On January 03 2010 15:30 Oystein wrote: I don`t know what kind of drugs you have taken before you wrote this PR, but I want some of it!
The worst PR I have ever seen, the only position (and text for that matter) I can agree on is Flash. Everything else is just god awful and not even consistent. Questioning JDs ZvZ when hes won every single game since last month in a convincing matter. Praise Storks PvZ as the best, despite him losing going SAIR\reaver vs MUTAS and looking totally helpless vs Effort. When you at the same time have Bisu on a 7game PvZ winstreak dispatching every Zerg he faces. And dont even get me started on Calms and ZerOs placement, you cite ingame strengths as the reason for ZerOs placement and then knock Effort of the list despite looking just as good in his losses and having a better overall stats the last month and looking insanely strong in many of his wins. I am just gonna quit now as I assume this is just a joke from your side to see if you can create more of a shitstorm than JWDs rankings could.
I stopped reading when you started kissing bisus ass
Bisu got manner CC'd by Frozean.
FROZEAN
I don't care if he 3-0'd flash and jaedong in a 1 v 2, you get bm'd by frozean and you have no right to be ranked
Lol where did I suggest Bisu should be ranked, and where did I kiss his ass? Have he NOT won his 7 last PvZs and playing some rock solid PvZ lately?
I did nothing but state facts, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension before start throwing around mindless accusations? Not to mention you manage to make possibly the most retarded statement ever in your last sentence.
On January 03 2010 07:35 iamho wrote: calm number 9? what the fuck? he went 11-5 in a month with 8 games against flash, shine, fantasy, zero, and effort. 2 hatch muta is a legitimate build too
and its "just zvz" is a pretty bad excuse for calm going 6-1 this month in it
also calm has won his most recent encounter with every player ranks 2-8
Yeah it is "just ZvZ that's not a MU that requires skill ...." , yet beating Zero and Shine in ZvZ is probably equall to Stork beating Bisu and Best in PvP but PvP takes skills to win in it and in PvP it's because of the skill they win and not because " it's just a PvP and anything can happen" .
sarcasm , although a little bit true based on the PR
He didn't even use the timing of a 2 hatch in the first game against Pure . That was a 3 hatch muta timing but due to the third hatch dying he had made drones and saved up for 6 larvae worth of mutas and his plan was to damage the protoss with your mutas even up the early dissadvantage and play your planned game from there , Pure didn't have the necessary defences to stop it and got rolled .
On January 03 2010 08:49 Avidkeystamper wrote: Cancel the hatchery and be boxed into that little choke in HBR? 1 base zerg v. 2 base teran gogo.
It's better than losing the game. Surely that's a pretty basic choice. He was at a disadvantage. He could pretend he wasn't, try and execute a normal counter, fail and lose or he could accept his disadvantage and try and recover later.
These situations can be recovered with clutch play anyway. + Show Spoiler +
HBR doesnt have a backdoor entrance to your main.
If the terran blocks the entrance and bunkers behind, its gg.
Okay now that everyone's got the rage out of their system (hopefully) in a bit I'll go over why I ranked players where I did and hopefully you'll see how I approached this ranking and then everything should make sense.
On January 03 2010 15:36 Holgerius wrote: <SuperArc mode>Jaedong would have beaten Flash in a Bo5. Therefore, Jaedong should be ranked higher than Flash</SuperArc mode>
I was one of the first ones who said the winner of their bo3 should be ranked #1. Why do you say that? :/
On January 03 2010 15:30 Oystein wrote: I don`t know what kind of drugs you have taken before you wrote this PR, but I want some of it!
The worst PR I have ever seen, the only position (and text for that matter) I can agree on is Flash. Everything else is just god awful and not even consistent. Questioning JDs ZvZ when hes won every single game since last month in a convincing matter. Praise Storks PvZ as the best, despite him losing going SAIR\reaver vs MUTAS and looking totally helpless vs Effort. When you at the same time have Bisu on a 7game PvZ winstreak dispatching every Zerg he faces. And dont even get me started on Calms and ZerOs placement, you cite ingame strengths as the reason for ZerOs placement and then knock Effort of the list despite looking just as good in his losses and having a better overall stats the last month and looking insanely strong in many of his wins. I am just gonna quit now as I assume this is just a joke from your side to see if you can create more of a shitstorm than JWDs rankings could.
I stopped reading when you started kissing bisus ass
Bisu got manner CC'd by Frozean.
