|
So, here are my thoughts on the Protoss units in One Goal. I'm Diamond on EU but probably closer to Platinum, so take it for what its worth.
Protoss
Gateway
Zealot: Slightly stronger then in vanilla. Works well overall.
Immortal: The immortal currently feel a bit too hard counter-ry, and coupled with the ability to product 6~ at a time, I feel like they could be too strong against armored unit strategies (mech, roaches, ultras) of the opposing player.
Stalker: Unsure. I only really made them as a last resort against Air.
HT & DT: Nothing much to add. Both work similar to Wings.
Note: The Immortal/Stalker at tier 1.5 doesn't sit too well with me. I feel like the tier 1.5 unit needs to be pretty all round and fill in what the core unit lacks, like the Marauder/Hydralisk. However, right now you've basically got anti armour and anti light choices as soon as the cores finished. Urgh.
Stargate:
Pheonix: Nothing much to add.
Voidray: LOVE IT. Really brilliant.
Oracle: I haven't really used them.
Tempest: I like it's overall design and how it brings positional play to Protoss.
Carrier: Haven't really used them again. I've noticed that interceptors now repair upon returning to the carrier which is awesome. I don't think they have 'leash' micro currently though which would be nice.
Robo:
Observor: !
Sentry: I like where the units at. Time Warp and Forcefield seems to overlap though.
Warp Prism: Nothing to add.
Collosus: Really MUCH better then any other implementation I've seen. I was never really happy with the horizontal aoe in Wings, it seemed really lackluster compared with Reaver aoe.
Notes: I still have reservations about having a unit like the collosus in the game. Having protoss aoe in the form of a pseudo air unit which has the advantages and disadvantages of such seems to promote too much snowballing to me. Either you have enough vikings or you don't. =/
Suggestions/Ideas
*Give the Immortal weak/short range/anti armoured AA?
*Move the Stalker up to Twilight and give it more a more harassment role. Perhaps being able to blink up cliffs without vision, etc?
*Remove shields entirely from immortals and give them a shield upgrade which includes hardened?
*Give phoenix 2 range over Mutas but equalise/slow movement speed so one can't run the other down?
*Remove Queen AA, retain the ground attack and give Hydras AA before range? So Queens can still be an early defense against hellions but won't be able to defense against everything.
Okay, hopefully some of that was useful to you guys! I'll be in the channel if you want to play some more games. 
|
where can i read a full changelog of this as compared to normal sc2?
|
On February 18 2013 03:15 eX_ploit wrote:
where can i read a full changelog of this as compared to normal sc2?
The second post in the thread has all the changes a ways into it, under some spoiler tags (one section for each race)
On February 18 2013 01:28 Striding Strider wrote:Suggestions/Ideas *Give the Immortal weak/short range/anti armoured AA? *Move the Stalker up to Twilight and give it more a more harassment role. Perhaps being able to blink up cliffs without vision, etc? *Remove shields entirely from immortals and give them a shield upgrade which includes hardened? *Give phoenix 2 range over Mutas but equalise/slow movement speed so one can't run the other down? Okay, hopefully some of that was useful to you guys! I'll be in the channel if you want to play some more games.
You would have loved our pre-patch immortal/stalker relationship. Pretty much all of that, I think.
On the phoenix, it's ability to outrun the mutalisk is part of the unit itself, and we sort of like the dynamic. It also has an upgrade at Fleet Beacon that gives it +2 range.
|
Here is a summary of Balance patch one and the reasons why we changed what we changed.
Protoss
-Warp Gate no longer requires Twilight to research
-Research time increased to 160 from 120. (Cost and effects remain unchanged.)
Protoss numbers were lagging behind the other two races in both unit production and flexability. We have reverted Warp Gate back to Cybercore tech but have not reverted its cost or the dynamic between Gate Ways and Warp Gates. This allows for strong, but not sustainable timing attacks. With the new Stalker range upgrade to compete for time in the early game, Players now have a strong choice to support macro, or timing attack based strategies.
Immortal
-Cost increased to 150/100 from 150/75.
-Increased build time to 45 from 40.
-Supply increased to 3 from 2.
-Speed upgrade removed.
-Base speed increased to 2.5 from 2.25
-Immortals can no longer shoot air.
-Damage increased to 20+10 to Armored from 15+10 to Armored.
-Immortals are now full sized again.
