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StarCraft II: Liquid Insight [Part 3]

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Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 21:39:52
March 25 2008 19:36 GMT
#1
StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage
Part III: Thoughts on Gameplay


Sorry for the rather delayed posting of this particular piece. I’ve been held up by college admissions + illness + midterms + new car + some other random crap, but I should still have finished it earlier. Ah well; with no further ado, the third installment:

I’m not going to go on about each unit in detail [I did write pages of notes on them during the planeflight home, and then realized how pointless it was] because specific units change every week. I’m just going to give rather general impressions about various aspects of gameplay from my limited knowledge.

Note: This may seem overly critical: I want to reiterate that it's an enjoyable game headed in a StarCraft-ish direction; trust in Blizzard. I'm just noting differences that I felt as a StarCraft player, both good and ill.

Graphical Feel/UI

Much like Pusan, my initial reaction was “whoa, this game looks different”. The feeling stayed with me throughout the day – not bad, just not the same as SC1. The game lobby didn’t have a countdown, and didn’t have much space to display screennames [we were TL_LastRo… and (T1)TL_sem…] – two insignificant cosmetics that will most likely be fixed anyway.

As for in-game, a few key changes: above the center, you can see what your hotkeys are + what you have on each key. It’s one of those ‘modern RTS’ things that I’ve never really found a use for, but it might help people get into SC2, which is good. I’ve played SC1 for long enough that I always use the same keys in every matchup; I didn’t stray far from the usual when playing SC2 but I can see why they made the hotkey display.

Hovering mouse shows not only cost in minerals/gas/supply, but time-to-build as well. It’ll make build timings easier when the game finally does come out. While I didn’t attempt to innovate much due to time constraints, I can see how fine-tuning build orders will be easier – now amateurs, as well as pros, will have exact 1/4 supply builds.

Micro

As for unit control, I’ll start with some traditional things – TvP battle micro. So playing around with jackals and stalkers: Jackals control differently from vultures; stalkers are not quite like dragoons. The first is a rather big difference: no mines, lower damage, less per-unit worth [one jackal is less ‘good’ than one vulture in any given scenario, IMO] Then my experience with dragoon micro served me ill – hold position seems to operate differently with stalkers and immortals. Not that it ever truly mattered. Part of it was a question of comparative ranges. No longer do stalkers outrange marines; this changes the TvP earlygame considerably.

So analogous units don’t really handle the same – that would be cool if it introduced a ‘different’ aspect, but I feel that, at least in this particular example, it just dumbs down the game. With both range upgrades no longer there, it removes a “level”, if you will, of control. Take bunker vs dragoon. Originally, dragoon > marines; bunker > dragoon; range > bunker; rangerines > rangegoons. Several back-and-forth volleys of upgrades and buildings and units.

Now it’s just marines > stalkers. Whatcha gonna do about it ? Things like that strike me as iffy. Something else of note: the Battlecruiser. Your giant space cow is now rather useful alone, because of his plasma torpedoes. The upgrade gives you something that is reminiscent of psi storm, in that it decimates craploads of ground units [though not air]. OK, good, but.. but what? My gripe is that putting it on a 500 HP armored beast removes strategic elements – it’s too straightforward, too ‘unstoppable’. You, upon seeing this, are supposed to just bend over and grab your ankles. That’s not to say it’s imbalanced, it’s unstoppable. There’s a difference.

Let me elaborate more. So in SC1 you’ve got your HTs accompanying your zealot/goon/archon army, and bam! Cracklings swoop down and snipe a couple HTs before you can react, severely limiting your spell damage. For a few larvae and a couple hundred minerals, he’s saved himself five, even ten times as much. Can’t do that with a Mothership or a Battlecruiser – they’re too beefy; any sacrifice wouldn’t really be worth it. So, my first main point: superunits should not come with superspells.

Continuing my micro thoughts, then. Tata to the reaver, bye-bye medic, hasta la vista DA, adieu monsieur l’arbiter, goodnight scourge – bam! There goes all the Kim SungJe/Lee YoonYeol/Kang DoKyung name shouting. Cost-effective unit variance seems, to me, to be limited in the sequel. You’ve got forty-kill HTs and eighty-kill reavers in SCBW – nothing seems to have that potential in SC2. Many units seem too straightforward and easy-to-use, and not enough seem like they have hidden pizazz.

I am not saying ‘add an ability to every unit!’ but rather ‘make for flashier abilities’. Let’s bring up something else, the stalker’s blink. OK, so he can blink. Everyone knows he can blink. Soon enough, everyone can use blink. Blink allows anyone to do Reach vs TheRock on RoV with minimum effort since his surrounds are rendered pointless. What’s the fun in watching, then? Dragoon vs melee micro is so beautiful because there’s a vast difference between a progamer’s dragoon and an amateur’s dragoon.

So the point isn’t to add abilities; adding abilities may actually diminish the interest of watching. On the other end of the spectrum, we’ve got the severely nerfed psionic storm. It now covers a piddly area [you need like four or five storms to saturate a 7/8 mineral+gas expo] and does less damage than the original. They say it’s been de-powered because the original was ‘too strong’. Damn right, it was too strong; look at SKY finals between Reach and BoxeR if you don’t believe me.

But that’s in the hands of a progamer in his prime, and it’s not like even he, the Mudang Protoss himself, was able to crush anyone as soon as he had storm tech. His zealot/archon/templar approach to PvZ is flashy and manly, but there are better ways of going about it. An ability with an incredibly high potential should not be scrapped simply because it, operating at top capacity, can win games. That’s the point of including abilities like that: a skilled user will be able to use said abilities to win, whereas a low skill player won't be able to get as much mileage from them.

OK, so we leave sad!Reach and go on to army control. In battle, with hundreds of supply engaged, you’re about as busy as you were in SC1. That’s good. But moving from battle to battle is rather dull. 1a. My entire army marches. Unlimited unit selection doesn’t help you too much in-battle [as most people probably guessed] but it basically means apm peaks and dips will be extremely exaggerated. I don’t like that.

This micro section seems like mostly criticism with very few bright spots. That’s something of a misrepresentation – I do think the micro aspect of the game is fun overall, and those sticking points I have are intended as constructive criticism to make it even better. I’d like to say that I do think they’re headed in the right direction with micro, they just haven’t gotten there yet. They’re toying with new abilities for the infester, new units like the nullifier; they’ve tampered with an increased-power psi-storm and such.

Macro

This is my main ‘needs fixing’ area, from what I saw. In my previous posts on the matter, I talked about how Dustin knows MBS needs to go, or at least needs some sort of alternative macro-intensive game addition. Aside from that, I’ve only one other thing about macro mechanics – the ‘other parts’.

So mid-late game here’s a scenario of me as a Terran player. 1a. OK, my army moved. 2tj. I just made 6 more tanks and 18 more jackals. 0s. Four more scvs. 3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs. Good to go for another six depots. A comparable SC1 version:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs; there are clicks after virtually each command too. It’s a gigantic difference, and not only in MBS. Queuing buildings is huge. I can queue an infinite amount of buildings, since I only have to pay for them once I start construction. So come midgame, I can just queue-queue-queue-queue and then forget entirely about depots.

Then you have your automine so workers are fire-and-forget, you have your mass building rally so GoRush can’t show off on bnet anymore – none of this helps with strategy, but the mechanical aspect is gone in more ways than one. Sure, you say, mechanics are easy, but iloveoov was a macro beast because of his game sense, not just mechanics.

And yes, I believe that economic decisions can be, and are, as multivariate and complex in SC2 as they are in SC1. But I also believe that part of the entertainment of SC1 is watching 300+ apm players [or being a 300+ apm player] and having the ability to pound out all those keys. I don’t think more apm should always result in a win, but I also don’t think that I should be able to macro perfectly with 50 apm.

It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.

Pacing

The pacing of SC2 feels similar to SC1. Slower, to be sure, but it’s because we were playing on ‘faster’ and not ‘fastest’; there was no ‘fastest’ option. Build timings will need to be reworked, but that’s not a big issue. I did find that the slightly slower pacing threw off some of my micro b/c I’d issue commands before things actually happened, but that’s not too important either. Some things, like reduced mineral count, make FE timings really iffy – you have to stop probes to 14nex [or even 15nex]; I’m not really sure why the minerals were reduced from 8x to 6x.

I must say that I was pleased with timing, though. Early game rushes were possible, but so were ‘safe’ expansion builds. Salvage and increased marine range makes bunker rush slightly more powerful, but minor issues like that aren’t really ‘pacing’ and can be fixed simply by changing a couple lines of code. The game moves along like a game of StarCraft insofar as how quickly units are produced and how quickly they die.