FROZEAN
I don't care if he 3-0'd flash and jaedong in a 1 v 2, you get bm'd by frozean and you have no right to be ranked
I hate to tell you this, but you know, Frozean kind of can beat anyone. He's actually extremely good if he's on his game. He's just off it soooo often.
edit : I think the ranking of the first 4 is fine, it's just that after it it gets a little finicky. Movie has beaten no one impressive besides Zero in the last month, and Zero had a bo3 against Flash at the same time. I probably wouldn't even put Movie on the power rank. I might move Zero down one, putting Calm above him and Kal below. Sea/Effort/Violet would round out my bottom 3. CBNC people would be like, Best, Bisu, Bogus, Kwanro. Violet could be swapped out for Kwanro or Bisu, 10 is kind of indeterminate. Violet/Effort/Sea all fall into similar boats, the only difference is that Violet plays utterly hideous games on Outsider.
Also, Haksoo/Secret has been doing really well recently in pvp. Why has nobody noticed?
Beeing a JD hater certainly helps placing him below Stork .
If this is supposed to be based off December where JD didnt loose a single ZvZ nor ZvP (Only got killed by the best player in the world, and had a missfortunate game vs sea) I'm abit confused.
I think the argument that JDs games have looked "worse" than Storks are just phoney since when you look at quite a few of the PvZs Stork has played this month, you'd easily question his play just as much if not more.
I wont argue that Stork is playing amazing Starcraft, and I love the fact that he does, but I just dont know about the arguments as to place JD below Stork this month.
Okay let's deal with Calm at #9 first. The reason Calm is on this power rank is because his ZvZ is capable of winning games. November was a grace month, he was able to stay low in the PR despite a shitty record on the strength of his past performances with a tagline basically saying, prove me right in December - Calm was not able to do that this month. The reason Calm dropped is that his ZvT and ZvP look terrible. Saying that in light of his series against Flash may seem contradictory, but if you look at the strength of his games across the entire month (not just the games on 01/01/10) then it is clear that his ZvT is not up to par.
Examples. 1) Fantasy vs Calm
While Fantasy is sucking atm (relatively of course), he still is pretty sharp so a convincing win here would do great things to alleviate concerns about his ZvT. This game can be divided into halves - pre-Hive and post-Hive. pre-Hive Calm isn't doing anything impressive, but is able to keep the game even and everything looks pretty solid. He's a little careless with his Mutalisks, but going 3hatch gives him that extra bit of flexibility with them (since he's not relying on them to do as much damage as a 2 hatch.). Up until now Calm's playing alright. Then he makes a Hive and the game falls to pieces. Here is all the mistakes Calm made - Poor engagement of Fantasy's troops when Fantasy was first pushing with tank/vessel (this was horrendous) - Failure to shut down/prevent Fantasy's third - Failure to get a 4th gas to keep up in the macro game with fantasy - Reaction time on drops was abysmal - Unit control, on the whole, was very very poor Calm looked terrible in the 2nd half of this game (watch the vod if you don't beleive me). The reason this game went on so long is that Fantasy played pretty terrible as well (poor vessel control, losing shitloads of marines/tanks to idle lurkers etc). This game just makes me go, woah - maybe your losses against Justin in November weren't just a fluke after all?
Example 2 - Calm vs Piano
Yes, Calm won this game. He pulled wayyy ahead at the start with a cute 2hatch lurker build. I'm not going to deduct marks for that, he's entitled to throw the curve ball every now and then. Once he got this advantage, he proceeded into somewhat of a normal game. Despite this advantage the game dragged into post-Hive game and once again Calm falls apart. Every single problem noted above is also present in his game play here. Fortunately, Piano isn't very good and with such a large advantage it was always going to be Calm's game to lose. Nevertheless, this game reveals that Calm's late game problems are not isolated to one game. It's inherent in his ZvT style.
Unfortunately, his game against Miracle didn't really reveal anything. Except that he loves to use the exact same strategy on Tornado over and over again. Miracle killed himself before any real information could be gathered about Calm.
Example 3 - Calm vs Flash Game 1
Okay the previous game have shown that Calm's Mutalisk control isn't great, but this game shows that when Clam shows up to play, his mutalisks are terrible. Calm was never in control of this game - his 2 hatch muta did not do nearly enough damage for him to call it even and when he lost most of his mutalisks the game was over. The rest was just a formality (other Zerg's have gg'd at the point in the past, like hero vs Light in the MSL). This does nothing to alleviate any concerns about Calm's ZvT.
Example 4 - Calm vs Flash Game 2
As a Calm fan, this is what I want to see!! Vintage calm in action. The hidden third base in this game was the perfect touch to make this strategy lethal. Despite Clam controlling the mutalisks initially, Calm settled in to finish the game and exhibited the control that we expect from him. Flash had a hole in his defense, Calm saw it, exploited it, and took the game. Despite a win here, this does nothing but reassure me that Calm's mid game/early game is top notch, its the late midgame and late game that we have big problems with!
