Here is the break down of races and their respective mechanics. Terran: Fast, high damage low HP bio units (Marines, Marauders, Repers) strong defensive deployable units (Siege Tanks, Mines, Hellbats) Fast, high damage, high utility air to support other two compositions or, if you have the money for it, becomes its own composition.
Can repair
Zerg: Fast, massable low hp units with high dps, heavy emphasis on low range or melee units. Cheap supply units morph into specialized strains trading strengths.
Naturally regenerate HP slowly, move fast on creep.
Protoss: Heavy, durable, high damage, expensive units that are precious and harder to replace in comparison to the other races. No upgrading units like zerg (sans MSC which is a rule breaker.) no deployable units like Terran, instead, power and utility comes from spell casters. Toss has five dedicated spell casters. Terran has 2 and Zerg has 2 and a half. This means that Protoss literally has more spell casting power than the other two races combined.
As for Colossi amoving into you. Our adjustments make it a more positional unit. It has a 3 second cooldown between attacks, and while it does more total damage, most of that damage is mitigatable. This means that to be effective, Colossi have to be microed to do optimal damage as well as survive.
On March 03 2013 03:27 PlumperNickle wrote: What I was trying to say (some what indirectly) was that I don't think the slow-immunity is a good mechanic since it limits the opponent's counter play options (slowing attacks) and limits the compositions available for this enemy. I mean it seems to be a more arbitrary counter rather than an addition to dynamics. I am worried that after balance is done, DTs would merely be hard counters to heavy infestor or marauder compositions. The speed is of course a much easier way to add degrees of success and longevity to the unit, my concern is that with other "speed" or "shifty" units (Stalkers, Helions, Pheonixes, etc) it doesn't give the unit its own flavorful niche. I would be quite interested in what all you've tried. Have you attempted something like a self-"Stasis" for DT's? Giving it a long cool down and making it unable to damage, be damaged, move, be moved, or be detected while in "stasis"; gives them a way to avoid damage temporarily, a way to trick/escape confrontations, and a way for skilled players to set up engagements with armies with detection in their favor. The ability having a time limit and a cool down gives it more counter play options to the opponent (they can leave units where the DT vanish to pick it off, focus fire before the ability activates, or bait it out to make the player waste it) and allowing for slowing units to still be feasible against them. The stasis being cancelled by the player at any point and then going in to cool down allows them to express their ability to properly time and manage encounters. It matches the upgrades cloaking the Dark Shrine effect. A higher beginning speed for DTs and a similar ability to this "self-stasis" may be a good alternative. I didn't want to give a problem without at least to trying to suggest a constructive solution.
EDIT: I corrected some of my deplorable grammar.
No need to appologize! Ideas are what they are. Good ideas are often cobbled together from a bunch of incomplete or bad ideas. It's part of every design process.
The thing is this, if there is detection, DT's lose cost for cost vs almost every unit in the game. Therefore, their strength lies in their ability to avoid direct confrontation, much like the mutalisk. Speed and CC immunity allows DT's to "get away" far more than it allows them to engage. As for flavor/theme, you are dead on the money. The Ultralisk gets to be immune to things as well, and many units have simple speed upgrades. The thing is we want to keep the number of activated abilities down to keep things simple and streamlined. Too many spells on non-casters and the game starts playing like a moba. We tried many cool and nifty mechanics with the DT and they all felt "off." The speed upgrade is simple and potent, allowing DTs to roam the map and slip away when detected (provided their Executor has fast reflexes) This accomplishes the goal without increasing the burden of knowledge.
As for stasis, that treads on the toes of the Mothership's Isolation Pulse ability, which does that effect in a way more involved and interesting manner.
DTs are still melee units though with low health (as Protoss units go) so making them more so able to run away makes them more salvageable, but how have the numbers spoken as to their actual harassment abilities? It's not like a Reaper that is ranged and can ignore large amounts of terrain, a DT still either needs to be deployed by WP or to sneak in through the opponent's base, so I admit I've always been more in favor of giving them an ability counter detection, kinda like Medics from BW. I understand not wanting to load up on active abilities on units, have you tried putting something on the Dark Shrine? I was thinking something like anti-Scan, you cast it over an area and it negates the effects of detection for a small amount of time (sight range is left alone). Fitting in with it's anti-Scan theme, it should not reveal the area you cast it upon.
