech build. you gotta scan, scan a lot. i recently played white-ra and i didn't scan well enough and then about 6 phoenixes popped out with couple of void rays and i got demolished even though his ground died. i'm afraid putting too much resources into vikings will mean your ground is weak. and thors? phew. they build so long and die so quickly.
i think you need to go marines. thought i think from 2rax could be enough (with sheild and stimpack) and couple of medivacs.
anyway i could post some replays if you want and we could discuss it more. what do you think?
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On March 12 2010 19:51 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 14:15 jamvng wrote:On March 12 2010 07:27 PredY wrote:
i've been having some succes going biomech (not many games thought yet, maybe it will prove weak), that means MMM + tanks + hellions + emp, lately. i have won quite a lot of games with pure mech + emp too but air (phoenix + void ray) eats it :l so u hav gone pure mech? how much stronger (if it is stronger) is mech than bio against protoss ground units in ur opinion then? is it possible to transition quickly to vikings to counter air units if u can scout/scan protoss going stargates? yeah my strat is 1rax, 1factory pressure expand. i build couple of marines, tech lab for marauders and hellions (you can get the upgrade or not, depends if you want quicker siege tanks). i move out with 2marines 2/3 marauders and 2/3 hellions. usually just to scare him so he stays back and waits for immortals (which he does anyways). meantime i begin my expo. 1st problem with this build - is when he moves out with 2 or sometimes 3 immortals. you have about 5marauders, some marines, 4 hellions, and a tank with siege. basically i immediately start building bunker or two, but even then the toss can eat you. i usually survive just so-so, either with me having advantage and killing all his units or him stalling me enough to get his expo and get ahead. then i proceed to build more factories. i usually have 2 facts with tech lab and 1 with reactor, getting exp gas and build ghosts. now it depends on the maps, but try to harass with your hellions (even use dropship). when you got a nice force, try to get 3rd expo. if you macro well, tanks and hellions with well casted emps DEMOLISH EVERYTHING on the ground. the only answer to this is to overexpand and overmass the terran (but don't be too much greedy!!) or go air. and air is the 2nd main problem of mech build. you gotta scan, scan a lot. i recently played white-ra and i didn't scan well enough and then about 6 phoenixes popped out with couple of void rays and i got demolished even though his ground died. i'm afraid putting too much resources into vikings will mean your ground is weak. and thors? phew. they build so long and die so quickly. i think you need to go marines. thought i think from 2rax could be enough (with sheild and stimpack) and couple of medivacs. anyway i could post some replays if you want and we could discuss it more. what do you think?
interesting....(btw I would try mech myself, so far I've been going bio, but I have a lot of school work and have forbidden myself from playing sc2 haha)
if you see your opponent going immortals, when you fast expand, maybe more marines cud help against his first attack since immortals would suck against marines? (they do a lot more dmg against maurauders)
and for sure, harassing w/ hellions is probably really important. even in bw, you need to do it constantly to keep the toss busy. it shudnt be any diff in sc2. keeping an eye on when toss expands, etc so they don't get too big.
for air, i think marines are the easiest solution, after the beginning, i dont think u need to build maurauders anymore, just get rines + hellions + tanks + ghosts. with tanks and ghosts, you wont have enuff gas to get enuff thors/vikings to kill his air army, plus void rays completely suck against rines. if u harass enuff, he prly won't be able to get carriers and if he does, u'll have to start getting vikings.
also, i think getting a few vikings wud be gud, just to defend against zealot/immort bombs (haha a la brood war) as well as lotta turrets.
one other question though, this all sounds very similar to brood war. but now that you don't have mines, you are a lot more susceptible against flanks. how can we alleviate the "no mines" problem lol? i guess one thing is that EMP is a lot easier to get in sc2 than bw, and will help alott
it will also depend ALOT on the map making. maybe meching in all maps wont be ideal or possible and ur have to play smart.
more ppl shud try mech!! TvP looks like it will be an interesting matchup with a lot of builds/options.. does anyone noe how many terrans are actually meching now (say in the platinum league on NA or European servers)? Im not tht gud, only in silver league and i dont want to play anymore cuz im way too busy..