Example 5 - Calm vs Flash Game 3
This is Calm's glorious redemption game. For once he deviates from his standard ZvT style and hugs a faster 4th gas like his life depended on it. In this game Calm does make mistakes, but they're not basic mistakes they are things like deciding when and where and how to attack Flash's turtle and whatnot. This is exactly what I had been looking for all month - but one game is never enough to redeem two months of playing like crap.
Example 6 - Calm vs Flash Game 4
Just like his other ZvT's, Calm falls apart once reaching Hive. This just goes to show that game 3 was an anomaly, and this is what you should be expecting from Calm usually.
There you have it, a month of ZvT - and the conclusion? Calm played poor ZvT in December. After a lackluster November he had a lot of tough questions to answer. How many did he answer? None. Calm's ZvT has not looked like top 10 material, not by a long shot.
So then we turn to his ZvP. In essence if you have two good matchups and are making the semifinals of either OSL or MSL you're pretty much guaranteed a good spot on the PR. With Calm's ZvZ being good, and his ZvT being bad (relative to other players matchups in the top ten) his ZvP better be good!
Unfortunately, we can' say this about his ZvP. November also begged the questions - Calm, can you play good ZvP!? He had a very questionable loss to Best in the MSL (a game which he should have won) and he gained a huge lead over Sangho on Outsider only to almost blow it entirely. There were some serious doubts over his ZvP, but if this was just Calm having an off day or Calm getting lazy in the end game (see a theme here btw?) then surely he would be able to crush Pure, a nothing special protoss.
That was not the case. In game 1 he was at a severe disadvantage against Pure after being cannon rushed. But he was fortunate that Pure choked and misread his 2 hatch muta - basically gifted him the game. In game 2, Calm went 2 hatch on el nino (great ZvP map btw) and barely was able to fend of Pure. Indeed, after losing his mutalisks the game was almost equal. However, Pure once against choked up hard and Calm went on to take the series. Those games revealed absolutely nothing about his ZvP condition, if anything, it raised more questions about it. With two poor months of ZvP how can anyone justifiably say that Calm's ZvP is top ten worthy? You can't.
In summation, Calm late game in both matchups tends to spiral out of control. His early/mid game play is really good (hence why he wins zvzs) but his mid-late/late game play is comparatively terrible. As such, with such a huge glaring inherent flaw in his game play, he deserves 9th. Am I being too harsh on Calm? That's a very real possibility, I'm a fan who's very harsh on players he likes. But I think the fact that Kwanro has been able to play solid games in every matchup, and not just ZvZ gives him the edge this month. Yes, Effort has played better than Calm this month. And in a perfect wold Effort would be in and calm would be CBNC - but effort did drop out of both leagues and has only had proleague to worry about for most of the month. Expect effort to come rising back in as some of the rookies crumble under the pressure.
Oh and why is Zero ranked above him? Because Zero doesn't lack the same late game faults that Calm does, but still has a strong mid-early game (not as strong though).
Okay, let's do Jaedong vs Stork. Hopefully we can all agree that if Stork isn't #2 then Jaedong is, and Stork is #3. I would like to emphasize the quality that distinguished the top three from everyone else - and that was consistency across the board in December. All three were destroying Proleague and whatever leagues they were in (up until Ro8 anyway).
The task this month was to determine which played stronger in December - Stork or Jaedong. Personally, I beleive that both are playing very very well at the moment and separating them is almost impossible. So basically you have Flash way out ahead, then Stork and Jaedong trailing in his wake together.
Now let's get to the games. In the OSL Stork played Kwanro and Flash. Jaedong played Movie and go.go. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have Jaedong's opponents than Stork's opponents! So basically, Stork's OSL group was harder. Jaedong destroyed Movie and go.go like he should, so really he shouldn't be penalized for having the weaker group, but Stork does get bonus points for defeating Flash in an impressive game (despite all the imba in his favour).
So let's take a look at their respective Ro8 opponents. Jaedong's opponent has a career record of 99-43 in TvZ (70% including unofficial games). Stork's opponent has a career record of 30-14 in ZvP (68% including unofficial games). While Stork's opponent is newer than Flash, and doesn't boast the same reputation as him, Shine is actually a beast in ZvP. To say that they were equally hard would be a bit of a lie, but Shine really does deserve credit for his ZvP.
Jaedong lost 0-2 in poor games. Stork lost 1-2 in mostly close games. So who wins the Ro8 battle? Difficult to tell, but personally I lean slightly towards Stork since Jaedong did look so helpless against Flash.
Jaedong is being spoonfed victims in the MSL. That's thanks to the retarded KeSPA seeding format - and so Jaedong gets to look forward to two easy round of firefist and Stats. Other players got legitimately difficult opponents (like Flash) but Jaedong gets to cruise through. I don't value Jaedong's MSL run much for that reason. He's been spoonfed scrubs - just like in proleague. Stork dispatches of scrubs as well, or at least he did in December.
