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StarCraft II: Liquid Insight [Part 3]

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Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 21:39:52
March 25 2008 19:36 GMT
#1
StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage
Part III: Thoughts on Gameplay


Sorry for the rather delayed posting of this particular piece. I’ve been held up by college admissions + illness + midterms + new car + some other random crap, but I should still have finished it earlier. Ah well; with no further ado, the third installment:

I’m not going to go on about each unit in detail [I did write pages of notes on them during the planeflight home, and then realized how pointless it was] because specific units change every week. I’m just going to give rather general impressions about various aspects of gameplay from my limited knowledge.

Note: This may seem overly critical: I want to reiterate that it's an enjoyable game headed in a StarCraft-ish direction; trust in Blizzard. I'm just noting differences that I felt as a StarCraft player, both good and ill.

Graphical Feel/UI

Much like Pusan, my initial reaction was “whoa, this game looks different”. The feeling stayed with me throughout the day – not bad, just not the same as SC1. The game lobby didn’t have a countdown, and didn’t have much space to display screennames [we were TL_LastRo… and (T1)TL_sem…] – two insignificant cosmetics that will most likely be fixed anyway.

As for in-game, a few key changes: above the center, you can see what your hotkeys are + what you have on each key. It’s one of those ‘modern RTS’ things that I’ve never really found a use for, but it might help people get into SC2, which is good. I’ve played SC1 for long enough that I always use the same keys in every matchup; I didn’t stray far from the usual when playing SC2 but I can see why they made the hotkey display.

Hovering mouse shows not only cost in minerals/gas/supply, but time-to-build as well. It’ll make build timings easier when the game finally does come out. While I didn’t attempt to innovate much due to time constraints, I can see how fine-tuning build orders will be easier – now amateurs, as well as pros, will have exact 1/4 supply builds.

Micro

As for unit control, I’ll start with some traditional things – TvP battle micro. So playing around with jackals and stalkers: Jackals control differently from vultures; stalkers are not quite like dragoons. The first is a rather big difference: no mines, lower damage, less per-unit worth [one jackal is less ‘good’ than one vulture in any given scenario, IMO] Then my experience with dragoon micro served me ill – hold position seems to operate differently with stalkers and immortals. Not that it ever truly mattered. Part of it was a question of comparative ranges. No longer do stalkers outrange marines; this changes the TvP earlygame considerably.

So analogous units don’t really handle the same – that would be cool if it introduced a ‘different’ aspect, but I feel that, at least in this particular example, it just dumbs down the game. With both range upgrades no longer there, it removes a “level”, if you will, of control. Take bunker vs dragoon. Originally, dragoon > marines; bunker > dragoon; range > bunker; rangerines > rangegoons. Several back-and-forth volleys of upgrades and buildings and units.

Now it’s just marines > stalkers. Whatcha gonna do about it ? Things like that strike me as iffy. Something else of note: the Battlecruiser. Your giant space cow is now rather useful alone, because of his plasma torpedoes. The upgrade gives you something that is reminiscent of psi storm, in that it decimates craploads of ground units [though not air]. OK, good, but.. but what? My gripe is that putting it on a 500 HP armored beast removes strategic elements – it’s too straightforward, too ‘unstoppable’. You, upon seeing this, are supposed to just bend over and grab your ankles. That’s not to say it’s imbalanced, it’s unstoppable. There’s a difference.

Let me elaborate more. So in SC1 you’ve got your HTs accompanying your zealot/goon/archon army, and bam! Cracklings swoop down and snipe a couple HTs before you can react, severely limiting your spell damage. For a few larvae and a couple hundred minerals, he’s saved himself five, even ten times as much. Can’t do that with a Mothership or a Battlecruiser – they’re too beefy; any sacrifice wouldn’t really be worth it. So, my first main point: superunits should not come with superspells.

Continuing my micro thoughts, then. Tata to the reaver, bye-bye medic, hasta la vista DA, adieu monsieur l’arbiter, goodnight scourge – bam! There goes all the Kim SungJe/Lee YoonYeol/Kang DoKyung name shouting. Cost-effective unit variance seems, to me, to be limited in the sequel. You’ve got forty-kill HTs and eighty-kill reavers in SCBW – nothing seems to have that potential in SC2. Many units seem too straightforward and easy-to-use, and not enough seem like they have hidden pizazz.