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i saw artosis going mech and i heard most terrans on asia go mech in TvP.
anyway here are the replays i promised: http://www.mediafire.com/?nezubwhimzd
games:
1. vs a decent toss that went zealot charge rush, i almost lost due to poor wall :l but shows mech and emp melts toss ground.
2. exactly what i described as "1st problem". - please discuss this one!
3. vs a good toss, almost lost like in the second, but held it off and raped him - discuss as well!
4. vs white-ra, lost to air ("2nd problem)
5. power of hellions!
6. tried to go biomech - vs Happy again, not bad but i think i had too many barax. will try to go only 2rax for some marines and more factories. - discuss!
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On March 12 2010 21:25 PredY wrote:
i saw artosis going mech and i heard most terrans on asia go mech in TvP.discuss!
can someone confirm this?
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On March 12 2010 21:42 dustdust wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 21:25 PredY wrote:
i saw artosis going mech and i heard most terrans on asia go mech in TvP.discuss! can someone confirm this?
i think u can chck some of artosis' VODs or replays. as for the asian server going mech, not sure..ive just been hearing it..and the way Garimto's interview went, it sounds like hes been goin mech..i uno
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On March 12 2010 21:25 PredY wrote:i saw artosis going mech and i heard most terrans on asia go mech in TvP. anyway here are the replays i promised: http://www.mediafire.com/?nezubwhimzdgames: 1. vs a decent toss that went zealot charge rush, i almost lost due to poor wall :l but shows mech and emp melts toss ground. 2. exactly what i described as "1st problem". - please discuss this one! 3. vs a good toss, almost lost like in the second, but held it off and raped him - discuss as well! 4. vs white-ra, lost to air ("2nd problem) 5. power of hellions! 6. tried to go biomech - vs Happy again, not bad but i think i had too many barax. will try to go only 2rax for some marines and more factories. - discuss!
bump
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On March 12 2010 21:25 PredY wrote:i saw artosis going mech and i heard most terrans on asia go mech in TvP. anyway here are the replays i promised: http://www.mediafire.com/?nezubwhimzdgames: 1. vs a decent toss that went zealot charge rush, i almost lost due to poor wall :l but shows mech and emp melts toss ground. 2. exactly what i described as "1st problem". - please discuss this one! 3. vs a good toss, almost lost like in the second, but held it off and raped him - discuss as well! 4. vs white-ra, lost to air ("2nd problem) 5. power of hellions! 6. tried to go biomech - vs Happy again, not bad but i think i had too many barax. will try to go only 2rax for some marines and more factories. - discuss!
Just watched Artosis vs Fenrir where Artosis goes 1rax 1fac FE into Mech with some marine support. Artosis outmacroes Fenrir at the start but takes heavy losses due to the fact he didnt make a single ghost in a 40min game. I think he would've won fairly easy with some nice EMP's
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I had posted this in the Get Your Builds Played By Liquipedia thread:
On March 12 2010 02:43 See.Blue wrote:I am not in Beta and have no key so I can't write you up a specific build order, but I would be enormously appreciative if you could test (or someone could theory-craft-shoot-down) a TvP Metal + Marauder/Ghost (w. Raven in lategame, gas permitting) build that would aim to approach the matchup similarly to standard SC:BW matches. The tanks, protected by salvageably, leapfrogging bunkers of marauders (with slowing attack) with ghosts on the front lines ready with EMP would give you map control, allowing yourself to slowly push the Protoss while simultaneously enabling you to take an extra expansion or two as seen fit by the player. PremiseThis build capitalizes on three things: + Tanks in SC2 have both higher DPS and greater range than their SC:BW counterparts (See this thread) + Ghosts with EMP absolutely annihilate Protoss forces, and, as icing on the cake, neutralize Immortal's special ability. + Bunker's are rapidly salvageable (I think for 100% return) StrategyThe idea behind the build would be similar to Vulture + Mines + Tank from SC:BW. The major problems with this being effective in SC2 are generally thought to be lack of spider mines/vultures to deal with Zealots (particularly now sporting charge) and Immortals. To deal with this, I would love to see a Terran try to do the good old fashioned Tank line leapfrogging (preferably +1/ ) supported by