Conclusion

StarCraft II as a standalone game is, even in its current build, amazingly fun. There are bugs, there are imbalances, there are a good number of things I’d change, sure, but the feeling of the game is definitely StarCraft and not WarCraft III. The reason this post may seem critical is because I see so much potential in the project and want it to be as close to perfect as possible. I think the dev team is aware of many of the issues I brought up, and is addressing them accordingly. It was an honor to be invited to play the game, and I look forward to whenever the beta comes out.

For what it's worth, on my part, they have at least +1 StarCraft II sale.

Love and Luck,
LR

P.S. sorry about the textwalls and no-picture style :x semioldguy will have them up soon, when his internet decides to work.
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Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 19:47:06
March 25 2008 19:45 GMT
#2
Good writeup, shows a lot about the game and a very insightful opinion full of examples and stuff, I do hope that Blizzard takes a good look at this and rethinks a few of their things (they don't have to change everything but there are a few things that are in need of dire improvement imho from reading your post).
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
March 25 2008 19:52 GMT
#3
Thanks for the very indepth writeup LR
I really don't think it's a good idea to be able to macro up to 200/200 without taking your eyes off of your harass units. Stuff like queuing depots in the late game is a bit excessive in the no-skill area.
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
ZeroCartin
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Costa Rica2390 Posts
March 25 2008 19:58 GMT
#4
Thanks for wititng all that down! I keep thinking to myself how did you remember all that stuff, hha XD

I hope blizzard notices ur concerns, and i hope many of those things get fixed. Specially tha macro stuff
"My sister is on vacation in Costa Rica right now. I hope she stays a while because she's a miserable cunt." -pubbanana
HyoSang
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States194 Posts
March 25 2008 20:04 GMT
#5
Last Romantic... You're a sexy sexy beast. Awesome writeup. very informative.

I feel you're explanation of the new macro system gives new viewpoint to the already raging MBS discussion.

The way that SC2 is running right now makes me fear that a CS: Source phenom will hapen with SC2 where all the Pro's stay with SC1 over SC2 because of small, but critical, game mechanics differences. Whereas in Source it was hitbox and movement changes, in SC2 i think it will be the queue system and MBS.
EE HAN TIMING!!
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
March 25 2008 20:05 GMT
#6
So basicly every single one of my fears for SC2 have turned out to be true... damn blizzard.
Anyway, thanks for the write up =)
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Reach)
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden7 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 20:12:56
March 25 2008 20:09 GMT
#7
I don't know what you are "complaining" about in the macro session. We can't stay in the past, the changes they have made with rally points etc are all very good and will make the game more fun in my opinnion.
The game will focus more on micro which is good.
nofAcedAgent
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States952 Posts
March 25 2008 20:12 GMT
#8
Nice write up man! Blizzard NEEDS to read this. (make it happen ;o)
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
March 25 2008 20:13 GMT
#9
ok that sounds good lol a lot better
thanks LR.
and clarification about MBS and overall general game flow is awesome.
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
ZergPowerrr
Profile Joined March 2008
20 Posts
March 25 2008 20:19 GMT
#10
Yeah, I knew it... SC2 will focus more on micro just as War3. I think there are too many similarities with War3, it's not a good thing.
OakHill
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States168 Posts
March 25 2008 20:19 GMT
#11
"I don't know what you are "complaining" about in the macro session. We can't stay in the past, the changes they have made with rally points etc are all very good and will make the game more fun in my opinnion.
The game will focus more on micro which is good."

Basically when you play the same game 10 years you don't want to have to have the focus of gameplay shift off of macro. That is the case here. He is upset that the skill gap will be smaller but regardless, this is Starcraft II, he can stick with Starcraft I if he wants a game where hand eye coordination and reflexes are more important than micromanagement, strategy, and timing (the new focus). Blizzard is not going to remove MBS, I could see them having it as a toggable option for custom games so that they can try to "humor" those that want it. He wasn't as harsh as I thought, so I'm glad he isn't completely blinded by his infatuation with the original. He does seem a little ignorant in my opinion to many topics.. like dragoon micro, yeah it's SO hard to "animation cancel" dragoons and talking about GUI is a bit ridiculous when 90% of it is probably placeholder.
MoNKeYSpanKeR
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2869 Posts
March 25 2008 20:19 GMT
#12
nice write up, i hope this countdown is so blizzard releases the demo to all of us so we can test it en mass Could be fun.
<3's Mani and Seraphim, thx for the second chance. TSL Name: TSL-mSLeGenD
MoNKeYSpanKeR
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2869 Posts
March 25 2008 20:21 GMT
#13
On March 26 2008 05:19 ZergPowerrr wrote:
Yeah, I knew it... SC2 will focus more on micro just as War3. I think there are too many similarities with War3, it's not a good thing.

Did you even read the entire post? He specifically said that it wasn't like wc3, and had more of the feel of starcraft.
<3's Mani and Seraphim, thx for the second chance. TSL Name: TSL-mSLeGenD
Jubblies
Profile Joined March 2008
United Kingdom6 Posts
March 25 2008 20:24 GMT
#14

FrozenArbiter wrote:

. 1a. OK, my army moved. 2tj. I just made 6 more tanks and 18 more jackals. 0s. Four more scvs. 3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs. Good to go for another six depots. A comparable SC1 version:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs; there are clicks after virtually each command too. It’s a gigantic difference, and not only in MBS. Queuing buildings is huge. I can queue an infinite amount of buildings, since I only have to pay for them once I start construction. So come midgame, I can just queue-queue-queue-queue and then forget entirely about depots.

-

So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


Have to disagree here, they did the right thing allowing building commands to be qued, since it reduce's so much micro tedium, which im sure will help more n00bs get into the game which means more popularity, more events, more tournies, and more $$$$$$ for blizzard. (and hopefully more fun)
"Jesus would build Battlecruisers" - Tasteless
sith
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United States2474 Posts
March 25 2008 20:29 GMT
#15
I have to disagree about the bit with buildings being queued. Ultimately zooming back to base to build more supply depos is just a waste of time for the player, why force them to do something so mundane and boring? Might as well let them have more time to micro and actually strategize, the real reasons the game exists. And besides, it's not like ordering units is the only part of macroing.
nofAcedAgent
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States952 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 20:32:37
March 25 2008 20:31 GMT
#16
Have to disagree here, they did the right thing allowing building commands to be qued, since it reduce's so much micro tedium, which im sure will help more n00bs get into the game which means more popularity, more events, more tournies, and more $$$$$$ for blizzard. (and hopefully more fun)


Do you play starcraft?

zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
March 25 2008 20:33 GMT
#17
Good write up. Interesting to hear your opinion.
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
March 25 2008 20:34 GMT
#18
I'm probably retarded, but why is it "2tj. I just made 6 more tanks and 18 more jackals." Wouldn't it be the same number of tanks and jackals if '2' was 6 factories? Or is it 18 factories but only 6 have the add-on that allow tanks?
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
Jubblies
Profile Joined March 2008
United Kingdom6 Posts
March 25 2008 20:39 GMT
#19
On March 26 2008 05:31 nofAcedAgent wrote:
Show nested quote +
Have to disagree here, they did the right thing allowing building commands to be qued, since it reduce's so much micro tedium, which im sure will help more n00bs get into the game which means more popularity, more events, more tournies, and more $$$$$$ for blizzard. (and hopefully more fun)


Do you play starcraft?



ya >
"Jesus would build Battlecruisers" - Tasteless
ibutoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
Australia341 Posts
March 25 2008 20:48 GMT
#20
thanks for all 3 write ups. Hope blizz takes on your, and most of our issues with mbs.
Nada got Yooned
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
March 25 2008 20:52 GMT
#21
Thanks for the write-up Lou. I'm jealous :D
Official Entusman #21
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 21:02:24
March 25 2008 20:53 GMT
#22
Good writeup, i am really concerned about the macro-situation.. i hope they will make some way of making the gap between the bad and good players WIDER or equally to SC1 and not SMALLER.

Giving bad and noobish players these kind of tools like MBS etc is not going to help the game as a competitive e-sport at all, it will only make the game random where less skill is involved.

Starcraft 1 is a game that takes year to be become good at, and the same case should be with Starcraft 2. Making it so, may not attract more people to the game, but it will however help the longetivity of the game, aswell as the pro-scene and community.

You want to be able to look at a game between two pros in SC2 and say "wow, wtf how did he do that?", "I have no idea how to do that" "Thats looks hard to do" etc.

This is THE most important issue of Starcraft 2 - making it challenging and difficult to be good at, but still have an aspect of it that attracts more and new people.