I am not saying ‘add an ability to every unit!’ but rather ‘make for flashier abilities’. Let’s bring up something else, the stalker’s blink. OK, so he can blink. Everyone knows he can blink. Soon enough, everyone can use blink. Blink allows anyone to do Reach vs TheRock on RoV with minimum effort since his surrounds are rendered pointless. What’s the fun in watching, then? Dragoon vs melee micro is so beautiful because there’s a vast difference between a progamer’s dragoon and an amateur’s dragoon.

So the point isn’t to add abilities; adding abilities may actually diminish the interest of watching. On the other end of the spectrum, we’ve got the severely nerfed psionic storm. It now covers a piddly area [you need like four or five storms to saturate a 7/8 mineral+gas expo] and does less damage than the original. They say it’s been de-powered because the original was ‘too strong’. Damn right, it was too strong; look at SKY finals between Reach and BoxeR if you don’t believe me.

But that’s in the hands of a progamer in his prime, and it’s not like even he, the Mudang Protoss himself, was able to crush anyone as soon as he had storm tech. His zealot/archon/templar approach to PvZ is flashy and manly, but there are better ways of going about it. An ability with an incredibly high potential should not be scrapped simply because it, operating at top capacity, can win games. That’s the point of including abilities like that: a skilled user will be able to use said abilities to win, whereas a low skill player won't be able to get as much mileage from them.

OK, so we leave sad!Reach and go on to army control. In battle, with hundreds of supply engaged, you’re about as busy as you were in SC1. That’s good. But moving from battle to battle is rather dull. 1a. My entire army marches. Unlimited unit selection doesn’t help you too much in-battle [as most people probably guessed] but it basically means apm peaks and dips will be extremely exaggerated. I don’t like that.

This micro section seems like mostly criticism with very few bright spots. That’s something of a misrepresentation – I do think the micro aspect of the game is fun overall, and those sticking points I have are intended as constructive criticism to make it even better. I’d like to say that I do think they’re headed in the right direction with micro, they just haven’t gotten there yet. They’re toying with new abilities for the infester, new units like the nullifier; they’ve tampered with an increased-power psi-storm and such.

Macro

This is my main ‘needs fixing’ area, from what I saw. In my previous posts on the matter, I talked about how Dustin knows MBS needs to go, or at least needs some sort of alternative macro-intensive game addition. Aside from that, I’ve only one other thing about macro mechanics – the ‘other parts’.

So mid-late game here’s a scenario of me as a Terran player. 1a. OK, my army moved. 2tj. I just made 6 more tanks and 18 more jackals. 0s. Four more scvs. 3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs. Good to go for another six depots. A comparable SC1 version:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs; there are clicks after virtually each command too. It’s a gigantic difference, and not only in MBS. Queuing buildings is huge. I can queue an infinite amount of buildings, since I only have to pay for them once I start construction. So come midgame, I can just queue-queue-queue-queue and then forget entirely about depots.

Then you have your automine so workers are fire-and-forget, you have your mass building rally so GoRush can’t show off on bnet anymore – none of this helps with strategy, but the mechanical aspect is gone in more ways than one. Sure, you say, mechanics are easy, but iloveoov was a macro beast because of his game sense, not just mechanics.

And yes, I believe that economic decisions can be, and are, as multivariate and complex in SC2 as they are in SC1. But I also believe that part of the entertainment of SC1 is watching 300+ apm players [or being a 300+ apm player] and having the ability to pound out all those keys. I don’t think more apm should always result in a win, but I also don’t think that I should be able to macro perfectly with 50 apm.

It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.

Pacing

The pacing of SC2 feels similar to SC1. Slower, to be sure, but it’s because we were playing on ‘faster’ and not ‘fastest’; there was no ‘fastest’ option. Build timings will need to be reworked, but that’s not a big issue. I did find that the slightly slower pacing threw off some of my micro b/c I’d issue commands before things actually happened, but that’s not too important either. Some things, like reduced mineral count, make FE timings really iffy – you have to stop probes to 14nex [or even 15nex]; I’m not really sure why the minerals were reduced from 8x to 6x.

