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Power Rank 11/10/2008 - Page 43

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
Post a Reply
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blue_arrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1971 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-10 07:03:49
December 10 2008 07:03 GMT
#841


On December 10 2008 14:36 GGQ wrote:
Bisu for #1!

Birthdate: Nov. 3 1989 / Birthplace: Yaesan Korea / Height: 178cm / Weight: 68kg / Blood Type: O / Team: SKTelecom(ex MBC Game Hero) / ID: Bisu[Shield] 김 택용 !


Bisu has been incredible, every game he plays, whatever the situation, you get the feeling that you know Kim Taek Yong will win.

Cept that game vs Tazza but that was just meh
| MLIA | the weather sucks dick here
Aesop
Profile Joined October 2007
Hungary11305 Posts
December 10 2008 09:20 GMT
#842
If I was to move players from current PR for the next one, it would probably be:

Stork down
Bisu up
free down (one or two)
Jaedong down
Jangbi same or up
Flash up (maybe even #2)
BeSt same or one up
Kal same
Fantasy up
fOrGG out or stay 10

in: Maybe FBH, Leta, Calm? At the time being, you can mostly only reward those doing well in PL, and those are among the top performers for their teams.
ModeratorNon veritas sed auctoritas facit legem. | Liquipedia: Don't ask me, I'm retired.
Lukeeze[zR]
Profile Joined February 2006
Switzerland6838 Posts
December 10 2008 09:26 GMT
#843
pusan, firebathero, effort, leta in
jaedong, forgg, kal, jaedong out
Terran & Potato Salad.
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
December 10 2008 09:38 GMT
#844
On December 10 2008 18:26 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
pusan, firebathero, effort, leta in
jaedong, forgg, kal, jaedong out

Jd out 2 times ?! big hater here ?
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
Darth Peter
Profile Joined October 2008
Romania438 Posts
December 10 2008 11:08 GMT
#845
On December 10 2008 18:38 Jaeden wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2008 18:26 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
pusan, firebathero, effort, leta in
jaedong, forgg, kal, jaedong out

Jd out 2 times ?! big hater here ?

He's a moron too,how in earth should Kal be out? He played great.
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
December 10 2008 12:13 GMT
#846
if FS doesn`t hurry up, this PR will hit 1000 posts!
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
Schiller
Profile Joined March 2006
Germany308 Posts
December 10 2008 14:44 GMT
#847
bisu #1

StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
December 10 2008 21:04 GMT
#848
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.

Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.

and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.

So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
December 10 2008 21:05 GMT
#849
and also stork is like 3-4 after the OSL.. shouldnt even be top 5 imo..
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Darth Peter
Profile Joined October 2008
Romania438 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-10 21:59:11
December 10 2008 21:24 GMT
#850
On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.

Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.

and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.

So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!

There is no single player on earth who gone 14 cc in every fucking game he played in for some time. That was his bullshit. I could say that Jaedongs's losses wasn't real losses because if he hadn't committed those stupid mistakes,he could have won. Yeah,Flash is good again,but I wouldn't rank him above Bisu or Stork yet,especially not above Bisu. Flash was always very good in Proleague,but Bisu just won MSL and is good in PL too,just he isn't sent to nearly every ace matches just like Flash is. And Flash didn't really accomplish anything. Most of his victories are against mid class players,he didn't really beat top notch players except for Free and Fantasy,and out of his matches against Hyvaa and GGplay I am still not sure that he is the T v Z beast he used to be. I mean Hyvaa is shit,and GGplay isn't a top zerg anymore either,sure he has good result,but there are a lot better zergs than him,like Effort,Zero,Calm,Yarnc and Jaedong.
abakben
Profile Joined April 2007
United States308 Posts
December 10 2008 21:27 GMT
#851
On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.

Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.

and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.

So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!

What did you smoke while writing this ridiculouse shit? I want the same one
Three big B's (BEST-BISU-BOXER) fighting for SKT1. All we need is a good zerg to dominate the Proleague:)
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
December 10 2008 21:53 GMT
#852
On December 11 2008 06:24 Darth Peter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.

Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.

and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.

So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!

