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On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really. Jaedong is also a completely different player than he was back in 2007 when he couldn't ZvP for shit and lost to Rock of all people. Jaedong had mechanics out the ying yang, but he hadn't yet developed the strategic sense and the timing sense that he's known for today. Face it: Jaedong has now made 4 Starleague finals in a row (Batoo OSL, Bacchus OSL, NATE MSL and the current Hana Daetoo MSL) and he won 3 of those, including over Flash. And yes, the power outage played a huge role. Flash was going to lose game 3, 90% for certain, but his mindset going into game 4 was ruined and what could have been an epic series turned into a piece of shit event. But nevertheless, it would be nothing short of stupid to deny that Jaedong is a worthy rival and that he's proved again and again and again that he's every bit Flash's equal when they face each other head to head. It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments. And by the way, this age argument is meh at best. I won't deny that maturity helps, but fuck, NaDa was 15 when he won his first professional tournament, 16 when he won his first MSL and had just turned 17 when he gold grand slammed, winning OSL, MSL and GhemTV SL all in the same season. Don't insult great players like GGplay and Stork by saying their wins were meaningless because Flash was "too young" for it to count. God. I can't believe a Savior fan like me had to advocate Jaedong (not that I dislike Jaedong, but his fans can get pretty fucking retarded at times).
Holy shit dude I'm not insulting GGplay or Stork, I'm pointing out how Flash was far from being a developed player when he suffered a lot of career losses -- the same applies to Jaedong and stuff like his losses to Rock and Casy (Hey that's exactly what I freaking said). Flash is a different player than he was in the past, so comparing losses from 2 years ago to now is completely irrelevant. The same goes for Jaedong.
PS: Flash has also made four finals in a row. It only took him 2 seasons, though.
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Hmm, I just wrote a post in the MSL interview thread, which would probably be better suited for PR thread instead, so I will leave it here as well (without the rather emotional opening).
+ Show Spoiler + Lets take a look at some facts, about Flash/JD relation:
Fact 1: Flash and JD are 4:3 in recent history (by recent I mean this and last season OSL/MSL + adequate SPL period, because if you wanna include previous MSL, you sure as hell cannot dodge last OSL). Yeah, that's right, Flash has more wins over JD than he has loses. Maybe somebody wants to pretend they only played in MSL and ingore the rest, but it doesn't work that way. JD got his ass whooped when they met in OSL and he lost again right after the MSL finals in ace match in winners league.
Fact 2: Flash has recenty broken almost every imaginable record. Highest Kespa rank ever, highest Elo ever BY FAR, he is the first progamer ever who has two MUs over 2300. Heck, he has EVERY MU over 2300. He has TvP higher than Jaedong ZvP! (You could argue that JD didn't play any protoss recently...well, maybe if he didn't get kicked out of OSL so soon, he could, like Flash or Effort did).
Fact 3: Flash is the first player ever who managed to reach double consecutive finals. Lets stop for a moment and think about it. Never ever in the whole history of BW there was a player who achieved that. Not Boxer, not iloveoov, not Nada, not Savior and definitely not Jaedong.
Fact 4: Flash is the best player in proleague. Yeah you are reading it right, not only he got to double consecutive finals, he at the same time scored most wins in PL. He even won the Winners league playoff for KT, something Jaedong failed to do when he had the chance last year (although he was really close).
And you are going to throw everything out of the window and say JD>Flash because of two BO5? Two BO5 which could together be played under 8 hours? Two BO5 from which one is already one of the most controversial and fucked up finals ever? Really? I mean...really?
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exactly adelarge, the idea that we have enough information to figure anybody is better than flash right now is insane
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mid-month PR in my opinion:
1.  Flash - for being Flash
2.  Jaedong - almost as good as Flash in recent games, small gap
3. EffOrt - 5-2 in proleague, OSL rampage after tiebreakers
4.  Kal - semifinalist and STX is owning in proleague right now
5. Calm - see above
6. BaBy - Ro16 in MSL, Ro8 in OSL, and ace of a good WeMade team
7. free - semifinals but weak in proleague ace matches
8. Pure - WeMade isn't using him much, but still got to semifinals
9. Snow - beat Flash but inexperienced, might be a fluke
10. Midas - didn't play much but didn't get much worse from last PR
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Rofl, "Let's just chill," directly after calling a whole group of people cowards, tastes like iron.
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On May 21 2010 16:05 InFdude wrote:
Flash fans are such cowards . If you are so sure in your "God" why do you keep damage controling the scenario of JD>Flash in the MSL. If you really think he's that good just chill and lets see what happens.
no need to be so offensive?
I'm not sure Flash will win. I hope he will but Jaedong is really strong and has one match to think about.
I think the chances are pretty equal right now after watching Flash's form vs action.
It's just that people claiming JD is better than Flash if flash lose don't look at the bigger picture.
You can't judge who is the better player overall by one Bo5 between the two.
Flash is in both finals for the second time, jaedong isn't. Why is jaedong not... why isn't jaedong on 2440+ elo... why isn't jaedong 70%+ in each matchup.
Damage controlling... We just speak up when a totally unlogical statement is being made that one Bo5 will decide everything, when the conditions aren't even the same (one player has to show his gameplay before the finals and prepare for more games than the other).