I must say that I was pleased with timing, though. Early game rushes were possible, but so were ‘safe’ expansion builds. Salvage and increased marine range makes bunker rush slightly more powerful, but minor issues like that aren’t really ‘pacing’ and can be fixed simply by changing a couple lines of code. The game moves along like a game of StarCraft insofar as how quickly units are produced and how quickly they die.

Conclusion

StarCraft II as a standalone game is, even in its current build, amazingly fun. There are bugs, there are imbalances, there are a good number of things I’d change, sure, but the feeling of the game is definitely StarCraft and not WarCraft III. The reason this post may seem critical is because I see so much potential in the project and want it to be as close to perfect as possible. I think the dev team is aware of many of the issues I brought up, and is addressing them accordingly. It was an honor to be invited to play the game, and I look forward to whenever the beta comes out.

For what it's worth, on my part, they have at least +1 StarCraft II sale.

Love and Luck,
LR

P.S. sorry about the textwalls and no-picture style :x semioldguy will have them up soon, when his internet decides to work.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 19:47:06
March 25 2008 19:45 GMT
#2
Good writeup, shows a lot about the game and a very insightful opinion full of examples and stuff, I do hope that Blizzard takes a good look at this and rethinks a few of their things (they don't have to change everything but there are a few things that are in need of dire improvement imho from reading your post).
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
March 25 2008 19:52 GMT
#3
Thanks for the very indepth writeup LR
I really don't think it's a good idea to be able to macro up to 200/200 without taking your eyes off of your harass units. Stuff like queuing depots in the late game is a bit excessive in the no-skill area.
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
ZeroCartin
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Costa Rica2390 Posts
March 25 2008 19:58 GMT
#4
Thanks for wititng all that down! I keep thinking to myself how did you remember all that stuff, hha XD

I hope blizzard notices ur concerns, and i hope many of those things get fixed. Specially tha macro stuff
"My sister is on vacation in Costa Rica right now. I hope she stays a while because she's a miserable cunt." -pubbanana
HyoSang
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States194 Posts
March 25 2008 20:04 GMT
#5
Last Romantic... You're a sexy sexy beast. Awesome writeup. very informative.

I feel you're explanation of the new macro system gives new viewpoint to the already raging MBS discussion.

The way that SC2 is running right now makes me fear that a CS: Source phenom will hapen with SC2 where all the Pro's stay with SC1 over SC2 because of small, but critical, game mechanics differences. Whereas in Source it was hitbox and movement changes, in SC2 i think it will be the queue system and MBS.
EE HAN TIMING!!
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
March 25 2008 20:05 GMT
#6
So basicly every single one of my fears for SC2 have turned out to be true... damn blizzard.
Anyway, thanks for the write up =)
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Reach)
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden7 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 20:12:56
March 25 2008 20:09 GMT
#7
I don't know what you are "complaining" about in the macro session. We can't stay in the past, the changes they have made with rally points etc are all very good and will make the game more fun in my opinnion.
The game will focus more on micro which is good.
nofAcedAgent
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States952 Posts
March 25 2008 20:12 GMT
#8
Nice write up man! Blizzard NEEDS to read this. (make it happen ;o)
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
March 25 2008 20:13 GMT
#9
ok that sounds good lol a lot better
thanks LR.
and clarification about MBS and overall general game flow is awesome.
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
ZergPowerrr
Profile Joined March 2008
20 Posts
March 25 2008 20:19 GMT
#10
Yeah, I knew it... SC2 will focus more on micro just as War3. I think there are too many similarities with War3, it's not a good thing.
OakHill
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States168 Posts
March 25 2008 20:19 GMT
#11
"I don't know what you are "complaining" about in the macro session. We can't stay in the past, the changes they have made with rally points etc are all very good and will make the game more fun in my opinnion.
The game will focus more on micro which is good."

