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On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2008 04:36 Last Romantic wrote:
<font size=4>StarCraft II TeamLiquid Coverage</font>
<font size=3>Part III: Thoughts on Gameplay</font>
It's not just a question of apm, either, but also that of multitask. You don't need to watch your nexi anymore, you don't need to f2 back to your production buildings, so you can continually look at your army and nothing else. Sometimes once it reached mid/lategame I was just moving around with a group of units, sniping off random enemies, and occasionally doing my 3tj0s [five keystrokes! perfect macro!] and then I'd suddenly realize oh! 200/200! attack move! and I never once moved the screen away from my harass group. So I do think macro is in serious need of some serious fixing.
When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing. You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.
ummm oov has to push 3tj0s while harassing
noob has to push 3tj0s while harassing
clearly the noob wont be able to keep up in macro
wait, what?
There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles. I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work! thats micro, not macro.You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this: 1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs while in SC1 it would look like this: 1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8 8s77sF3bsbs Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining. Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities! Well, that's my view.
Actually ignore this.
It should probably be debated in the mbs thread.
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On March 26 2008 13:42 ItchReliever wrote:
good post snowbird and nice article as well
I agree. Unfortunately I don't think this MBS debate will EVER be resolved until the game is released. I do agree entirely that MBS will only increase the ability of people to micro while macroing at the same time. Expo harassing, battles, maneuvering...ohhh, it would be so awesome to watch progamers do all of that micro at once!
And fusion, you make it sound a BIT oversimplified. Just because a noob can queue up his units at the same speed as the pro doesn't necessarily mean a thing...you have to know WHAT to queue and WHEN to queue it alongside WHAT to build and WHEN to build it. And if a noob can do all of those things at the pro level but just can't type fast enough...then what's the problem with letting him have MBS?
The thing is what separates noobs from pros isn't necessarily speed but most often execution of strategy, knowing counters, good micro, and good economy maintenance (expanding, knowing what to build when, etc).
And c'mon, most TRUE noobs don't even use major hotkeys. I rarely see a game lost due to macro speed instead of some sort of economic or strategic decision.
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On March 26 2008 14:55 TheOvermind77 wrote:
And fusion, you make it sound a BIT oversimplified. Just because a noob can queue up his units at the same speed as the pro doesn't necessarily mean a thing...you have to know WHAT to queue and WHEN to queue it alongside WHAT to build and WHEN to build it. And if a noob can do all of those things at the pro level but just can't type fast enough...then what's the problem with letting him have MBS?
The thing is what separates noobs from pros isn't necessarily speed but most often execution of strategy, knowing counters, good micro, and good economy maintenance (expanding, knowing what to build when, etc).
And c'mon, most TRUE noobs don't even use major hotkeys. I rarely see a game lost due to macro speed instead of some sort of economic or strategic decision.
There's two things important to master in any strategy game: the theory (timing, builds, counters, etc.), and the execution (micro, multi-tasking). What separates a good player from a great player is rarely the game knowledge itself, but the execution. Strategy will always be part of Starcraft, but if you reduce the relative importance of execution in the gameplay, it means you also reduce the gap between good, great players, and pros.
(Also, by making macromanagement considerably easier, that also reduces the usefulness of harassing, because harassing won't affect the opposing player's ability to produce units, workers and buildings nearly as much.)
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good writeup. its nice to hear the opinion of ppl who actually played sc2. there is some truth in your words and i hope blizzard will read this.
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come on guys those macro mechanics are rediculous. if any of you are competitive with 200+ apm, which i think like 70%+ of this place is, then sc2 utterly kills our way of using our paints and brushes (keyboards and mouses) in quick precise strokes to create our artowrk.
then agian, sc is THE deepest game ever made, and i never did expect a game to surpass it witin the next century or so. and to this point i have yet to know a game to surpass it. to me its a masterpiece where you can make your own art, and to have our family (sc1 community) be diminished by a sequal unfitting for sc's former glory in gamepaly dynamics is just a shame
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There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.
