Who is the best 'foreigner'?

On July 18 2012 09:37 Iddqdish wrote:
on the fly - Stephano
if there is time to prepare for 1 match - Naniwa

On July 18 2012 10:25 kaisertoss wrote:
Why don't you rephrase as who you would want to see play more. Stephano by far.

On July 18 2012 09:37 Iddqdish wrote:
on the fly - Stephano
if there is time to prepare for 1 match - Naniwa

On July 18 2012 10:44 VediVeci wrote:
I don't understand why people act like getting to GSL Ro8 makes Naniwa a better player, when Stephano hasn't played in Code S. If Naniwa had made it in code S and Stephano hadn't then sure, that's something, but given the strength of competition at foreign tournaments these days, it's ridiculous to say that just because you don't play in Code S, you can't be the best foreigner.

On July 18 2012 10:49 nakedsurfer wrote:


EDIT:

I don't understand how winning foreigner events that have 2-3 top level koreans in total at them makes you the best foreigner when the other top guy plays in a League where it's only top level koreans. Your argument can be flipped around.

The overall playing field at Code S is much larger than NASL. The only real rivaling tournament to that would be MLG in which Stephano has never even made group stages(I believe). Therefore I think it's only fair to say since Naniwa is constantly playing the best korean players, in theory, it makes him the better player until Stephano goes there and proves himself as well.

On July 18 2012 10:49 nakedsurfer wrote:
I think it was obvious that Stephano would be winning this poll. I voted for Naniwa because he's competing in the hardest league and made it in the round of 8 twice in a row. That's an extremely hard thing to do and I'm not sure yet if Stephano would be able to achieve that.
It's a shame that the public doesn't really like Naniwa. I think if he was more popular, it'd be a much closer poll.


EDIT:

I don't understand how winning foreigner events that have 2-3 top level koreans in total at them makes you the best foreigner when the other top guy plays in a League where it's only top level koreans. Your argument can be flipped around.

The overall playing field at Code S is much larger than NASL. The only real rivaling tournament to that would be MLG in which Stephano has never even made group stages(I believe). Therefore I think it's only fair to say since Naniwa is constantly playing the best korean players, in theory, it makes him the better player until Stephano goes there and proves himself as well.

Stephano is a multiple tournament champion people will remember him in years to come. Im sorry in 10 years time no one will remember who got ro8 in some Korean tournament

On July 18 2012 11:16 Zenbrez wrote:

Some? Some Korean tournament?

On July 18 2012 10:44 VediVeci wrote:
I don't understand why people act like getting to GSL Ro8 makes Naniwa a better player, when Stephano hasn't played in Code S. If Naniwa had made it in code S and Stephano hadn't then sure, that's something, but given the strength of competition at foreign tournaments these days, it's ridiculous to say that just because you don't play in Code S, you can't be the best foreigner.

On July 18 2012 11:45 The Final Boss wrote:
You've also never seen me play in GSL. How can you discount me, The Final Boss, as secretly being the best foreigner?

On July 18 2012 13:27 Fr0d0 wrote:
There is no point for Stephano to compete in the GSL.
Effort/profit ratio is much better in international tournaments for non-koreans.

On July 18 2012 10:36 zanga wrote:
Why even compare? It makes no sense.

When stephano gets two Code S ro8 in a row we can start comparing apples and apples. It's not easy when youre alone against all the koreans in Seoul and "everyone" are trying to make you lose...

NANIWA > *

(also, Zerg is pretty good at the moment btw, you decide if thats relevant)

On July 18 2012 09:42 OriginalBeast wrote:
Thorzain...

On July 18 2012 12:23 Beorning wrote:
This has to be joke, Stephano rolls jetlagged B team koreans. Naniwa has got round of 8 code S what? twice now?

On July 18 2012 13:38 mahO wrote:


Lol, I mean, I have a great deal of respect for Naniwa as a player, but the matches he played in GSL (seen them all) arent even close to elect him as best foreigner, they werent an amazing showcase of dominance, really faaar from it, they were good decisions and mind games, and also some luck involved, still, amazing player for sure, but... On the other hand, the few confrontations between Stephano and top tier koreans were much more convincing, especially in the potential showed, and reactions, and please dont think I'm saying because I'm french, I'm not even fond of Stephano, and I'm probably the less nationalist french in my country.
For me, Stephano, by far, if he keeps training, you guys will have an answer in the next 3 months, and polls like this one wont be necessary at all. I mean guys like Nestea were saying instantly that Stephano was the best foreigner after results from him at the time, and now he doubled that, they just recognized talent. I dont even imagine what it would be like if Stephano was training with a korean teamhouse schedule...

