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On June 09 2010 14:00 Diminotoor wrote:
This is correct although the shortsightedness of people who follow this as a truth is nauseating. Basically it'd be like getting rid of the NBA and expecting Basketball to continue because ESPN was given sole broadcasting rights. If you can't see that simple analogy, there's no talking to you.
Understanding your analogy and agreeing with are not the same. I said previously that there are far too many analogies being used that just don't equate. I am not going to try to re-shape your inappropriate analogy or find any relevance in it. It is just easier to talk in facts and stay away from opinion.
I dig what you are saying, but I believe that legally owned intellectual property rights should prevail here. KeSPA nor Blizzard are our friends. they are slaves to money, this is manifested in indirect and direct actions. I prefer Blizzard to win out here for the following reasons:
They are a global entity and have the bank and ability to push the scene beyond Korean boundaries.
They are legally in the right here. They created the game and protected their interests via EULAs.
KeSPA had no legal authority to license something they did not _fully_ own. They are morally and legally in the lurch. They have the rights to the commentary their employees create when broadcasting, but the game-itself, the animations, the sounds, cut-scenes, and everything therein is owned by blizzard. They are no better than the bootleg vendors selling warez off the high street.
There is room for conversation from a moral, PR and general customer interests perspective to say that Blizzard could go about this in a different way. But that's not the conversation that KeSPA and Blizzard need to have. Gretech recognized this and did the sensible thing.
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On June 09 2010 14:08 antelope591 wrote:
If starcraft is a "player-created" franchise then why doesn't the community move on to another RTS which wasn't made by such an evil corporation such as Blizzard. Probably because Starcraft IS by far the greatest RTS ever made and nothing else even comes close....the community support has been huge that's true, but it has been that way because the game itself is so good. Why do you think games like C&C don't last one year, much less 12? Because they suck
While I will admit that Starcraft is a good game, what makes it a great eSport is the players, not the game itself. When you watch Flash vs. JD, are you sitting there watching the Marines and Lurkers or what each player does with them? Starcraft by itself is simply a suitable platform on which to create a spectator sport.
Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of people have actually moved onto other games. Outside of Korea, Starcraft is actually pretty small despite its respected name.
On June 09 2010 14:16 riboflavin wrote:
They are a global entity and have the bank and ability to push the scene beyond Korean boundaries.
Samsung alone dwarfs Blizzard in just about every field from finances to global influence...
On June 09 2010 14:16 riboflavin wrote:
They are legally in the right here. They created the game and protected their interests via EULAs.
IP laws aren't the same across the globe.
On June 09 2010 14:16 riboflavin wrote:
KeSPA had no legal authority to license something they did not _fully_ own. They are morally and legally in the lurch. They have the rights to the commentary their employees create when broadcasting, but the game-itself, the animations, the sounds, cut-scenes, and everything therein is owned by blizzard. They are no better than the bootleg vendors selling warez off the high street.
Technically they didn't sell the license to broadcast Starcraft. They sold the license to broadcast the players under contract to KeSPA playing. In Korea, you can broadcast Starcraft as long as you buy a legitimate copy of it. This was never the issue in the KeSPA vs. OGN/MBC thing.
On June 09 2010 14:16 riboflavin wrote:
There is room for conversation from a moral, PR and general customer interests perspective to say that Blizzard could go about this in a different way. But that's not the conversation that KeSPA and Blizzard need to have. Gretech recognized this and did the sensible thing.
Gretech had nothing to lose and everything to gain whereas KeSPA had nothing to gain and everything to lose. Are you seriously comparing the two as if they were coming from the same situation?
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Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 09 2010 14:08 antelope591 wrote:
If starcraft is a "player-created" franchise then why doesn't the community move on to another RTS which wasn't made by such an evil corporation such as Blizzard. Probably because Starcraft IS by far the greatest RTS ever made and nothing else even comes close....the community support has been huge that's true, but it has been that way because the game itself is so good.
