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On May 20 2010 19:42 SuperArc wrote:
Lee Jae Dong, tonight Calm's micro was on par with JD's, but JD's decision making and builds completely raped the Brain zerg...
Flash and Jaedong - the most perfect players ever to play SC:BW. This final is the greatest thing that could have happened to a SC fan.
I disagree slightly after re-watching the games. Jaedong had superior muta micro in the first game; Calm had superior muta micro in the third set. Let's call it even.
But imho, Jaedong's ling versus ling micro was a level above Calm's in all four games.
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On May 20 2010 22:08 NurseArial wrote:
I don't understand how anyone could think Jaedong beating Flash in a Bo5 while Flash picks up a gold in the OSL AND simultaneously dominates proleague means Flash should drop below him. One Bo5 doesn't prove who is the better player, especially not when the preparation time is disproportionate, Jaedong has a much easier schedule than Flash does.
One bo5 doesn't prove anything, but as of yet JD is 3-0 in Bo5's against Flash. If he makes it 4-0 people will wonder. Flash is more consistent. His fundamentals are stronger than Jaedong's. But fundamentals alone do not the better player make.
I lean towards Flash in this argument, but I understand the opposing viewpoint and don't entirely disagree with it. The past bonjwas have all had rivalries, but they were all able to overcome that wall, whether it was always beating Yellow when it mattered most, or ultimately annihilating July in the OSL finals, the wall has always been broken. Flash needs to break that wall. Otherwise there will always be doubters.
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It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Basically, if  EffOrt beats Flash, all bets are off. The #1, #2, and #3 spots will come down to who looked more unbeatable, between three unbeatable players.
If  Flash beats EffOrt, he will very likely be #1.
If Jaedong beats Flash, he will at least be #2. He could challenge for #1 if he wins decisively.
***
Some other names:
+ Show Spoiler +Aside from  Kal getting wrecked by the alien in the OSL semis, he's actually had quite a solid month. He's still the best protoss, and he'll end up at either #4 or #5. BaBy will tread water and retain a mid-level spot on the rankings. RorO has had an excellent month, he'll take one of the last three spots. Snow is making a compelling case for his first-ever inclusion. The chins? Stats and Classic are playing (and winning) regularly.
Gah, it's so hard to remember how people did this last week with TLPD down.
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On May 21 2010 01:33 tree.hugger wrote:Basically, if EffOrt beats Flash, all bets are off. The #1, #2, and #3 spots will come down to who looked more unbeatable, between three unbeatable players. If Flash beats EffOrt, he will very likely be #1. If Jaedong beats Flash, he will at least be #2. He could challenge for #1 if he wins decisively. *** Some other names: + Show Spoiler +Aside from Kal getting wrecked by the alien in the OSL semis, he's actually had quite a solid month. He's still the best protoss, and he'll end up at either #4 or #5. BaBy will tread water and retain a mid-level spot on the rankings. RorO has had an excellent month, he'll take one of the last three spots. Snow is making a compelling case for his first-ever inclusion. The chins? Stats and Classic are playing (and winning) regularly. Gah, it's so hard to remember how people did this last week with TLPD down.
atleast baby, free, great, mvp and hiya will most likely be gone.
Snow will get a CBNC, cus plexa dont like rushed performances for new players (aka guemchi or baby first time around)
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On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really.
Jaedong is also a completely different player than he was back in 2007 when he couldn't ZvP for shit and lost to Rock of all people. Jaedong had mechanics out the ying yang, but he hadn't yet developed the strategic sense and the timing sense that he's known for today.
Face it: Jaedong has now made 4 Starleague finals in a row (Batoo OSL, Bacchus OSL, NATE MSL and the current Hana Daetoo MSL) and he won 3 of those, including over Flash. And yes, the power outage played a huge role. Flash was going to lose game 3, 90% for certain, but his mindset going into game 4 was ruined and what could have been an epic series turned into a piece of shit event. But nevertheless, it would be nothing short of stupid to deny that Jaedong is a worthy rival and that he's proved again and again and again that he's every bit Flash's equal when they face each other head to head.
It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments.
And by the way, this age argument is meh at best. I won't deny that maturity helps, but fuck, NaDa was 15 when he won his first professional tournament, 16 when he won his first MSL and had just turned 17 when he gold grand slammed, winning OSL, MSL and GhemTV SL all in the same season.
Don't insult great players like GGplay and Stork by saying their wins were meaningless because Flash was "too young" for it to count.
God. I can't believe a Savior fan like me had to advocate Jaedong (not that I dislike Jaedong, but his fans can get pretty fucking retarded at times).
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stop complaining about the power outage already
guess what, flash cheesed jaedong game 4 and completely failed. thats why he lost, and jaedong will prove he's the better player by destroying him again.
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On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really. Jaedong is also a completely different player than he was back in 2007 when he couldn't ZvP for shit and lost to Rock of all people. Jaedong had mechanics out the ying yang, but he hadn't yet developed the strategic sense and the timing sense that he's known for today.
Don't insult great players like GGplay and Stork by saying their wins were meaningless because Flash was "too young" for it to count..
great argument. both Stork AND GGPlay were playing top tier starcraft at that time
GGplay being the pinnacle of macro - zerg and Stork being the PvT god
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After finally being able to watch Flash vs Action I must say I'm abit worried for Flash's tvz condition :/
His early gamesense was really off that game and his early macro was abit off too. It's not like him.
That + losing two games the PL match before makes me wonder.
I hope he brings his A-game to the finals though coz when he's on, no one can touch him!
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I'm personally very worried about who he's gonna use as practise partner after seeing 815's ZvT...
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On May 21 2010 04:33 Holgerius wrote:
I'm personally very worried about who he's gonna use as practise partner after seeing 815's ZvT...