Basically when you play the same game 10 years you don't want to have to have the focus of gameplay shift off of macro. That is the case here. He is upset that the skill gap will be smaller but regardless, this is Starcraft II, he can stick with Starcraft I if he wants a game where hand eye coordination and reflexes are more important than micromanagement, strategy, and timing (the new focus). Blizzard is not going to remove MBS, I could see them having it as a toggable option for custom games so that they can try to "humor" those that want it. He wasn't as harsh as I thought, so I'm glad he isn't completely blinded by his infatuation with the original. He does seem a little ignorant in my opinion to many topics.. like dragoon micro, yeah it's SO hard to "animation cancel" dragoons and talking about GUI is a bit ridiculous when 90% of it is probably placeholder.
MoNKeYSpanKeR
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2869 Posts
March 25 2008 20:19 GMT
#12
nice write up, i hope this countdown is so blizzard releases the demo to all of us so we can test it en mass Could be fun.
<3's Mani and Seraphim, thx for the second chance. TSL Name: TSL-mSLeGenD
MoNKeYSpanKeR
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2869 Posts
March 25 2008 20:21 GMT
#13
On March 26 2008 05:19 ZergPowerrr wrote:
Yeah, I knew it... SC2 will focus more on micro just as War3. I think there are too many similarities with War3, it's not a good thing.

Did you even read the entire post? He specifically said that it wasn't like wc3, and had more of the feel of starcraft.
<3's Mani and Seraphim, thx for the second chance. TSL Name: TSL-mSLeGenD
Jubblies
Profile Joined March 2008
United Kingdom6 Posts
March 25 2008 20:24 GMT
#14

FrozenArbiter wrote:

. 1a. OK, my army moved. 2tj. I just made 6 more tanks and 18 more jackals. 0s. Four more scvs. 3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs. Good to go for another six depots. A comparable SC1 version:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs; there are clicks after virtually each command too. It’s a gigantic difference, and not only in MBS. Queuing buildings is huge. I can queue an infinite amount of buildings, since I only have to pay for them once I start construction. So come midgame, I can just queue-queue-queue-queue and then forget entirely about depots.

-

So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


Have to disagree here, they did the right thing allowing building commands to be qued, since it reduce's so much micro tedium, which im sure will help more n00bs get into the game which means more popularity, more events, more tournies, and more $$$$$$ for blizzard. (and hopefully more fun)
"Jesus would build Battlecruisers" - Tasteless
sith
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2474 Posts
March 25 2008 20:29 GMT
#15
I have to disagree about the bit with buildings being queued. Ultimately zooming back to base to build more supply depos is just a waste of time for the player, why force them to do something so mundane and boring? Might as well let them have more time to micro and actually strategize, the real reasons the game exists. And besides, it's not like ordering units is the only part of macroing.
nofAcedAgent
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States952 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 20:32:37
March 25 2008 20:31 GMT
#16
Have to disagree here, they did the right thing allowing building commands to be qued, since it reduce's so much micro tedium, which im sure will help more n00bs get into the game which means more popularity, more events, more tournies, and more $$$$$$ for blizzard. (and hopefully more fun)


Do you play starcraft?

zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
March 25 2008 20:33 GMT
#17
Good write up. Interesting to hear your opinion.
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
March 25 2008 20:34 GMT
#18
I'm probably retarded, but why is it "2tj. I just made 6 more tanks and 18 more jackals." Wouldn't it be the same number of tanks and jackals if '2' was 6 factories? Or is it 18 factories but only 6 have the add-on that allow tanks?
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
Jubblies
Profile Joined March 2008
United Kingdom6 Posts
March 25 2008 20:39 GMT
#19
On March 26 2008 05:31 nofAcedAgent wrote:
Show nested quote +
Have to disagree here, they did the right thing allowing building commands to be qued, since it reduce's so much micro tedium, which im sure will help more n00bs get into the game which means more popularity, more events, more tournies, and more $$$$$$ for blizzard. (and hopefully more fun)


Do you play starcraft?



ya >
"Jesus would build Battlecruisers" - Tasteless
ibutoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Australia341 Posts
March 25 2008 20:48 GMT
#20
thanks for all 3 write ups. Hope blizz takes on your, and most of our issues with mbs.
Nada got Yooned
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FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

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