I just hope Blizzard can pull it off.
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 20:56:00
March 25 2008 20:55 GMT
#23
On March 26 2008 05:34 Ancestral wrote:
I'm probably retarded, but why is it "2tj. I just made 6 more tanks and 18 more jackals." Wouldn't it be the same number of tanks and jackals if '2' was 6 factories? Or is it 18 factories but only 6 have the add-on that allow tanks?


6 facs w/ tech, 9 facs w/ reactor; 15 facs wasn't too uncommon.

as for the macro/micro balance, Blizzard says that their goal in SC2 is to make them roughly equal; they realize that the game is more micro-tilted now but they want to rebalance it.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
Spaceball
Profile Joined November 2007
United States213 Posts
March 25 2008 21:02 GMT
#24
Nice writeup!

I really dislike the idea of queued units and buildings not costing resources until its their turn to be built. That just dumbs down the game further than it needs to be.... learning not to tie up resources like that is something that has a big impact on games, leave it in.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
March 25 2008 21:02 GMT
#25
Interesting read. I'm sure all of us who haven't gotten to play it yet appreciate it. I know I do!
Moderator
Famehunter
Profile Joined August 2007
Canada586 Posts
March 25 2008 21:03 GMT
#26
As long as they dont mess too much with queuing build orders because its a feature I really really enjoyed in war3.
I dont mind limiting MBS and unit selections but plz dont touch queuing!!!
Velox Versutus vigilans
Centric
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1989 Posts
March 25 2008 21:04 GMT
#27
On March 26 2008 05:39 Jubblies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2008 05:31 nofAcedAgent wrote:
Have to disagree here, they did the right thing allowing building commands to be qued, since it reduce's so much micro tedium, which im sure will help more n00bs get into the game which means more popularity, more events, more tournies, and more $$$$$$ for blizzard. (and hopefully more fun)


Do you play starcraft?



ya >


Liar.
Super serious.
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 21:05:43
March 25 2008 21:05 GMT
#28
On March 26 2008 06:03 Famehunter wrote:
As long as they dont mess too much with queuing build orders because its a feature I really really enjoyed in war3.
I dont mind limiting MBS and unit selections but plz dont touch queuing!!!


I think a good fix for queuing would just be to charge you when you make the order; that way you can 'queue' but it also means you sacrifice some efficiency in money use [since it's 'wasted money' for a little while]

edit: and yes I did tell Dustin this.
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
Response
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States1936 Posts
March 25 2008 21:08 GMT
#29
wowow you just made sc2 sound even worse than i imagined
the REAL ReSpOnSe
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 21:10:53
March 25 2008 21:10 GMT
#30
On March 26 2008 06:08 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
wowow you just made sc2 sound even worse than i imagined


Yeah it's really not my intention - it was really fun, and it's a good game.

I don't think SC2 should be an SC1 clone with 3D graphics; I do want it to be a different game so units handling different isn't bad per se. What I don't want is units to handle differently and be boring; like how muta micro isn't even possible. [They're fixing that]
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
o3.power91
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Bahrain5288 Posts
March 25 2008 21:15 GMT
#31
Thx for the write up LR

IMO building queuing is not really a good idea. It heavily reduces the need for multitasking like LR said in the OP. The fact that there is no building queue in SC is one of the many reasons i like SC over WC3. Im no good at multitasking though but i find that it makes SC a lot more fun

The next thing we need is the ability to multiselect buildings and mass produce units that way... -_-
Malcolm
Profile Joined April 2006
Spain61 Posts
March 25 2008 21:21 GMT
#32
Nice read. Thank you for this text walls, but easy to read.

I think that this is one of the biggest analisys and most starcraftish one than i've even read. Im glad to see someone who understand starcraft mechanichs and he has played SCII. I mean, thank you to export all starcraft mechanichs to SCII mechanichs and show'em up. When i've read the macro part, i was so sad...
Now make me feel it! make me feel alive again!! Good, now we can fight as warriors. hand to hand. It is the basis of all combat. Only a fool trusts his life to a weapon.
LonelyMargarita
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
1845 Posts
March 25 2008 21:41 GMT
#33
Nice write-up. Removing or nerfing all the units and spells the Korean casters would shout so emphatically without decent replacements is another unsuspected blow. While I don't think it's as bad as the macro situation, there seems to be no even semi-rational reason for it (unlike the "easier to master" reason for easier macro).

I find it amusing that everyone with under 10 posts in the thread disagrees with your points.
I <3 서지훈
Proposal
Profile Joined December 2007
United States1310 Posts
March 25 2008 21:45 GMT
#34
Thanks for write-up. Seems to me, at least from your view, MBS is killing macro as we know it
Gokey
Profile Joined November 2006
United States2722 Posts
March 25 2008 21:51 GMT
#35
hmm... i am somewhat worried about the state of the game after reading your article... i understand that the game is still FUN to play, but it doesn't seem like it has the trimmings that made it such a great spectator game to watch...

seriously, i think blizzard need about 5-10 testers like you, last romantic, to give them expert feedback even this early in the development... this shit is very very subtle, and takes someone who plays competitive starcraft to understand
Elric
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom1327 Posts
March 25 2008 21:55 GMT
#36
Thanks for the write-up LR and in particular for its honesty. I really hope Blizzard take heed of everything that you mentioned. Overall, I feel extremely apprehensive that SC2 will have anything like the same esport potential as SC1 now. However, as people have mentioned lots of times, Blizzard are very flexible with their game builds so they may yet restore my faith.

And what's with the random posters coming out of nowhere talking crap. The fool talking about how it is great that the game is shifting more to micro has obviously forgotten that this SC2 and not WC4. If he knew as much as his bloated post tried to make out, he would know the simplest fundamental underlying SC1, i.e. macro and micro were as important as the other.
NotSupporting
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1998 Posts
March 25 2008 21:58 GMT
#37
My dream right now is that SC2 will just fail and die out. Seriously, I don't think Blizz will change much when it comes to the macro part.

What I am scared of is not the fact that SC2 will be good or not as a e-sport, but more how it will change SC1. In my eyes it's going good for SC1 right now and we foreigners are getting more in to the korean progaming, I don't want this to be destroyed.
nofAcedAgent
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States952 Posts
March 25 2008 22:12 GMT
#38
On March 26 2008 06:51 Gokey wrote:
hmm... i am somewhat worried about the state of the game after reading your article... i understand that the game is still FUN to play, but it doesn't seem like it has the trimmings that made it such a great spectator game to watch...

seriously, i think blizzard need about 5-10 testers like you, last romantic, to give them expert feedback even this early in the development... this shit is very very subtle, and takes someone who plays competitive starcraft to understand


Exactly. Q.F.T.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-25 22:30:43
March 25 2008 22:18 GMT
#39
On March 26 2008 05:24 Jubblies wrote:
Show nested quote +

FrozenArbiter wrote:

. 1a. OK, my army moved. 2tj. I just made 6 more tanks and 18 more jackals. 0s. Four more scvs. 3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs. Good to go for another six depots. A comparable SC1 version:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs; there are clicks after virtually each command too. It’s a gigantic difference, and not only in MBS. Queuing buildings is huge. I can queue an infinite amount of buildings, since I only have to pay for them once I start construction. So come midgame, I can just queue-queue-queue-queue and then forget entirely about depots.

-

So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


Have to disagree here, they did the right thing allowing building commands to be qued, since it reduce's so much micro tedium, which im sure will help more n00bs get into the game which means more popularity, more events, more tournies, and more $$$$$$ for blizzard. (and hopefully more fun)

How the hell did my name get into the quote? Last Romantic was the guy who wrote it !

Awesome reports btw, thanks for writing them =]
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Krohm
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada1857 Posts
March 25 2008 22:21 GMT
#40
Very good write up. I'm really worried about the outcome of Macro once Sc2 is released. I mean, I don't want MBS removed. Due to the fact that I really do enjoy Micro over Macro. But at the same time, wanting that, completely destroys Macro. Ugh I don't know what to think about Sc2 anymore.
Not bad for a cat toy.
semioldguy
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
United States7488 Posts
March 25 2008 22:28 GMT
#41
On March 26 2008 04:36 Last Romantic wrote:
... semioldguy will have them up soon, when his internet decides to work.