There is no single player on earth who gone 14 cc in every fucking game he played in for some time. That was his bullshit. I could say that Jaedongs's losses wasn't real losses because if he hadn't committed those stupid mistakes,he could have won. Yeah,Flash is good again,but I wouldn't rank him above Bisu or Stork yet,especially not above Bisu. Flash was always very good in Proleague,but Bisu just won MSL and is good in PL too,just he isn't sent to nearly every ace matches just like Flash is. And Flash didn't really accomplish anything. Most of his victories are against mid class players,he didn't really beat top notch players except for Free and Fantasy,and out of his matches against Hyvaa and GGplay I am still not sure that he is the T v Z beast he used to be. I mean Hyvaa is shit,and GGplay isn't a top zerg either,sure he has good result,but there are a lot better zergs than him,like Effort,Zero,Calm,Yarnc and Jaedong.
GGplay is a top zerg lol...
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
Phradamon
Profile Joined January 2008
Romania191 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-10 22:43:27
December 10 2008 22:40 GMT
#853
First proble: i didnt (P)Say december results should not be taken into consideration. You didnt read my post, i guess...
1- PR that apears in december is for November results
2- The results for december should be taken into consideration for the next PR apearing on 2-3 of January.And its is quite logical that results hould be splitted coz round 1 of PL has gone and now is playing the MST and is not fair for certain players to mix results from a (Z)Season in 2 different PR's...

My PR

1. (P)Bisu
2. (T)Flash
3. (P)free
4. (P)Stork
5. (P)JangBi
6. (P)Kal
7. (Z)Jaedong
8. (P)BeSt[HyO]
9. (T)Leta
10. (P)Pusan/(P)Tempest

CNBC- (P)Pusan/(P)Tempest depending on who is on no 10, (Z)YellOw[ArnC], (Z)EffOrt, (T)firebathero, (Z)ZerO, (Z)Calm


I have the ultimate answer, i seek the ultimate question
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
December 10 2008 22:45 GMT
#854
On December 11 2008 07:40 Phradamon wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

First proble: i didnt (P)Say december results should not be taken into consideration. You didnt read my post, i guess...
1- PR that apears in december is for November results
2- The results for december should be taken into consideration for the next PR apearing on 2-3 of January.And its is quite logical that results hould be splitted coz round 1 of PL has gone and now is playing the MST and is not fair for certain players to mix results from a (Z)Season in 2 different PR's...

My PR

1. (P)Bisu
2. (T)Flash
3. free
4. (P)Stork
5. (P)JangBi
6. (P)Kal
7. (Z)Jaedong
8. (P)BeSt[HyO]
9. (T)Leta
10. (P)Pusan/(P)Tempest

CNBC- (P)Pusan/(P)Tempest depending on who is on no 10, (Z)YellOw[ArnC], (Z)EffOrt, (T)firebathero, (Z)ZerO, (Z)Calm



I bet he understood well, and I agree with him, the PR should have the players that are the top 10 atm, not last month.
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
December 10 2008 22:48 GMT
#855
On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.

Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.

and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.

So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!

u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right?
Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month.
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
theonemephisto
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States409 Posts
December 11 2008 02:17 GMT
#856
On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.

Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.

and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.

So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!

u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right?
Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month.

What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed.
Krigstar
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden77 Posts
December 11 2008 02:42 GMT
#857
On December 11 2008 11:17 theonemephisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:
On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.

Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.

and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.

So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!

u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right?
Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month.

What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed.


And the 17 wins was of course pure skill wins that had nothing to do with build order? Why not just stop this bullshit right away and realize that mind games (i.e. build orders) are a part of the game.

Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player. What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about. If you don't understand, tell me where the official line goes for when a build order is luck and not skill?
theonemephisto
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States409 Posts
December 11 2008 02:50 GMT
#858
On December 11 2008 11:42 Krigstar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2008 11:17 theonemephisto wrote:
On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:
On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.

Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.

and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.

So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!

u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right?
Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month.

What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed.


And the 17 wins was of course pure skill wins that had nothing to do with build order? Why not just stop this bullshit right away and realize that mind games (i.e. build orders) are a part of the game.

Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player. What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about. If you don't understand, tell me where the official line goes for when a build order is luck and not skill?

I never said anything about the 17 wins, I was just attempting to clarify what his point was because I think everyone was attacking a misconception. I'm sure that a couple of those 17 wins were straight BO wins (though I won't bother to check).

I don't think mindgames are a significant part of the game except when there's a history between the players or it's a BoX.

Losses ARE valued differently. There's a difference between being dominated in a one-sided rape and fighting a long back and forth game to the end. There's a difference between losing to a great player and losing to a bad one. And there's a difference between losing an evenly matched up game and losing a game where you had no chance from the 30 sec mark.

