|
Stephano, because Naniwa shouldn't be considered a foreigner. He is one of the top 10 players in Korea, making Ro8 GSL two season in a row, being knocked out by Mvp and DRG, respectively, which is definitely nothing to be ashamed of. You can't really compare the two - Stephano plays against Koreans who CAME to foreign tournaments, IN foreign tournaments. Naniwa plays against Koreans IN Korea, and Koreans that fought through Code A qualifiers, through Code A, into Code S, and has secured himself a Code S spot for a THIRD straight season - he was given a seed at first, but none can argue with the fact that Nani has EARNED his Code S spot and continues to impress and contend.
Both are capable of winning foreign tournaments, both have done so. But Nani is succeeding at the highest level. If he is considered a foreigner, you have to give it to nani even if you THINK Stephano has more potential - which he might or he might not - because Naniwa has proven himself in Code S against the best of the best on their own turf where they are comfortable. He lives with Koreans, he trains with Koreans, Koreans ASK for his help in preparing for Code S matches, he beats Koreans and only seems to be beaten by those who have GSL Championships under their belts.
The point is, Stephano is a top-tier foreigner, no question. But Naniwa is a top-tier KOREAN. He wins this discussion hands-down and his play does the talking. But his play almost merits disqualifying him from "foreigner" discussion, because he has seemed to transcend that. Stephano is the top foreigner almost by default; this should probably be a Stephano/Nerchio (or whichever other top Zerg foreigner people think is best) discussion, not Stephano vs Naniwa. The vote reflects either sad ignorance on the part of the community, or hopeless bias, or maybe the fact that people realize that it's not fair to judge foreigners in comparison with a consistent Ro8-level GSL player.
|
Stephano would steamroll Nani and he had won much more money and tournament so Stephano is the best foreigner by far.
|
Cruncher.
|
On July 20 2012 05:34 Masvidal wrote:
Stephano, because Naniwa shouldn't be considered a foreigner. He is one of the top 10 players in Korea, making Ro8 GSL two season in a row, being knocked out by Mvp and DRG, respectively, which is definitely nothing to be ashamed of. You can't really compare the two - Stephano plays against Koreans who CAME to foreign tournaments, IN foreign tournaments. Naniwa plays against Koreans IN Korea, and Koreans that fought through Code A qualifiers, through Code A, into Code S, and has secured himself a Code S spot for a THIRD straight season - he was given a seed at first, but none can argue with the fact that Nani has EARNED his Code S spot and continues to impress and contend.
Both are capable of winning foreign tournaments, both have done so. But Nani is succeeding at the highest level. If he is considered a foreigner, you have to give it to nani even if you THINK Stephano has more potential - which he might or he might not - because Naniwa has proven himself in Code S against the best of the best on their own turf where they are comfortable. He lives with Koreans, he trains with Koreans, Koreans ASK for his help in preparing for Code S matches, he beats Koreans and only seems to be beaten by those who have GSL Championships under their belts.
The point is, Stephano is a top-tier foreigner, no question. But Naniwa is a top-tier KOREAN. He wins this discussion hands-down and his play does the talking. But his play almost merits disqualifying him from "foreigner" discussion, because he has seemed to transcend that. Stephano is the top foreigner almost by default; this should probably be a Stephano/Nerchio (or whichever other top Zerg foreigner people think is best) discussion, not Stephano vs Naniwa. The vote reflects either sad ignorance on the part of the community, or hopeless bias, or maybe the fact that people realize that it's not fair to judge foreigners in comparison with a consistent Ro8-level GSL player.
You hit the nail on the head there.
Also, i think people have very different opinions on what makes a great player. Stephano is extremely skilled and ridiculously talented, and that brings him alot of success in these three day tourneys where just sound fundamentals alone can can make a winner. But the best player must imo prove himself in the most prestigeous tournaments in which other players practice specifically to beat you. That's where legends are born, not at MLGs or NASLs. I believe that great players has to have the mind of a champion combined with the skill of a winner. Stephano could be that guy, but he hasnt been put the test yet. Just my two cents.
