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On February 28 2012 10:44 negativedge wrote:
Polt and Huk shouldn't get seeds specifically because they just dropped out of the GSL. Failure shouldn't be rewarded, and players shouldn't be given a free, immediate safety net because of performance elsewhere. Naniwa is an ok choice, but he's had his shots and the probe rush thing should play a role in his candidacy.
So who?
Stephano is obvious if he's willing. He's the only non-Huk foreigner that has shown any ability to beat Koreans, and the Koreans themselves seem to respect his game. His popularity is on the rise.
But how about Puma? No one likes him and he's not a foreigner, so it isn't going to happen, but is there a better candidate? He's a guy that can't seem to qualify the regular way, but he routinely places high in just about every foreign tournament under the sun. So he has a vast resume, doesn't have GSL experience, and absolutely has both the talent and (now) the experience to advance in tournament. The whole seed idea seems tailor made for his circumstances.
Both MC and MMA gained Code S seeds directly after bombinb out of Code A.
Polt should most definitely have one of the seeds, with Stephano as the other. Of course, with the likelihood of Stephano not accepting the seed, it should go to HuK or NaNi, in my opinion. There are good debates for both players to make it, but I'm rooting for HuK, mostly due to his nationality (Go Canada!). I would be happy with either, though.
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But MC and MMA did not get those Code S seeds from invites--they won them as a result of a system that was set up to reward MLG performances, regardless of who took advantage. That is not the case here.
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Well, that may be so, but in none of the cases is failure being rewarded. Polt is being rewarded for an outstanding performance at Assembly Winter, and HuK is being rewarded for great performances at MLG Winter Arena. It's not a safety net, it's a reward for great performances elsewhere. The foreign seeds are to focus strictly on foreign tournaments - not on the GSL. At least, that's how I took it.
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Usually TL staff writes great articles, but this article leaves out many players that have a decent shot at the seed due to their results. People keep on talking about huk, naniwa, idra, Demuslim, and Stephano as foreigners who have a shot at the seed but what about Dimaga and Kas? These guys have the results that could justify a seed.
Dimaga's time in Korea was very impressive, beating Nestea in a huge upset at the GSL world championship. Recently, he got 2nd at Kiev and top 8 at Homestory Cup, losing to MMA and jyp respectively.
Kas won 3rd at both WCG and Kiev, beating MKP at the fomer event and Zenio twice at the latter event. Of course he has also dominated in numerous other tournaments.
We cannot forget about these guys when discussing seeding: it's like making a conclusion before all the data is collected. A lot of people say that foreigners have had enough chances, but these guys have not yet been given a chance in the new system. I'm tired of hearing debates where everyone is only focused on Huk, Naniwa and Stephano. Let some other foreign players have a shot please. Don't close the door of opportunity based off of the performance of two players.
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Korea (South)855 Posts
if it were only so simple.
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On February 28 2012 10:44 negativedge wrote:
Polt and Huk shouldn't get seeds specifically because they just dropped out of the GSL. Failure shouldn't be rewarded, and players shouldn't be given a free, immediate safety net because of performance elsewhere. Naniwa is an ok choice, but he's had his shots and the probe rush thing should play a role in his candidacy.
So who?
Stephano is obvious if he's willing. He's the only non-Huk foreigner that has shown any ability to beat Koreans, and the Koreans themselves seem to respect his game. His popularity is on the rise.
But how about Puma? No one likes him and he's not a foreigner, so it isn't going to happen, but is there a better candidate? He's a guy that can't seem to qualify the regular way, but he routinely places high in just about every foreign tournament under the sun. So he has a vast resume, doesn't have GSL experience, and absolutely has both the talent and (now) the experience to advance in tournament. The whole seed idea seems tailor made for his circumstances.
This logic is totally irrelevant due to the precedent regarding seeding.
MMA, and MC both got seeds into Code S via the MLG after dropping out of Code A already, and they are considered some of the best players of their respective races in the GSL right now.
If GOM had never set that precedent before your logic might have merit, but they already set the precedent and we the viewers have been rewarded for it. MC and MMA continue to be two of the strongest most popular players in the tournament and we'd have missed out on that if we had skipped over seeding them.
If you want another example, DRG only managed to get into Code S after obtaining an MLG seed. Should they have skipped him too because of his lackluster showing in Code A?
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I really doubt HuK or NaNiwa would bomb as badly as IdrA or Sen did. Put plainly, IdrA is in a slump and not performing well anywhere lately. As a long-time viewer of the tournament, I think passing up Polt in favor of foreigners who are performing well at the time wouldn't mean a hit to the GSL's integrity; inviting IdrA again would be scandalous however, as he has done nothing to merit an invite lately and even though he already got one very recently, he made an irrefutable case that he should not be in Code S right now.