If everyone followed this retarded logic, the world of sports wouldn't exist and I have my doubts that the world as it stands would exist. If something is imbalanced, unjust, or just plain old "wrong", you don't jump ship, you fix the problem so you can preserve something that you felt worked. Once again, I restate that BOTH PARTIES ARE EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS and its just very unfortunate that our futures hinge on what these two morons decide.
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On June 09 2010 14:17 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 14:08 antelope591 wrote:
If starcraft is a "player-created" franchise then why doesn't the community move on to another RTS which wasn't made by such an evil corporation such as Blizzard. Probably because Starcraft IS by far the greatest RTS ever made and nothing else even comes close....the community support has been huge that's true, but it has been that way because the game itself is so good. Why do you think games like C&C don't last one year, much less 12? Because they suck While I will admit that Starcraft is a good game, what makes it a great eSport is the players, not the game itself. When you watch Flash vs. JD, are you sitting there watching the Marines and Lurkers or what each player does with them? Starcraft by itself is simply a suitable platform on which to create a spectator sport. Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of people have actually moved onto other games. Outside of Korea, Starcraft is actually pretty small despite its respected name.
The argument that the players make the game doesn't work for me in this case for the simple fact that Blizzard is the ONLY company who's ever made RTS which can be played at an "esport" level. You have to ask, why did all the pros choose Starcraft or on a lesser scale Warcraft 3 over CoH or C&C? When Blizz has no competition at all in their field can u blame them for wanting a better piece of the pie?
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On June 09 2010 13:28 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 13:18 Ighox wrote:
But if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and it was enforced, do you think there still would be a KeSPA and would the contracts still be valid? Do you even think the people that make up KeSPA would want to do nothing?
The way I see it if KeSPA refuses to negotiate with Gretech they are just counting on taking it to korean court and winning, that's like their only chance other than negotiating and if the case is lost they are permanently fucked so I'd assume KeSPA as an organization would just be dissolved and the teams/sponsors eventually getting involved with Gretech because they would still want money.
(?) I think you're forgetting who KeSPA actually is. KeSPA is comprised of the progaming teams themselves and the corporations that sponsor them. So yes, they would continue to exist even if they weren't allowed to operate the leagues anymore and the contracts in question would still be valid since they are probably directly with the sponsoring corporations and not contingent on whether or not KeSPA leagues actually exist. If the teams and sponsors had any desire at all to be involved with Gretech, this would not even be an issue because that would mean KeSPA wants to be involved with Gretech. Right now, the issue is that the teams and sponsors (AKA: KeSPA) want control of their league and broadcasting rights to their players playing. Blizzard doesn't want the teams and sponsors to control the leagues or to have any rights to the content created by the players under contract with the said teams as well as control over all the players' contracts. This is what created the friction in the first place.
I realize who they are, but I mean, if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and the contracts for the teams prevented the teams from being in leagues that has connections to Gretech (any future league), why would they then still be KeSPA or why would KeSPA still feel those contracts were awesome and not just agree to nuke those contracts? Wouldn't that be the better option for every entity involved in KeSPA ?
When it really comes down to it and at the point they can't broadcast anymore, when they've lost, I don't really see how they could continue to exist and still consider their contracts valid?
I think it just comes down to ego's though, but when it comes down to it I think KeSPA would choose Gretech rather than death, it's just that they think they have a reasonable fighting chance right now and might still get the full IP rights.
(I pretty much see that as impossible though at this point but I'm not a lawyer.)
And I gotta say, all this shit is pretty confusing, fucking politics 
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On June 09 2010 11:13 MeruFM wrote:I wanted to post something like that but you said it way better than I could. Something to add though. The banning of public broadcasting of their game (assuming they do use that argument) also means that youtube will most likely pull all blizzard game videos not endorsed by Blizzard. Amateur casting will also be quite difficult as well. There's so many things that could go wrong here and the only way it can be fixed is by creating new contracts/EULAs that specifically state differences between commercial and non-commercial broadcasting. Also lots of foresight will be required since we really have no idea how these restrictions could conflict with future interest both for Blizzard and for consumers.
you bring up a very interesting point. if blizzard controlled kespa, would violetak, nevake and jon747 vids all be taken down due to copyright infringement?
if they ever did that.......
the rage...
im worried.
i enjoy the korean scene immensely.
dont take thsi away from the fans!!! blizzard, stop kowtowing to activision and give in for the fans!