On March 03 2013 03:27 PlumperNickle wrote: What I was trying to say (some what indirectly) was that I don't think the slow-immunity is a good mechanic since it limits the opponent's counter play options (slowing attacks) and limits the compositions available for this enemy. I mean it seems to be a more arbitrary counter rather than an addition to dynamics. I am worried that after balance is done, DTs would merely be hard counters to heavy infestor or marauder compositions. The speed is of course a much easier way to add degrees of success and longevity to the unit, my concern is that with other "speed" or "shifty" units (Stalkers, Helions, Pheonixes, etc) it doesn't give the unit its own flavorful niche. I would be quite interested in what all you've tried. Have you attempted something like a self-"Stasis" for DT's? Giving it a long cool down and making it unable to damage, be damaged, move, be moved, or be detected while in "stasis"; gives them a way to avoid damage temporarily, a way to trick/escape confrontations, and a way for skilled players to set up engagements with armies with detection in their favor. The ability having a time limit and a cool down gives it more counter play options to the opponent (they can leave units where the DT vanish to pick it off, focus fire before the ability activates, or bait it out to make the player waste it) and allowing for slowing units to still be feasible against them. The stasis being cancelled by the player at any point and then going in to cool down allows them to express their ability to properly time and manage encounters. It matches the upgrades cloaking the Dark Shrine effect. A higher beginning speed for DTs and a similar ability to this "self-stasis" may be a good alternative. I didn't want to give a problem without at least to trying to suggest a constructive solution.
EDIT: I corrected some of my deplorable grammar.
No need to appologize! Ideas are what they are. Good ideas are often cobbled together from a bunch of incomplete or bad ideas. It's part of every design process.
The thing is this, if there is detection, DT's lose cost for cost vs almost every unit in the game. Therefore, their strength lies in their ability to avoid direct confrontation, much like the mutalisk. Speed and CC immunity allows DT's to "get away" far more than it allows them to engage. As for flavor/theme, you are dead on the money. The Ultralisk gets to be immune to things as well, and many units have simple speed upgrades. The thing is we want to keep the number of activated abilities down to keep things simple and streamlined. Too many spells on non-casters and the game starts playing like a moba. We tried many cool and nifty mechanics with the DT and they all felt "off." The speed upgrade is simple and potent, allowing DTs to roam the map and slip away when detected (provided their Executor has fast reflexes) This accomplishes the goal without increasing the burden of knowledge.
As for stasis, that treads on the toes of the Mothership's Isolation Pulse ability, which does that effect in a way more involved and interesting manner.
DTs are still melee units though with low health (as Protoss units go) so making them more so able to run away makes them more salvageable, but how have the numbers spoken as to their actual harassment abilities? It's not like a Reaper that is ranged and can ignore large amounts of terrain, a DT still either needs to be deployed by WP or to sneak in through the opponent's base, so I admit I've always been more in favor of giving them an ability counter detection, kinda like Medics from BW. I understand not wanting to load up on active abilities on units, have you tried putting something on the Dark Shrine? I was thinking something like anti-Scan, you cast it over an area and it negates the effects of detection for a small amount of time (sight range is left alone). Fitting in with it's anti-Scan theme, it should not reveal the area you cast it upon.
Make it work only on static detection areas and I think we may have something ^^ To be honest though I would rather prefer the simple immunity for now, as the anti scan is more ways for the DT's to attack and some retreat options, but the anti-CC is more ways for the DT to escape with some attack options as I see it. I prefer my DT's being able to run away when I want them to.
On March 04 2013 09:27 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: The thing is: Only Terran units deploy.
I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't think it is wise to categorize so strictly. Why should only terran units be deployable? Blizzard has broken so many of their own rules so far for the sake of balance or special implementations, so why should be this written in stone? And by the way you are not even right by your own standard because you forget about the Warp Prism; if that isn't deployable then I don't know what is. Then I guess this rule is not unbreakable either.
Again, no offense meant, I greatly appreciate your work, only discussing.
I haven't played this mod very much at all, but I had a random idea for the DT discussion. What about making them only be revealed after a short delay when exposed to detection? it could be very small, like .5 seconds perhaps - just enough to allow them to kite around the edges of static defenses, but nothing that would make immune to moveable detectors or scans. What do you guys think?
Sick! Thanks very much, really love seeing how the mod's coming along in practice as I can't really play it (as far as I can see only Patch 1.0 is up on the EU server).