I have been stuck not at home, I should get something up shortly though. Though most of my pictures have more to do with the Blizzard building/facility rather than specifically SC2.
Moderator
Jubblies
Profile Joined March 2008
United Kingdom6 Posts
March 25 2008 22:32 GMT
#42
On March 26 2008 07:18 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2008 05:24 Jubblies wrote:

FrozenArbiter wrote:

. 1a. OK, my army moved. 2tj. I just made 6 more tanks and 18 more jackals. 0s. Four more scvs. 3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs. Good to go for another six depots. A comparable SC1 version:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs; there are clicks after virtually each command too. It’s a gigantic difference, and not only in MBS. Queuing buildings is huge. I can queue an infinite amount of buildings, since I only have to pay for them once I start construction. So come midgame, I can just queue-queue-queue-queue and then forget entirely about depots.

-

So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


Have to disagree here, they did the right thing allowing building commands to be qued, since it reduce's so much micro tedium, which im sure will help more n00bs get into the game which means more popularity, more events, more tournies, and more $$$$$$ for blizzard. (and hopefully more fun)

How the hell did my name get into the quote? Last Romantic was the guy who wrote it !


ah my bad soz!

Back on topic, I just hope its fun to play. I know that MBS is being critically debated here, and I know that without it, (aka SC1) the gap between pros and n00bs was BIG, but to be completely honest, its just such a great feature to include. There are other ways of making macro managing harder thou, which I expect will develop more, eg WI for the protoss, therefore I expect MBS will remain but they will add more ways to make macro managing "harder" (at higher levels)for each race.
"Jesus would build Battlecruisers" - Tasteless
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
March 25 2008 22:38 GMT
#43
On March 26 2008 07:12 nofAcedAgent wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2008 06:51 Gokey wrote:
hmm... i am somewhat worried about the state of the game after reading your article... i understand that the game is still FUN to play, but it doesn't seem like it has the trimmings that made it such a great spectator game to watch...

seriously, i think blizzard need about 5-10 testers like you, last romantic, to give them expert feedback even this early in the development... this shit is very very subtle, and takes someone who plays competitive starcraft to understand


Exactly. Q.F.T.

Yeah I also think that'd be helpful but I think Blizzard will be patient during the beta and catch up on these things when the time comes. It seems to me that the subtle things are not noticed by and do not affect 90%+ of the players of BW. Assuming the same for SC2, Blizzard can design their game now to meet the vision intended for the average user and then make subtle changes during beta to satisfy the high-end competitors and fans without the average users even noticing.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Avius
Profile Joined October 2007
Iraq1796 Posts
March 25 2008 22:45 GMT
#44
thanks for the awesome writeup LR, alot of important points were covered and answered a huge amount of my questions, cheers
aka. Samael
Jayson X
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Switzerland2431 Posts
March 25 2008 22:56 GMT
#45
Last Romantic is see how you like the game for what it is, a computer game.
That's not really something i do care about, i play a game 15 hours and then throw it away. What i care about the most is how much potential e-sport wise it has. Are there signals...is there a basis that could generate such a hype like starcraft1. Can you imagine hundrets and thousands of fans on their toes when watching this game? Cheering and screaming at certain situations?

I'm interessted in what you think about the big picture of starcraft2. A game is just a game, but can it be a sport?
TheDarKo
Profile Joined March 2008
Sweden109 Posts
March 25 2008 23:46 GMT
#46
Nice writeup, now get me the beta! :D
~: They made me do iT :~ (Fan of SlayerS_`BoxeR` & sAviOr)
Titusmaster6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5937 Posts
March 26 2008 00:05 GMT
#47
This is terrible news, the macro, not the write-up. Thanks LR, you pretty much cleared up all of my questions about micro and macro.

I just want to say a big fuck you to all the people who support the macro of SC2 right now.
Shorts down shorts up, BOOM, just like that.
TheOvermind77
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States923 Posts
March 26 2008 00:56 GMT
#48
On March 26 2008 09:05 Titusmaster6 wrote:
This is terrible news, the macro, not the write-up. Thanks LR, you pretty much cleared up all of my questions about micro and macro.

I just want to say a big fuck you to all the people who support the macro of SC2 right now.


Yeah, it's a great idea to curse the average, casual gamer, who will be creating most of the sales revenue for this game and who wants to have an enjoyable time playing it.

Great write up though, I'm real interested to see what DB and crew do in these next few months as things get even more refined.
Awaken my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright. Know that I am the Overmind; the eternal will of the Swarm, and that you have been created to serve me.
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-26 01:53:48
March 26 2008 01:24 GMT
#49
Thanks for the writeup LR.

If Blizzard ends up not implementing SBS, what do you guys think of an alternative unhotkeyable MBS system, such as the following?

-Allow multiple buildings to be selected at the same time only by double-click or ctrl-click on a single building (i.e. select all visible buildings) OR by shift clicking multiple buildings to add to your selection.

-No drag selection for buildings (make them distinct from units, afaik not in current build anyways).

-Allow hotkey of max one building at a time (hotkey ability could also be entirely removed to preserve the notion that buildings are distinct from units and to make the UI more uniform rather than an arbitrary limit of one per hotkey)

I'm going to list a few pros and cons of the UI options out there.


MBS
PROS:
- More user-friendly; better suited to both new and casual players; shorter learning curve
- The UI standard in RTS today; won't feel outdated
- Makes rally points and warp gate usage much more practical

CONS:
- Reduces multitasking requirement
- Shifts the macro-micro balance away from the macro side of the scale (could also be a pro depending on point of view)
- Amplifies the effect of auto-mining by allowing all nexus to be selected together (could also be a pro depending on point of view)


MBS (hotkey max 1 building at a time)
PROS:
- Retains multitasking requirement
- Will not necessarily feel out of place for new or casual players, because vast majority of players people who are new to RTS do not use hotkeys for buildings. (i.e. Dustin Browder's interview of how he selects all of his buildings each time he had to build)
- Inflexible system for producing a specific mix of desired units from a single building type once you have more than 5 production buildings --> must click individually when fine-tuning is required
- Similar to SC for first ~8 mins of game (while # of hotkeys are still sufficient for unit production buildings)
- Will never allow you to select more than one nexus at a time --> no amplification of auto-mining
- Makes rally points and warp gate usage much more practical
- Invalidates the "repetitive clicking as primary skill" criticism of the UI from most uninformed players

CONS:
- UI may feel unintuitive (However, the people who would complain about it, would actually dislike SBS far more, even if it is more intuitive).



IMO, unhotkeyable MBS is a good compromise of the UI for both the casual and the competitive scene. It retains the multitasking (forcing you to return to your base), while removing the "cloning" of the repeated building clicks that is the primary criticism of SBS. It isn't necessarily that unintuitive if you just think of buildings as different entities from units.
wurm
Profile Joined October 2007
Philippines2296 Posts
March 26 2008 01:40 GMT
#50
They've taken away so much from the macro side. T_T

Great article though, LR!
I know where my towel is.
Anthius
Profile Joined March 2008
1 Post
March 26 2008 02:10 GMT
#51
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. This is very helpful for those of us who haven't played the game yet. Blizzard should definitely consider inviting you back for more time with the game especially if you agree to provide them with more well written analysis of the gameplay.


I wanted to ask:
I found this line on sc2blog: "The match summary screen now contains informative graphs as well as the old number statistics."

Can you expand on this at all? Thanks.


link: http://www.sc2blog.com/2008/03/16/starcraft-2-korean-and-chinese-build-summary/

useLess
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4781 Posts
March 26 2008 02:39 GMT
#52
Im not too worried about it right now. For instance, the thing with the marines and bunker vs goons. Even though those units and upgrades have been there since the beginning, it probably took a while for people to realize the counters and use them appropriately. Moreover, and its been said plenty of times, they have many patches and years to perfect it. Its not like they decided goons > rine, bunker > goons, etc when they released the game and such. This is Blizzard: quality games at the cost of many delays and time.
Moonlight Shadow
Mx.DeeP
Profile Joined February 2008
China25 Posts
March 26 2008 02:42 GMT
#53
I have to argue here that starcraft ii being a good computer game and a good competitive sport the way we know it are totally different things, and I'm definitely hoping for the latter. There are tons of good games, RTS or not, that I can go out and pick up for a couple dollars, play for a week or so, or in the case of AMAZING games, maybe even more than a month. Then, I get bored and move on. This was not how SC and BW worked for me. The thing is, people ask what the point of having "tedious" macro tasks like constantly building depots or clicking down a row of factories is. The only thing I can say is, you'll think it's dumb until you've actually gotten past beginner level. It's just the idea of having to do everything yourself while knowing your opponent has to do the same that gives the the game its incredible pace and its watchability. I mean, who wants to watch a game with 50 apm players? Even if that's all the apm they need, you get to see them click attack move and wait around for a bit.