Hey, 815 could be good in practice for all we know!
+ Show Spoiler +
But seriously, I'm sure Flash gets lots of offers for practice partners. After all, what zerg who wants to improve wouldn't want to play the best Terran?
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On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
Do you seriously think that is even remotely comparable?
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On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote:
It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments.
No, it's like Boxer and Yellow, except that Jaedong is the Boxer of this rivalry.
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On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really. Jaedong is also a completely different player than he was back in 2007 when he couldn't ZvP for shit and lost to Rock of all people. Jaedong had mechanics out the ying yang, but he hadn't yet developed the strategic sense and the timing sense that he's known for today. Face it: Jaedong has now made 4 Starleague finals in a row (Batoo OSL, Bacchus OSL, NATE MSL and the current Hana Daetoo MSL) and he won 3 of those, including over Flash. And yes, the power outage played a huge role. Flash was going to lose game 3, 90% for certain, but his mindset going into game 4 was ruined and what could have been an epic series turned into a piece of shit event. But nevertheless, it would be nothing short of stupid to deny that Jaedong is a worthy rival and that he's proved again and again and again that he's every bit Flash's equal when they face each other head to head. It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments. And by the way, this age argument is meh at best. I won't deny that maturity helps, but fuck, NaDa was 15 when he won his first professional tournament, 16 when he won his first MSL and had just turned 17 when he gold grand slammed, winning OSL, MSL and GhemTV SL all in the same season. Don't insult great players like GGplay and Stork by saying their wins were meaningless because Flash was "too young" for it to count. God. I can't believe a Savior fan like me had to advocate Jaedong (not that I dislike Jaedong, but his fans can get pretty fucking retarded at times).
Actually Nada was 17 when he won his first Starleague, and if you don't think ages 17 and 15 is a HUGE difference then I don't know what to tell you. Just look at how many 15/16 year olds have even made MSL/OSl in the past 2 years.
When Flash lost to GGPlay and Stork in bo5's he had JUST turned 15 (he turned 15, played GGPlay the next 2 weeks, then played Stork the week after that). At the start of that OSL he was 14. There's a good chance nobody will ever go that deep in a Starleague at age 14 again, just like it's almost a certainty that no one will ever break Flash's age record for winning a league.
Anyway, I think it's ridiculous that people use games/records from two years ago when comparing players. One year is a huge amount of time in pro SC. Saying JD is 3-0 against Flash in bo5's is highly misleading, given that one of the bo5's happened 27 months ago and the other happened 22 months ago.
I'm not trying to diminish JD's bo5 abilities - he's unquestionably the best ever at bo5's. He's already arguably the greatest player of all time (I'd personally put him over any of the bonjwas, even Nada, at this point but that's a different argument altogether), and will likely cement that title within the next year (unless Flash's rampage continues unchecked, but Flash has a long way to go).
Fact of the matter is, both Jaedong and Flash (especially Flash) are different players now than they were for their first two bo5 encounters. It makes more sense to say JD is 1-0 against Flash in relevant bo5's and Flash is 1-0 against JD in relevant bo3's. Yes the cutoff for "relevant" is somewhat arbitrary, but sometimes you gotta use some common sense.
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On May 21 2010 05:45 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote:
It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments. No, it's like Boxer and Yellow, except that Jaedong is the Boxer of this rivalry.
and yellow made it to both finals in the leagues all the time wheres boxer only managed one.
I don't think this rivalry is very much comparable to any previous rivalry.
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On May 21 2010 05:38 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
Do you seriously think that is even remotely comparable?
It's an extension of the logic that results from a long time ago (a "long time" being some arbitrary number but I think most of us can agree that 2 years is a long time in SC) can be interesting but not really that relevant. A lot of the stats people throw out there are weighted by results from a long time ago, and it's kind of stupid to give equal weight to stuff that happened a long time ago and stuff that happened in the past year or so.
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On May 21 2010 06:14 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 05:45 Mindcrime wrote:On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote:
It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments. No, it's like Boxer and Yellow, except that Jaedong is the Boxer of this rivalry. and yellow made it to both finals in the leagues all the time wheres boxer only managed one. I don't think this rivalry is very much comparable to any previous rivalry.
And where Boxer has 3 more starleague golds than yellow.
that is and was actually the case though
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On May 21 2010 06:20 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 06:14 StylishVODs wrote:On May 21 2010 05:45 Mindcrime wrote:On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote:
It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments. No, it's like Boxer and Yellow, except that Jaedong is the Boxer of this rivalry. and yellow made it to both finals in the leagues all the time wheres boxer only managed one. I don't think this rivalry is very much comparable to any previous rivalry. And where Boxer has 3 more starleague golds than yellow.
yeah i don't see where you're going with this...
read darktreb's post, it makes more sense than this useless analogy.
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Flash v. JD evaluation will depend hugely on the games and the closeness of the series, not just the eventual winner. If Flash 3-0 Effort and loses 3-2 to JD in close games, it would be hard to use that to justify JD > Flash. But a 3-0 loss would be another story entirely.
Let's just see what happens and argue about it afterward.
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not to change the subject but whoever said baby should be removed from the power rank is pretty silly; he's still one of the top proleague players, pretty much fourth there, and has played solidly in every matchup this month, winning all of his games since may first. he should definitely remain on the power rank.
i also think, tree.hugger, that there is no way effort gets to #1 on the current power rank. he simply hasn't been playing well for very long, which is why he's not on it right now. against flash and jaedong, the two best players of all time playing basically at their peak performance, there is no way based on results alone (i.e. unless the demonstrated level of play is simply of a different kind) that effort can be above both of them.
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EPT