a few scv's constructing bunkers (say 2-4 at any one given point in time, blocking off as much of the frontal approach to your tanks as possible). These would house marauders who would be aimed at keeping zealots/stalkers off of your tanks (their slowing attack would also probably give your tanks time to get an extra shot off. Either ravens or a flying barracks or something would be necessary to give you enough vision (particularly up cliffs) to prevent stalkers blink-bombing your tank line from out of sight/up cliffs. While setting up this push this would give the terran player time to expand; the only thing the T would have to be exceptionally careful of would be backstabs and protoss switching to air while his troops are committed to the tank line (ie from Warp Prisms or Colossi). However, with BW level scouting and perhaps even forgoing one MULE for a prescient scan mid-to-late game scan (which so far has been rarely seen in SC2), preventative measures could be taken in time to render any of these fairly ineffectual (a handful of vikings for example to deal with voidrays). Lategame, Ravens would probably be quite useful for autoturrent support/worker harassment and point-defense-drone (effectively D-Matrix) support for either your ground or viking force. ConclusionsThe main purpose of this build is to take away the Protoss' options both in terms of unit selection and map movement. This would be a micro/macro intensive build and would require constant scouting throughout to make sure the Protoss isn't committing to air (which is a winnable battle for the Terran if seen coming in advance, and would represent an enormous commitment for the Protoss) or trying to warp in DT into the opponents base. In fact a handful of 'patrol vikings' would probably be handy just to discourage warp prism/colossi cliff-walking shenanigans. In the end however, the Protoss is forced to try to break your marauder/tank/ghost line, which, with proper micro should hold against a food-equivalent Protoss ground force. Feedback/thoughts? Also, thanks again liquipedia guys for doing this!
I would think this would handle most major Protoss plays. Thoughts?
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the problem is you have nothing vs P air. i'd go marines instead of marauders, when you scan P air switch to vikings asap. like in this replay of mine: http://www.mediafire.com/?wznjzogmo2z
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On March 13 2010 03:34 PredY wrote:the problem is you have nothing vs P air. i'd go marines instead of marauders, when you scan P air switch to vikings asap. like in this replay of mine: http://www.mediafire.com/?wznjzogmo2z
I don't think P air is ever that dangerous unless you fall behind on reconnaissance. You just need to be aware you're forcing them to the air then know when it's coming. Let's cover the bases:
+ Protoss can't go Phoenix well because they can't hinder your push well (and seiged tanks/marauders in bunkers cant be anti-grav'd)
+ That leaves Void Rays and Carriers
+ Vikings in Aerial mode would do 14dps to a Void Ray; this means a void ray would have to have all 3 lasers active before it does more DPS than a Viking. Furthermore, if you're sneaky enough to get an EMP on the slow, slow Void Rays the disparity only widens. Lastly, Void Rays cost 200/150, whereas Vikings cost 125/100, meaning that a Viking force will stop everything but an all-in Void Ray push if seen coming (remember too Reactors can help buff viking numbers rapidly). Once again, constant scouting is a necessity.
+ Carriers aren't worth considering due to their exorbitant price. If you pushed properly with mech you could be destroying their base much faster than their 1 or 2 carriers could damage your army.
If the Terran pushes ground and maintains constant intel on the Protoss, there is very little I see that the Protoss can counter with.
All DPS data from this thread.
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phoenix + void ray is pretty good combo, white-ra pwned me with it :l
P air is really strong vs mech. carriers are pretty strong too
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I've been mixing in a few tanks to go with my bio/viking combo and it's been working out rather nicely due to the massive range on tanks and the terrible AI that makes units keep turning to attack while you yell at them to run away. However 8 out of 10 of my TvP end with my first bio push with 2ghost/12marines/2marauders/stim finish just about the time you get to his base and leaves you with about 20-30 seconds to do dmg before first collossus which is generally enough time to clean out their main force and get into a decent position to fight the collossus as it spawns.