Same as I would speak up if another totally unlogical statement about something else was made.
I wouldn't say that Flash is the undisputed best at Bo5 finals even if he were to 3-0 jaedong.
I agree with adelarge's post.
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I disagree. Backho is the best player of all time. Have flash or jaedong ever won a game when they gg:ed first? He also has devised such great strategies as mass dark templar pvz, which is so hard to pull off noone else has ever tried it, neither sooner nor later.
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I have one question for JDs fans, just to test the consistency of your logic. IF you are saying JD>Flash based only on the results of their BO5s, ignoring everything else (because you believe that finals of league where the stakes are highest is the most important factor overshadowing anything else)...are you also going to say JD is a sucky team player who is constantly failing Oz?
Ridiculous? Not following this reasoning. Yeah, JD is the best player of the team by far, yadda yadda, but look at how he performed in the finals, where the stakes were highest.
I remember 3 times Oz was in something which could be considered serious teamleague finals:
1) PL finals vs Khan - JD lost to Frozean (!!), luckily his team won rest of the games.
2) Winners league vs CJ - JD ultimately failed to secure victory, CJ won.
3) PL finals vs SKT - JD goes 0:3 in two days, completely failing his team in both normal matches and ace match as well.
So are you going to ignore JDs undisputed hard work and amazing results he did/does for his team and mark him as the ultimate proleague choke artist? Is JD a bad proleague player because he fails everytime the stakes got high?
Definitely not for me, but hey, I'm not the one who is ignoring everything in favor of couple of games.
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On May 21 2010 16:05 InFdude wrote:
Flash fans are such cowards . If you are so sure in your "God" why do you keep damage controling the scenario of JD>Flash in the MSL. If you really think he's that good just chill and lets see what happens.
Not really damage control, a lot of Flash fans admit Jaedong out prepared and outplayed Flash in that finals. But you'd be an idiot to think that proves Jaedong is the better player overall between the two.
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On May 21 2010 14:55 jalstar wrote:mid-month PR in my opinion: 1. Flash - for being Flash 2. Jaedong - almost as good as Flash in recent games, small gap 3. EffOrt - 5-2 in proleague, OSL rampage after tiebreakers 4. Kal - semifinalist and STX is owning in proleague right now 5. Calm - see above 6. BaBy - Ro16 in MSL, Ro8 in OSL, and ace of a good WeMade team 7. free - semifinals but weak in proleague ace matches 8. Pure - WeMade isn't using him much, but still got to semifinals 9. Snow - beat Flash but inexperienced, might be a fluke 10. Midas - didn't play much but didn't get much worse from last PR
if u even think of not putting action on there i'd be very much offended
i dont care that he hasnt reached any where in starleagues yet
he's good much better than pure
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On May 21 2010 21:35 adelarge wrote:
I have one question for JDs fans, just to test the consistency of your logic. IF you are saying JD>Flash based only on the results of their BO5s, ignoring everything else (because you believe that finals of league where the stakes are highest is the most important factor overshadowing anything else)...are you also going to say JD is a sucky team player who is constantly failing Oz?
Ridiculous? Not following this reasoning. Yeah, JD is the best player of the team by far, yadda yadda, but look at how he performed in the finals, where the stakes were highest.
I remember 3 times Oz was in something which could be considered serious teamleague finals:
1) PL finals vs Khan - JD lost to Frozean (!!), luckily his team won rest of the games.
2) Winners league vs CJ - JD ultimately failed to secure victory, CJ won.
3) PL finals vs SKT - JD goes 0:3 in two days, completely failing his team in both normal matches and ace match as well.
So are you going to ignore JDs undisputed hard work and amazing results he did/does for his team and mark him as the ultimate proleague choke artist? Is JD a bad proleague player because he fails everytime the stakes got high?
Definitely not for me, but hey, I'm not the one who is ignoring everything in favor of couple of games.
yes its true his real strength is in bo5 where flash is 0-4 !!!!!!
and not to mention he had most wins in 2009-2010 proleague
+ the match with cj vs oz he did kill 3 of cj team leaving skyhigh to face the rest
i'm pretty sure if it was the ace match he wouldnt have played that way (failed rush /and a miserably one understandable they were 3-0 leaving skyhigh vs rest of the team who we know suck )
he practiclly brought the team on his own winning on regular bases 2 games in each oz fight
and i do believe that to get there on the finals he did ak ktf and flash on the ace on a very amz comeback game !!
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Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much. Flash also won all of his games in the only teamleague finals he's ever been in.
Admittedly, the only other time he came close was in the previous season's Winner's League playoffs, where he went 0-2 to a BBS by Fantasy and the aforementioned comeback game.
But, if you're so quick to think that Jaedong is the king of Bo5s, then I guess Flash is the king of Bo3s and proleague, cause he has won ever Bo3 vs Jaedong and has outperformed him in the past 2 seasons of Proleague thusfar.
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On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
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On May 21 2010 22:15 pvzvt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much. yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
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On May 21 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 22:15 pvzvt wrote:On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much. yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
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It's alright. JD will shut you up again. So it'll be settled once and for all. This time without Power Outage.
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On May 22 2010 00:16 pvzvt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote:On May 21 2010 22:15 pvzvt wrote:On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much. yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter I think you mistunderstood his post. no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture?
By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
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EPT