No doubt, Starcraft II will be a great computer game, but from what I've read of this write-up (great write-up, btw ^^) it's not going to be a great competitive sport unless they make some changes. I don't exactly know the numbers in terms of how much Blizzard makes from the Korean pro scene, but that's where the longevity of BW comes from. All the guys who like MBS, auto-mining, etc. probably aren't going to be playing 10 years from now.
BlackStar
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Netherlands3029 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-26 02:57:59
March 26 2008 02:50 GMT
#54
I wonder if infinite building queue will make not hitting your supply cap easier with terran.

I mean, you can't 'infinitely' queue up with protoss because then your probe would immediately make 'infinite' pylons. Same limitation with zerg.


Ooh, it also seems to me they aren't making SC2 with esports in mind at all. I thought that was the big reason to make SC2, to reinamgine it but this time consciously make it an esports title rather than by accident.
Are they just not trying or do they lack the competence? Because obviously a good video game is something totally different from a good esports video game.
GeneralStan
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States4789 Posts
March 26 2008 02:53 GMT
#55
The most interesting part to me is the lack of flashy abilities.

I think this one really really needs to be addressed. In Brood War, there were spells that created pandamoneum in a stadium full of Koreans when they went off well. Plague, Psi Storm, Spider Mines. All abilities that had a visceral impact, and a tremendous game impact, and without that same sort of ability, I see Starcraft II missing a component of what made the original what it is.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
March 26 2008 03:28 GMT
#56
On March 26 2008 11:53 GeneralStan wrote:
The most interesting part to me is the lack of flashy abilities.

I think this one really really needs to be addressed. In Brood War, there were spells that created pandamoneum in a stadium full of Koreans when they went off well. Plague, Psi Storm, Spider Mines. All abilities that had a visceral impact, and a tremendous game impact, and without that same sort of ability, I see Starcraft II missing a component of what made the original what it is.


To me that's the key point - 'WHEN they went off well'

The current superspells like black hole and plasma torpedoes have a very low failure rate, so it's not nearly as interesting =/
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
March 26 2008 04:00 GMT
#57

And yes, I believe that economic decisions can be, and are, as multivariate and complex in SC2 as they are in SC1. But I also believe that part of the entertainment of SC1 is watching 300+ apm players [or being a 300+ apm player] and having the ability to pound out all those keys. I don’t think more apm should always result in a win, but I also don’t think that I should be able to macro perfectly with 50 apm.

It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


This has always been my main concern with mbs.

I really hope its fixed
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
snowbird
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Germany2044 Posts
March 26 2008 04:00 GMT
#58
On March 26 2008 04:36 Last Romantic wrote:
<font size=4>StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage</font>
<font size=3>Part III: Thoughts on Gameplay</font>


It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.

There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.

I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!

You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.

Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!

Well, that's my view.
@riotsnowbird
Re-Play-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Dominican Republic825 Posts
March 26 2008 04:13 GMT
#59
can you please tell this to blizzard they have to read this!!!
P1: Best rank? P2:1st time iccup, P1:really? P1 looks at the account of P2 WOW B+ last season ^^
ItchReliever
Profile Joined April 2004
2489 Posts
March 26 2008 04:42 GMT
#60
good post snowbird and nice article as well
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-26 05:39:17
March 26 2008 05:36 GMT
#61
On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2008 04:36 Last Romantic wrote:
<font size=4>StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage</font>
<font size=3>Part III: Thoughts on Gameplay</font>


It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.


ummm oov has to push 3tj0s while harassing
noob has to push 3tj0s while harassing
clearly the noob wont be able to keep up in macro
wait, what?


There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.

I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!

thats micro, not macro.

You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.

Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!

Well, that's my view.


Actually ignore this.
It should probably be debated in the mbs thread.
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
TheOvermind77
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States923 Posts
March 26 2008 05:55 GMT
#62
On March 26 2008 13:42 ItchReliever wrote:
good post snowbird and nice article as well


I agree. Unfortunately I don't think this MBS debate will EVER be resolved until the game is released. I do agree entirely that MBS will only increase the ability of people to micro while macroing at the same time. Expo harassing, battles, maneuvering...ohhh, it would be so awesome to watch progamers do all of that micro at once!

And fusion, you make it sound a BIT oversimplified. Just because a noob can queue up his units at the same speed as the pro doesn't necessarily mean a thing...you have to know WHAT to queue and WHEN to queue it alongside WHAT to build and WHEN to build it. And if a noob can do all of those things at the pro level but just can't type fast enough...then what's the problem with letting him have MBS?

The thing is what separates noobs from pros isn't necessarily speed but most often execution of strategy, knowing counters, good micro, and good economy maintenance (expanding, knowing what to build when, etc).

And c'mon, most TRUE noobs don't even use major hotkeys. I rarely see a game lost due to macro speed instead of some sort of economic or strategic decision.
Awaken my child, and embrace the glory that is your birthright. Know that I am the Overmind; the eternal will of the Swarm, and that you have been created to serve me.
lepape
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada557 Posts
March 26 2008 08:30 GMT
#63
On March 26 2008 14:55 TheOvermind77 wrote:

And fusion, you make it sound a BIT oversimplified. Just because a noob can queue up his units at the same speed as the pro doesn't necessarily mean a thing...you have to know WHAT to queue and WHEN to queue it alongside WHAT to build and WHEN to build it. And if a noob can do all of those things at the pro level but just can't type fast enough...then what's the problem with letting him have MBS?

The thing is what separates noobs from pros isn't necessarily speed but most often execution of strategy, knowing counters, good micro, and good economy maintenance (expanding, knowing what to build when, etc).

And c'mon, most TRUE noobs don't even use major hotkeys. I rarely see a game lost due to macro speed instead of some sort of economic or strategic decision.


There's two things important to master in any strategy game: the theory (timing, builds, counters, etc.), and the execution (micro, multi-tasking). What separates a good player from a great player is rarely the game knowledge itself, but the execution. Strategy will always be part of Starcraft, but if you reduce the relative importance of execution in the gameplay, it means you also reduce the gap between good, great players, and pros.

(Also, by making macromanagement considerably easier, that also reduces the usefulness of harassing, because harassing won't affect the opposing player's ability to produce units, workers and buildings nearly as much.)
vhallee
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
899 Posts
March 26 2008 08:39 GMT
#64
good writeup. its nice to hear the opinion of ppl who actually played sc2. there is some truth in your words and i hope blizzard will read this.
Marijuana causes amnesia and other things I don't remember.
Crimson)S(hadow
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Philippines545 Posts
March 26 2008 08:49 GMT
#65
come on guys those macro mechanics are rediculous. if any of you are competitive with 200+ apm, which i think like 70%+ of this place is, then sc2 utterly kills our way of using our paints and brushes (keyboards and mouses) in quick precise strokes to create our artowrk.

then agian, sc is THE deepest game ever made, and i never did expect a game to surpass it witin the next century or so. and to this point i have yet to know a game to surpass it. to me its a masterpiece where you can make your own art, and to have our family (sc1 community) be diminished by a sequal unfitting for sc's former glory in gamepaly dynamics is just a shame
"It's the end of the BW era which i devoted everything to for 10 years. I tried playing sc2, but my BW memories run too deep; I felt like I was playing an entirely different game" -ToSsGirL
Crimson)S(hadow
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Philippines545 Posts
March 26 2008 08:56 GMT
#66
There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.

I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!

----------------------

do you play starcraft? thats the beauty in it all, striving for perfection in a game that takes super human like speed and mind to accomplish. it is possible for progamers to play much more perfect, and competition slowly gets us closer to that. plus theres the mindgames in guessing counters, hiding proxies to it all. its all art.

sc1 is like graphite shading gradations, it will never be perfect but you always try

but sc2 is like those new art computer programs where the shadings will be pixel perfect. i hope progamers don't leave sc for such a crappy sequal
"It's the end of the BW era which i devoted everything to for 10 years. I tried playing sc2, but my BW memories run too deep; I felt like I was playing an entirely different game" -ToSsGirL
Retsukage
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1002 Posts
March 26 2008 08:57 GMT
#67
I feel there is alot you have not addressed and alot you have also left unexplained. For example it is obvious the game UI is incomplete so why complain about it? Just as well about the display of hotkeys, have you thought about how intresting it would be to see a pros hotkey movement and arrangement changes especially for players who are learning?
I apologize for any errors in this post and its briefness, but I was writing it on my phone lol.
To change is to improve, to change often is to be perfect - Winston Chruchill
gondolin
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
France332 Posts
March 26 2008 08:59 GMT
#68
Well maybe we can make a comparison with competitive warcraft. In warcraft the macro seem even easier, because there is mbs, not many expansions and way less producing building. Yet macro still has it's importance, and a newb will macro a lot less well than a pro, even if he doesn't realize this (watch a game by Moon or any HuVSUd). Macro doesn't take time in warcraft, but it is important (but still way less important than macro in starcraft i agree).