Turning to Proleague, Jaedong probably has an edge over Stork. Stork losing to Effort is comparable to Jaedong losing to Sea. Stork trounced Bisu/Best while Jaedong got Roro/Hogil in their mirrors. Jaedong semi-cheesed Movie and dispatched tester without too much problem so his ZvP is still very much intact (not that we were ever questioning it). Stork didn't run into any Terrans. With all that set, I would say that they are about even. But then Stork lost to hero earlier in the month. That game is an anomaly as far as I am concerned, but with the separation between these two so fine it does give Jaedong a very small edge in PL.
To try and force some separation between the two I concerned their November records. Both were impresssive. Jaedong had some key losses to crap zergs, while Stork has a really terrible end of november despite a solid showing earlier in the month. There isn't anything useful to be gained by looking 2 months into the past really.
As I already outlined, the deciding factor was weighing up between Stork's PvZ and Jaedong's ZvT. Looking at all the games over the month, my confidence in Jaedong's vT has been shaken while my confidence in Stork's vZ is only scarred. This does largely come from comparing Shine-Stork/Effort-Stork against Flash-Jaedong/Sea-Jaedong. People will disagree with this, and that's not surprising given the rampant Jaedong fanbase, or minute separation between these two in december.
Let me quickly deal with some of the other major complaints.
Violet Violet's playing basically two matchups in proleauge at the moment - mostly vP with some vT thrown in on the side. Violet is playing well at the moment, but really he isn't exhibiting play worthy of top 10 or CBNC. Indeed, he has 2 painful and glaring losses to weak Protosses. With only proleague to practice for you really have to stand out if you want to be noticed for this ranking. Violet just isn't standing out at the moment, and that's why he's not on these lists.
Zero is too high! No he's not. Lol. He played more games than anyone else this month (iirc) AND he had the toughest draw of any progamer. I mean seriously, he had movie in the OSL, Flash in the MSL and was the woongjin ace through this whole time (where he ran into Stork TWICE). Thats a Jaedong-esque workload. Throughout this all, he never looked hopeless in his games and put up a good fight in all his matches (even taking a game off of flash). He had a really rough month, but he still is one of the most skilled zergs there are.
Kwanro is too high! As the fill-in PR writer, I will admit that ranking Kwanro this month was difficult. I stand by his placing at #8 however. He's on a 6-0 streak, and despite his inconsistencies, hasn't really lost to anyone surprising other than Bogus. Indeed, Kwanro looks like he's going to make an MSL semifinal again. Whether or not he is better than Calm comes down to the question who is more likely to win a game against player X? If X is a Zerg, then Calm is more likely to. If X is not a Zerg, then Calm will probably end up playing with hive tech (as he has done with all his vT's, and most vP's in November) and as such will be vulnerable if he doesn't have an advantage. Kwanro you know will exploit any early game advantages and make it a mid game win. Kwanro is just better at Calm at converting the almost won games to won games - and both players are very capable of getting games to the almost won stage. As such, Kwanro's better conversation rate made me put him over Calm this month.
Zero had that workload and only happened to win one of those games against strong players. Having a though month doesnt mean you can lose pretty much every big game. If it were Bisu everyone would be screaming massive slump and laughing at the idea of him being in the top10.
And i dont really mind seeing Kwanro instead of Violet, but saying that Violet isnt standing out atm doesnt make much sense to me. Is Kwanro standing out this past month? More than Violet, Effort or even Bisu? Nah.
I still fail to see why Movie is so high, especially compared to Kal. Calm is flamed for inconsistency outside ZvZ, while Movie only did good in PvZ, lost two of his four non-PvZ games and got thoroughly dismantled by Kal in a game that made him look like a scrub. Movie simply hasn't shown much outside of PvZ yet, and ranking a man that's only remarkable in one matchup as #5 seems wrong. Especially since Kal's month was just as good without even playing his statistically strongest matchup, the PvT.
I remember when FBH was ripping shit apart in TvZ and TvT and people debated ranking him at all only because he had poor TvP. Now there are people with unproven matchups all over the power rank :/
Review the second match in Jaedong's series against Flash, can you tell me that Jaedong reacted as good as he could have? (clue: you can't).
Ok, please explain how he could have reacted better. As a ZvT player I want to know this. I'm sorry but the only possible way he could have "reacted better" is by heavily outmicroing Flash but that is not JD reacting better but Flash reacting worse. From the moment JD sent his overlord across the map and 12 hatched it was pretty much game over.
And then you forgive Stork's loss to Shine because it was "semi-cheese" when it was something that's easily stoppable. Compare that to Flash's build which, whether you call it cheese or not, is essentially a hard counter to 12 hatch and there's nothing really the Zerg can do.
EPT
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