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On February 28 2012 11:14 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 10:44 negativedge wrote:
Polt and Huk shouldn't get seeds specifically because they just dropped out of the GSL. Failure shouldn't be rewarded, and players shouldn't be given a free, immediate safety net because of performance elsewhere. Naniwa is an ok choice, but he's had his shots and the probe rush thing should play a role in his candidacy.
So who?
Stephano is obvious if he's willing. He's the only non-Huk foreigner that has shown any ability to beat Koreans, and the Koreans themselves seem to respect his game. His popularity is on the rise.
But how about Puma? No one likes him and he's not a foreigner, so it isn't going to happen, but is there a better candidate? He's a guy that can't seem to qualify the regular way, but he routinely places high in just about every foreign tournament under the sun. So he has a vast resume, doesn't have GSL experience, and absolutely has both the talent and (now) the experience to advance in tournament. The whole seed idea seems tailor made for his circumstances. This logic is totally irrelevant due to the precedent regarding seeding. MMA, and MC both got seeds into Code S via the MLG after dropping out of Code A already, and they are considered some of the best players of their respective races in the GSL right now. If GOM had never set that precedent before your logic might have merit, but they already set the precedent and we the viewers have been rewarded for it. MC and MMA continue to be two of the strongest most popular players in the tournament and we'd have missed out on that if we had skipped over seeding them. If you want another example, DRG only managed to get into Code S after obtaining an MLG seed. Should they have skipped him too because of his lackluster showing in Code A?
I already responded to this argument. In brief: the cases you cite involved no subjective deliberation, and no invites as such. GOM set up a system to reward MLG performance in a direct, objective manner, and it did so before seeing who the players that would benefit from such a situation even were. That GOM directly scrapped the system in question might hint that they found the results unsatisfactory. If that is the case, it would seem likely that they would be inclined to offer GSL seeds to people that have not recently failed in the GSL. Either way, precedent here is irrelevant specifically because they changed the system on which you are basing that precedent. And given that, it is perfectly ok to argue that the GSL should look outside of its recent participants for seeding purposes. Polt and Huk just had their chances, and they did not take advantage of them. Considering they both live in Korea, and considering they are both experienced and talented, one would assume they would find their way back in the old fashioned way if so they choose.
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Stephano, i like that dude i really think he is the future of the game when it comes to practicing.
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Huk and stephano, or polt and stephano, or huk and polt if stephano wont go.
Polt played what looked like the best sc2 of his life at ROG, that should be a huge consideration.
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On February 28 2012 11:35 negativedge wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 11:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 28 2012 10:44 negativedge wrote:
Polt and Huk shouldn't get seeds specifically because they just dropped out of the GSL. Failure shouldn't be rewarded, and players shouldn't be given a free, immediate safety net because of performance elsewhere. Naniwa is an ok choice, but he's had his shots and the probe rush thing should play a role in his candidacy.
So who?
Stephano is obvious if he's willing. He's the only non-Huk foreigner that has shown any ability to beat Koreans, and the Koreans themselves seem to respect his game. His popularity is on the rise.
But how about Puma? No one likes him and he's not a foreigner, so it isn't going to happen, but is there a better candidate? He's a guy that can't seem to qualify the regular way, but he routinely places high in just about every foreign tournament under the sun. So he has a vast resume, doesn't have GSL experience, and absolutely has both the talent and (now) the experience to advance in tournament. The whole seed idea seems tailor made for his circumstances. This logic is totally irrelevant due to the precedent regarding seeding. MMA, and MC both got seeds into Code S via the MLG after dropping out of Code A already, and they are considered some of the best players of their respective races in the GSL right now. If GOM had never set that precedent before your logic might have merit, but they already set the precedent and we the viewers have been rewarded for it. MC and MMA continue to be two of the strongest most popular players in the tournament and we'd have missed out on that if we had skipped over seeding them. If you want another example, DRG only managed to get into Code S after obtaining an MLG seed. Should they have skipped him too because of his lackluster showing in Code A? I already responded to this argument. In brief: the cases you cite involved no subjective deliberation, and no invites as such. GOM set up a system to reward MLG performance in a direct, objective manner, and it did so before seeing who the players that would benefit from such a situation even were. That GOM directly scrapped the system in question might hint that they found the results unsatisfactory. If that is the case, it would seem likely that they would be inclined to offer GSL seeds to people that have not recently failed in the GSL. Either way, precedent here is irrelevant specifically because they changed the system on which you are basing that precedent. And given that, it is perfectly ok to argue that the GSL should look outside of its recent participants for seeding purposes. Polt and Huk just had their chances, and they did not take advantage of them. Considering they both live in Korea, and considering they are both experienced and talented, one would assume they would find their way back in the old fashioned way if so they choose.