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@ Predy :
1: Doesn't show anything, just a bad wallin and a great defense 
2: I think some Marines to burn through the Immortal-Shields is Key here, at least if you see the count of them - like you did.
3: The Marinecount helped you to defenend here - They also prevented him from more air I would say.
On the other hand he stoped his push, guess the thought your siege is rdy, what it was not -> I would get it faster imho. Great Oldshoolplay
4: Air :x
5: Now I know why you try to be offensiv with a few units ;-) the 2nd move was pretty sneaky :D
6: No time to watch it now :-/
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The nice thing about upgraded Helions is that you don't need a ridiculous amount to overpower Zealots. You can build up 6-10 or so and really destroy their zeals that speed into your army first. They cost the same amount in terms of minerals and food, so you can build accordingly.
The trick to surviving the early game is in your tank placement. You can find spots to place them where Immortals and Stalkers just can't reach them without being horribly out of position. This is what makes the early Terran defense work. Don't put them on the edge of the cliff - set them back a little ways so they still cover the area, but cannot be fired at.
Finally, your midgame mech build should have a ton of extra minerals. They can be spent on more Helions if he's going ground, or Marines if you see him bringing in Void Rays and Phoenixes. Having a few Vikings is always a good idea too give you some better distance on your anti-air. That range of 9 does a great job of keeping harassing jerks away.
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Also, how do Thor's hold up against P air?
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Maybe if Blizzard were to adjust how the vikings are built, say to coming from the factory and default on the ground but still able to transform of course. This would give factory some much needed love while the Starport is already a little crowded. (5 units can be built from Starport, 3 from factory 4 from rax)
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Bio , ghost, viking seems to be the strongest option by far. It is mineral heavy which is good as ghosts and vikings will take alot of gas. Mech and ghosts don´t go well together.
Also bio is good as it negates the immortal which is a otherwise great unit, it does make the colossus stronger but that´s gas heavy and countered nicely by vikings which in turn force the protoss down a path they dont want to ie making stalkers.
Mech can be countered pretty well by toss with immortals, zealot charge, blink, carriers etc and is less mobile and more gas heavy then bio. Bio´s only counters are colossi and templar which are both gas and tech heavy and countered well by vikings and ghosts. Vikings also give you air dominance which can be used to harass as well. Bio is just superior.
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I feel like Bio is the way to go. You just need really good control and awareness when you actually push out. If he has HTs you need Ghosts, if he has Colossus I'd spend almost all your gas on Vikings
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On March 13 2010 09:46 Markwerf wrote:
Bio , ghost, viking seems to be the strongest option by far. It is mineral heavy which is good as ghosts and vikings will take alot of gas. Mech and ghosts don´t go well together.
Also bio is good as it negates the immortal which is a otherwise great unit, it does make the colossus stronger but that´s gas heavy and countered nicely by vikings which in turn force the protoss down a path they dont want to ie making stalkers.
Mech can be countered pretty well by toss with immortals, zealot charge, blink, carriers etc and is less mobile and more gas heavy then bio. Bio´s only counters are colossi and templar which are both gas and tech heavy and countered well by vikings and ghosts. Vikings also give you air dominance which can be used to harass as well. Bio is just superior.
This is so wrong it makes me want to cry. Immortals are the only "counter" to mech and they don't really counter it so much as hold their own. Chargelots melt so fast to hellions it's incredible, and tanks do full damage to them in siege now which means they are almost useless except as meatshields. Blink is worthless, completely. It doesn't prevent your stalkers from dying instantly and also doing no damage because stalkers really do suck. Carriers aren't a counter, they're a different style of play. You need to build starports and a fleet beacon for carriers, then not die to a push. Terran can make vikings which do just fine vs carriers, and thors do ok as well.