On July 18 2012 14:13 power-overwhelming wrote:
Naniwa. Stephano's zvp is being hyped here too much. Starcraft has 3 races last time I checked. His zvz and zvt still isn't close to code S level. If he was in GSL I doubt he'd make it out of first group stages. The not-so-famous koreans would still beat him. Only top tier korean he has beaten recently is MC and that is a zvp, not to mention their last series MC won. Naniwa has proven himself in pvp, pvt, and pvz.

The stephano hype is just fueld by foreigner hope/ anti-korean bandwagons that jump for joy at any opportunity a foreigner wins a tourny, and in this case, it's more so stephano than naniwa (since naniwa is glued to GSL)

On July 18 2012 14:21 Benjamin99 wrote:


Seriously once again people are just rabbling without checking the facts. I dont understand this is starcraft 2 we got some of the most amasing stat tools available to us so why not use it so you dont look like a fool when you try to express youself

Stephano´s last 10 ZvT matches in Lan tournament settings

Stephano vs Keen 2-0
Stephano vs Morrow 2-0
Stephano vs Puma 2-0
Stephano vs MKP 1-2
Stephano vs Rain 2-1
Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0
Stephano vs Polt 2-1
Stephano vs Rain 2-0
Stephano vs Heart 2-1
Stephano vs Ryung 2-0

Thats 9 wins 1 lose and most of them are code S. Stephano´s ZvT lvl is as high as any other top zerg. Matter infact the only one he havent beat is MKP. And the last 2 times they meet it has been so close.

On July 18 2012 14:13 power-overwhelming wrote:
Naniwa. Stephano's zvp is being hyped here too much. Starcraft has 3 races last time I checked. His zvz and zvt still isn't close to code S level. If he was in GSL I doubt he'd make it out of first group stages. The not-so-famous koreans would still beat him. Only top tier korean he has beaten recently is MC and that is a zvp, not to mention their last series MC won. Naniwa has proven himself in pvp, pvt, and pvz.

The stephano hype is just fueld by foreigner hope/ anti-korean bandwagons that jump for joy at any opportunity a foreigner wins a tourny, and in this case, it's more so stephano than naniwa (since naniwa is glued to GSL)

On July 18 2012 10:44 VediVeci wrote:
I don't understand why people act like getting to GSL Ro8 makes Naniwa a better player, when Stephano hasn't played in Code S. If Naniwa had made it in code S and Stephano hadn't then sure, that's something, but given the strength of competition at foreign tournaments these days, it's ridiculous to say that just because you don't play in Code S, you can't be the best foreigner.

On July 18 2012 13:41 JJH777 wrote:


It's impossible to look dominant in GSL. The people who won the last 2 MVP and DRG always looked very mortal in pretty much every match. That's why simply getting back to back ro8s is put in such high regard. There are very few players who can do that.

On July 18 2012 14:28 JJH777 wrote:


Most of them are Code S.... Sure if by most you mean 3/10 and he lost to one of those. Also how many of those are post queen buff? ZvT is only just now starting to get balanced again. Any Terrans he beat within a few weeks to a month of that buff are pretty meaningless games.

On July 18 2012 14:39 Zebrapudding wrote:
HuK.. in my opinion he is the foreigner with the most total wins

On July 18 2012 14:42 mahO wrote:


Yeah, obviously, any zerg would take games off MKP, beat Ganzi, Rain, Ryung, Heart, Puma, Keen, Morrow 2-0 for most of them, because of the queen buff, I mean it's obvious that his 28 queens opening made him massacre very very well known and respected GSL players. I mean shit, anyone could do that with a 5 ranged queen right.
How stupid was that coment, seriously, these are the very top korean terrans that travel out of Korea, because they know they have a shot at earning money in the most competitive tournaments on the planet, they are not fucking around, and you still want to disregard the repeated 2-0s, what the hell did Stephano do to you when you were little?

On July 18 2012 14:42 mahO wrote:


Yeah, obviously, any zerg would take games off MKP, beat Ganzi, Rain, Ryung, Heart, Puma, Keen, Morrow 2-0 for most of them, because of the queen buff, I mean it's obvious that his 28 queens opening made him massacre very very well known and respected GSL players. I mean shit, anyone could do that with a 5 ranged queen right.
How stupid was that coment, seriously, these are the very top korean terrans that travel out of Korea, because they know they have a shot at earning money in the most competitive tournaments on the planet, they are not fucking around, and you still want to disregard the repeated 2-0s, what the hell did Stephano do to you when you were little?

On July 18 2012 14:44 Euronyme wrote:


He hasn't been doing well recently. He was even beaten by a fairly unknown 14 year old in his MLG qualifiers.