Dude it should be obvious WHY they scrapped it.
Because you didn't even need to win MLG to get the seed you merely had to be the highest placed Non Code S member playing as long as you placed at a minimum of 3rd place. That was so much easier than Code A was at the time it was actually embarassing.
Second, the exchange program ONLY worked with MLG, and left every other foreign tournament out of the picture. This is probably the biggest reason they scrapped it.
I think the continued success of guys like MMA, MC and DRG in the GSL thanks to the previous iteration will convince them that the Koreans requalifying through that program was actually a good thing, not a bad thing.
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The reason I disagree with this article is simply that otherwise the GSL code S would probably more often than not be Korean for 32 /32 players. While GOM should look to make more transparent / "objective" decisions I think it is very worthwhile for a couple non-Koreans to remain in the GSL just for the possibility of upsets. Even while these seeds may lead to a lower average win-rate, they have a lot of value for the overall development of e-sports since:
1. The GSL is the preeminent tournament and it's foreign audience is huge - it is good for us to have at least a few underdog foreign players to root for.
2. It gives foreigners a chance to play at the GSL level, and that could be very helpful in the creation of a future where a few foreigners can really play at that very very top Korean level.
3. Without living in Korea, it is effectively impossible to reach Code S from the bottom up (only Huk). It is not fair to expect a foreigner to spend multiple seasons of 2 months now to be recognized at that level.
4. Diversity brings excitement to foreign tournaments - players like TLO, incontrol, (in Korea) Boxer, and (sort of) White-Ra add a lot to tournaments even without as many consistent results as other players and this is why they are invariably invited to the top tournaments. Giving foreigner seeds serves a similar purpose. At the same time it is necessary to have dominant players to root against - and so these tournaments pay a lot of moneyto give players like MMA plane tickets.
5. If I don't have the money for the full tournament, I will stay up until 2:00 AM to watch the live stream if a foreigner is ever in the semi-final
However, I do think other measures like the ESV weekly are a good way to create (admittedly code A) seeds for Korean players. It might be reasonable to find a way to tie in 1 code S seed with some other tournament like that, but that might be too hard to arrange.
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Nice article. I thought the shots at IdrA were unnecessary/immature, but to each his own. Other than that, good read. I would love to see DeMu at a Korean event, he's pretty boss.
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I hope they go by merit, Polt deserves it and has shown he is capable of throwing-down with the best of em.
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Polt could win the GSL, he's proven that.
Stephano could scare the crap out of everyone and get far
Huk could win 2 or 3 rounds
Puma could win 2 or 3 rounds
Naniwa could win 1 or 2 rounds
a few others could win a match or two.
Maybe give each GSL personality an invite to use, and the one who invites the person who goes farthest gets bragging rights.
The goal should be to bring an outsider into the fold, the elite Code S fold.
But to not pick someone who could win it, or who could make a run in it, doesn't make any sense. The GSL doesn't need cannon fodder. It needs personalities and player that can stick.
That being said, any player could lose round 1 too. Its a tough league, that doesn't iterate very quickly.
Pick well GSL :D
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i said it once and i'll say it again. they will not give the code s seeds to korean players. the purpose is to attract foreigner audience. stop blabbering about polt.
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On February 28 2012 13:27 songohan wrote:
i said it once and i'll say it again. they will not give the code s seeds to korean players. the purpose is to attract foreigner audience. stop blabbering about polt.
I think this is true, despite blathering about Polt.
So, not Polt and not Stephano .
So Huk for sure and then it would be Naniwa..... but he's probably not going to get the benefit of the doubt, so the next guy in line is.......
Ret
They like zerg.
Huk and Ret
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On February 28 2012 13:27 songohan wrote:
i said it once and i'll say it again. they will not give the code s seeds to korean players. the purpose is to attract foreigner audience. stop blabbering about polt.
Nobody, foreigner or korean wants to watch people go to the GSL just to get wrecked in the first round by much superior competition ruining the integrity of the first round by having very lopsided group make ups.
GOM would have to be pretty thick to use a hard lined stance like "foreigners only" after what happened in season 1 of 2012.
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On February 28 2012 13:28 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 13:27 songohan wrote:
i said it once and i'll say it again. they will not give the code s seeds to korean players. the purpose is to attract foreigner audience. stop blabbering about polt. I think this is true, despite blathering about Polt. So, not Polt and not Stephano . So Huk for sure and then it would be Naniwa..... but he's probably not going to get the benefit of the doubt, so the next guy in line is....... Ret They like zerg. Huk and Ret
Agree, I think Naniwa is honestly a joke and not as good as everyone is making him out to be. Meh.
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EPT
