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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On March 26 2008 04:36 Last Romantic wrote: ... semioldguy will have them up soon, when his internet decides to work. I have been stuck not at home, I should get something up shortly though. Though most of my pictures have more to do with the Blizzard building/facility rather than specifically SC2. | ||
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Jubblies
United Kingdom6 Posts
On March 26 2008 07:18 FrozenArbiter wrote: How the hell did my name get into the quote? Last Romantic was the guy who wrote it  !ah my bad  soz!Back on topic, I just hope its fun to play. I know that MBS is being critically debated here, and I know that without it, (aka SC1) the gap between pros and n00bs was BIG, but to be completely honest, its just such a great feature to include. There are other ways of making macro managing harder thou, which I expect will develop more, eg WI for the protoss, therefore I expect MBS will remain but they will add more ways to make macro managing "harder" (at higher levels)for each race. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
Yeah I also think that'd be helpful but I think Blizzard will be patient during the beta and catch up on these things when the time comes. It seems to me that the subtle things are not noticed by and do not affect 90%+ of the players of BW. Assuming the same for SC2, Blizzard can design their game now to meet the vision intended for the average user and then make subtle changes during beta to satisfy the high-end competitors and fans without the average users even noticing. | ||
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Avius
Iraq1796 Posts
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
That's not really something i do care about, i play a game 15 hours and then throw it away. What i care about the most is how much potential e-sport wise it has. Are there signals...is there a basis that could generate such a hype like starcraft1. Can you imagine hundrets and thousands of fans on their toes when watching this game? Cheering and screaming at certain situations? I'm interessted in what you think about the big picture of starcraft2. A game is just a game, but can it be a sport? | ||
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TheDarKo
Sweden109 Posts
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Titusmaster6
United States5937 Posts
I just want to say a big fuck you to all the people who support the macro of SC2 right now. | ||
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TheOvermind77
United States923 Posts
On March 26 2008 09:05 Titusmaster6 wrote: This is terrible news, the macro, not the write-up. Thanks LR, you pretty much cleared up all of my questions about micro and macro. I just want to say a big fuck you to all the people who support the macro of SC2 right now. Yeah, it's a great idea to curse the average, casual gamer, who will be creating most of the sales revenue for this game and who wants to have an enjoyable time playing it. Great write up though, I'm real interested to see what DB and crew do in these next few months as things get even more refined. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
If Blizzard ends up not implementing SBS, what do you guys think of an alternative unhotkeyable MBS system, such as the following? -Allow multiple buildings to be selected at the same time only by double-click or ctrl-click on a single building (i.e. select all visible buildings) OR by shift clicking multiple buildings to add to your selection. -No drag selection for buildings (make them distinct from units, afaik not in current build anyways). -Allow hotkey of max one building at a time (hotkey ability could also be entirely removed to preserve the notion that buildings are distinct from units and to make the UI more uniform rather than an arbitrary limit of one per hotkey) I'm going to list a few pros and cons of the UI options out there. MBS PROS: - More user-friendly; better suited to both new and casual players; shorter learning curve - The UI standard in RTS today; won't feel outdated - Makes rally points and warp gate usage much more practical CONS: - Reduces multitasking requirement - Shifts the macro-micro balance away from the macro side of the scale (could also be a pro depending on point of view) - Amplifies the effect of auto-mining by allowing all nexus to be selected together (could also be a pro depending on point of view) MBS (hotkey max 1 building at a time) PROS: - Retains multitasking requirement - Will not necessarily feel out of place for new or casual players, because vast majority of players people who are new to RTS do not use hotkeys for buildings. (i.e. Dustin Browder's interview of how he selects all of his buildings each time he had to build) - Inflexible system for producing a specific mix of desired units from a single building type once you have more than 5 production buildings --> must click individually when fine-tuning is required - Similar to SC for first ~8 mins of game (while # of hotkeys are still sufficient for unit production buildings) - Will never allow you to select more than one nexus at a time --> no amplification of auto-mining - Makes rally points and warp gate usage much more practical - Invalidates the "repetitive clicking as primary skill" criticism of the UI from most uninformed players CONS: - UI may feel unintuitive (However, the people who would complain about it, would actually dislike SBS far more, even if it is more intuitive). IMO, unhotkeyable MBS is a good compromise of the UI for both the casual and the competitive scene. It retains the multitasking (forcing you to return to your base), while removing the "cloning" of the repeated building clicks that is the primary criticism of SBS. It isn't necessarily that unintuitive if you just think of buildings as different entities from units. | ||
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wurm
Philippines2296 Posts
Great article though, LR! | ||
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Anthius
1 Post
I wanted to ask: I found this line on sc2blog: "The match summary screen now contains informative graphs as well as the old number statistics." Can you expand on this at all? Thanks. link: http://www.sc2blog.com/2008/03/16/starcraft-2-korean-and-chinese-build-summary/ | ||
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
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Mx.DeeP
China25 Posts
No doubt, Starcraft II will be a great computer game, but from what I've read of this write-up (great write-up, btw ^^) it's not going to be a great competitive sport unless they make some changes. I don't exactly know the numbers in terms of how much Blizzard makes from the Korean pro scene, but that's where the longevity of BW comes from. All the guys who like MBS, auto-mining, etc. probably aren't going to be playing 10 years from now. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
I mean, you can't 'infinitely' queue up with protoss because then your probe would immediately make 'infinite' pylons. Same limitation with zerg. Ooh, it also seems to me they aren't making SC2 with esports in mind at all. I thought that was the big reason to make SC2, to reinamgine it but this time consciously make it an esports title rather than by accident. Are they just not trying or do they lack the competence? Because obviously a good video game is something totally different from a good esports video game. | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
I think this one really really needs to be addressed. In Brood War, there were spells that created pandamoneum in a stadium full of Koreans when they went off well. Plague, Psi Storm, Spider Mines. All abilities that had a visceral impact, and a tremendous game impact, and without that same sort of ability, I see Starcraft II missing a component of what made the original what it is. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20666 Posts
On March 26 2008 11:53 GeneralStan wrote: The most interesting part to me is the lack of flashy abilities. I think this one really really needs to be addressed. In Brood War, there were spells that created pandamoneum in a stadium full of Koreans when they went off well. Plague, Psi Storm, Spider Mines. All abilities that had a visceral impact, and a tremendous game impact, and without that same sort of ability, I see Starcraft II missing a component of what made the original what it is. To me that's the key point - 'WHEN they went off well' The current superspells like black hole and plasma torpedoes have a very low failure rate, so it's not nearly as interesting =/ | ||
fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
And yes, I believe that economic decisions can be, and are, as multivariate and complex in SC2 as they are in SC1. But I also believe that part of the entertainment of SC1 is watching 300+ apm players [or being a 300+ apm player] and having the ability to pound out all those keys. I don’t think more apm should always result in a win, but I also don’t think that I should be able to macro perfectly with 50 apm. It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing. This has always been my main concern with mbs. I really hope its fixed | ||
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snowbird
Germany2044 Posts
On March 26 2008 04:36 Last Romantic wrote: <font size=4>StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage</font> <font size=3>Part III: Thoughts on Gameplay</font> It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing. When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing. You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS. There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles. I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work! You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this: 1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs while in SC1 it would look like this: 1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8 8s77sF3bsbs Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining. Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities! Well, that's my view. | ||
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Re-Play-
Dominican Republic825 Posts
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ItchReliever
2489 Posts
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