To be fair it was a pretty huge nerf to Terran in TvZ.
The fact that they travel from korea means that they're jet lagged, which is not a good thing for their play either.

On July 18 2012 14:55 JJH777 wrote:


First of all you did nothing to address the fact that only 3 of those players are Code S and one of those 3 is the player he lost to. Second yes the queen nerf did make that big of a difference. Did you watch any of the GSTL matches before the last few weeks?.... A lot of the absolute best Terrans got manhandled by tons of mediocre zergs. Only in the past few weeks has is started to look normal again.

On July 18 2012 14:56 mahO wrote:


Not to every terran, some were less "helion dependant", some were, sure, but that doesnt mean it can reverse a situation so that a supposed "not GSL caliber Stephano" could rape 50% of the terrans we've seen in Code A & S for the last year, and the other 50%? Well he didnt play them yet...

On July 18 2012 15:02 mahO wrote:


Yes, MKP is a Code S terran, he is also often considered as the best player on the planet when he's on a good day. So yeah, Stephano is such a noob to loose 2-1 to that guy, pfff, why would he even go to Korea seriously?
About GSTL, I guess Life, and Symbol, are mediocre, you keep getting deeper and deeper, yeah it's all because of the queens man... It determins the entire match up at the moment etc etc. Marines should get a +20hp buff etc etc. Keep up the bullshit mate, i'm out, pointless debate with an anti-zerg / anti-Stephano for some reason.

On July 18 2012 09:47 tredogz wrote:
IDRA .. . all the way!

On July 18 2012 15:25 Gexs wrote:
Naniwa makes it to ro8 two times in a row..*claps*

Jinro made it to ro4 two times in a row, what now bitches.

On July 18 2012 14:28 JJH777 wrote:


Most of them are Code S.... Sure if by most you mean 3/10 and he lost to one of those. Also how many of those are post queen buff? ZvT is only just now starting to get balanced again. Any Terrans he beat within a few weeks to a month of that buff are pretty meaningless games.

On July 18 2012 15:43 Benjamin99 wrote:


Funny you are saying its the queen buff in ZvT that helps Stephano when infact that buff havent helped Stephano one bit since he makes the same amount of queens like he did before the patch. Stephano playes a roach style in the early game. he dont play the mass queen style in the early game like every other zerg.

Stephano has played like this since Polt destroyed his normal upgraded lings/infestors style he popularised at Assemply! Stephano had to completly change his early ZvT game and it has payed off ever since.

Again if you and power-overwhelming really wanna have this discussion atleast you could stop being lazy and check stats and facts instead of just spewing nonsense.

I simply dont understand this community sometimes you got so many tools to really find out how good a player is. Matchup stats, map stats, player stat vods etc so use it

And btw its not 3/10 is 5/10 MKP,Ryung,Ganzi,Keen,Polt has all been in code s this season or last season and at the time Stephano meet them they were in Code S.

On July 18 2012 17:30 Fighter wrote:
Can't imagine how so many people are voting for Stephano over Naniwa.

Naniwa didn't JUST lose in the ro8 (can't believe that isn't good enough on it's own...) but he lost to MVP who was THE EVENTUAL CHAMPION. And now he just BARELY loses to DRG, and I have a strong, STRONG feeling that DRG will end up being this seasons champion as well.

On July 18 2012 17:30 Fighter wrote:
Can't imagine how so many people are voting for Stephano over Naniwa.

Naniwa didn't JUST lose in the ro8 (can't believe that isn't good enough on it's own...) but he lost to MVP who was THE EVENTUAL CHAMPION. And now he just BARELY loses to DRG, and I have a strong, STRONG feeling that DRG will end up being this seasons champion as well.

On July 18 2012 20:45 dBdHellRider wrote:
NANIWA

or desRow

On July 18 2012 22:00 Gnomie wrote:
Zerg is just OP atm, so you can't compare them.

On July 18 2012 09:37 Iddqdish wrote:
on the fly - Stephano
if there is time to prepare for 1 match - Naniwa

On July 18 2012 21:54 Ireniicus wrote:
I think one thing is very clear; they are a distance ahead of the next best foreigner where its a toss up between a declining Huk, an inconsistent Thorzain and the up and coming Mana and Nerchio.