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Well actually It has everything to do with SC2 and not SC, why is Blizzard so hard in the negotiations? because they want total control of SC2, they care about the milk cow that is SC? not, they care about the "star" they have been developing : SC2, I presume Blizzard is sure about SC2 being a game that could be compared in short time with SC and replace it right there. For me, Blizzard should be focusing all the resources making a better game and interface, and not trying to get the control in the only country that has e-sports (without any care of Blizzard ), because right now SC2 for the casual gamer and watcher, is boring as hell.
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On June 09 2010 14:23 Ighox wrote:
I realize who they are, but I mean, if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and the contracts for the teams prevented the teams from being in leagues that has connections to Gretech (any future league), why would they then still be KeSPA or why would KeSPA still feel those contracts were awesome and not just agree to nuke those contracts? Wouldn't that be the better option for every entity involved in KeSPA ?
Why would they logically help the corporation that just destroyed their business when they have nothing to gain from it? Not having players and teams participate would bring Gretech to their knees if they tried to create a Brood War league or tournament.
On June 09 2010 14:23 Ighox wrote:
When it really comes down to it and at the point they can't broadcast anymore, when they've lost, I don't really see how they could continue to exist and still consider their contracts valid?
The players aren't contracted to the entity known as KeSPA. They are individually under contract to the respecting corporations that own the pro-gaming teams. Even if KeSPA was to dissolve, these corporations would still continue to exist so the contracts would still be valid. In the event that KeSPA did end up dissolving over this, I highly doubt these corporations would suddenly be cooperative to the side that just came in and stole their business.
On June 09 2010 14:23 Ighox wrote:I think it just comes down to ego's though, but when it comes down to it I think KeSPA would choose Gretech rather than death, it's just that they think they have a reasonable fighting chance right now and might still get the full IP rights. (I pretty much see that as impossible though at this point but I'm not a lawyer.) And I gotta say, all this shit is pretty confusing, fucking politics
In the end, it all comes down to the issue of money. Each of the KeSPA corporations are successful companies in their own right and can afford not to be involved in eSports if it isn't profitable or if it becomes too much of a hassle. Obviously we don't know the details between Gretech and KeSPA in terms of demands, but since Gretech pretty much replaces Blizzard in the negotiations, I would imagine their demands would not be far off from what Blizzard was demanding when they were negotiating directly with KeSPA. We're pretty much talking all-access, total control here. Blizzard is pretty much asking these companies to pay for everything while in the end owning nothing that grows out of the money they risked by investing. That's just not a smart investment no matter how you look at it...
If KeSPA and Blizzard/Gretech cannot reach an agreement here and if for some reason, the courts side with Blizzard/Gretech (which would surprise me) then that will pretty much be the end of Brood War and you'll hear celebration over at Blizzard HQ.
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Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird  and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose?
Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Corporations think with there wallet, not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
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On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote:Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having Goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose? Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Business think with there wallet not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
If you look at KeSPA's options, it makes sense. If KeSPA agrees to a deal, they essentially lose the rights to everything they've created through their investment of resources. If they don't agree to a deal, they will either lose everything they created or they have a chance of keeping everything just as it is right now with themselves in control of their investment. Who here wouldn't take the second option in this case?
While I wouldn't go so far as to say that KeSPA can control the courts, the corporations that comprise KeSPA certainly do have a measurable amount of political influence, much more so than Gretech and Blizzard. Although I don't discount this as a factor in their decision, I think it's probably a lot more about the "Everything to lose and nothing to gain." aspect that's keeping them from agreeing to anything. If Blizzard/Gretech just asked for some of the money and didn't butt themselves into controlling contracts, content, etc. I don't think there'd be much of an issue here.