The previous iteration of the Immortal succeeded in accomplishing what OneGoal wanted: a strong core army. Unfortunately, the Immortal was the only optimal thing to build (with the occasional exception of chargelots. The Stalker was left by the wayside and the Zealot was marginalized. Further, The Immortal felt like it was 70% Dragoon, 30% Immortal, and while some folks felt it was cool (including us). It just stepped on too many unit's toes and diluted the Identity of the unit.
The Immortal is now strong but costly, and not really a hard counter unit (It has a 50% damage bonus to armored rather than the Dragoon's 100% damage bonus to "armored" or the WoL immortal's whooping 150% damage bonus to armored.)
Sentry
-Time Warp cost reduced to 75 from 125
-Time Warp AoE reduced to 2.5 from 3.
-Cast Range increased to 8 from 6.
Time Warp at 125 energy was really really powerful, but was hard to manage.t took forever to build up the energy and prevented its use as a powerful defense oriented spell (unlike forcefield which is more offensive in nature). We are trying Time Warp at 75 with a smaller aoe.
Stalker
-Stalker no longer requires Twilight Council
-HP increased 60/80 from 50/80.
-Damage changed to 14 from 10+6 to light.
-Range decreased to 6 from 7.
-Shakuran Accelerator research added to cybercore (+1 range) 100/100/80.
After months of testing and tweaking, the Stalker has proven to be pretty lame as a dedicated harass unit. The fragility and anti-light damage made it play such a niche role that you almost never saw it, given that the Immortal was better AA despite the 5 range. So we are testing it out as a more mobile, high range/damage core unit that lacks the raw durability and damage of the Immortal. The Stalker is now cost for cost and supply for supply one of the strongest ranged attackers in the game combining unprecedented mobility, damage and range. It is at last a unit that can support the Zealot.
Zealot
-Increased shields to 60 from 50.
With the Stalker losing net 20 HP (from WoL) to fufill its role and the Immortal becoming as costly and supply intensive as a WoL tank, the Zealot needed more durability to make up the difference. Additionally, 160 Zealots are substantially tougher than their WoL counterparts. It is fantastic to see a group of 4 Zealots go up to a group of 6 hydras and tear them to pieces. The Zealot feels strong again. We had wanted to do this for a very long time, but did not go through with the change for fear of destroying the viability of Bio. However, with the changes to warp gate, and a cheap and easy to produce Widow Mine, 160 Hp seems to be fine.
Mothership Core
-Increased base move speed to 2 from 1.88
Protoss needed more consistent scouting vs Zerg and Protoss to stabilze the match up, this was a simple and elegant solution.
Tempest
-Increased attack delay to 4.5 from 4.
-Decreased Health to 250/150 from 300/150.
Like HotS, Tempests can reach a critical mass where they decimate everything before it retaliate. It was a bit worse in OneGoal due to the substantial bonus vs armor. So we have decreased its attackspeed significantly, allowing spells like PDD and "Lay Volitile Clutch" to swing the battle in the other race's favor. Since they are no longer a capital ship, they shouldn't have the HP of one. Reducing their health allows them to be picked off a bit easier, making positioning more important.
Zerg
Hydralisk
-Removed damage bonus to armor.
Hydras were simply dealing too much damage to armored units for their cost and supply. This combined with the economic benefits of having a 1 supply core army unit made Zerg a bit too strong overhall. Making the Hydralisk a little more manageable
Roach
-Increased damage to 18 from 16.
The roach wasn't quite worth its tech and increased model/collission size. We wanted to increase its effectiveness, but didn't want to upset the current unit relationship too much (as increasing HP would have done.)
Swam Host
-Decreased Morph time to 17 seconds from 34 seconds.
Deep Warren
-Decreased morph time to 30 seconds from 60 seconds.
Swarm Hosts simply came out too late to exersize the ground dominance they need to. You were better off making Hydralisks and support casters. Initial testing shows Swarm Host timings are now possible, we will see if this is too much or too little.
Terran
Diamondback
-Increased base damage to 35 from 30.
-Reduced bonus to armored to 10 from 15.
Diamondbacks are absurdly strong versus Armored air units like Tempests, Carriers and Battle Cruisers, and they are intended to be. However, they are a little bit lacking versus Mutalisks, making Terran mech vulnerable to the (now core) Zerg flier. To preserve the viability of Mech in TvZ, we are increasing its base damage while keeping its anti-armor total the same, allowing them to kill mutalisks in 1 fewer shots, this in conjunction with Turrets should allow Terrans to survive Mutalisk attacks provided they have solid scouting.