On July 19 2012 01:45 s1ege wrote:
it would be Idra if he would get past that mental block/mindset issue. Idra is white DRG without the confidence. I think every single pro gamer agrees that Idra is number one foreigner if he gets past any mental issues that he has and does not tilt after something retarded happens to him in game. He certainly has top mechanics, top game sense, and top micro as a Zerg

On July 19 2012 02:41 ShrykLdr wrote:
We'll be able to compare soon but when I watch naniwa, it seems very even with the Koreans. When I watch stephano, he steamrolls. Its not even close in most of his games. I honestly don't think there is a single protoss in the world who can beat stephano consistently right now and thats a scary though. Who out there can touch him after killing what many people consider to be 2 of the top 3 protoss in the world handily at NASL then 4-0ing alicia who isnt horrible. Gotta hand it to stephano now. Every time people claim his style is figured out, he just says "w/e" and wrecks more toss

On July 19 2012 02:47 dmtran87 wrote:
Let's just put it this way:

Stephano's goal for his pro-sc2 to career is to make money. Which is he quite successful at.

Naniwa's goal is to be the best player in the world (even skipping out in tournaments to practice)... he has not won anything recently.

Because of this, I would say Stephano's the better player of the two. especially considering, as some have pointed out, that Naniwa had the opportunity of having way more practice time in Korea.

On July 19 2012 03:03 TeeTS wrote:

what has the amount of money stephano makes to do with his SC2 skill. I don't see how a fan can welcome this prize-money-hunter attitude. It's understandable, yes, but is it likeable? Naniwa is the more proven player, because he has established himself very high in the toughest competition there is in SC2. Stephano never tried it until now, so I can't see why he should be considered as the best non-korean.

On July 18 2012 09:41 Renfield wrote:
How could anyone vote for Stephano when Naniwa keeps making it super far in the GSL? Until Stephano does something like that all he has proven is he can sporadically beat Koreans.

On July 19 2012 03:54 4ZakeN87 wrote:
I think Stephano but it is kind of close. If Naniwa could show he has overall improved his PvZ I might shift towards Naniwa.

However I think the fact that the poll is called "is Naniwa or Stephano the best foreigner" saying a lot. 90% of all votes think one of these players are the best foreigner as of now. I think Nerchio, Thorzain and Sase could make an argument but still they have a bit left to compete with Naniwa and Stephano for that title.

On July 19 2012 03:19 Fr0d0 wrote:


Money is the best unbiased measure of skill for professionals. They all doing it for money one way or another.

On July 19 2012 04:06 Dyme wrote:
Stephanos vP is really good, his vT is... well he is Zerg, so it's free win, vZ is not really bad, but not impressive.

Naniwa is Protoss. I just don't have much respect for Protosses. It never really feels as 'skilled' watching a Protoss play. Yea, chances are good Protosses are really good. Like LoL pros are probably also good. It just doesn't look impressive ever at all.

On July 19 2012 04:11 Acquire wrote:



Haha wouldn't that make Naniwa better? Opponents are given equal amount of time to prepare against each other yet stephano can't make it to the round of 8 of the most prestigious sc2 tournament.

aka what i am trying to say is Stephano is his weakest link because he doesn't practice as much making his opponent better then him.

On July 18 2012 14:44 Euronyme wrote:


He hasn't been doing well recently. He was even beaten by a fairly unknown 14 year old in his MLG qualifiers.




To be fair it was a pretty huge nerf to Terran in TvZ.
The fact that they travel from korea means that they're jet lagged, which is not a good thing for their play either.

On July 19 2012 05:49 Lineridarz wrote:

Stephano has more "skill" as he is very good at going against random players (not preparing specifically for each opponent) and still crushing them. This is why MVP consistently does badly (for 4-time GSL winning standards) in foreign tournaments, but still crushes in GSL-type tournaments. This does not mean either one of these "types" of players is better than the other, if it came down to a showmatch, Naniwa would pretty handily defeat stephano because he has that experience in preparing for a specific opponent and map.

On July 19 2012 06:18 GoonFFS wrote:
Stephano obviously has to prove himself in code s before he can even come close to naniwa imo

On July 19 2012 06:18 GoonFFS wrote:
Stephano obviously has to prove himself in code s before he can even come close to naniwa imo

On July 19 2012 06:37 AndAgain wrote:


Does handily beating code S players many times count for anything?

On July 18 2012 09:47 tredogz wrote:
IDRA .. . all the way!

On July 19 2012 06:37 AndAgain wrote:


Does handily beating code S players many times count for anything?

On July 19 2012 07:12 JeffGoldblum wrote:


He does it in tournaments that last for 3 or less days. Tournaments in which very specific preparation barely exists.

On July 19 2012 07:15 Benjamin99 wrote:


Hmm, didnt he just win NASL where the players had weeks in advance to know who they played against?

You post doesnt make sence

On July 19 2012 08:19 KalWarkov wrote:


LOL.