Do we have an ETA for how soon Onegoal will be up after HotS release? Is that something you can prep for beforehand and just release straight away or will it take weeks/months of work once the team gets access to the full release of HotS? (I really have very little idea how modding works in practice.. I like to consider it magic!). If nothing else I guess we'll be able to switch between WoL and HotS anyway so the version on WoL will still be there (and with global play hopefully I can come play it on the NA server!).
On March 05 2013 02:09 da_head wrote: Hey guys. IWS and i casted another game yesterday. Enjoy
Sick! Thanks very much, really love seeing how the mod's coming along in practice as I can't really play it (as far as I can see only Patch 1.0 is up on the EU server).
Do we have an ETA for how soon Onegoal will be up after HotS release? Is that something you can prep for beforehand and just release straight away or will it take weeks/months of work once the team gets access to the full release of HotS? (I really have very little idea how modding works in practice.. I like to consider it magic!). If nothing else I guess we'll be able to switch between WoL and HotS anyway so the version on WoL will still be there (and with global play hopefully I can come play it on the NA server!).
They've been working on the hots version alongside the wol version. So it shouldn't take too long to come out.
On March 04 2013 09:27 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: The thing is: Only Terran units deploy.
I completely disagree with this one. Swarmhosts deploy. Lurker were deploying in BW. Deploying isn't a racial mechanic for terran, and you should not restrain yourself in using it for other races.
Swarm hosts and Lurkers are variations on an existing universal: Burrow. Protoss design insists on units that have consistent strengths and weaknesses that are overcome by either micro or synergies with other units. Look at the Reaver, it always hits like a truck (if the damn ai ever works) it is always slow as sin. Whatever a toss unit is, it stays, right down to their inability to heal or repair. They are a race that has everything on standby and deploys their tools from storage as needed. They are a (broken) empire and their mechanics reflect that aloof, scornful mindset.
Mechanically, Protoss have traditionally zoned by just having tough as nails units and terrifying spells like Storm and Maelstrom (lolz). The theme is really clear. Tangle with Protoss in small numbers and you will die. If you swarm them, they break reality with their brains and break you with it. Protoss "tricks" aren't subtle, they are the combined fury and power of a thousand years of training.
No. Burrow and burrowing to start attacking are two completely different things. The first is just that, burrow, but the second is really close to deploying (cloaking aside). And the gameplay implications are close, making it slow, but really strong once deployed.
I agree on protoss design, though. But colossus still don't fit in this. They are those fragile, long legged things you can break easily, but with long range. It doesn't feel protoss to me, really.
Right, Burrow to attack or spawn units is effectively the same as deploying. However, it only works because of the previous groundwork allowed by Burrow. I suppose you could have Zerg units that "root" like their crawler structures, but that still seems like a stretch.
On March 04 2013 09:27 ItWhoSpeaks wrote: The thing is: Only Terran units deploy.
I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't think it is wise to categorize so strictly. Why should only terran units be deployable? Blizzard has broken so many of their own rules so far for the sake of balance or special implementations, so why should be this written in stone? And by the way you are not even right by your own standard because you forget about the Warp Prism; if that isn't deployable then I don't know what is. Then I guess this rule is not unbreakable either.
Again, no offense meant, I greatly appreciate your work, only discussing.
Just because Blizzard breaks their own rules (Hellbat) doesn't mean we should. In some ways (not all), we take racial theme and identity more seriously than Blizzard.
Just thought I would let you guys know. I am expecting a lot of spam and useless questions, so it would be nice if we can put some thought into specific and important questions beforehand. Maybe the modding community can get more exposure there or something.
Going to need to get through the hordes of pointless balance whine and whatnot, though... T_T
Personally, I would like for Blizzard to make a comment on the SC2 economy, as I think that is the biggest issue with the game. That and how HotS has not changed the prevalence of deathballs one bit (though, IMHO the issue with deathballs leads us back to economy, anyway).
On March 05 2013 11:50 FoxyMayhem wrote: Also a heads up, turrets and vikings are the intended answer to muta now, the DB is much better vs armored targets.
Is that the direction you guys are set on? Doesn't it leave mech a little exposed to big muta plays with no factory-built ground to air AoE?.. or should we consider vikings just generally part of mech anyway? I don't have any strong opinion but I'd be really interested if any of you guys wanted to elaborate on how this is working out.
EPT