I'm not trying to say that the losses somehow "don't count" or something, I'm just saying that losses like that say very little to nothing about a players "skill" unless they become a pattern (like Flash from last season). And from what I understand, the PR is fundamentally about how "skilled" a player is, however you define that, and I just don't think that isolated Bo1 straight BO losses contribute much to understanding a players skill.
Krigstar
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden77 Posts
December 11 2008 04:15 GMT
#859
On December 11 2008 11:50 theonemephisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2008 11:42 Krigstar wrote:
On December 11 2008 11:17 theonemephisto wrote:
On December 11 2008 07:48 Jaeden wrote:
On December 11 2008 06:04 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
seriously Bisu or Flash for #1. Bisu for #1 isnt really that crystalclear in my oppinion.

Flash has gone 17-3 his last 20 games, which of only 1 real loss(the one vs Zero)
I say only 1 real loss because the other two were from 14CC vs 9pool and a really really all-in dtproxrush build from horang2 @ byzantium.

and when i say not a real loss, i mean game that any player would have lost.
There is no single player on earth or will ever be who can defend a 9pool when he 14CC's nor can defend a DT prox with that opening flash did, he even scouted the prox with his sick scouting.

So basically 17-1... seriously bonjwa is back!!

u know that it was really his fault for goin 14CC vs 9pool, right?
Every loss counts. Maybe it wouldn`t count if flash had a VERY Important match to practice for ( like a final) but that isn`t the case. I agree that Flash plays well, but he`s got no chance at taking #1 spot this month.

What I think he was trying to say with that is that that loss doesn't really give you much insight into how Flash is playing or his current skill level. Yes, he took a big risk, and he lost out because of it, and the loss counts. But at the same time, the game says nothing about his actual ability (unless it was in a BoX where mindgames come into play). He didn't get outplayed.


And the 17 wins was of course pure skill wins that had nothing to do with build order? Why not just stop this bullshit right away and realize that mind games (i.e. build orders) are a part of the game.

Even if you show the perfect formula on how you calculate what games are luck and whats skill, its irrelevant and no one should give a shit except those who desperately need retarded arguments to defend their favorite player. What I'm saying is that when you start to value losses differently you just made a statement that you have NO clue of that the game is about. If you don't understand, tell me where the official line goes for when a build order is luck and not skill?

I never said anything about the 17 wins, I was just attempting to clarify what his point was because I think everyone was attacking a misconception. I'm sure that a couple of those 17 wins were straight BO wins (though I won't bother to check).

I don't think mindgames are a significant part of the game except when there's a history between the players or it's a BoX.

Losses ARE valued differently. There's a difference between being dominated in a one-sided rape and fighting a long back and forth game to the end. There's a difference between losing to a great player and losing to a bad one. And there's a difference between losing an evenly matched up game and losing a game where you had no chance from the 30 sec mark.

I'm not trying to say that the losses somehow "don't count" or something, I'm just saying that losses like that say very little to nothing about a players "skill" unless they become a pattern (like Flash from last season). And from what I understand, the PR is fundamentally about how "skilled" a player is, however you define that, and I just don't think that isolated Bo1 straight BO losses contribute much to understanding a players skill.


Pretty much all pro-gamers today in all interviews claim that mechanically wise, all A-class gamers are very close to equal now. So if we assume they are right and you believe mind games aren't a significant part of the game then what is? If you think about it for more than 30 seconds you'll realize this is what Starcraft has evolved to.

I know what the PR is and you described it perfectly which is why it has no credibility whatsoever. The main problem is that everyone interprets things differently.

Example:

Scenario: Jaedong rapes Sea like a noob.

Fakesteve makes the list: "With the only loss coming from the strongest zerg right now, which no one can defeat, Sea gets number one."

Sea haters make the list: "Wow, any zerg could kill Sea that game. That was horrible"

Scenario: Flash loses to 9pool on his 14CC.

Flash-fans: "BUILDORDER WIN OMG UNLUCKY!"

zerg fans: "flash is so predictable."

You see my point? I have no problem with the fact the list is built on interpretations, but as soon as someone think they have "the truth" of whether a win is a skillbased win or not they don't understand starcraft.
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
December 11 2008 06:53 GMT
#860
I don't think Sea haters exist, at least not on the TL boards
Together but separate, like oatmeal
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