EPTtoo bad those same balls put Stork above JD ;<
overall quite interesting PR, i still like it!
Power Rank 01/03/2010 - Page 9
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
too bad those same balls put Stork above JD ;< overall quite interesting PR, i still like it! | ||
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SkytoM
Austria1137 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
Sure his ZvP have looked decent lately (or at least his early\mid game) but drawing conclusions that he is a ZvP beast from a few wins on favorable maps during a time when Z>P in general seem a bit early to me at least. Maybe he have really become good at it, but lets give him some more time to prove it. Now are you honestly telling me you think Stork have looked GOOD in his PvZ losses? He looked awful vs Effort, and threw away a huge lead in game1 vs Shine (killed a drone, got a big BO advantage with sair\reaver vs mutas). Winning a solid game2 and then game3 Shine raped him from start to finish, having his muta rape the main while he defended easily back home against the zeals. How you can rate that as much better than 1 loss vs godmode flash and 1 brilliant Cheese I do not know. Not to mention you hail Storks PvZ as the best when hes 5-5 in his last 10 games while heavily questioning JDs ZvT for losing twice (with 1 brilliant cheese I might add) vs godmode flash and a loss vs Sea and still being 6-4 in his last 10 ZvTs, and also questioning his ZvZ despite having won 6 of them the last month just makes no sense and is highly inconsistent. (Take note I even like Stork more than Jaedong so this is not the fanboyism you use to sweep away doubters) About ZerO, yeah having a big workload is terrible, but that dont excuse losing every game vs hard opponents you play and even a few vs mediocre ones while not really beating anyone good beside taking a game of Flash. (No pure is not good, neither is Yarnc these days). Had Flash or JD done that you would have wanted their head on a plate. While ZerO is rewarded with staying put at his spot despite dropping out of both leagues and losing important acematches. Yes he is a good player and I kind of like him, but not looking helpless in his losses (I agree in several of them he played well) don`t make them go away and every time the stakes got high he lost. | ||
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asdfTT123
United States989 Posts
How the heck did Sea move up after losing to Violet, Flash, and Flying? If you consider his win against Jaedong to be of any importance you've gotten your priorities completely mixed up. How the heck is Calm so low? If you're going solely with quality of play (as it seems you are with some of these rankings) then Calm should be higher than Movie and Zero... Speaking of Zero, the kid has terrible record during the month of December yet he stays in #6 position because of his workload? Lol...look at Flash, Fantasy, Bisu, and Jaedong over the majority of their career. And Shine taking the number 4 spot despite *barely* making it past Stork and after a humiliating loss to Bisu? Sorry, but Shine doesn't do a thing for me when it comes to creative play or consistency. Also, speaking of consistency, how is Violet not on this PR??? As much as I hate all of KT Rolster and Protoss players, Violet is as consistent as ever and has delivered results. Please bring riptide back to write these PR's. His were at least logical, consistent, and well-thought out. This is possibly the most bogus and biased PR ever... | ||
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hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
thank you for taking the time for writing it out, and even as a calm-violet fan, i do support it despite the heat you're getting from alot of people (including me, initially) | ||
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HuntingX
United States8 Posts
It seems like random picks of whoever he likes at the time, without any regard to records. Stork, out of both leagues, at #2? #8, maybe. If you go by proleague records, you have Shine at #4, and Bisu out completely (when Bisu 2-0ed the poor guy in a single proleague match). Some players (KAL) deserve WAAAAAAY higher placement. #10, really? He hit a new ELO peak. Have you WATCHED his games? I really doubt it. I'm not going to give my own take on the top 10, but this isn't anywhere close. I think it's clear Teamliquid needs a new person to do PowerRanks. I generally have a few qualms here or there, but this is the first power rank that's just been godawful  | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
if Flash weren't dominating this matchup so hard right now we would all be talking about how amazing Sea's TvT is. His TvZ really connected in December and he was able to scalp Jaedong. While his TvP is questionable, his TvT-esque victory over Stork at the very very end of November still is lingering in the back of my mind and gives me faith that his TvP is actually up to scratch. As usual, Sea is bubbling with talent and promise but is absent from both leagues. One day he'll break into a league and win it all... one day... Also, as others have said, not qualifing for leagues is worse than getting out of them. | ||
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why