Mech is gas heavy aside from the reactor built 100 mineral killing machines called hellions. If you have too many minerals, build more hellions. If you aren't making tons of them all the time, you're playing wrong.
The one thing I'll give you is that mech is immobile. You really need to utilize hellions and dropships and even nukes to keep protoss on the defensive. Hellions are the best harass unit in the game with regards to killing workers imo.
Stalker/collosus does fine as a midgame army vs bio. In fact zealots aren't even useful until you have charge anyways, so you should pretty much be making stalker/collosus and maybe a couple immortals and sentries. I have never lost to a bio army in midgame for a reason, it's bad.
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The best part of meching vs P is how many damage upgraded Hellions you get to play around with for worker harassment
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Has anyone tried mass hellion + thor/ghost?
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Personally I only like Hellions as a mech unit vs P. I hate tanks due to their immobility, the gas the take up and the fact that they don't easily solve any of my problems. My problems are generally Storm, Colossus and Charge Zeals. In mass yes Tanks are great, but getting that mass is very tough since taking a third base is virtually impossible on nearly all the maps + by then your inviting your opponent to just make Carriers. I dislike Thors cause they are slow and bulky and also gas heavy and super easily countered by... everything other than Stalkers.
Hellions on the other hand are difficult for Protoss to counter since all their Gateway units lose to them -- Stalkers included. Immortals are a soft counter and Colossus are a hard counter but come out much later (He has to spend a lot of gas on early units or he just dies to hellions, so the Colossus should be fairly late) and are easily answered with the bazillion Vikings you can afford since your army is Mineral heavy.
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From what I've seen of your games, Cow, you usually build a bunch of hellions before transitioning into MMM/Medivac/Viking. Why do you bother with the bio at all rather than simply building more Hellions, Ghosts, Vikings and possibly Ravens?
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On March 13 2010 10:50 CowGoMoo wrote:
Personally I only like Hellions as a mech unit vs P. I hate tanks due to their immobility, the gas the take up and the fact that they don't easily solve any of my problems. My problems are generally Storm, Colossus and Charge Zeals. In mass yes Tanks are great, but getting that mass is very tough since taking a third base is virtually impossible on nearly all the maps + by then your inviting your opponent to just make Carriers. I dislike Thors cause they are slow and bulky and also gas heavy and super easily countered by... everything other than Stalkers.
Hellions on the other hand are difficult for Protoss to counter since all their Gateway units lose to them -- Stalkers included. Immortals are a soft counter and Colossus are a hard counter but come out much later (He has to spend a lot of gas on early units or he just dies to hellions, so the Colossus should be fairly late) and are easily answered with the bazillion Vikings you can afford since your army is Mineral heavy.
I usually open with a hellion drop since I find players are totally unaware of how to defend it, and I can outmicro almost anybody with those death buggies. However then I transition into tanks and usually end up taking my expo unless they're going for an allin counter (which they often do). I find about 6 tanks is the good critical amount to where you really start to slaughter everything, but by themselves they don't do too much early, you gotta have hellions or marines or something else there.
Personally I think bio/ghost/viking is probably possible, but it's only a matter of time before people learn how to play vs it. I also forsee a major stalker buff in the future for protoss and perhaps that will make it less effective. I wonder how well archons do vs bio armies though, mixed with speedzeals and HTs maybe that's safer and more effective? I'd like to play some games vs you just to see how my style holds up. I haven't had that pleasure yet =D
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archons aren´t viable because of ghosts really.
As for the decision between mech and bio as in which do you upgrade it comes down to what you prefer as your core army I guess, hellions or marine/marauder. Personally i prefer marine/marauder as it just feels stronger in general then massing mech, most because siege tanks are not as great as they used to be. They take way more careful positioning and are very vulnerable to stalkers and immortals.
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I don't think you realize how careful you had to be with tanks in TvP in sc1. This feels much easier cause my unsieged tanks don't suck horribly. I do agree, for the time being it probably comes down to style.