The time gained is utilized to harass better by programer (they will often creep with part of their army, harass with a hero, scout with a peon) at the same time, and noob will try to copy them but they will be far off in execution (fast creeping, last hit denying). So there is a LARGE skill difference between an amateur and a pro in warcraft, it is less obvious to see it than in starcraft but it is present nonetheless.

So even with mbs in starcraftII, i have absolutly no doubt that a pro will still crush a good amateur without trouble. But i agree we could try to find way to make macro even harder (with do not mean more time consuming, it can be a solution, but i would be happy if apm was all used for micro and multiple harass, and macro was about game sense, timing, strategy and difficult diffusion, it would make a good macroer with low apm but a great strategical mind a chance against some insane apmer, ant it would be good imho).

[sorry for being a bit off-topic in my last paragraph, i just wanted to point there is a large skill difference in warcraft between a good amateur and a pro, even if the difference is less obvious to see than in warcraft, it is more hidden for the non connaisseur).
Mowse
Profile Joined October 2007
South Africa56 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-26 13:43:55
March 26 2008 13:21 GMT
#69
uh Crimson how exactly is an audience going to follow like 3-4 attacks at multiple places on a map..
Jayson X
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Switzerland2431 Posts
March 26 2008 13:22 GMT
#70
On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.

There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.

I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!

You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.

Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!

Well, that's my view.



One word. Critical Mass.
There comes a point in any rts game were having less force means defeat. That guerilla style is nothing but a pipedream. It's all action and reaction. If you have the time to harass, i have the time to defend (and of course the time to build up a defense).

In a real guerilla war, you attack your enemy fast, precise and you attack where it hurts. You use the terrain that gives you an advantage and your opponent a disadvantage. Sounds all nice. But that only works because your opponent can't get to your heart (base in the mountains or whatever). That doesn't work in starcraft. In starcraft your units are defense and offense at the same time.

You all make it look like you're playing starcraft2 against starcraft1. Just because the attacker has more options, doesn't mean the defender has less. Harassment might be easier now, but so is defending, because both players never have to take their eyes away from attacking or defending and are even able to scout more. And what happens when harassment fails? What happens when you can't divide up your units anymore?

Big army vs big army style.
Only this time you have infinite unit selection, smartcasting, mbs, infinite queued up depots, ai that surrounds perfectly, ai that places all your ranged units perfectly. Go ahead and split up your units, i just roll over you with one big army and if needed play refugee style.

That's how rts game works. And i guarantee you, your harassment windows will get smaller the more refined my classic approach to the game is. And at one point you will wish for a game mechanic that distracts your opponent...
BNI
Profile Joined March 2008
United States19 Posts
March 26 2008 13:28 GMT
#71
nice write ups... It sounds to me more like war3 than sc... especially the macro and lack of real abilities that you can accomplish something with, like sc1 psi storm.
Response
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States1936 Posts
March 26 2008 13:57 GMT
#72
On March 26 2008 22:22 Jayson X wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.

There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.

I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!

You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.

Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!

Well, that's my view.



One word. Critical Mass.
There comes a point in any rts game were having less force means defeat. That guerilla style is nothing but a pipedream. It's all action and reaction. If you have the time to harass, i have the time to defend (and of course the time to build up a defense).

In a real guerilla war, you attack your enemy fast, precise and you attack where it hurts. You use the terrain that gives you an advantage and your opponent a disadvantage. Sounds all nice. But that only works because your opponent can't get to your heart (base in the mountains or whatever). That doesn't work in starcraft. In starcraft your units are defense and offense at the same time.

You all make it look like you're playing starcraft2 against starcraft1. Just because the attacker has more options, doesn't mean the defender has less. Harassment might be easier now, but so is defending, because both players never have to take their eyes away from attacking or defending and are even able to scout more. And what happens when harassment fails? What happens when you can't divide up your units anymore?

Big army vs big army style.
Only this time you have infinite unit selection, smartcasting, mbs, infinite queued up depots, ai that surrounds perfectly, ai that places all your ranged units perfectly. Go ahead and split up your units, i just roll over you with one big army and if needed play refugee style.

That's how rts game works. And i guarantee you, your harassment windows will get smaller the more refined my classic approach to the game is. And at one point you will wish for a game mechanic that distracts your opponent...


you realize critical mass is 2 words right...
the REAL ReSpOnSe
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-26 15:03:52
March 26 2008 14:39 GMT
#73
On March 26 2008 22:22 Jayson X wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.

There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.

I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!

You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.

Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!

Well, that's my view.



One word. Critical Mass.
There comes a point in any rts game were having less force means defeat. That guerilla style is nothing but a pipedream. It's all action and reaction. If you have the time to harass, i have the time to defend (and of course the time to build up a defense).

In a real guerilla war, you attack your enemy fast, precise and you attack where it hurts. You use the terrain that gives you an advantage and your opponent a disadvantage. Sounds all nice. But that only works because your opponent can't get to your heart (base in the mountains or whatever). That doesn't work in starcraft. In starcraft your units are defense and offense at the same time.

You all make it look like you're playing starcraft2 against starcraft1. Just because the attacker has more options, doesn't mean the defender has less. Harassment might be easier now, but so is defending, because both players never have to take their eyes away from attacking or defending and are even able to scout more. And what happens when harassment fails? What happens when you can't divide up your units anymore?

Big army vs big army style.
Only this time you have infinite unit selection, smartcasting, mbs, infinite queued up depots, ai that surrounds perfectly, ai that places all your ranged units perfectly. Go ahead and split up your units, i just roll over you with one big army and if needed play refugee style.

That's how rts game works. And i guarantee you, your harassment windows will get smaller the more refined my classic approach to the game is. And at one point you will wish for a game mechanic that distracts your opponent...


The main thing now is that you CAN harass more with MBS, while without it you simply DON'T. It doesn't make it worse that the enemy has more time to defend, because if he has less, you also have less time to harass.
And no, harass in SC1 is not used, because there is a mechanic that distracts the opponent, which also distracts the harassing player... muta harass for example takes more actions than defending against it and the zerg had to switch view to his base to macro(build buildings, send workers, e.t.c.), while the defending player is already looking there.
I'll call Nada.
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
March 26 2008 17:02 GMT
#74
A minor nitpick: I think you're really underestimating blink. Its going to be one of those skills that REALLY separates pros from noobs. Sure every can get their stalkers out of a sticky situation, but pros are going to really abuse this in awesome ways I feel. Multi directional blinking, harass, kiting, etc.
I will eat you alive
Last Romantic
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States20661 Posts
March 26 2008 17:49 GMT
#75
On March 27 2008 02:02 FieryBalrog wrote:
A minor nitpick: I think you're really underestimating blink. Its going to be one of those skills that REALLY separates pros from noobs. Sure every can get their stalkers out of a sticky situation, but pros are going to really abuse this in awesome ways I feel. Multi directional blinking, harass, kiting, etc.


I thought so initially

IMO it's too high on the tech tree to be used in any really incredible innovative ways [blink rush I can think of maybe..]

but I'd be really happy to be proven wrong on this one^^
ㅋㄲㅈㅁ
ZergPowerrr
Profile Joined March 2008
20 Posts
March 26 2008 18:45 GMT
#76
On March 27 2008 02:49 Last Romantic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2008 02:02 FieryBalrog wrote:
A minor nitpick: I think you're really underestimating blink. Its going to be one of those skills that REALLY separates pros from noobs. Sure every can get their stalkers out of a sticky situation, but pros are going to really abuse this in awesome ways I feel. Multi directional blinking, harass, kiting, etc.


I thought so initially

IMO it's too high on the tech tree to be used in any really incredible innovative ways [blink rush I can think of maybe..]

but I'd be really happy to be proven wrong on this one^^

That's the way it has to be. Otherwise it would be imba. Think of a high lvl warden in war3. Such a huuuge powerhouse...
BNI
Profile Joined March 2008
United States19 Posts
March 26 2008 19:47 GMT
#77
is there an idle worker key like in war3? if so... why the hell would you allow people to que buildings if you can just hit ` to check idle workers??? That alone takes care of any reason for MBS if you ask me...
fishyjoes
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Germany644 Posts
March 26 2008 21:17 GMT
#78
On March 26 2008 05:04 HyoSang wrote:
Last Romantic... You're a sexy sexy beast.