United States215 Posts
all the outrage is pretty fun too! | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
But it wouldn't be if he had dropped to like 5th,6th,7th in the last PR like he shouldve. FLASH <3 | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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khersai
Poland366 Posts
I would swap Sea with Calm thou as for all the Stork > JD drama I'm with Plexa here, none of JD's wins were particullarly impressive (well, his game against Canata was nice), on the other hand all of his losses were pathetic It was sad watching him being completely helpless against Flash and the game against Sea... how blind must you be to call that a slip up ? | ||
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Dreamer.T
United States3584 Posts
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LucasWoJ
United States936 Posts
On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: Okay, let's do Jaedong vs Stork. Hopefully we can all agree that if Stork isn't #2 then Jaedong is, and Stork is #3. I would like to emphasize the quality that distinguished the top three from everyone else - and that was consistency across the board in December. All three were destroying Proleague and whatever leagues they were in (up until Ro8 anyway). The task this month was to determine which played stronger in December - Stork or Jaedong. Personally, I beleive that both are playing very very well at the moment and separating them is almost impossible. So basically you have Flash way out ahead, then Stork and Jaedong trailing in his wake together. Now let's get to the games. In the OSL Stork played Kwanro and Flash. Jaedong played Movie and go.go. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have Jaedong's opponents than Stork's opponents! So basically, Stork's OSL group was harder. Jaedong destroyed Movie and go.go like he should, so really he shouldn't be penalized for having the weaker group, but Stork does get bonus points for defeating Flash in an impressive game (despite all the imba in his favour). So let's take a look at their respective Ro8 opponents. Jaedong's opponent has a career record of 99-43 in TvZ (70% including unofficial games). Stork's opponent has a career record of 30-14 in ZvP (68% including unofficial games). While Stork's opponent is newer than Flash, and doesn't boast the same reputation as him, Shine is actually a beast in ZvP. To say that they were equally hard would be a bit of a lie, but Shine really does deserve credit for his ZvP. Jaedong lost 0-2 in poor games. Stork lost 1-2 in mostly close games. So who wins the Ro8 battle? Difficult to tell, but personally I lean slightly towards Stork since Jaedong did look so helpless against Flash. Jaedong is being spoonfed victims in the MSL. That's thanks to the retarded KeSPA seeding format - and so Jaedong gets to look forward to two easy round of firefist and Stats. Other players got legitimately difficult opponents (like Flash) but Jaedong gets to cruise through. I don't value Jaedong's MSL run much for that reason. He's been spoonfed scrubs - just like in proleague. Stork dispatches of scrubs as well, or at least he did in December. Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork. Stork losing to Effort is comparable to Jaedong losing to Sea. Stork trounced Bisu/Best while Jaedong got Roro/Hogil in their mirrors. Jaedong semi-cheesed Movie and dispatched tester without too much problem so his ZvP is still very much intact (not that we were ever questioning it). Stork didn't run into any Terrans. With all that set, I would say that they are about even. But then Stork lost to hero earlier in the month. That game is an anomaly as far as I am concerned, but with the separation between these two so fine it does give Jaedong a very small edge in PL. To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november despite a solid showing earlier in the month. There isn't anything useful to be gained by looking 2 months into the past really. As I already outlined, the deciding factor was weighing up between Stork's PvZ and Jaedong's ZvT. Looking at all the games over the month, my confidence in Jaedong's vT has been shaken while my confidence in Stork's vZ is only scarred. This does largely come from comparing Shine-Stork/Effort-Stork against Flash-Jaedong/Sea-Jaedong. People will disagree with this, and that's not surprising given the rampant Jaedong fanbase, or minute separation between these two in december. This logic makes sense, but we have different interpretations of the OSL games. Except for the game stork won, he looked utterly silly against Shine. The 0-2 loss is much more credit to Flash for playing strategically than a "minus" to jaedong. His reaction to a strategy he had never seen before in the second game was probably better than anything anyone would have done in such a situation. You can't even compare those games. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