I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!
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do you play starcraft? thats the beauty in it all, striving for perfection in a game that takes super human like speed and mind to accomplish. it is possible for progamers to play much more perfect, and competition slowly gets us closer to that. plus theres the mindgames in guessing counters, hiding proxies to it all. its all art.
sc1 is like graphite shading gradations, it will never be perfect but you always try
but sc2 is like those new art computer programs where the shadings will be pixel perfect. i hope progamers don't leave sc for such a crappy sequal
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I feel there is alot you have not addressed and alot you have also left unexplained. For example it is obvious the game UI is incomplete so why complain about it? Just as well about the display of hotkeys, have you thought about how intresting it would be to see a pros hotkey movement and arrangement changes especially for players who are learning?
I apologize for any errors in this post and its briefness, but I was writing it on my phone lol.
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Well maybe we can make a comparison with competitive warcraft. In warcraft the macro seem even easier, because there is mbs, not many expansions and way less producing building. Yet macro still has it's importance, and a newb will macro a lot less well than a pro, even if he doesn't realize this (watch a game by Moon or any HuVSUd). Macro doesn't take time in warcraft, but it is important (but still way less important than macro in starcraft i agree).
The time gained is utilized to harass better by programer (they will often creep with part of their army, harass with a hero, scout with a peon) at the same time, and noob will try to copy them but they will be far off in execution (fast creeping, last hit denying). So there is a LARGE skill difference between an amateur and a pro in warcraft, it is less obvious to see it than in starcraft but it is present nonetheless.
So even with mbs in starcraftII, i have absolutly no doubt that a pro will still crush a good amateur without trouble. But i agree we could try to find way to make macro even harder (with do not mean more time consuming, it can be a solution, but i would be happy if apm was all used for micro and multiple harass, and macro was about game sense, timing, strategy and difficult diffusion, it would make a good macroer with low apm but a great strategical mind a chance against some insane apmer, ant it would be good imho).
[sorry for being a bit off-topic in my last paragraph, i just wanted to point there is a large skill difference in warcraft between a good amateur and a pro, even if the difference is less obvious to see than in warcraft, it is more hidden for the non connaisseur).
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uh Crimson how exactly is an audience going to follow like 3-4 attacks at multiple places on a map..
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On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.
There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.
I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!
You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.
Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!
Well, that's my view.
One word. Critical Mass.
There comes a point in any rts game were having less force means defeat. That guerilla style is nothing but a pipedream. It's all action and reaction. If you have the time to harass, i have the time to defend (and of course the time to build up a defense).
In a real guerilla war, you attack your enemy fast, precise and you attack where it hurts. You use the terrain that gives you an advantage and your opponent a disadvantage. Sounds all nice. But that only works because your opponent can't get to your heart (base in the mountains or whatever). That doesn't work in starcraft. In starcraft your units are defense and offense at the same time.
You all make it look like you're playing starcraft2 against starcraft1. Just because the attacker has more options, doesn't mean the defender has less. Harassment might be easier now, but so is defending, because both players never have to take their eyes away from attacking or defending and are even able to scout more. And what happens when harassment fails? What happens when you can't divide up your units anymore?
Big army vs big army style.
Only this time you have infinite unit selection, smartcasting, mbs, infinite queued up depots, ai that surrounds perfectly, ai that places all your ranged units perfectly. Go ahead and split up your units, i just roll over you with one big army and if needed play refugee style.
That's how rts game works. And i guarantee you, your harassment windows will get smaller the more refined my classic approach to the game is. And at one point you will wish for a game mechanic that distracts your opponent...
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nice write ups... It sounds to me more like war3 than sc... especially the macro and lack of real abilities that you can accomplish something with, like sc1 psi storm.
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On March 26 2008 22:22 Jayson X wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.
There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.
I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!
You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.
Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!