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On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote:Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose? Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Corporations think with there wallet, not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
Or its simply that GOM's (aka proxy Blizzard's) demands are still unreasonable, like wanting full control over contracts, the ability to shut down leagues as they wish, auditing all of KeSPA's finances, having the ability to demand players participate in international leagues over regular leagues, etc, that the sponsors feel that they are better off going to court over this (and in the worst case not sponsoring altogether) instead of investing money and not being able to be in charge of what is done with it.
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United States758 Posts
I remember when I used to be excited for Starcraft 2. All I think about now is how much it's going to cost me and how much it's ruining SC:BW. I doubt I'll even buy the game at this point, I can remember the last good thought I had regarding Blizzard.
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this is a huge nightmare of a shit storm that's never going to stop pissing people off
either way no1 is going to be happy
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On June 09 2010 14:48 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote:Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having Goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose? Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Business think with there wallet not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face. If you look at KeSPA's options, it makes sense. If KeSPA agrees to a deal, they essentially lose the rights to everything they've created through their investment of resources. If they don't agree to a deal, they will either lose everything they created or they have a chance of keeping everything just as it is right now with themselves in control of their investment. Who here wouldn't take the second option in this case? While I wouldn't go so far as to say that KeSPA can control the courts, the corporations that comprise KeSPA certainly do have a measurable amount of political influence, much more so than Gretech and Blizzard. Although I don't discount this as a factor in their decision, I think it's probably a lot more about the "Everything to lose and nothing to gain." aspect that's keeping them from agreeing to anything. If Blizzard/Gretech just asked for some of the money and didn't butt themselves into controlling contracts, content, etc. I don't think there'd be much of an issue here.
No, going to court is a HUGE risk for kespa IMHO. If they just strike a deal with GOM. They survive and live to fight another day. Sure it maybe in a diminished capacity, but In 3 years time if they made nice with blizzard. Maybe they get another shot at the broadcasting rights. If they decide to go all the way with this and lose. They are never going to get a deal done again with Blizzard or GOM.
This shit makes no sense from a business stand point as far as I can tell. The safe thing for Kespa to do would be to sign with GOM and reevaluate after 3 years.
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On June 09 2010 14:32 JinMaikeul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 14:23 Ighox wrote:
I realize who they are, but I mean, if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and the contracts for the teams prevented the teams from being in leagues that has connections to Gretech (any future league), why would they then still be KeSPA or why would KeSPA still feel those contracts were awesome and not just agree to nuke those contracts? Wouldn't that be the better option for every entity involved in KeSPA ? Why would they logically help the corporation that just destroyed their business when they have nothing to gain from it? Not having players and teams participate would bring Gretech to their knees if they tried to create a Brood War league or tournament.
Because there's still a lot of money involved and to say no to that would simply be bad business.
The players aren't contracted to the entity known as KeSPA. They are individually under contract to the respecting corporations that own the pro-gaming teams. Even if KeSPA was to dissolve, these corporations would still continue to exist so the contracts would still be valid. In the event that KeSPA did end up dissolving over this, I highly doubt these corporations would suddenly be cooperative to the side that just came in and stole their business.
Morally, yes I agree why would they do that, but the corporations that owns the teams doesn't have teams just because it's fun, "for the fans" or whatever, they do it for money, advertising, etc. and they would still achieve that with Gretech, they just wouldn't have the ability to dictate the terms all the time but it would still be 'free money'.
So either get that with Gretech or lose out on all of it?
I don't know, it just seems like your statements are too much about moral when everything in this case pretty much only boils down to money.
(yes, KeSPA says they do it for the fans, and blizzard says they feel violated or whatever, but anyone can see that it's just about money.)
And I don't see that many people in the real world turning down money over a "moral issue", and especially not the MAJOR corporations.