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Yeah floop, I found it funny that an unsieged tank does 24~ dps to armored targets, vs. a sieged tank only doing 20 (but that number doesn't include splash).
They aren't completely awful unsieged at this point against the right targets.
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On March 13 2010 13:21 RPGabe wrote:
Yeah floop, I found it funny that an unsieged tank does 24~ dps to armored targets, vs. a sieged tank only doing 20 (but that number doesn't include splash).
They aren't completely awful unsieged at this point against the right targets.
splash makes a HUGE diff though..with a large number of tanks doing splash..thts a lot of extra dmg.
but yah there isn't a "best" build bio, mech, biomech...it is rly just personal preference...at least rite now. it will also depend ALOT on the map. being able to secure that 3rd expansion is pretty important for mech, as well as good positions that tanks would be able to defend.. bw had a lot of well designed maps (well the korean designed ones haha), and blizzard has learned a lot. but the metagame for sc2 will be greatly affected by the types of maps made.
bio is a lot more mobile, while i think mech is stronger in terms of power wen massed up and wen u have the resources and have the position.
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apparently blizz is right now working on buffing mech. hopefully more mech in tvp and tvt then! just like in bw and i agree, on maps where it's hard to get 3rd like desert oasis or blistering sands in hard to go pure mech. but on maps like kulas ravine or LT it's pretty much viable i think. but be aware of the bloody P air
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On March 13 2010 19:49 PredY wrote:apparently blizz is right now working on buffing mech. hopefully more mech in tvp and tvt then! just like in bw and i agree, on maps where it's hard to get 3rd like desert oasis or blistering sands in hard to go pure mech. but on maps like kulas ravine or LT it's pretty much viable i think. but be aware of the bloody P air
whered u get info bout a buff for mechs?
tried mech today against toss..if they go carriers (scan a lot), start getting vikings, if toss is only just switching tech..go for a timing push rite away before he can get his carriers out and u shud be fine. against void rays, a good number of rines is good enuff (as well as pushing with turrets)
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Q. Great job with Terran. Mech seems weaker and less reliable than a bio build at the moment. Any plans to buff mech?
A. We are looking at Terran mech build now. Actually right now. The balance guys are currently testing some fixes we tried this morning. We will get something to you guys as soon as we can.
That is from the Q&A from yesterday.
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On March 13 2010 21:32 FictionJV wrote:
Q. Great job with Terran. Mech seems weaker and less reliable than a bio build at the moment. Any plans to buff mech?
A. We are looking at Terran mech build now. Actually right now. The balance guys are currently testing some fixes we tried this morning. We will get something to you guys as soon as we can.
That is from the Q&A from yesterday.
link?
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On March 13 2010 21:43 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2010 21:32 FictionJV wrote:
Q. Great job with Terran. Mech seems weaker and less reliable than a bio build at the moment. Any plans to buff mech?
A. We are looking at Terran mech build now. Actually right now. The balance guys are currently testing some fixes we tried this morning. We will get something to you guys as soon as we can.
That is from the Q&A from yesterday.
link?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=115747
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i think MMM + ghost will be crushed earlier or later. if the protoss handles his high templar well u cant emp all in right time and he get 1-2 storms off and all ure marines are dead meat and completely useless, thats why i use Marauder(+medivacs)+Hellion+Ghost at the moment, with some tanks after second expansion or earlier tanks if he goes colossi. so after one expansion i got 2 factorys and 2-3 rax and 1 starport, so its a mixture of bio and mech but i think a good one. Hellions are great in big fights cuz of their splash dmg and 80 hp > 55 hp (from a marine), and they MELT zealots like shit.
i think u wont win in the longrun with marine/marauder if u enter mid/lategame, marines are just too bad then, thats my experience/guess
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On March 14 2010 00:33 OgerAffe wrote:
i think MMM + ghost will be crushed earlier or later. if the protoss handles his high templar well u cant emp all in right time and he get 1-2 storms off and all ure marines are dead meat and completely useless, thats why i use Marauder(+medivacs)+Hellion+Ghost at the moment, with some tanks after second expansion or earlier tanks if he goes colossi. so after one expansion i got 2 factorys and 2-3 rax and 1 starport, so its a mixture of bio and mech but i think a good one. Hellions are great in big fights cuz of their splash dmg and 80 hp > 55 hp (from a marine), and they MELT zealots like shit.