Naniwa had pretty "easy" runs if you compare it with code S standards. Stephano on the same brackets? EASY ro8 for him... Stephano is clearly the best foreigner atm...

code S isnt all that counts - not at all.

On July 18 2012 09:37 Iddqdish wrote:
on the fly - Stephano
if there is time to prepare for 1 match - Naniwa

On July 18 2012 09:37 Iddqdish wrote:
on the fly - Stephano
if there is time to prepare for 1 match - Naniwa

On July 19 2012 09:43 KalWarkov wrote:


how about including naniwas dreamhack performance? stephano never dissappoints, in fact he wouldve probably won most tournaments if he wouldnt get wasted before the finals day... like saw that at dreamhack? he slept on a couch at 6 pm next to 2GD... just an example. he IS the best foreigner, whoever says differently overrates code S a bit.
Code S is the hardest tournament - yes. but u can also get far without being the best in that format. as we saw with HuK before...

On July 19 2012 08:55 Fanatic-Templar wrote:


Here's what I got from checking Liquipedia:

Naniwa's "easy" GSL runs:

Puzzle, Ryung, Genius, Supernova, loss to MVP.
Nestea, Creator, Keen, Genius, loss to Dongraegu.

Stephano's "difficult" non-GSL runs from 2012:

NASL: Beastyqt, Hero, MC, Alicia
Dreamhack Summer: Tails (the Swedish one), Mojagy, Puma, Daisy, freizy, Morrow, Huk, Keen, Nerchio, loss to Mana.
MLG Spring Arena: Ryung, Ret, MC, Heart, losses to Violet and Symbol.
Assembly Winter: Mana, NightEnd, Happy (the Russian one), Real, elfi, Puma, loss to Polt.
Red Bull Battlegrounds: Violet, Illusion, Ganzi, Parting, loss to MC.
Lone Star Clash: Hawk, Grubby, White-Ra, Polt.

What would you say are the strongest opponents either defeated? How many easy players did they have to go through?

On July 19 2012 10:32 Benjamin99 wrote:


When you take stats as proff atleats be correct. Seriously

Redbull battleground you left out his win over Squirtle(3-1)

And you leave out MLG Anahaim completly:
Stephano vs Sase 1-2
Stephano vs MKP 1-2
Stephano vs Rain 2-1
Stephano vs JYP 2-0
Stephano vs Ganzi 2-0
Stephano vs Alicia 2-0
Stephano vs Polt 2-1

And not only that you leave out all of Naniwa´s none GSL performance like 2 dreamhack where he got knocked out early and you leave out NASL showdown where Genius dominated him 4-0

Come on is this what TL has become? We just make shit up as we go or dont post the correct info?

On July 19 2012 07:12 JeffGoldblum wrote:


He does it in tournaments that last for 3 or less days. Tournaments in which very specific preparation barely exists.

On July 18 2012 10:33 Drowsy wrote:
Stephano because of race, but its really close.




and definitely need to take this into consideration as well.

On July 19 2012 02:47 dmtran87 wrote:
Let's just put it this way:

Stephano's goal for his pro-sc2 to career is to make money. Which is he quite successful at.

Naniwa's goal is to be the best player in the world (even skipping out in tournaments to practice)... he has not won anything recently.

Because of this, I would say Stephano's the better player of the two. especially considering, as some have pointed out, that Naniwa had the opportunity of having way more practice time in Korea.

On July 19 2012 13:41 wswordsmen wrote:
There is only one legitimate choice for best foreigner. The only person to win an official Korean league that isn't Korean himself.

Grrrr...

It never mentions being SCII.

Poorly worded question aside. In SCII it would have to be Stephano though. He is the only person who consistently beats Koreans during the end of tournaments.

On July 19 2012 14:55 ZerguufOu wrote:
stephano #1. he has the most championships and prize money out of the foreigners plus his zvp is pretty insane. he'll beat naniwa like he does with all other protoss

edit: LOL at 10% others. naniwa and stephano are in a league of their own when it comes to foreigners.

On July 19 2012 16:33 blug wrote:
I think it's pretty unfair people saying that Naniwa is the best foreigner because he's made it to Code S Round of 8 2 times in a row when Stephano has gotten further in foreign tournaments in which Naniwa has also been in.

Naniwa is probably a better preperation player while Stephano is probably better at beating people on the ball.

Also there is much bias in this poll it's rediculous. People like Stephano more, and people hate Naniwa more because he hurt Nesteas feelings in a tournament.

And it will stay like that until Stephano grow some balls to compete in the GSL

On July 18 2012 09:37 Iddqdish wrote:
on the fly - Stephano
if there is time to prepare for 1 match - Naniwa