I think that both are 'evil', coming to a conclusion about the lesser of the two evils would be hard because both have several positive possible outcomes and several negative possible outcomes. But I don't think it will matter much who wins, I think the market for esports in korea is big enough to continue without KeSPA at the reins.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote:Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose? Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Corporations think with there wallet, not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
It could be simply that it's not worth being a part of ESPORTS involvement under blizzard/GOM conditions.
Keeping in mind Kespa and it's organisations pay for pretty much 100% of all infrastructure that that underpins ESPORTS in Korea. All the player's salaries, and their practice houses: Kespa companies, all the broadcasts and the venues to hold proleague/Starleagues: Kespa or Kespa companies, all the infrastructure to do progamer licensing, courage, all the stuff going in the background to make proleague work: Kespa.
If I was Kespa, and Blizzard/GOM suddenly wanted almost full control of the ESPORTS scene in Korea and wanted me to continue to pay for everything. Then I wouldn't be dignifying their 'offer' with a response either.
While what they are doing might not be in the best interests of current fans as both sides are claiming. It is pretty unrealistic for Kespa to bow to these demands, in this case it would be logical for Kespa to choose death as an entity over meeting these demands, that way it's constituent organisations aren't continuing to pay for for an ESPORTS scene they have no control over afterwards.
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Oh, look, the grace period ends just in time to send all the unpaid B-team kids back to school. *Ba-dum-TISH!*
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On June 09 2010 15:13 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote:Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose? Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Corporations think with there wallet, not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face. It could be simply that it's not worth being a part of ESPORTS involvement under blizzard/GOM conditions. Keeping in mind Kespa and it's organisations pay for pretty much 100% of all infrastructure that that underpins ESPORTS in Korea. All the player's salaries, and their practice houses: Kespa companies, all the broadcasts and the venues to hold proleague/Starleagues: Kespa or Kespa companies, all the infrastructure to do progamer licensing, courage, all the stuff going in the background to make proleague work: Kespa. If I was Kespa, and Blizzard/GOM suddenly wanted almost full control of the ESPORTS scene in Korea and wanted me to continue to pay for everything. Then I wouldn't be dignifying their 'offer' with a response either. While what they are doing might not be in the best interests of current fans as both sides are claiming. It is pretty unrealistic for Kespa to bow to these demands, in this case it would be logical for Kespa to choose death as an entity over meeting these demands, that way it's constituent organisations aren't continuing to pay for for an ESPORTS scene they have no control over afterwards.
Yeah i guess that could be true, but I find it pretty hard to believe that Blizzard or GOMs demands would be so large that they leave no room for profit for Kespa.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On June 09 2010 15:21 InToTheWannaB wrote:
Yeah i guess that could be true, but I find it pretty hard to believe that Blizzard or GOMs demands would be so large that they leave no room for profit for Kespa.
Ordinarily I'd agree, but this smacks of Blizzard just wanting to hijack a competitive ESPORTS scene they can use as a platform for sc2 esports. I doubt they actually care whether or not BW dies.
Why bother building a scene from scratch when you can try to just take over an existing scene? Especially since the collateral damage of this move is basically irrelevant to you, whether or not BW dies is hardly going to affect Activision Blizzards bottom line.
The main reason why these 'negotiations' are in deadlock imo is just that they are working at cross purposes, and neither particularly need the other for their purposes.
Blizzard wants control of the ESPORTS scene, whether or not SC:BW survives this transition is irrelevant to them, and consequently whether or not Kespa survives this transition is also irrelevant to them so long as they end up with control.
Kespa also wants control of the ESPORTS scene, since they are basically paying for it. They just want Blizzard to GTFO, they are probably willing to pay a little for Blizzard to go away (eg licensing fees), but given Blizzard probably cares little for the money and only wants the control which Kespa will be unwilling to give up, I don't see this going well without court involvement over exactly how far Blizzard's IP rights extend.
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On June 09 2010 15:13 professorjoak wrote:
Oh, look, the grace period ends just in time to send all the unpaid B-team kids back to school. *Ba-dum-TISH!*
I know you aren't serious but guess what, they don't want to go back? It's not like they get forced to become b-teamers .
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EPT