On January 04 2010 04:45 LucasWoJ wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 03 2010 22:49 Plexa wrote: Okay, let's do Jaedong vs Stork. Hopefully we can all agree that if Stork isn't #2 then Jaedong is, and Stork is #3. I would like to emphasize the quality that distinguished the top three from everyone else - and that was consistency across the board in December. All three were destroying Proleague and whatever leagues they were in (up until Ro8 anyway). The task this month was to determine which played stronger in December - Stork or Jaedong. Personally, I beleive that both are playing very very well at the moment and separating them is almost impossible. So basically you have Flash way out ahead, then Stork and Jaedong trailing in his wake together. Now let's get to the games. In the OSL Stork played Kwanro and Flash. Jaedong played Movie and go.go. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have Jaedong's opponents than Stork's opponents! So basically, Stork's OSL group was harder. Jaedong destroyed Movie and go.go like he should, so really he shouldn't be penalized for having the weaker group, but Stork does get bonus points for defeating Flash in an impressive game (despite all the imba in his favour). So let's take a look at their respective Ro8 opponents. Jaedong's opponent has a career record of 99-43 in TvZ (70% including unofficial games). Stork's opponent has a career record of 30-14 in ZvP (68% including unofficial games). While Stork's opponent is newer than Flash, and doesn't boast the same reputation as him, Shine is actually a beast in ZvP. To say that they were equally hard would be a bit of a lie, but Shine really does deserve credit for his ZvP. Jaedong lost 0-2 in poor games. Stork lost 1-2 in mostly close games. So who wins the Ro8 battle? Difficult to tell, but personally I lean slightly towards Stork since Jaedong did look so helpless against Flash. Jaedong is being spoonfed victims in the MSL. That's thanks to the retarded KeSPA seeding format - and so Jaedong gets to look forward to two easy round of firefist and Stats. Other players got legitimately difficult opponents (like Flash) but Jaedong gets to cruise through. I don't value Jaedong's MSL run much for that reason. He's been spoonfed scrubs - just like in proleague. Stork dispatches of scrubs as well, or at least he did in December. Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork. Stork losing to Effort is comparable to Jaedong losing to Sea. Stork trounced Bisu/Best while Jaedong got Roro/Hogil in their mirrors. Jaedong semi-cheesed Movie and dispatched tester without too much problem so his ZvP is still very much intact (not that we were ever questioning it). Stork didn't run into any Terrans. With all that set, I would say that they are about even. But then Stork lost to hero earlier in the month. That game is an anomaly as far as I am concerned, but with the separation between these two so fine it does give Jaedong a very small edge in PL. To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november despite a solid showing earlier in the month. There isn't anything useful to be gained by looking 2 months into the past really. As I already outlined, the deciding factor was weighing up between Stork's PvZ and Jaedong's ZvT. Looking at all the games over the month, my confidence in Jaedong's vT has been shaken while my confidence in Stork's vZ is only scarred. This does largely come from comparing Shine-Stork/Effort-Stork against Flash-Jaedong/Sea-Jaedong. People will disagree with this, and that's not surprising given the rampant Jaedong fanbase, or minute separation between these two in december. This logic makes sense, but we have different interpretations of the OSL games. Except for the game stork won, he looked utterly silly against Shine. The 0-2 loss is much more credit to Flash for playing strategically than a "minus" to jaedong. His reaction to a strategy he had never seen before in the second game was probably better than anything anyone would have done in such a situation. You can't even compare those games. How did stork look silly in game 1 or 3 v shine? Game 1 was a really close game, much closer than flash v jaedong's game 1. And game 3 shine did a cheesy move by mining out the backdoor mineral and stork scouted that using star sense, but it put him behind because he had to pull like 8 probes. Then he had to do a coin toss, whether to try and block a hydra break of mutalisk. Stork chose to defend against hydra, and as a result lost to mutalisk v shine. You can't really blame stork. Zergs just can be like that. It was protoss that looked silly v zerg not stork looking silly v shine. Jaedong did poorly game 1 and did poorly game 2 in response to the cheese too. On January 04 2010 02:32 HuntingX wrote: It seems like random picks of whoever he likes at the time, without any regard to records. Stork, out of both leagues, at #2? #8, maybe. If you go by proleague records, you have Shine at #4, and Bisu out completely (when Bisu 2-0ed the poor guy in a single proleague match). Some players (KAL) deserve WAAAAAAY higher placement. #10, really? He hit a new ELO peak. Have you WATCHED his games? I really doubt it. Why does stork deserve #8? I think you are the one who is randomly picking whoever you like at the moment. Stork played the closest series in the ro8 and killed everyone in the proleague, except for the first and last pl game of this month. Most people here are complaining why jaedong is below stork, which basically means they think stork should be around #3 not #8. Bisu has been playing terribly, his games are