Well, that's my view. One word. Critical Mass. There comes a point in any rts game were having less force means defeat. That guerilla style is nothing but a pipedream. It's all action and reaction. If you have the time to harass, i have the time to defend (and of course the time to build up a defense). In a real guerilla war, you attack your enemy fast, precise and you attack where it hurts. You use the terrain that gives you an advantage and your opponent a disadvantage. Sounds all nice. But that only works because your opponent can't get to your heart (base in the mountains or whatever). That doesn't work in starcraft. In starcraft your units are defense and offense at the same time. You all make it look like you're playing starcraft2 against starcraft1. Just because the attacker has more options, doesn't mean the defender has less. Harassment might be easier now, but so is defending, because both players never have to take their eyes away from attacking or defending and are even able to scout more. And what happens when harassment fails? What happens when you can't divide up your units anymore? Big army vs big army style. Only this time you have infinite unit selection, smartcasting, mbs, infinite queued up depots, ai that surrounds perfectly, ai that places all your ranged units perfectly. Go ahead and split up your units, i just roll over you with one big army and if needed play refugee style. That's how rts game works. And i guarantee you, your harassment windows will get smaller the more refined my classic approach to the game is. And at one point you will wish for a game mechanic that distracts your opponent...
you realize critical mass is 2 words right...
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On March 26 2008 22:22 Jayson X wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2008 13:00 snowbird wrote:
When I read this part I was thinking 'Man that's great!'. I see tremendous potential in what you call something that needs serious fixing.
You said you were able to perfectly harrass while still macroing perfectly. With some practice and good apm, you will even be able to perfectly harrass with 2 groups at 2 different fronts while macroing perfectly. But it has a limit, and exactly that is the skill ceiling. In the SC2 I have in mind, a macro monster like let's say oov, could harrass with 3 groups while doing a micro intensive full-scale attack while macroing, building an expo and taking a dump in between. And that's what your average noob could never do, even with MBS.
There's some stuff I don't want to see anymore in SC2, stuff that bothers me when watching SC1. In late game so many units get wasted because there is no time to properly micro them, there's not even time to click them. That's why defilers just die, scourges idle next to a vessel doing nothing, lurkers don't burrow and just get killed. All that happened in sAviOr's matches yesterday, and he is certainly not a noob. In SC2 with MBS there's the possibility of non-stop action because you actually have the time to use your units to the fullest. Late game could be a non stop slaughter at several fronts, but not just attack-move, I'm talking strategical micro intensive battles.
I don't wanna see progamers clicking 10 rax making marines and building 5 supply depots, instead I want to see them click 10 HT's using storm and microing their zealots, and the next second changing to their harrass group and doing some micro there, without being disturbed by some brainless gateway clicking. And it is exactly the same amount of work!
You say a sequence of commands in SC2 could look like this:
1a, 2tj,3bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs+shift+bs
while in SC1 it would look like this:
1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s88s77sF3bsbs1a2a3aF2ttvvvvvv00s99s8
8s77sF3bsbs
Now with the time you saved in SC2, you could actually do something worthwhile, why do people fail to see that? I can use that time to make a drop, unload my defilers, make 5 dark swarms, burrow my lurkers, plague the marines that come running, etc. etc etc. - while in SC1 you would have clicked some more factories, wow that's entertaining.
Macro your micro, MBS makes it possible. Don't live in the past and see the possibilities!
Well, that's my view. One word. Critical Mass. There comes a point in any rts game were having less force means defeat. That guerilla style is nothing but a pipedream. It's all action and reaction. If you have the time to harass, i have the time to defend (and of course the time to build up a defense). In a real guerilla war, you attack your enemy fast, precise and you attack where it hurts. You use the terrain that gives you an advantage and your opponent a disadvantage. Sounds all nice. But that only works because your opponent can't get to your heart (base in the mountains or whatever). That doesn't work in starcraft. In starcraft your units are defense and offense at the same time. You all make it look like you're playing starcraft2 against starcraft1. Just because the attacker has more options, doesn't mean the defender has less. Harassment might be easier now, but so is defending, because both players never have to take their eyes away from attacking or defending and are even able to scout more. And what happens when harassment fails? What happens when you can't divide up your units anymore? Big army vs big army style. Only this time you have infinite unit selection, smartcasting, mbs, infinite queued up depots, ai that surrounds perfectly, ai that places all your ranged units perfectly. Go ahead and split up your units, i just roll over you with one big army and if needed play refugee style. That's how rts game works. And i guarantee you, your harassment windows will get smaller the more refined my classic approach to the game is. And at one point you will wish for a game mechanic that distracts your opponent...