Banshee
Supply reduced to 2 from 3.
Speed increased to 3 from 2.75.
With the advent of Hellbats and Emergency Thrusters on the Medivac, the Banshee is simply an inferior investment. We are looking to allow it to easily kite non-stimmed marines and out run non-blink Stalkers as well as making it cost less supply, making it a powerful surgical strike unit in the mid to late game. If you have the money for it, the Banshee can become an expensive, but potent backbone to an air based army.
Hellbat
-Hellbats are no longer biological.
-Decreased Health to 120 from 135.
HotS shows how toxic Hellbat drops are and how strong a counter Hellbats are to Zerglings and Zealots, and well, anything that gets close to them. This is particularly nasty with the inclusion of medium armor, meaning that they get bonus damage to a wider number of targets. Basically, Hellbats were stepping the strengths of bio drops by providing both sustainability and durability along with high damage to everything. To remedy this, Hellbats have less health and can't be healed by medivacs. This allows Hellbat drops to deal a ton of damage, but fast reaction time with a handful of units can snipe these units. We were worried about this change making mech comps weaker. but with 1 supply Widow Mines and 2 supply Tanks, mech is still plenty viable.
|
Tried protoss out. Some cool ideas.
- Immortal still seems too strong for warpin. 4 gate immortal seems to wreck just about anything at that timing. Cost should go up to at least 200.
Having immortal in gateway and sentry in robo is cool, though, I've been thinking about that for a while. It makes sense, and can solve several problems protoss have (force field counterplay, weakness to marauders/roaches early)
- Force field and time warp do seem to overlap, as others have said. I would leave one on the mothership core-- consider putting force field here for early game rush defense without massability.
- Hallucinate is cool but OP still. Warping in free archons in zerg mineral line is way too good, even with reduced damage. 4 oracles can keep up constant, brutal harass. Neat, but imbalanced.
- Don't really get/like the void ray changes. not sure what their role is, and not having a basic attack was weird. They should really be protoss' "capital ship killer", not another ground aoe... I think putting tempest in the ground seige/aoe role would make more sense.
Cool work overall, I'd be interested in staying involved in this project.
|
I don't understand what this is. is it WoL or HotS?
|
On February 19 2013 03:22 llIH wrote:
I don't understand what this is. is it WoL or HotS?
Currently in the Wings of Liberty Arcade
|
Hey OneGoal!
So im following your changes and I just want to once again say I hate the new armor type (medium).
That being said, I went to some archive searching to find this relic which I believe may hopefully help you in some small way:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014488/The-Game-Design-of-STARCRAFT
This is a video of D Browder explaining design issues in SC2 and a little about HOTS, made in 2011 after Blizz announcement of HOTS. A lot of it we know already (he speaks about degrees of success), and you guys seem to have a good grasp on design, however I figure its interested nonetheless to see where Blizz design talks got them. Some stuff is very interesting particularly unit relationships being taken into consideration when talking about upgrades. This is something I feel you did not address; rather you went about added upgrades for balance purposes to keep beginning units in the lategame game.
Extract what you will from this, but I strongly encourage your team to watch the full video A-Z and I hope this small contribution of mine helps the community and OneGoal.
I made a post on Bnet here about it:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4427666340?page=1#new-post
Thanks!
|
Thank you, I'll look over it.
|
Hi Onegoal team, just want to say I love the mod, wish there were more games commentated as they're great to watch and in my opinion more interesting than WoL or HotS games.
One thing I noticed in protoss games is that the change to warpgate mechanics doesn't seem to stop people from just shifting to warpgate and never returning to gateway.
I was wondering if, since the Immortal and Stalker both come from gateway/warpgate at the moment, would it make sense to make it so the Immortal only comes from the gateway and not the warpgate and the Stalker only comes from the warpgate and not the gateway?