sloppy, and bisu did not 2-0 shine or anybody in December. On January 04 2010 01:01 QuakerOats wrote: Ok, please explain how he could have reacted better. As a ZvT player I want to know this. I'm sorry but the only possible way he could have "reacted better" is by heavily outmicroing Flash but that is not JD reacting better but Flash reacting worse. From the moment JD sent his overlord across the map and 12 hatched it was pretty much game over. And then you forgive Stork's loss to Shine because it was "semi-cheese" when it was something that's easily stoppable. Compare that to Flash's build which, whether you call it cheese or not, is essentially a hard counter to 12 hatch and there's nothing really the Zerg can do. Instead of making sunkens, use the 10 drones to delay flash, get the lings, then make the sunken and pull some drones off because 4 rines, 4 scv can't beat drones and lings. Jaedong probably would of lost 2~4 drones at most. | ||
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
On January 04 2010 05:13 MuffinDude wrote: How did stork look silly in game 1 or 3 v shine? Game 1 was a really close game, much closer than flash v jaedong's game 1. And game 3 shine did a cheesy move by mining out the backdoor mineral and stork scouted that using star sense, but it put him behind because he had to pull like 8 probes. Then he had to do a coin toss, whether to try and block a hydra break of mutalisk. Stork chose to defend against hydra, and as a result lost to mutalisk v shine. You can't really blame stork. Zergs just can be like that. It was protoss that looked silly v zerg not stork looking silly v shine. Jaedong did poorly game 1 and did poorly game 2 in response to the cheese too. Hahahaha Again please tell me how Jaedong could have reacted better. I will tell you right now how Stork could have reacted better to the "cheesy move" (which isn't even close to cheese) - counted Shine's drones like any decent Protoss does and realized he was missing one, then either stopping the drone or placing a cannon to stop a runby. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 04 2010 05:13 MuffinDude wrote: How did stork look silly in game 1 or 3 v shine? Game 1 was a really close game, much closer than flash v jaedong's game 1. And game 3 shine did a cheesy move by mining out the backdoor mineral and stork scouted that using star sense, but it put him behind because he had to pull like 8 probes. Then he had to do a coin toss, whether to try and block a hydra break of mutalisk. Stork chose to defend against hydra, and as a result lost to mutalisk v shine. You can't really blame stork. Zergs just can be like that. It was protoss that looked silly v zerg not stork looking silly v shine. Jaedong did poorly game 1 and did poorly game 2 in response to the cheese too. Why does stork deserve #8? I think you are the one who is randomly picking whoever you like at the moment. Stork played the closest series in the ro8 and killed everyone in the proleague, except for the first and last pl game of this month. Most people here are complaining why jaedong is below stork, which basically means they think stork should be around #3 not #8. Bisu has been playing terribly, his games are sloppy, and bisu did not 2-0 shine or anybody in December. Christ, its not like Shine invented the Wheel when he mined out that backdoor. If Stork had Star Sense, he would have counted the drones notice 1 was missing and could easily conclude he was mining out, and if he still wasnt sure he could have scouted there BEFORE he placed his cannons so they did not cover the ramp. There was NOTHING cheesy about what Shine did that game, everything was perfectly normal and Stork reacted poorly to it. Then he proceeds to lose his first corsair to scourge so he can`t defend vs Mutas, and its not like Stork flipped a coin where to put up cannons he only had 3 at his natural. The only difference from a normal game from Shines side was that he took his second gas before his 5th hatchery to grind out some extra gas for those mutas, beside that everything he did was absolutely standard and it was Storks LACK of "Star Sense" that caused him the problems from those lings, and his lack of paying attention that cost him the first sair which led to him not being able to defend his main. (Yeah he could have lost it anyway, but he would have had 2 sairs and 1 cannon vs not so many mutas) And one thing for Plexa that I forgot to mention in the other post is how his arguments about Shine really lost all value when he started using unofficial stats to try to manipulate Shine into looking better than he is. Flash winrate didnt even go up by 1%, while Shines went up like 12. Its like someone arguing who is the best player at the B level of iccup, and one of them bring up his wicked good winrate he had at C-. It holds no relevance to the question at hand. Edit: To make it clear I am not denying that unofficial games can`t be used to prove a point, as you can beat top players who are trying their hardest in Offliners. However in Shines case his strongest wins in offliners are either Tester, Jaehoon, Luciefer or Horrang2 depending on who you think are the least bad at PvZ. | ||
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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