The main thing now is that you CAN harass more with MBS, while without it you simply DON'T. It doesn't make it worse that the enemy has more time to defend, because if he has less, you also have less time to harass.
And no, harass in SC1 is not used, because there is a mechanic that distracts the opponent, which also distracts the harassing player... muta harass for example takes more actions than defending against it and the zerg had to switch view to his base to macro(build buildings, send workers, e.t.c.), while the defending player is already looking there.
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A minor nitpick: I think you're really underestimating blink. Its going to be one of those skills that REALLY separates pros from noobs. Sure every can get their stalkers out of a sticky situation, but pros are going to really abuse this in awesome ways I feel. Multi directional blinking, harass, kiting, etc.
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United States20661 Posts
On March 27 2008 02:02 FieryBalrog wrote:
A minor nitpick: I think you're really underestimating blink. Its going to be one of those skills that REALLY separates pros from noobs. Sure every can get their stalkers out of a sticky situation, but pros are going to really abuse this in awesome ways I feel. Multi directional blinking, harass, kiting, etc.
I thought so initially
IMO it's too high on the tech tree to be used in any really incredible innovative ways [blink rush I can think of maybe..]
but I'd be really happy to be proven wrong on this one^^
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On March 27 2008 02:49 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2008 02:02 FieryBalrog wrote:
A minor nitpick: I think you're really underestimating blink. Its going to be one of those skills that REALLY separates pros from noobs. Sure every can get their stalkers out of a sticky situation, but pros are going to really abuse this in awesome ways I feel. Multi directional blinking, harass, kiting, etc. I thought so initially IMO it's too high on the tech tree to be used in any really incredible innovative ways [blink rush I can think of maybe..] but I'd be really happy to be proven wrong on this one^^
That's the way it has to be. Otherwise it would be imba. Think of a high lvl warden in war3. Such a huuuge powerhouse...
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is there an idle worker key like in war3? if so... why the hell would you allow people to que buildings if you can just hit ` to check idle workers??? That alone takes care of any reason for MBS if you ask me...
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On March 26 2008 05:04 HyoSang wrote:
Last Romantic... You're a sexy sexy beast.
QFT 
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Last Romantic, great critique of the game, very thoughtful and shed light on a few things that weren't talked about before. I'd say I agree with most of what you say (of course I havn't played myself), but I have my differences on MBS :p
I heard the small/weaker Psi Storm was because units tend to clump together tighter than in SC1? What do you think about that?
Also, the queu queueueueueueu building thing can be easily fixed by forcing resources to be allocated to each qeue, so they don't have infinite flexibility to queue or premap their entire base from start to finish.. which I agree is pretty dumb. So they can only queu until what their resources allow. But queuing buildings should definitly be there and wouldn't hurt pro gamers at all since progamers won't queue that many buildings anyways, the same reason they try not to queue more than 1 unit per building.
Other than that you made excellent points!
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So basically people are divided it two groups,
1 those who put a lot of effort into building their mad macro skillz + uber micro and they cant let go and accept that all newbs wont have to learn the macro the hard way in SC2.
2 those who do not care about and even welcome the simplicity and will play the new game because its a game.
Kind of like "who moved my cheese" scenario.
You could ask yourself, if there were a patch that will allow you to play by your conditions, a la SC1/BW, while the opponent is playing by SC2 default, queue up everything. Would you play the hard way anyway?
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EPT