This would not only prevent the incredibly powerful immortal being warped in but would also encourage the switching from gateway to warpgate and back again.
|
We have considered it! The issue is that it breaks the rules and makes it less intuitive. As for morphing gateways from warp gates. Yes, eventually most folks just turn their stuff into Warp Gates. But frankly, that is probably ok given that it is something that feels like a powerful late game mechanic anyways. The change to warp gate allows for more diverse openings and mid game strats, which is why we like it currently.
|
If an immortal warp gate timing attack is such a problem, you could put in the dragoon as a less powerful and cheaper option at the gateway, and then have it morph to immortal for 30 seconds and an extra cost. Numbers would need to be tweaked ofc.
Overall, I really like what your doing with Protoss, terra and Zerg not so much, but that is a story for a different time.
|
I spoke with ItWhoSpeaks about this on bnet last night but I wanted to put it out there for broader debate. I think that charge is an anti-micro ability - you just kind of a-move zealots and they go flying at the enemy army. I think the most interesting micro involving zealots always has involved that conflict between slow zerglings and slow zealots in the early game PvZ. What do you all think about replacing charge with a flat speed increase (more so on top of the speed increase inherent in charge)? Obviously it would require other balancing changes as well but I think it would be a really good change for zealot micro and being able to control zealot offensives.
|
is there any good streams or something i would like to watch the game because i am not able to play it right now.. ?
|
On February 25 2013 01:20 hypnobean wrote:
I spoke with ItWhoSpeaks about this on bnet last night but I wanted to put it out there for broader debate. I think that charge is an anti-micro ability - you just kind of a-move zealots and they go flying at the enemy army. I think the most interesting micro involving zealots always has involved that conflict between slow zerglings and slow zealots in the early game PvZ. What do you all think about replacing charge with a flat speed increase (more so on top of the speed increase inherent in charge)? Obviously it would require other balancing changes as well but I think it would be a really good change for zealot micro and being able to control zealot offensives.
I think you have to look at a lot of Blizzard's design decisions in SC2 with a heavy emphasis on unit differentiation between the races. So for instance I think the reason hydras aren't a 1 supply, early game, ranged unit that shoots air and ground... is because that's essentially a marine. So they get shifted up the tech tree and made into the expensive glass cannon that we know and "love".
So to your point I think a big reason that zealots have charge instead of a flat speed upgrade is to differentiate them from zerglings.. I mean think about it, tier 1, melee, speed upgrade.. they would end up looking very similar. Now obviously zealots are tankier, more supply yadda yadda yadda.. but my guess is that this is a big part of the reason things are as they are. It's also a reason (assuming this philosophy is something Blizzard are still attached to.. and obviously assuming I've correctly identified the situation in the first place which is always debatable :D) that any change to this (as with the hydra changes) are perhaps unlikely for Blizzard to ever take on board.
That said however, and again as with hydras, just because Blizzard might be set against it doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad idea. One thing I would question is how much extra interesting micro you'd actually get with zealot speed.. I mean by the time you've gone twilight and researched it you're probably dealing with pretty large amounts of zealots in any given engagement and at that point would microing them individually be any more rewarding than just having charge anyway? I'm not that familiar with broodwar so I'd be interested to hear how it worked there and whether or not we feel that's even relevant given the differences in damage levels/health etc in SC2.
So this is a pretty rambling post, but basically what I'm trying to get at is that for this to be a good change the benefit of increased/more interesting micro/control added needs to be enough to make up for the decreased unit differentiation. and I have no idea whether it would or not :D
|
Well I think there are a few situations I could theorize where the speed might be more interesting than charge. First, approaching entrenched positions is more complicated when a no-micro skill like charge closes the distance automatically to, for example, siege tanks. Terran is already forced to position in a way to protect its siege tanks from powerful attacking Protoss armies, and fast zealots will still be able to close distances effectively, but Protoss players will be forced to pre-position better and to consider the approach more carefully.
I also think that charge is just obnoxious against bio based TvP. Terran is forced to micro heavily and kite charge zealots, and Protoss can rely mostly on the ability. I think it would incentivize more creative unit position and attacks in bio TvP (flanks, surrounds, etc.) Charge makes it too easy.
Another situation to consider is in PvZ. With the relative de-emphasis of the sentry, and the roach pushed to lair-tech as a higher tech, beefier unit, heavier zealot play in PvZ should be common. One way Zerg can respond to this kind of play, especially when aiming for a mutalisk based harassment strategy, is through banelings. Charge is useless against banelings, while speed zealots could be split much as marines are split in TvZ against banelings. This creates interesting micro opportunities for Protoss and unit interactions that are fun to watch.