|
I think nani is the best in then world for preparing for a single opponent in a format like GSL or OSL but when in a weekend lan format like an MLG, NASL, ect. i think Stephano is a better over all player as he seems to be able to always have high result regardless of who he plays or when
|
Naniwa because Stephano hasn't accomplished anything in the GSL yet.
|
In my opinion Stephano is the best foreigner just based on his tournament performances. He has traveled around the world and won IPL3, ESWC, NASL3, and manages to get pretty far in almost all tournaments he plays in, and when he was in Korea for the Blizzard cup, and competed on the korean server, he managed to get top 20 in a few days. That are not just small feats, of course NaNiWa has won a mlg, and placed 2nd at providence, and got to code s ro8 2 times in a row, but just based on all around performance I must say that Stephano is better in my opinion.
|
On July 20 2012 05:34 Masvidal wrote:
Stephano, because Naniwa shouldn't be considered a foreigner. He is one of the top 10 players in Korea, making Ro8 GSL two season in a row, being knocked out by Mvp and DRG, respectively, which is definitely nothing to be ashamed of. You can't really compare the two - Stephano plays against Koreans who CAME to foreign tournaments, IN foreign tournaments. Naniwa plays against Koreans IN Korea, and Koreans that fought through Code A qualifiers, through Code A, into Code S, and has secured himself a Code S spot for a THIRD straight season - he was given a seed at first, but none can argue with the fact that Nani has EARNED his Code S spot and continues to impress and contend.
Both are capable of winning foreign tournaments, both have done so. But Nani is succeeding at the highest level. If he is considered a foreigner, you have to give it to nani even if you THINK Stephano has more potential - which he might or he might not - because Naniwa has proven himself in Code S against the best of the best on their own turf where they are comfortable. He lives with Koreans, he trains with Koreans, Koreans ASK for his help in preparing for Code S matches, he beats Koreans and only seems to be beaten by those who have GSL Championships under their belts.
The point is, Stephano is a top-tier foreigner, no question. But Naniwa is a top-tier KOREAN. He wins this discussion hands-down and his play does the talking. But his play almost merits disqualifying him from "foreigner" discussion, because he has seemed to transcend that. Stephano is the top foreigner almost by default; this should probably be a Stephano/Nerchio (or whichever other top Zerg foreigner people think is best) discussion, not Stephano vs Naniwa. The vote reflects either sad ignorance on the part of the community, or hopeless bias, or maybe the fact that people realize that it's not fair to judge foreigners in comparison with a consistent Ro8-level GSL player.
Wrong, there aren't many koreans that train with Naniwa. He even said it in a interview (i think he only thanked Parting for practicing with him). In that interview he also mentioned that most of his practice comes from ladder. He even isn't that much liked in the korean community, MC even openly admitting his disliking of Naniwa in a gsl interview.
Also, yeah he achieved RO8 2 times, but that was only against 2 races (terran, and protoss). His last games against DRG where alright, but he wasn't all that impressive against zerg in recent months.
Besides, Stephano has been widely praised by the korean community for a long time now (even receiving praise from Jaedong).
|
The main problem with most arguments regarding tournaments is that we overlook Stephano is always reluctant to go to GSL, because he like to work his matchups, not specific players.
|
Dunno who stephano is, so ofc i voted naniwa!!
|
Obviously Naniwa.
Stephano has the potential and is a beast, but you can't compare that with two Ro8 placements in GSL Code S. It's just not on the same level.
|
troll pool my oppinion
I vote Stephano
|
And I think it is a matter of taste to consider preparing for a specific opponent on a specific map or training versus all opponent on all maps better.
In the first case, there is the influence of a coach or advisers involved, the fact that the guy with the best strat is favoured versus the guy with the best macro/micro/gamesense/psychology.
In the second one, there is the question whether people are doing their best or not in this format, and whether the games showed will be of the same level or not.
My thought since it is a poll, is that the ability to make the perfect strat on this particular map is not the main thing to be considered the best. In that case, coaches and very skilled analysts would be considered the best.
I think what matters the most is results (obviously), and games showed under pressure (since I don't praise Inca or Actionjesuzs as much as their results could have suggested for example).
In those two fields I consider that Stephano has an edge over Naniwa.
And jetlag cannot be used here because I don't think that a french suffers significantly less from jetlag than a korean in events in north america.