QFT
infinite fun: http://dagobah.biz/flash/loituma.swf
yangstuh
Profile Joined May 2007
United States120 Posts
March 26 2008 22:35 GMT
#79
Last Romantic, great critique of the game, very thoughtful and shed light on a few things that weren't talked about before. I'd say I agree with most of what you say (of course I havn't played myself), but I have my differences on MBS :p

I heard the small/weaker Psi Storm was because units tend to clump together tighter than in SC1? What do you think about that?

Also, the queu queueueueueueu building thing can be easily fixed by forcing resources to be allocated to each qeue, so they don't have infinite flexibility to queue or premap their entire base from start to finish.. which I agree is pretty dumb. So they can only queu until what their resources allow. But queuing buildings should definitly be there and wouldn't hurt pro gamers at all since progamers won't queue that many buildings anyways, the same reason they try not to queue more than 1 unit per building.

Other than that you made excellent points!
"Nothing in constant in life, and even 'change' occurs at a constantly increasing rate."
konstantin
Profile Joined September 2007
Mexico45 Posts
March 26 2008 23:33 GMT
#80
So basically people are divided it two groups,
1 those who put a lot of effort into building their mad macro skillz + uber micro and they cant let go and accept that all newbs wont have to learn the macro the hard way in SC2.
2 those who do not care about and even welcome the simplicity and will play the new game because its a game.

Kind of like "who moved my cheese" scenario.

You could ask yourself, if there were a patch that will allow you to play by your conditions, a la SC1/BW, while the opponent is playing by SC2 default, queue up everything. Would you play the hard way anyway?
Senix
Profile Joined October 2004
Germany149 Posts
March 27 2008 00:48 GMT
#81
Easier macro means less exciting games. When your opponent is aware of your every move because he doesnt get distracted there wont be any possibility of a comeback:
You just lost an attack force? Well because the macro is so easy your opponent will always have an advantage over you because you lost some more units and you both are macroing perfectly.
Trying a drop? Too bad because most of the time your sneeky actions will be spotted right on because your opponent can focus on the action so much more.

I want players to miss things late game. I dont ever want to see a perfect game of Starcraft but instead players that try their hardest to come as close to perfection as possible.

After reading those impression Im wondering why Blizzard is trying to remove a whole play style archtype (macro focused play).
OakHill
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States168 Posts
March 27 2008 00:58 GMT
#82
Easier macro means less exciting games. When your opponent is aware of your every move because he doesnt get distracted there wont be any possibility of a comeback:
You just lost an attack force? Well because the macro is so easy your opponent will always have an advantage over you because you lost some more units and you both are macroing perfectly.
Trying a drop? Too bad because most of the time your sneeky actions will be spotted right on because your opponent can focus on the action so much more.

I want players to miss things late game. I dont ever want to see a perfect game of Starcraft but instead players that try their hardest to come as close to perfection as possible.

After reading those impression Im wondering why Blizzard is trying to remove a whole play style archtype (macro focused play).


Because it wasn't intended in the first place..?
Senix
Profile Joined October 2004
Germany149 Posts
March 27 2008 01:23 GMT
#83
On March 27 2008 09:58 OakHill wrote:
Show nested quote +
Easier macro means less exciting games. When your opponent is aware of your every move because he doesnt get distracted there wont be any possibility of a comeback:
You just lost an attack force? Well because the macro is so easy your opponent will always have an advantage over you because you lost some more units and you both are macroing perfectly.
Trying a drop? Too bad because most of the time your sneeky actions will be spotted right on because your opponent can focus on the action so much more.

I want players to miss things late game. I dont ever want to see a perfect game of Starcraft but instead players that try their hardest to come as close to perfection as possible.

After reading those impression Im wondering why Blizzard is trying to remove a whole play style archtype (macro focused play).


Because it wasn't intended in the first place..?


You´re right. But things like Mutalisks stacking, the Zerg extractor trick, wall ins, Lurker hold or mineral jumps are exciting to do and watch. And they make the game more interesting. So why remove them when they add to the fun?
Its those small details that I will miss the most in Starcraft 2.
Umbrella
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Taiwan936 Posts
March 27 2008 01:39 GMT
#84
The thing is that those small details will be replaced with starcraft 2's details, imo.
ScarFace
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1175 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-27 01:44:10
March 27 2008 01:41 GMT
#85
I've got to be honest: If they dont fix EVERY one of these greivances, to the letter [i.e back to their sc1 equivalent], I am not buying this game. It will be trash to me. Not only because sc1 is the only rts I ever thought was fun, but because it sc2 will just be a giant shit on everything sc1 stands for...

Edit: Oh, and unequivocally remove the Mothership.
Edit2: And for god sakes it wouldn't hurt to change the Terrans units a tad would it? I mean they're the Humans, not the transformers.
Can you dig it?
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia1847 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-27 04:47:44
March 27 2008 04:46 GMT
#86
I think less actions required for macro is potentially a very positive thing (I agree with snowbird's earlier post) and I hope Blizzard doesn't remove MBS, building queuing (though I wouldn't mind if they made you pay for them all up front - that might be better for both newbs and pros anyway since you don't get your minerals spent for you at inconvenient times), etc.

If they find some other ways to "make macro harder", that's fine, but they better actually be useful things that make sense being harder, and not just some arbitrary excuse for more clicks.
p4NDemik
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States13896 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-27 08:45:09
March 27 2008 08:41 GMT
#87
On March 27 2008 08:33 konstantin wrote:
So basically people are divided it two groups,
1 those who put a lot of effort into building their mad macro skillz + uber micro and they cant let go and accept that all newbs wont have to learn the macro the hard way in SC2.

dude, say what you want, but don't simplify it down to some sort of superiority complex thing, because thats simply not how it is.

if you actually listen to 99% of the people who worry about MBS, their grievances are stated because they're worried that the level of play at the highest levels might be dulled by the change, which in turn would harm the competitive aspect of the game that SC has harbored for going on 10 years now.

it has very very very little to do with anyone being pissed that the game will be easier and more accessible for noobs. most reasonable people here would love to make the game more accessible for noobs, as that was BW's one main flaw for many people, it's so difficult that it is hard to get into competitive games without a LOT of practice.

so please rectify your misconceptions, and go out there and actually read what people think before making such sweeping generalizations about something that is vastly more complicated than you make it out to be.
Moderator
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-27 09:20:58
March 27 2008 09:17 GMT
#88
Some general thoughts about changes due in SC2 (regarding SCBW):

Do not forget Blizzard's primary concern is not to please good players, or e-sports, but to make money.

The reason why SCBW is still successful after so many years, is because it has so much depth and you need so much skill to get to the top. And this is also the reason why it is interesting for e-sports.

But this also means that only a few people - globally speaking - will take interest in such a game, after the initial hipe is over.
What are 2 million Koreans in terms of global marketing?
Blizzard earns money from 10 Million people, monthly (WoW).

So, how sell more copies over a longer time? Make the game more accessible to a broader audience, by making it easier. Therefore I do not expect that MBS, mass selection, queuing build commands etc. will go - to the contrary.

Now if Blizzard were given a share in the money being made broadcasting e-sports via TV, things might be different.
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
ocoini
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
648 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-27 10:36:03
March 27 2008 10:28 GMT
#89
On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2008 04:36 Last Romantic wrote:
<font size=4>StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage</font>
<font size=3>Part III: Thoughts on Gameplay</font>


It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.

There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.

I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!

You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.

Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!

Well, that's my view.


Might aswell toss in some hero units then... :\

I think choice will be gone with the new gameplay mechanics. Everyone will play very similar. It SOUNDS like sc2 will be a pretty pure army watching game.
Street Vendor Crack Down Princess-Cop!
Megrim
Profile Joined May 2007
Australia60 Posts
March 27 2008 10:33 GMT
#90
On March 27 2008 19:28 ocoini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
On March 26 2008 04:36 Last Romantic wrote:
<font size=4>StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage</font>
<font size=3>Part III: Thoughts on Gameplay</font>


It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.

There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.

I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!

You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.

Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!

Well, that's my view.


Might aswell toss in some hero units then... :\




Yes, clearly a salient point. Heroes have so much to do with what he wrote. Obviously.
ocoini
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
648 Posts
March 27 2008 10:37 GMT
#91
On March 27 2008 19:33 Megrim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2008 19:28 ocoini wrote:
On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
On March 26 2008 04:36 Last Romantic wrote:
<font size=4>StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage</font>
<font size=3>Part III: Thoughts on Gameplay</font>


It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.


When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.

There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.

I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!

You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.

Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!

Well, that's my view.