i think u wont win in the longrun with marine/marauder if u enter mid/lategame, marines are just too bad then, thats my experience/guess
completely agree with this althought i think 2 or 3rax tops and then factories is better. because mech + ghosts melts P ground and your marines scare him off from going voidrays. if he goes carriers then go vikings.
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Well i think 3 Fax is enough with ~2Expansions, two with techlab and one with reactor, i prefer adding more raxes because:
- u can fast swtich to marines if u see voidrays/phoenix
- Marauder with medivac are a great meatshield for securing the tanks, u shouldnt forget that! they are better than hellion only. Especially if his immortalcount is high, then a Marauder/hellion/tank mix is better than tank/hellion and tank/thor/hellion imo
and yea ure right, if he goes carrier the only choice is vikings =]
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yeah there is a lot of variations but i'm glad someone has got the same idea as i do, finally
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which upgrades do u get if u go biomech?
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Mix it up. Protoss generally creates an army with a big unit variety - zealot, stalker, sentry, templar, immortal, colossus, phoenix - why would you try to fight that with a limited number of units yourself?
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On March 14 2010 04:01 Louder wrote:
Mix it up. Protoss generally creates an army with a big unit variety - zealot, stalker, sentry, templar, immortal, colossus, phoenix - why would you try to fight that with a limited number of units yourself?
like i said its the upgrades...biomech ur only be able to get upgrades for either bio or mech...protoss just has ground upgrades..so they can get a huge unit mix and still upgrade everything
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well i just upgrade both a bit, starting with engineering bay after 1-1 i go for armory then upgrade both from then on. but i dont go 2 bays and 2 armorys :D thats too much haha.
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On March 14 2010 04:16 jamvng wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2010 04:01 Louder wrote:
Mix it up. Protoss generally creates an army with a big unit variety - zealot, stalker, sentry, templar, immortal, colossus, phoenix - why would you try to fight that with a limited number of units yourself? like i said its the upgrades...biomech ur only be able to get upgrades for either bio or mech...protoss just has ground upgrades..so they can get a huge unit mix and still upgrade everything
Protoss needs three upgrades (one of which is twice as expensive) to fully upgrade ground units. Terran needs only 2 for bio/2 for mech ... I don't see why it's a big deal to forgo one upgrade on either your bio or your mech units (you need the armory either way for +2 bio ups, and ebays are cheap and let you build turrets so you pretty much need them anyway too) and get 3 upgrades total for your ground units. You're still spending less total on upgrades than a P who upgrades ground attack/armor/shields.
Most likely I'd think you'd skip mech armor, since if you're going bio you probably are using them mainly to keep your mech from getting hit in the first place and you won't have tons of Hellions where it might matter.
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well about upgrades, i think you could go 1-1 for your bio, then you need armory, so you go +attack for bio and +attack for mech. 3-1 for bio and 3-0 for mech is good enough
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Perhaps it's time I play some protoss again and see if new terran bio styles are effective. I never lost to a bio player before I switched to terran, but perhaps my style is no longer valid. I don't see how people are still having issues with bio play.
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On March 14 2010 07:52 PredY wrote:hm going biomech is actually really hard :O i always tend to go mech+emp only, but here i added vikings as well. http://www.mediafire.com/?gddmuclzgyncheck it out
Nice game! You could also drop tanks on the buildings next to the xel'nagas. Though only effective if the P doesn't bring collosi, it would be a good way to get some nice early damage before engaging =o
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I've been trying Hellion harass/drop into Tanks, Marauders, and Ghosts lately and it works really well. Like everyone has been saying, good EMPs are absolutely crucial!
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EPT