About GSL being the absolute sh.. While it is the hardest tournament, one of the hardest part is to get there. Winning 4 bo3 and losing 3 bo3/5 to get to ro8 in the GSL like Naniwa did in the season 3 (57% ratio) is impressive but is not far better than winning a big foreign tournament... Doing it twice in a row is even more impressive even if you shouldn't totally forget the 0-10 in code A/Blizzard Cup before that.
Both are really good players and the foreign scene should be proud of them.
|
Unitl i see stephano in ro8 code s, NANIWA
|
Would love to see a show match Or even better a real match with money on the line haha.
|
On July 18 2012 09:37 Iddqdish wrote:
on the fly - Stephano
if there is time to prepare for 1 match - Naniwa
I voted Naniwa because GSL is the hardest tournament at the moment but so much this.
edit
I am swedish thought so I might be biased <.<
|
On July 19 2012 07:30 Irave wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 07:15 Benjamin99 wrote:On July 19 2012 07:12 JeffGoldblum wrote:On July 19 2012 06:37 AndAgain wrote:On July 19 2012 06:18 GoonFFS wrote:
Stephano obviously has to prove himself in code s before he can even come close to naniwa imo Does handily beating code S players many times count for anything? He does it in tournaments that last for 3 or less days. Tournaments in which very specific preparation barely exists. Hmm, didnt he just win NASL where the players had weeks in advance to know who they played against? You post doesnt make sence The only person he knew he was going to play for sure was HerO. So his post makes plenty of sense. Its a different world in the GSL, Give HerO/MC the GSL schedule against Stephano, he will likely lose. Even with current ZvP.
Hero had it at NASL. He had days, even weeks, to prepare for his match against Stephano, while Stephano was barely practicing in front of a computer and only preparing the match in his head.
Result is history now.
Same could be said about MC who knew he had to face either HerO or Stephano, and who was preparing for DRG, another zerg. And those who say MC saved builds for DRG, well, look at his face after his loss and tell me it was the face of a man intentionally hiding builds and thus losing. Besides, he didn't look very different between his matches against DRG and Stephano. DRG was off his game, Stephano was on a roll, that's the difference.
This "preparation" stuff, Stephano builds / timings getting figured, it's stupid. He doesn't have "timings", he is known to adapt on the fly to what the other player does, from one game to another, in a boX. He has when he is at its best a "star sense", he knows what to do, when to do it, and what his opponent is doing with minimal information. He is an extremly talented / instinctive player with excellent mechanics, thus he doesn't need to prepare a lot, though he needs to practice (ie keeping fingers hot, that's why in a tournament he sometimes has a rough start before looking better and better). It pisses ppl off someone can be that talented, but that's the way it is.
So, Stephano.
On a side note, I can't understand why so many ppl praise GSL that much vs NASL / MLG / big foreign WE tournaments. To be able to play against many opponents in a row is less good than being able to prepare well against one opponent ? How is that ? I actually think the contrary, mind you. Matter of opinion, heh.
And seriously, Naniwa didn't even win the whole thing, he lost in Ro8, ie first direct elimination round (against DRG this time, a player who got smashed by MC, who got beaten by you-know-who in NASL, but that's another story  )
The only valid point is the number of great players in GSL. However, if you take into account online qualifications and pool play (and why wouldn't you, if you lose before offline finals, you still can't get the title, heh), there was about as many great players in NASL or IPL Stephano won. So yeah, to me, GSL is a tournament like the others : bigger, more money, a bit more stacked, but nothing THAT special. Sorry !
|
Hm, guys. Naniwa just did a ro8 of gsl, right? he didnt won anything in gsl, except a new seed, right? Is he better than Stephano, because he loses in GSL? Seriously, guys.
Stephano is just so far from other foreigners, admit it. Spending time in Korea to play in a tournament that you never win makes you the best foreigner? Jinro fighting, then.
|
Naniwa no doubt. In all aspects.
|
Stephano > MC > DRG > NaNiWa
Cut out some GSL winning middle men and... Stephano > NaNiWa
It's obviously far harder than that you're placing Stephano in his strongest match up against NaNiWa in his worst (unless his thoughts have changed since).Realistically I'd say they are about about even skill wise but head to head Stephano would win.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