I don't know much about PvP so I won't comment (since I play Z and T). Any thoughts?
|
You raise some compelling points. I also think that charge kinda strips the protoss player of control in some situations which is pretty obnoxious when zealots randomly charge at a sub-optimal target or whatever.
Something that also might be a plus point is that as there's a balance in Onegoal between gateway/warpgate a speed upgrade for zealots would be a strategic boost to gateway use into the midgame as it would decrease reinforcement time when streaming across the map from gateways.. but have a far smaller impact on warpgate use as zealots tend to get warped in very close to where they need to be anyway. I'm not sure if this is inherently good or bad.. I mean I like the idea as I like the idea of gateway/warpgate being a meaningful choice for as long as possible.. but I guess it depends on balance between the two whether this particular change is desirable or not.
Speed would also in general allow protoss to be a little bit more mobile around the map and maybe try for some zealot runbys/multi-pronged harass when they're not using warp prism/pylons for warpins.
Hmmm yeah so anyway I guess I'm sold for what that's worth :D
|
Charge does, in fact, increase the base speed of zealots. Brings it from 2.25 (marine speed) to 2.75.
If I remember correctly, charge was built upon the Zealot Leg Enhancement upgrade in BW (which was just a flat speed bonus). I believe charge was then implemented because zealots in BW had trouble closing on ranged units, especially when upgrades and positioning were taken into account (for example, sieged tanks will wiped the board of zealots without accompanying shuttle micro, and large numbers of hydras with a little bit of zergling support shredded zealots). Now in SC2, this problem is much less of a concern, both because everything in general is much faster, and the advent of charge lessens this issue even more.
If you think charge causes control issues with your zealots, keep in mind that the ability is toggled, and if you think it will be an issue (ie, banelings), it can just be turned off.
|
My only issue with this and other projects like it (Starbow, Project M from SSBB) is that it's an elegant way of saying "Hey, thanks for making the game, but you did a shitty job."
|
I should have tried a while back when it was actually discussed but I thought I might as well just put these ideas out there. Here it goes:
Unit: Dark Templar
Design (key word there) Problems: 1) Gimmicky Mechanics 2) Short Life-Expectancy
Intended Solutions:
1) Intrinsic Ability for Unit: Subterfuge.
Subterfuge- Unit does 1.2 times more damage when attacking from the sides and 1.4 times more damage when attacking on the backside of (non light) units or defensive structures.
The unit itself even if one makes it more accessible and decreases the commitment of that unit, the only thing defining the unit (it's cloak) doesn't really give it that capacity to be the shadow assassin it's supposed to be. It's cloak means it can harass unless there's detection. It's cloak doesn't serve much of a purpose, it doesn't create a role, and it doesn't give the player a different feeling when handling them. With subterfuge, a player needs to be minded on how they wish to maximize the effectiveness their DT's (surrounding, flanking, and of course attacking from the rear). Their cloak makes not automatic for a unit to face them and I think may provide a much better flavor to the unit instead of amping it's speed (making it like other units) or making it immune to slows (limiting opponent's counter options). Decreasing their base attack can achieve the balancing issue and further force skill when using the units instead of all-ining with them or recycling them into Arhcons.
2) Feasible Upgrade increasing their Longevity- Abysmal Shrouding
Abysmal Shrouding- grants effects that cause the unit to be detected or uncloaked wear of 30% faster. Decreases all splash damage received by 30.
Longevity should mean the role of that unit shouldn't have to change. With Abysmal Shrouding, Dark Templar access a greater connection to the Void to give extend their light-bending abilities to the space around them. The splash damage resistance (plus effects of the Subterfuge) allows them to better deal with defensive structures (Missile Turrets, Siege Tanks) and even take a hit by a Seeker Missile. The story justification is similar to the Uraj Talisman Upgrade in that not being wholly their allows them to better escape or slip out of AoE situations (like Psionic Storms). With them fairly quickly recovering their stealth status and have a means of dealing with detecting defense structures, they can slip back to the shadows to be used again (via War Prism or Using them for flanking). The upgrade should available at the Dark Shrine to allow the option of either going with more DT's and do a rush/all usual style or invest in a group of re-usable back flanking units.
The hope is to make them have a more consistent use as a harass/back flanker to intersect an opponents base from behind while allowing for skill to be necessary to make the unit fully effective.
(Edited some of my bad grammar and added bold for terms)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