Might aswell toss in some hero units then... :\




Yes, clearly a salient point. Heroes have so much to do with what he wrote. Obviously.


i clarified it abit
Street Vendor Crack Down Princess-Cop!
D10
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Brazil3409 Posts
March 27 2008 15:18 GMT
#92
Those who believe sc2 will be 2 huge armies walking around the map and blowing off expos will be sadly wrong.

The thing i ask my self the most is, why isnt any MBS hater able to even imagine the intensity that the new mechanics would bring to two players at the skill ceilling, i mean, we got a review from a guy that owned other site n00b players and hasant lost a single game in an alpha.

Until theres some experienced pros creating and inventing on the game theres no way you can make any assumption, SC plays nothing today than people expected it to play 11 years ago.
" We are not humans having spiritual experiences. - We are spirits having human experiences." - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
konstantin
Profile Joined September 2007
Mexico45 Posts
March 27 2008 15:53 GMT
#93
I think that all of your worries, about macro being phase out and associated game boringness because of it, will result vane. Because SC2 is not SC1, it has so many new units and units that can jump/walk/blink over the ledge.
With this new mechanics the surprise factor will always be present. The opponent is too focused on the battlefield? then sneaking/dropping units in his main/expo will pass his attention.
No longer a cliff or wall-in will be too hard to bypass, just use another side of the map to sneak units in from.
As D10 pointed out game play and strategies are evolving every day and sure with SC2 there will be more possibilities and new tactics will be developed.

It would be wise that you leave your SC1 baggage out before SC2 comes out, because if you put high expectations on SC2 being just like SC1 then mental block will kick in and you wont be able to enjoy the game and most likely you will find yourself in forums whining and bitching about "this" not being like in SC1 and "that" sucks and the psy storm sucks...etc. etc., whatever.

SC2 is new game, with new mechanics, in 3D and Blizzard is putting a lot of effort into it to be a fun, dynamic and balanced game and most likely Blizzard will continue to support the game with patches for a long time.
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-03-28 08:23:03
March 27 2008 17:11 GMT
#94
@konstantin: Where is the proof that Blizzard is putting a lot of effort "into it to be a fun, dynamic and balanced game"?

Just asking. I do not want to bitch about SC2, but fun means diferent things to different people. I know folks that thought WC3 fun, while I thought it a real set-back in terms of strategic gaming compared to WC2 (note: I only know WC3 before the expansion); on the other hand it was probably a lot of fun for all the Diablo players out there.

So criticizing a bit at this point MAY HELP get Blizzard's attention to make sure the hardcore gamers, as us, being on this site, get their fun, too :-)
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
CharlieC
Profile Joined March 2008
Sweden1 Post
March 28 2008 12:11 GMT
#95
Why has no one brought the zergs disadvantage up? They will be hurt by MBS because they will have a harder time when even noobs become macro beasts. They will also not benefit from it as much as Terran and Protoss because they can't que units. They have to pay for every egg they make from a larva! The zerg in SC 1 often had to harass terran or protoss to hold enemy armies back. Now it will be much easier to stop zerg harass when you don't have to worry about macro. If you can hold of the harass with ease then you can basically atack with a large army sooner. Do you agree or disagree?
Jayson X
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Switzerland2431 Posts
March 28 2008 12:43 GMT
#96
On March 26 2008 22:57 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:
you realize critical mass is 2 words right...


to be honest...i can't even remember posting that...
[X]Ken_D
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
United States4650 Posts
March 28 2008 15:37 GMT
#97
On March 28 2008 21:11 CharlieC wrote:
Why has no one brought the zergs disadvantage up? They will be hurt by MBS because they will have a harder time when even noobs become macro beasts. They will also not benefit from it as much as Terran and Protoss because they can't que units. They have to pay for every egg they make from a larva! The zerg in SC 1 often had to harass terran or protoss to hold enemy armies back. Now it will be much easier to stop zerg harass when you don't have to worry about macro. If you can hold of the harass with ease then you can basically atack with a large army sooner. Do you agree or disagree?


I agree.

Zerg will have the worse macro compared to Terran & Protoss. Zerg has to pay attention more to the larvae. Hopefully larvae production is speed up to compensate.
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
Toss99
Profile Joined March 2008
Norway2 Posts
March 28 2008 16:28 GMT
#98
nice write up! good opinion! Long live Protoss! :D HAD to say it :D
Tor
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada231 Posts
March 29 2008 11:41 GMT
#99
You know it seems to me the issue with the reduced macro in Starcraft 2 comes from the ability to just queue all your work and ignore your base completely. If all they did was make you pay the resources as you queued it would take alot more base attention. You'd have the advantage of ease of use for new players while leaving a large advantage for cerebral and attentive players. It would force better resource management and would still grant the advantage to players with greater APM because you would need to go back and queue as your resources come to you. I'm not sure if that's the perfect solution but it seems to me to be an important step forward in overall macro. It keeps most of the subtle function of macro while removing alot of the rediculous steps that really distract from the overall game.
Tor
Profile Joined March 2008
Canada231 Posts
March 29 2008 11:56 GMT
#100
And seriously, managing a full base in Warcraft 3 was still a pain in the ass even with tabbing through buildings. (Although admittedly easier than Starcraft thank god) Starcraft is on a much larger scale (2 to 3 times at least) and with multiple expansions and more buildings and upgrade options you'd still need exceptional APM to harass/attack and manage your bases/expansions. I don't care how good you are, you are still losing great gameplay opportunities with a wall of text that looks like this 1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs just to make some tanks, jackals and supply depots, with a couple of attack moves thrown in.
RaiZ
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
2813 Posts
March 30 2008 06:45 GMT
#101
God. MBS IS BAD. Period. Don't fucking say me i'm wrong.
Let's see with zergs : 5SH with 10 hatches. Right click behind hydras'army in order to get renfort later's on. Ctrl + 1 those eggs you just morphed. GG you have another group of hydras coming while dodging storm or whatever area attack you can name of.
Is that really what you want ? I ask you seriously. Please, think twice.
Those who say it's still good are either :
Warcraft players.
News players.
Lazy players that don't give a fuk about its future and competitive gaming.

This game is seriously becoming more and more like Warcraft3. I don't want this game to be only micro, because everybody knows : It'll get boring really really fast. And yet if they still manage to not get rid of it then they'll really have to move their ass to find a lot of multiples micro actions in order to make a gap between a noob and a good player. But still it'd be only micro, where's the fun ?

I'd rather have a competitive game that could last 10 years than a fun but easily beatable game that can be sold only for 1 year and then getting nothing from it.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde
VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
March 30 2008 19:43 GMT
#102
On March 26 2008 22:22 Jayson X wrote:
Just because the attacker has more options, doesn't mean the defender has less. Harassment might be easier now, but so is defending, because both players never have to take their eyes away from attacking or defending and are even able to scout more.
But that's the game we want. We want to harass more, we want the defender to defend more (instead of sitting idle with their defense and losing valuable units while they were busy clicking on buildings like we often see on 400+ apm korean games). And consequently we want to win because we were better at attacking than they were at defending, we scouted better than them, we were better at strategy than them. As opposed to "we won because we can click on buildings better than them!".


And what happens when harassment fails? What happens when you can't divide up your units anymore?

Big army vs big army style.
Disagree. When a harassment fails and I can't divide my troops. I will contend you, mass expand, harass your expos if you try to. Your only couner will be to play offensive on me, harass my expos, expand yourself. If you don't, you lose. If you do, you'll be playing the fun, active, multiple harassing game that MBS favors.

Also, another thing that people often miss. Is that MBS is not the only thing changing. They are also doing many other changes that values flexible harassing games to keep you busy from the actions you saved for not clicking buildings so much. In SC2 we already have more flexible offensive units like the Colossus, medics that can carry and drop marines, faster zerg units. They're even making tower defenses more offensive, moving cannons, queen/overlord combo. Offensive and flexible mechanics like warp in, cloaked zerg transport, terran AA that can flexibly harass ground. These are all new stuff that adds flexibility to SC2 as opposed to SC1. So these are all things that will help make the game more oriented to multiple armies, harassing and offensive strats.

They could go even further if they find MBS got players with too much free time after trying it on beta. They could change the mineral value/cost of units to force you to expand more, make base defenses weaker, make key tech buildings more important but vulnerable. The community could also help by using the extensively flexible map making tools to draw maps that favors expanding, harassing and exciting games.

They're already making SC2 mechanics that keeps you busy with other things to make up for MBS. And they could be doing much more if they feel like they need it. So don't call it broken before we try it ourselves. Beta might clear up lots of things
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